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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: kiwi on Tuesday 25 July 06 03:09 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for :
Michael Harloe, born Ireland, abt 1827, occupation (usually) Shipwright, married.
Michael turned up on the 1881 returns as Harlow, and in the Toxteth Park Workhouse, birth date given as 1820. He married Ann Chamberlain about 1861, took on three of her sons and had a two sons John and Charles by her. I haven't found Ann or any of the sons in 1881, they don't seem to be in the Workhouse with him.
The 1871 census shows them all living together in Byles Street, Liverpool.
Was certainly a tough old life!
Regards,
kiwi
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Cor Blimey - went looking for their ages:--
1871 Census index has (clearly) 45 yr old Michael HARLOE as age 65 - and his stepsons as CHANBERTON instead of CHAMBERLAIN, and his sons as HARLEE!!
Plus, 2 of the Stepsons are both enumerated as Edward :P
1871
Annie HARLOE 50 b Chichester Sussex
Edward CHAMBERLAIN 24 b Liverpool a Fishmonger
Edward CHAMBERLAIN 13
William CHAMBERLAIN 11
Charles HARLOE 9
John HARLOE 6
I can't see him on 1891 - Ann is in Toxteth Park living with son Edward S CHAMBERLAIN age 32 and listed as a Widow living on her own means.
Given this, and given Michael was in Toxteth park in all Census 1841 to 1881, and his circumstances in 1881 - have you investigated the death in FREEBMD:
Deaths Mar Qtr 1882 Ref: 8b 155
Micahel HARLOW age 60
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly,
Well done that girl! Do you have an address for the 1891 sighting of Annie?
The only other time I have found any mention of Michael is in 1871, do you have any of the other results for 1841 to 1871?
I think your suggestion of the death in 1882 is highly likely, will investigate further, goodness knows where Annie was in 1881, somewhere in Liverpool I'd have thought, given as you say they seemed to be always there! Probably under some weird spelling, I hadn't thought of Harlee!!Will search some more with different spellings.
I always thought a shipwright would have been in work in a place like Liverpool, but it seems not, there were at least three others in the Workhouse at that time. Would have been a tough life at the best of times.
Thank you so much for your input,
Regards,
kiwi
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Kia Ora Kiwi ;D
I'LL gather the other Census and write them up for you - he's quite visible on all of them - do you need Annie in past Censii also?
Annie was as 116 Warwick St Toxteth park in 1891 from memory - and I checked the address in 1881, but another family was living there. What was the number of the Byles street address in 1871 - was it 3, I'll check that one too - but I did have a good look for her and the boys in 1881 but no luck!
Cheers
AMBLY
Palmerston North ;D
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Hi again Ambly,
That was fast!! The 1871 has them at 23 Byles Street, and the street directories shows them still there in '72 and '73, things took a down turn sometime between then and the 1881 obviously.
Am not so concerned with Annie, and not so easy to find either I'd have thought as it appears Michael is a second husband for her. I would have to get their marriage cert and hope her maiden name was recorded as a bonus!
Thanks for all your help.
kiwi
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Hi Kiwi
Here is - I hope! - Michael in 1841, 1851 and 1861
1841 - Toxteth Park , Liverpool , Lancashire
Ref: :HO107/567/5 Folio:56 Page:17
RD: West Derby , Sub-RDToxteth Park
Brighton Street
John HARLOE 40, Customes (sic)
Margaret " 40
Charles " 17, Ship Wright
Michael " 14
Catherine " 8
All Irish born
1851 - Toxteth Park Lancashire
Ecclesiastical parish:St John the Baptist
Ref: :HO107/2188 Folio:285 Page:39
RD: West Derby , Sub-RDToxteth Park
2 North Street
Head: John HARLOE 52, Weigher in Customs, b Ireland
Wife: Margaret HARLOE 50, b Ireland
Son: Michael HARLOE 24, unm, Ship Carpenter, b Ireland
Granddau: Margaret HARLOE 2, b Toxteth Park
Servant: Emma NICOL, 17, unm, b Toxteth Park
1861 - Toxteth Park Liverpool Lancashire
Ecclesiastical parish:St Matthew
Ref :RG9/2699 Folio:132 Page:38
RD: West Derby , Sub-RDToxteth Park
82 House
Head: Ann FREVENEN widow 65, Formerly Servant, b Oswestry? Shropshire
Dau: Margaret Ann FREVENEN unm, 29, Milliner & .Bonnet maker, b Liverpool Lanc
Dau: Elizabeth TODNER marr 23, Dressmaker, b Liverpool Lanc
Grandson: John Frevenen TODNER 1 mont, b Liverpool Lanc
Boarder: Michael HARLOE, unm 31, Ships Carpenter b Liverpool
Boarder: David MARQUIS, widower, 49, Millwright b Lancashire
The landlady possibly gave his 1861 details and gave age and birthplace incorrectly.
