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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: biddybarracks on Saturday 22 July 06 19:59 BST (UK)
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Can anyone tell me where I could post an old photograph of a portrait to find out whether anyone can identify the subject for me? I'm not sure what country the painting originates from but I am thinking that there is a Spanish connection because the back of the photo has the stamp of the photographer's (the only part that I can decipher is Madrid). I'd appreciate any help going.
(p.s. I've taken the liberty of attaching the photo and the stamp on the back).
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I can't make out a date.
Obviously this person is royal/aristocratic. The painting doesn't seem Spanish to me though :-\ Could it be a photograph of a painting of a princess/aristo from another country who 'married in'. It was fairly common to send portraits - though usually fairly small - so that the intended spouse could see his/her intended.
Have you tried googling on the Spanish Kings and Queen +images.
Also a detailed look at the regalia and the various items on the wall behind might give a clue. Nothing is ever put in by accident.
Gadget
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Thanks for the suggestion, Gadget. I'll try googling that right now!
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I couldn't find anything definite when I searched the images.
The dress style looks early Victorian to me - it reminds me of the dress style that young Queen Victoria wore. This suggests 1837- 1850 :-\
I'm not sure of the Spanish Ks & Qs as I said before but again it will be available with a search.
Gadget
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Fernando V11 died 1833. After this there was a power struggle (post Peninsular wars and 'loss of Empire'/world status) between his brother Prince Don Carlos and his daughter Queen Isabel 11. So it could be Isabel 11 :-\
http://www.spanamwar.com/Spanishview.htm
also
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Spain
Gadget
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I've just checked some different portraits of Isabella II and none of them look like the woman that I have. HELP!
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I've played around with the photgrapher's stamp but I can only make out Ant_g____. Could this possibly be Antigua? But that was a British colony?
I can't see Madrid - where is it on the stamp?
Gadget
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That crown behind her looks British - could it be a poor image of Victoria?
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Have a look here:
http://tinyurl.com/zbtfc
lots of pictures of her - one in 1844 very like your lady!
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It isn't very clear in the picture and I can't find any images on the web at the moment, but what crown is that in the background? It's shape reminds me of the Imperial State Crown (not saying it is, just that it resembles it.)
From what I have been able to find so far, the regalia of Spain does not amount to much. The one picture of a crown that I have found, does not look like the shape you see here. ???
http://homepage.mac.com/crowns/e/avreg.html
Nell
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I thought that Nell - see above. I'm thinking it might be a poor portrait of Victoria. Antigua is the best I can make out.
Gadget
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Right, my best guess:
A (poor - or accurate ;) ) portrait of Queen Victoria circa 1844. Photographed by an Antiguan photographer later for possible the Governor's Residence there or from a portrait that hung there.
Gadget
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One slight problem - she's not wearing a wedding ring.
Nell
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Nell
You beat me to it by seconds!!! ;)
Carol
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But did she? When did they marry - circa 1842 ??? i'll check
I've got some early images on a google Q Vic images search.
Gadget
Married 1840 - see this:
http://www.victorianstation.com/queen.html
so maybe portrait circa 1840 ???
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Her first child was born in 1840! I think she married in
January February 1840. She certainly wore a ring in later portraits. Can't see why she wouldn't have started with one.
Nell
Sorry Gadget - too many cooks!
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I agree about the crown, it doesn't look like the Spanish one (that I've been able to find in pictures on the net). I've started working the "medals" angle. Would anyone recognize which orders they belong to?
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Biddyb - I don't think we think it is Spanish - I think we think it's British
Not sure but it is most likely an early portrait of Queen Victoria?
Gadget
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If it is Victoria, it isn't her typical look (if you know what I mean). I've been trying to find out what medals she's wearing but have found nothing, yet.
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But who else would have the Imperial State Crown behind her ??? It's worth looking on those picture links of her that I posted.
She really wasn't a beauty (no chin and a fleshy face) and was often stylised in portraits.
However, I think you have enough links to continue your investigation for a while
Gadget
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One of the early portraits of her, by Wilkie, has her wearing the same three pearl drop brooch that is in your photo - and in the same place.
