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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: avm228 on Wednesday 19 July 06 15:32 BST (UK)
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Dear All
I've got a frustrating brick wall that I'm making no progress on - Rootschatters have been so resourceful and helpful to me lately that I thought it was worth putting this one out there just in case anybody has any ideas.
I was lucky enough to inherit a handwritten family tree from a (now long-deceased) relative which has proved about 95% accurate and invaluable in tracing this particular line of the family. It's at the top of the tree that things get a bit vague and I'm struggling to pin people down. I'm hoping that an extract from the tree will appear as an attachment to this post (my first attempt at posting an image!).
So: here's what I know. George Pierce was born and baptised in 1769 (St James' Westminster). He married, in 1790 in Westminster, Betsey Matthews of Calne, Wilts, daughter of Thomas Matthews and Susannah Tarrant.
George b 1769 was a jeweller (not a naval officer, as the family tree suggests; that was his eldest son George). He occupied premises at 9 Richmond Buildings, Soho, and the jewellery business was carried on there after his death (in 1823) by two of his sons, James and Samuel.
What I'm desperate to know is - who were the parents of George b 1769? His baptismal records say George Pierce and Elizabeth. The family tree names his father as "George - drowned in Wales" and makes no mention of his mother. That is absolutely all I have.
As an even longer shot, the family tree shows the father of "George - drowned in Wales" as "Dormond (of Taunton, Somerset) b 1700" with a brother Thomas. Above that the tree simply bears the title "Pierce (originally from Wales)".
Any ideas at all as to how to fill in the gaps would be most welcome. In case the middle names give any clues, I'll list the children of George Pierce/Betsey Matthews:
George Pierce b 1791 (bap St James, Westminster)
James Parker Pierce b 1794 (bap St James, Westminster)
Robert Pierce b 1796 (bap St James, Westminster)
Elizabeth Jeanette Pierce b 1798 (bap St James, Westminster)
Samuel Oliver Pierce b 1800 (bap St James, Westminster)
Thomas John Bailey Pierce b 1802 (bap St Anne's Soho)
Jane Beal(e) Bleadon Pierce b 1805 (bap St Anne's Soho)
Thanks in advance for any suggestions at all
Anna
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Oh dear - the image is enormous. Is there any easy way to shrink it?
Anna :o
OK - I've cropped it...
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Hello
Have found this on familysearch.org, a record for Geo. Pierce m Elizabeth Williams in Monken Hadley (no idea where this is), London, 20 Aug 1767. Wonder if this could be your George and Elizabeth?
There is also a record for a George Pierce marrying Margaret Peferley on 25 apr 1769 in St James, Westminster. So maybe this could be your george remarrying or maybe someone unrelated!
acceber
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Just adding a little Welsh info - it could well be that the patronymic form was being used in Wales at the time.
Pierce is Anglicised from ap Rhys - son of Rhys.
Alternatively, one account gives it as being anglcised from the French 'piers'
Gadget
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Pierce ( and variants ) is a common name in Plymouth which seems reasonable for a naval officer. Plymouth being full of Cornishmen would also fit with Gadget's theory.
Dimond/Diamond and variants are common around Taunton.
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Thanks, everyone, for your input.
Acceber - I've seen that Monken Hadley marriage and wondered about it. Monken Hadley is in Herts just north of London. I've no other evidence at the moment to suggest a link with Monken Hadley, but you never know what might turn up!
The George Pierce marriage to Margaret in April 1769 I hadn't seen - interesting to see the St James Westminster connection - but I think it must just be coincidence as my George was not born until May 1769 (and baptised as son of George and Elizabeth in June 1769).
I'd love to get back to the Welsh roots, Gadget - if I ever find out anything at all about Dormond Pierce I might be able to verify whether this family really was from Wales, as the family tree says, or not :) But it does look as though they were in England from about 1700 onwards, if the tree is correct. It's interesting to learn that there are different sources for the Pierce surname - I hadn't been aware of that.