1891 & 1901 coming up for Ann.....
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1891 - Toxteth Park Liverpool Lancashire
Ecclesiastical parish:St Philemon
Ref: RG12/2927 Folio 33 page 2
RD: Toxteth Park , Sub-RDToxteth Park
112 Upper Warwick Street
Head: Ann HARLOE, 69, Widow, Living on Own means, b Chichester Sussex
Son: Edward S CHAMBERLAIN 32, unm, Pilot, b Liverpool Lanc.
And best for last :
1901 - Toxteth Park Lancashire
Ecclesiastical parish:St Philemon
Ref: RG13/3434 Folio 32, page 3
RD: Toxteth Park , Sub-RDToxteth Park
112 Upper Warwick Street
Head: Edward Septimus CHAMBERLAIN 42, unm, Pilot Seas (worker), b Liverpool Lancashire
Mother: Ann Georgina HARLOE 80, widow, b Chichester Sussex
Useful link?
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/leaflets/poorlaw.html
http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/history/toxteth%20workhouse.htm
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thank you so much Ambly, you have given me lots to think about. On the surface of it, it looks as though Michael was sick and the poor house was acting as a hospital, which would tie in with a death in 1882.
I'm sure you are right about the 1861, best guess on someones part, having spent the greater part of his life in Liverpool he probably sounded like a Liverpudlian!
Will now go and mull over all you have given me, your help has been much appreciated.
Regards,
kiwi
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Hi Kiwi
Yeah, Plenty to keep you going for a bit - seems like an interesting lot ;D
Sorry can't help myself !
Here is Ann in the 1851 and 1861 - easily found as it turned out!
I guess this may explain, if Michael wasn't himself awfully well off, how Ann may have been living on her own means in 1891 - family money perhaps?
1851 - Chichester St Bartholomew, Sussex
Ref :HO107/1653 Folio:146 Page:12
RD :Chichester Sub-RD :Sutton
West Gate
Head: William NORMAN 59, Tanner employing 18 Labourers, b Devon Buckland Brewer?
Wife: Catherine NORMAN 60, b Devon Barnstaple
Dau: Catherine NORMAN, 36 unm, b Chichester Sussex
Dau: Mary Ann E NORMAN 26, unm, b Chichester Sussex
Dau - Visitor: Ann G CHAMBERLIN 30, marr, Husband at Sea, b Chichester
Grandson: Norman CHAMBERLIN 9 b Stepney Middlesex
Grandau: Ann CHAMBERLIN 2 b Stepney Middlesex
Grandson:William Henry CHAMBERLIN 2 months, b Chichester
Servant: Sally SHEPHERD unm 17, House Servant, b Hartin Sussex
1861 - Toxteth Park Lancashire
Ecclesiastical parish:St Paul
Ref :RG9/2706 Folio:116 Page:48
RD West Derby Sub-RD Toxteth Park
12 Collins Street
Head: Ann CHAMBERLAIN 39 widow , b Chichester Sussex
Son: Norman CHAMBERLAIN 19, unm, Letter Carrier Post Office, b London
Son: Edwin H CHAMBERLAIN, 7 Scholar, b Liverpool
Son: Septimus E CHAMBERLAIN 2, b Liverpool
Son: William C CHAMBERLAIN 3 months b Liverpool]
Lodger: Thomas SEDDELEY, unm, 35, Druggist, b Cheshire
Good luck
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hah!!
Found her in 1881 - living with her son Edwin CHAMBERLAIN and his wife Eliza E CHAMBERLAIN in West Derby .....
Can you access this via LDS site? If not give a yell!
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=census/search_census.asp
Mum has been indexed as HARLVE!! And looking at the actual, it does look like that but also could be (is?) a messily written HARLOE where the top of the "o" has not been closed off - this enumerator has done that on a few "Do" (ditto) and "a"s also.
Cheers ;D
AMBLY
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Now how impressive is that! :D
Thank you.
It explains the two Edwards in 1871, turns out one is an Edwin, much more sensible!
I think you must be right about the money , the Harloes weren't well off in the grand scheme of things but they don't appear to have been that poor either, their father John worked as a Customs Officer all his life from what I can see. I was a bit stunned when I found Michael in the workhouse in 1881, but the link you gave me explained things a bit better, especially when he seems to have died the next year.
I found Ann's death on the FreeBMD in 1902
All Ann's previous children too, an unexpected surprise, will look for her marriage on FreeBMD, maybe with the maiden name of Norman.