Gadget
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I am almost convinced that the portrait could be of Queen Victoria. To confirm whether or not it is, I got the idea of emailing the photo to the Victoria and Albert museum. Hopefully, they will be able to give me an affirmative answer. I'll let everyone know. Thanks for all the help. I would never have considered it being Victoria if it had not been suggested.
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Would queen Victoria have worn a tricoloured sash like the one in the painting? All the portraits I've found by Googling suggest that the sash is a solid colour.
If we could ID the star pendant at the bottom of the sash it would help. The V&A was a good idea biddybarracks :)
Prue
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She might well have before her coronation Prue - and there is the criown - only monarchs etc.
Interestingly no one spotted a very large V1 on the stamp :-\
Gadget
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Also....in 1840-ish, Queen Vic was quite a slim, pretty thing - if the portrait dates from this time, I don't think it's her. (Yes, I know - they might have flattered her!)
See this pic I found:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0ns/
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Ididn't say it was a good likeness - she didn't have a chin!
Here's a star:
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We have a crown -identified as Imperial State Crown
We have the triple pearl drop brooch
We have the star
Is the chair behind an impression of King Edward the Confessor's throne?
Could it be just an unflattering painting of her by an unknown artist using a model?
The crown would only appear if it was the Queen. No sceptre mind - I've seen some with that in.
Gadget
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Hmmm...still not convinced - but willing to be swayed ;)
What I would like is a better quality scan of the photo. is that possible, biddybarracks? and perhaps of the stamp, too?
I don't think that's the Imperial State Crown. It's similar, but the one in the painting (it's very difficult to see it) appears to have 6 of those strut things that come from the top of the crown down the sides to the base, and the ISC has only four. Comparison attached...
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The one you show Prue was remodelled for Elizabeth 11 and checked that Imperial State Crown was designed for George V - not sure what the crown would have been called before that.
I don't think it is a good portrait. As I said, it was possibly painted at a distance with a stand in model. Paintings rarely have the accuracy of photographs.
I think it's best to wait to hear from the V & A.
Gadget
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I've removed the image of Victoria's crown in case of copyright issues.
However, I've searched through more or less every country's crowns and the only other that is similar to the one in the picture is that of the Netherlands. It does have 6 bars. Is this regalia anything like - possibly
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/nl/thumb/f/f6/Koningin_Beatrix.jpg/399px-Koningin_Beatrix.jpg
so maybe Victoria, maybe House of Orange :-\
Gadget
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Here is the closeup and enhancement of the crown in the portrait. I hope this helps.
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Here is a closeup of the medals in the portrait. By the way, did anyone notice the medal worn closest to her hip? Is it topped with a crown? Anyone know which order this medal represents?
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Well here's my penny's worth,it looks like the Spanish Star and the ribbon across her dress looks typically Spanish.
Derek.
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Hi Biddyb
This has really got us intrigued. I've certainly increased my knowledge of royal crowns :)
Here's a photo link of the Dutch crown - it's similar to yours, but.........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Dutch_crown.jpg
Gadget
PS apparently the Spanish crown was a tiered crown like the Pope's
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Hello
There is a similarity in the pendant on the front of the dress between the mystery woman and Queen Victoria's mother, Princess Victoria of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld.
I dont think this is Queen Victoria but perhaps could be someone from her mothers family. Possibly a wedding/engagement portrait?
acceber
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I must check out Queen Victoria's mother. However, check out this closeup of the brooch. There is a similarity with the one her mother had but there are some obvious differences.
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And it is the same one that is shown in the Wilkie painting of Victoria that I found in the early hours :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,171198.msg811694.html#msg811694
Gadget
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Gadget, can you attach a bigger image of the brooch from the Wilkie painting? Thanks.
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I don't think the crown is the Imperial State Crown (which incidentally was originally made for Queen Victoria because the coronation crown, St Edward's Crown, remade in the 17th century after Cromwell did away with the original crown, was too heavy for her). I think it is more like St Edward's Crown - see the picture here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nw/
Queen Victoria can be seen wearing the Imperial State Crown here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0nx/
The Coronation crown has this beaded look to the metal arches and the cross pattee and fleur de lys design. However, it is still not quite right.