Lendevon - the naval officer in the family was (contrary to the family tree) not George b 1767 but his eldest son George b 1791 in London and baptised at Westminster. He was based at Devonport in the 1820s and 1830s and there is lots of naval biographical information about him, but there's nothing to suggest that the family was from Devon originally. As to Diamond/Dimond - it hadn't even occurred to me that Dormond might be a variant of those names. Other than this family tree I've got no information at all about Dormond Pierce, but I'd give anything (or quite a lot) to find out.
Many thanks again everyone :)
Anna
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I know this is quite a few years after your earlier messages - and you might have found this already - but the name Jane Beale Bleaden Pierce appeared on a periphery bit of research I was doing.
She was married to Robert William Morgan and information on her family can be found on this page: http://www.sewallgenealogy.com/p361.htm#i15618
My interest was in her daughter Edith, who married Rev. Henry Doyle Sewall. Their daughter Edith married John McClennan whose sister Emily married into the Verschoyle family who are my distant relatives. So quite on the edge of my tree!
Hope this is helpful.
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Hello Cazo
Nice to hear from you - yes, I do have Jane's Sewell and McClellan descendants noted (early 20thc at least). In fact there is another string to the connection because Emily and John McClellan's mother was born Emily Elliott Pierce (niece of Jane) - so that Edith Sewell and her husband John McClellan were related. It's always good to hear from someone else with people in common, even if peripheral!
I still haven't got any further back on the Pierce side of the tree. Maybe some day :)
Anna
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Hi,
There are a couple of 18th C and two 17th C PCC wills of Taunton Pearses/Pearces that might be worth investigating:
http://bit.ly/uYSNDD
Regards
Rob
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Thanks Rob - will have a look :)
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Hello Anna,
George Pierce b. 1769 is our earliest known ancestor too, so we would be delighted if you succeed in pushing the curtain back another generation or two. We are descended through Samuel Oliver Pierce b. 1800, and have a fairly complete list of his descendents down to the 1920s. Which of George's children is your ancestor?
Richard
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Hello Richard and a warm welcome to Rootschat :)
I must say I am thrilled to bits to hear from a fellow Pierce researcher as there don't seem to be many of us around (despite the family's fecundity!).
I've made precisely zero progress on tracing this line further back, though recent releases of apprenticeship records and London land tax records add a bit of colour on our common ancestor George himself.
A summary of my direct line after George (5x g-gf) up to the 20thC is:
(4x g-gf) James Parker PIERCE (1764-1869) married (in England) Mary TIMBRELL
(3x g-gf) John Timbrell PIERCE (1831-1909) married (in England) Mary Jane MILWARD
(2x g-gf) John Timbrell Milward PIERCE (1862-1927) married (in Nebraska, USA) Anne Wylie MACGREGOR
(My g-gm) Mary Winifred PIERCE (1887-1940) married (in Asuncion, Paraguay) Frank MIDDLETON
My direct bit of the line has subsequently ended up back in England, though the American branch of the family is also thriving.
If you add a couple more posts to your name (which you can easily do by responding further to this thread) you will be able to use Rootschat's personal messaging system so that we can exchange family information away from the public boards. I'd very much like to liaise further regarding our overlapping family tree.
Anna
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Anna, I am delighted that you are descended through James Parker Pierce, since he and Samuel Oliver Pierce continued to operate George Pierce's jewellery business after their father died. Do you know much about James Parker Pierce or the jewellery shop?
We have an interesting journal written by Samuel Oliver Pierce in the 1850s of a tour he made of the United States, including a visit he made to the White House in an (unsuccessful) attempt to pay his respects to President Franklin Pierce.
Samuel Oliver Pierce (1800-1885) is my 2x g-gf
Richard
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Hi Richard I am also descended from Samuel Oliver through his son Septimus and through his son Henry I also Have a copy of the 1853 journal and would also very much like to go further back but also come up against a brick wall but at least I now have a picture of Samuel from the internet and know where his grave is its amazing what you can achieve through google I wander what he would have thought!! Margaret
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Hi Margaret and welcome :) It's great to hear from another Pierce descendant.