Now looks as though I will have to brave the Irish system to find John Harloe somewhere in Ireland born abt 1799.
I can't thank you enough Ambly, you have been terrific.
Regards,
kiwi
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Hi Kiwi
I know ! the thought of having to tackle Irish rersearch - I've few there too all from the same place "Somewhere" !! :P My dear Grandad was Liverpool Irish stock himself and fond of an Irish joke, he started them all off the same, and they all had a Murphy in them (if there wasn't a Murphy in the the original version, he popped one in) one of them was about Murphy who owned a spaghetti farm 2 inches wide and 20 miles long............. ;D
But I digress ...........I noticed the brother Charles HARLOE on the Census too for 1851 & 1861. In one of them it states he was from Dublin. Do you want these 2?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Good morning Ambly,
Yes please I would like the 1851 for Charles, I have him in 1861, married with wife and child in Toxteth.
Haven't been able to pin point Charles's death yet, sometime between 1861 and 1871/74. He is on his son John's wedding cert in 1874 as a shipwright, however that may not mean he was still alive then, simply that John did not read the question as being asked if he was alive, merely asking for his occupation, if you get my drift.
I can't find Charles anywhere on the 1871 census. Family history doesn't seem to think he returned to Ireland in his old age. I think the freebmd hasn't got him transcribed as yet.
Dublin ? now that might be a starting point, only to find the name Harloe is like Smith I expect ;D
Regards,
kiwi
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Hi Kiwi
1851 - Toxteth Park ; Lancashire
Eccl'l parish: St John the Baptist
RD : West Derby Sub-RD: Toxteth Park
Ref: Class: HO107; Piece: 2188; Folio: 281; Page: 31
1 Catherine Street
Head: Charles HARLOE 27 Carpenter b Ireland
Wife: Fanny HARLOE 27 b Ireland
Son: John HARLOE 1, b Liverpool Lanc
This Census makes Fanny more of an age with her husband - as opposed to the 1861 where she is clearly enumerated as age 57 ( born Belfast) to his 36 (born Dublin)
In 1871, I'm sure this is Fanny, a widow living in Toxteth Park with John, on the same road as they were on in 1861, but in a different house.
1871 - Toxteth Park Lancashire
Eccl'l parish: St John the Baptist
REF: Class: RG10; Piece: 3800; Folio: 13; Page: 20
RD : West Derby Sub-RD: Toxteth Park
43 Essex Street
Head: Fanny HARLOW age 47, widow, Dressmaker b Belfast Ireland
Son: John HARLOW age 21, single, Moulder, b Liverpool Lanc
FREEBMD has a death 1892 that fits this younger Fanny.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly,
You are quite right, a slip up with the enumerator regarding the ages, I think, mind you I sometimes feel an additional 20years older at times ;D!
Thank you for all your help, it has been marvelous, I shall now enter data furiously and ponder the next step regarding Ireland :-\
Regards,
kiwi
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Ambly
P.S.
Forgot to add, you were right about Fanny's death date, family in Liverpool knew about her (and her son John) from their parents and grandparents talk when they were small, I have a photo of her gravestone. :)
kiwi
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Thank you.
kiwi.
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Hi Kiwi
I see that this correspondence is 12 months old & this is probably of no use to you.
I believe we have been in contact previously - probably about the same thing.
I don't know if I have sent you this info re Ann Chamberlin - Harlow -
Ann Georgiana Norman was born c 1821 Chichester, West Sussex - Daughter of William & Catherine Norman.
Married Denham Chamberlin 28/12/1841 - Saint Bartholomew - Chichester - Sussex - England.
Regards
Grahame
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Hi Grahame,
Yes we have corresponded before on this subject, I will contact you privately.
Best Regards,
kiwi
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Hi Kiwi
Thanks - looking forward to it
Regards
Grahame
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Hi KIwi,
I have just run around the corner, cos Upper Warwick St. is the street behind where I live :o
I have taken a photo of 112 for you. I also took 116 just incase you meant that number too. There is a Warwick St as well as an Upper Warwick St. 116 Warwick St., isn't there, I just checked. :(
If you pm me your email addy I will send them to you. ;D
Also, for anyone with rellies that once lived in Toxteth Park, this is a brilliant website. It has many photographs of the old streets and has some census records too.
http://www.toxteth.net/index.htm
Red :D
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Hi Red,
Wow, that's really kind of you, will send you my email address asap.
Kiwi
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Hi Kiwi,
glad you like the photo's. Got them on a sunny day!!
I havn't got anyone from NZ that I know of yet. But, will get intouch if I do.
If I can help further, give me a shout. ;D
Red :)