I was looking for the brooch as well - that was good thinking, Gadget.!
Nell
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Nell, thanks for the links! I am having difficulty locating these images myself to use to compare with the portrait I have. But definitely, from what I saw on the links you provided, the crown in my portrait is neither. With close examination of the closeup images I've added, the "struts" of the crown is adorned with "pearls" down the centre. The St. Edward's and the Imperial have more jewels.
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That crown really looks more and more like the House of Orange one! Were any of VR's mother's family married into the House of Orange around the 1840-50 period?
Gadget - on royal overload ::) ::) ::)
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Sorry to contradict but i don't think that is Queen Victoria. I am of the opinion that it is Queen Isabella II of Spain, if you compare with the portrait i have added of her you will see that there are remarkable similarities with the face, pose, clothes and sash.
Might i suggest it might be good to post yor portrait at one of the other forums i go to http://www.theroyalforums.com many of the members collect photos of the royal families and might have a copy of yours in their collection, i would suggest that you post it either in the Spanish forum or in the Royal Chit Chat forum.
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A portrait of a young Isabella II, the crown looks alot like yours.
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Beat me to it, Amy ;) :)
I just came on here to say that I thought it looked like Isabella. Apparently she sold off the majority of the royal jewels while in exile, and now only a crown and sceptre are left. Tiffany bought some of her jewels, and reset them - if you have a Tiffany necklace (I wish ::) ;D ) you might have a bit of Spanish royal regalia!
Prue
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Amy & Prue, the crown in Isabella's portrait looks exactly like the one in the portrait I have. So, how do I find out what the medals on her sash are for? I have such difficulty finding the information I'm interested in on google! I guess I just don't know what terms to use... ???
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biddybarracks - I would do as Amy suggests and post the picture/s on the royal forums. I'm sure they'll be able to ID them. There may not be any piccies on Google if Isabella flogged all her jewellery! ;D
Prue
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Well, it's nice to think thatI said that it was Isabella 11 in about the second posting of this thread but Biddy said she didn't think so.........
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,171198.msg811599.html#msg811599
Oh well I know an awful lot more about crown jewels ??? ??? ???
Gadget
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Sorry about that, Gadget! :'(::) ;) It's just that the portrait I was looking at didn't really look like the woman I had in my portrait (but then again, I'm not really good at that kind of stuff!). The portrait Amy provided really, really helped! Thanks everyone; the friendly and helpful members of rootschat are the BEST! ;D
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Well, it's nice to think thatI said that it was Isabella 11 in about the second posting of this thread but Biddy said she didn't think so.........
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,171198.msg811599.html#msg811599
Oh well I know an awful lot more about crown jewels ??? ??? ???
Gadget
I think we all know alot more about crown jewels - probably more than we ever wanted to! ;D
Never mind, eh - 'tis better to have explored all the possibilities before coming to a conclusion. Well done you for spotting her first up :)
Prue
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I should have done what I usually do Prue and looked at images of her myself but it was late and I was also dealing with a Church lecturer query and getting angry with my laptop - I'm on it now and the keyboard just doesn't feel right and the touch pad is :( :( :(
No excuse though.
As it turned out, I spent another couple of hours looking up Victoriana and crown jewels ::)
What I find interesting (and I'm not really interested in things royal) is how small the gene pool was for the European Royals - all that lack of chin and limited marriage choice. I presume their jewels were similar as well.
Gadget
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I have found this tread fascinating! Not a Royalist, but still very interested. I agree with you, Gadget, everyone was related to everyone else. I watched a programme about Catherine the Great last night. That was one determined lady!!
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No, no please not Catherine the Great. No, enough's enough ::) ::) ::)
Gadget
PS - a determined lady with a chin :o
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...if only the chinless wonders had interbred more with the Habsburgs...check out King Charles V of France and his famous chin :o