Also: apologies to Richard, as I don't seem to have responded to his last post. I know that there was a jewellery business, based at 9 Richmond Buildings, Soho, inherited by James Parker Pierce and Samuel Oliver Pierce from their father, but little more about the business than that. JPP lived at Clifton Lodge, The Grove, Kentish Town (the house is no longer standing) and busied himself with being a Justice of the Peace for St Pancras and, in the early 1850s, churchwarden for St Pancras parish.
JPP died in January 1869 and his widow Mary (nee Timbrell) purchased a grave at Highgate Cemetery were he was buried (as was Mary in due course). Their eldest son John Timbrell Pierce and his wife Mary (nee Milward) are also buried there. The gravestone has recently been cleared of its ivy and its inscription is legible again.
The 1853 journal sounds fascinating! Was it thought there was a family connection with President Franklin Pierce, or was it just the coincidence of surnames which prompted the visit to the White House?
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Hi Anna, George and Betsy have a Headstone in Kensal Green Cemetery along with Samuel Oliver and one of Samuel's children Thomas who was buried at sea. Samuel talks about loosing a son in his journal whilst he was touring America so I presume that this was him. After the partnership between James and Samuel was dissolved Samuel went on to become a Coach Master. If you google Samuel there is a picture of him and also his house in Twickenham Ryde Lodge (just over the Richmond Bridge) It is still in use but I don't know what for. I find this a fascinating journey and apart from a piece in an e book from Burke's which states that George was originally from Chepstow Monmouthshire I am unable to go further back Regards Margaret
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Burke's which states that George was originally from Chepstow Monmouthshire
Oooh Margaret - this is news to me! As you can see in the inherited family tree I posted earlier in the thread, it was thought the family was "originally from Wales".
Have you still got the Burke's extract, or can you recall which edition mentioned this? I have library access to some of Burke's.
Thanks also for the info about the Kensal Green grave - I didn't know about that either :)
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Have now found the online bit of Burke's - thanks. :)
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Hi Anna, Google James Parker Pierce and you will find it in an e book (headed read the e book) you will have to scroll down but it talks of Freettons which I believe is in your line. It is in alphabelical order under Pierce of Feettons and mentions James and his children also George and Betsy and mentions Landed Gentry!! Regards Margaret
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Got it - thanks. It's got a bit garbled in the digitisation (e.g. the house was Frettons rather than Feettons) but no matter. The date of publication must be around the late 1880s to early 1890s given who in the family is listed as alive and who is not yet listed (so not yet born). I shall see if I can trace a hard copy.
Update: it's in fact the 8th edition of Burke's Landed Gentry (1894) - have now found a hard copy. Thanks for pointing me to that :) If you'd like a pdf copy and are happy to exchange email addresses feel free to send me a personal message (click on the green scroll under my username).
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Hi Anna, Good luck with the Chepstow link I am not sure how to use this information so if you manage to get any further I would be very interested Regards Margaret
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Hi Anna, Good luck with the Chepstow link I am not sure how to use this information so if you manage to get any further I would be very interested Regards Margaret
Absolutely - will keep you posted.
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Hello Margaret, it is a pleasure to meet you online. I am descended from Henry's brother John (who was my grandfather), so we can't be too far removed. In the 1925 Compromise which finally settled the distribution of Samuel Oliver Pierce's estate (40 years after his death!), Henry is listed with his daughters Marjorie and Beatrice.
I was fascinated to hear that your branch also has a copy of the Journal of S. Pierce's Tour to the United States of 1853. It must have made quite an impression on the family for different members to handwrite a copy for themselves. I assume Samuel Oliver Pierce wondered if he was related to President Pierce, but any relationship would have been remote, since the President's ancestors had been living in New England for over 200 years. However, if you compare surviving pictures of the two gentlemen, the possibility of a common ancestor cannot be ruled out:
President Franklin Pierce:
(http://www.worldbook.com/images/stories/franklin-pierce-picture.jpg)
Samuel Oliver Pierce:
(http://www.daguerreotype-gallery.de/news2011/2011-1/rahmen.jpg)
Incidentally, I do not think Samuel Oliver Pierce was ever a coach master. A subscribers' list of about 1840 describes him as a conch master, which was a popular item of jewelry in Victorian times. Most likely he made them as well as sold them in the Soho jewelry store. At that time he was living in Maida Hill (Paddington), and we have a Child's Book of Games that his son Septimus won as a school prize while they were living in that house in the 1840s. My guess is that he retired from the jewelry business around 1850, bought Ryde House in Twickenham, and had the time and money to live comfortably and do some travelling. We have another journal that he wrote of a trip to Paris in the 1860s.
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Burke's which states that George was originally from Chepstow Monmouthshire
Oooh Margaret - this is news to me! As you can see in the inherited family tree I posted earlier in the thread, it was thought the family was "originally from Wales".
Chepstow, Monmouthshire is still in Wales. I'm not sure if you're implying that this means that isn't the case. I apologise if you're not.
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Hello Richard, Good to meet another cousin! Henry's daughter Marjorie was my Mother. Her sister Beatrice passed away very recently. Was Henry's brother John also known as Jack? or was there a John and a Jack? We kept in touch with Great Uncle Jack's family who lived in Ipswich Jack had two Daughters I remember Joan and I believe the other was Hettie.
I have to agree that Franklin Pierce and Samuel are very alike so maybe there was something in the rumour that they were cousins I can't imagine how many times removed
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Hello Margaret, Jack and John are the same person. His daughter Ettie (Henrietta) was my mother.
I believe that the house on Regent's Canal is still standing where his father Septimus was born in 1842 (and where his father Samuel Oliver Pierce was still living in 1853 - http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21414/pages/570/page.pdf). If I understand it right, 32, Warwick Villas, Maida-hill West is now 32 Maida Avenue W2 1ST. Richard.
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Hi Richard,
Are you still in contact with Joan's two children. I lost contact with them and as we spent some time with them when we were all children and it would be good to know how they are and how their lives have been.
Although we used to hear of you we never did get to meet. I think this is a really interesting family history that we have. and I suppose that we are lucky to have as much information as we have but I would still like to get beyond the brick wall of George !! Regards Margaret
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Hi Margaret, I last saw Rosalind and John 30 years ago when we visited Joan in Ipswich and they came over to her house too. We have unfortunately lost contact since then.
Now, getting back to George Pierce . . .
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Hi Richard, It must be around the same time frame that we visited Joan and saw Rosalind and John, such a shame to drift apart. I have some pictures of Septimus unfortunately not as close up as I would have liked but some of the house in Chelsea I presume at 58 College Street as in the 1871 census I also have the original Marriage certificate of Septimus and Sophia where both fathers are described as gentlemen.
Regards Margaret
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I know it is a long shot, but you probably need to check for wills for any Pierce's in Monmouthshire in the 1700's. I don't imagine there would be too many. However, it gets more complicated if the name reverts to patronymics.
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I know it is a long shot, but you probably need to check for wills for any Pierce's in Monmouthshire in the 1700's. I don't imagine there would be too many. However, it gets more complicated if the name reverts to patronymics.
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Hello,
I'm a Rootschat newcomer, just came across this thread when looking at the Pierce family.
I'm also descended from George Pierce the jeweller, through Captain George's daughter Julia Sarah Langdon Pierce (Smithett), and her daughter Agnes Julia Smithett (Christian-Edwards).
Like everyone else I've drawn a blank as far as George Senior's parents go.
Has anyone else been looking at the Baylis/Patrick/Langdon/Pierce link? I'd very much like to be able to join the dots -
Thanks, Kate W
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Hello Kate and a warm welcome to Rootschat :) It's lovely to "meet" another cousin!
I haven't got my FH material with me but have traced some of the Baylis-Patrick-Langdon-Pierce side. From memory some bits of that line ended up in New Zealand I think?
If you let me know which dots you're keen to join up, I'll happily consult my records when I get home and see whether I can help.
Anna
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I am Doris Pierc-Hope grandaughter. My mother, Minona Margaret, was her second and last child, has ten children, and i am the youngest. I am very happy to know about my really big family.
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Hello Margarita - how lovely to hear from you! My grandmother (Dorothy, or "D", who died in 2007) spoke so fondly of Minona all her life. Dorothy was one of the daughters of Doris' eldest sister, Mary Winifred (always known as Molly).
I'd love to be in touch - once you have another post to your name we can communicate through Rootshat's private message system if you would like.
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Anna
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Welcome to the Pierce family thread, Margarita.
Speaking of private messages, MaggiMae could you check yours?
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An interesting aside regarding Samuel Oliver Pierce (1800-85) and his younger sister Jane Beale Bleaden Pierce (1805-86) - they married another brother and sister, Ann Margaret Morgan (1800-72) and her younger brother Robert William Morgan (1801-72), both children of Robert Morgan (b. 1772) and Elizabeth Fell, who had married as a minor in 1796.
They celebrated a double baptism in St Anne, Soho on 4 January, 1832, when Edward Pierce and Eliza Jane Morgan were baptised together.
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You may have already found this:
NZ researcher/librarian Tony Millett (descendant of George Patrick Pierce) gives the following:
Thomas Pearce, b 1678 of Eaststreet, Taunton, Somerset. Children including:
son Damond Pierce, born 1708, of Chepstow (Monmouthshire); children including:
son George b 1738, d 1768 (drowned); of Cowbridge, Glamorgan, Wales; children including:
son George b 19 Dec 1768 at Reading, Berkshire; m 13 Dec 1790 Betsey Matthews, b 1766 Calne, Wiltshire, d of John Matthews, d 15 May 1838
(http://tonymillett.tripod.com/id45.html )
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My wife's paternal grandmother was Nellie Pierce, daughter of Septimus, Samuel Oliver's son. She married Henry Knight whose son was Robert Lanier Knight my wife's father. We also have a copy of SO Pierce's journal which he put together about his trip to the USA. Like everyone else I have reached an impasse about the Pierces in about the mid 18th century. I have only just joined RootsChat so I am not familiar yet with the thread that I stumbled upon. I should wlecome any contact about the more recent leads.
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Hello cloudcuckoo, welcome to the thread. Your wife is the third of Septimus' great-grandchildren to tangle with it (the other two are MaggiMae through Nellie's brother Henry, and me through Nellie's brother John / Jack). It seems that all of Septimus' children had to copy out the journal of their grandfather's trip to America!
As far as the Pierce ancestors in the 18th century are concerned, the tradition that they came from Wales and the West Country now has names and dates, although I am not sure if anyone has verified them (much of what I was told about the Pierces has turned out to be hogwash, so we need to cautious). Not that we really need a Welsh immigrant to explain George's appearance in St. James Westminster in 1769, since there were multiple families of Pierces living in the parish in the 1730s and 1740s, and he could have been descended from any one of them.
Do you have any old Pierce family photos, documents or memorabilia, apart from the copy of Samuel Pierce's journal? We have a few interesting things that we would be interested in sharing. Also a little information about the maternal lines (Sophia Brorone/Brown & Ann Margaret Morgan). If you make 3 or more posts you will be eligible to send and receive private messages, which may be preferable for this sort of exchange.
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You may have already found this:
NZ researcher/librarian Tony Millett (descendant of George Patrick Pierce) gives the following:
Thomas Pearce, b 1678 of Eaststreet, Taunton, Somerset. Children including:
son Damond Pierce, born 1708, of Chepstow (Monmouthshire); children including:
son George b 1738, d 1768 (drowned); of Cowbridge, Glamorgan, Wales; children including:
son George b 19 Dec 1768 at Reading, Berkshire; m 13 Dec 1790 Betsey Matthews, b 1766 Calne, Wiltshire, d of John Matthews, d 15 May 1838
(http://tonymillett.tripod.com/id45.html )
Sincere apologies for having overlooked this very helpful post from last October.
I have been in touch with the site owner, who kindly responded to say that his source was this work in Auckland War Memorial Museum Library:
http://thecommunityarchive.org.nz/node/77913/description
I have not yet been in touch with the museum, or attempted to trace the author. Is anyone on here in or near Auckland?
The information listed in the website extract is very close to the story which has been passed down my line of the family, but obviously more detailed. However, subject to what the NZ documents show, I do not know of any of it yet having been corroborated by contemporaneous 17th or 18th century records.
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My wife's paternal grandmother was Nellie Pierce, daughter of Septimus, Samuel Oliver's son. She married Henry Knight whose son was Robert Lanier Knight my wife's father. We also have a copy of SO Pierce's journal which he put together about his trip to the USA. Like everyone else I have reached an impasse about the Pierces in about the mid 18th century. I have only just joined RootsChat so I am not familiar yet with the thread that I stumbled upon. I should wlecome any contact about the more recent leads.
Welcome cloudcuckoo - it's great to have another Pierce researcher on board :)
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Not that we really need a Welsh immigrant to explain George's appearance in St. James Westminster in 1769, since there were multiple families of Pierces living in the parish in the 1730s and 1740s, and he could have been descended from any one of them.
On this - I need to apologise for having (in the first post of the thread) referred to the 1769 Westminster baptism as being "our" George. I think that is still very much open to question. In November 2006 an American cousin & fellow Pierce descendant contacted me to say that that the information she had inherited (I do not know what type of document) showed George's birthdate as 19 December 1768. Place not known.
This is the same date we see in the NZ account, with a Reading birthplace.
It is also consistent, for what that is worth, with his age at death of 55 on 24 Dec 1823 (per burial register of St Anne's, Soho - buried 31 Dec 1823).
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son George b 1738, d 1768 (drowned); of Cowbridge, Glamorgan, Wales
Cowbridge PRs show a George Pierce buried 21 July 1768. No further details of him are recorded.
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Thankyou avm228 and Bullard for the welcome and for bringing me up to date with the Pierce saga. I clearly wasn't too far out in my analysis so it is all very puzzling especially when the family became so distinguished subsequently. Incidentally, Bullard, we have photographs of Nellie and Henry's wedding which must show Septimus and his wife and probably two of the sons at Septimus's home in Steyning Sussex. Unfortunately there are no clues as to who is in the photograph. I shall be happy to share such information as I have though as you say it might be best done via e-mail.
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That is an interesting photo, cloudcuckoo. Septimus had 3 sons (George Oliver b. 1872, John Edward b. 1873, and Henry b. 1883). Two of them were 10 years older then the third, so we may be able to take a guess at which ones are in the photo. (If you reply to this you will have 3 posts, and will be eligible for private messaging.)
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Hello Bullard
My wife has the feeling that the two elder brothers are those to the right of the groom and the youngest is the one in the front row to the right in front of Septimus. My wife's uncle had a better record of who is who and I shall contact his daughter to see if she has any better ideas.
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Hi to all of you
I am entering the Pierce thread in the hope of gathering info about my ancestry.
My grandmother Doris (daughter of John Pierce-Hope) married Clement McEwen. My late mother is Minona whose first husband was a Swede (Kurt Ekman). I have kept my motherīs surname McEwen. I live in Sweden but I grew up in Spain, Malaga
Ian Malcolm
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Hello Ian and welcome :)
We are related (2nd cousins once removed I think). Your grandmother Doris was a sister of my great-grandmother Molly (who was officially Mary Winifred).
Anyway it's good to make contact with you - I will send you a personal message (PM) and perhaps we can exchange email addresses that way?