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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Humphreyjohn on Tuesday 18 July 06 19:08 BST (UK)
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I'm interested in tracking down any cartes de visite, portraits or outdoor photographs taken by my Great Grandfather, John Humphrey, who had a photographic studio on King Street, Kilmarnock, from the early 1860s until his death in 1889.
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:) Hi, I have about 10 different styles of cdv mount by John Humphrey. He was at 123 and 127 King Street. I only have one cdv that I can part with as the others are in the archive. However, I could arrange scans. In 1881 he had 6 children. Ron Cosens
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Hello Ron, Many thanks for your response. I'd be very interested to know what the Victorian Image Collection archive is. It's fascinating to learn that you've come across 10 different cdv mount styles for JH - I've recently started trying to track his output, its development over time, and of course the mounts are a great help in dating. Apart from an early plain back (123 King) and a playing card type (King Street), both of which I've guessed date from about 1865-7, I've only come across the one I posted, plus an earlier variant. I figured he used it throughout the 70s and perhaps into the 80s. Anyway, I would be over the moon if you could send me front and back scans of all those you mention, plus the cdv you can part with. Contact me at humphreyjohn[at]rogers.com regarding payment and method thereof (since I live in Canada). That's very exciting news. I'm trying to build up a database of his work.
By the way, his oldest son John (one of the 6 children you mention in the 81 census) went on to become an excellent photographer in his own right, but based in Wick, Caithness, from about 1889. Some of his work appears in a new little book by Christopher Uncles called "Memories of Caithness" (Stenlake 2004).
Recently I discovered a photo by JH senior of his first wife, Mary Gemmell, who died giving birth to John in January 1869 - she just having turned 20. The photo is 9" x14", just of head and shoulders, the dress touched up with oil paints and the face colourized. Quite beautiful. Nothing to prove it's by him, but it's certainly of her, and it would make sense that he took it. Dated maybe 1866-8.
It's too big to attach - as I've just found out - as is a self-portrait by JH dated (at a guess) around 1870.
Anyway, look forward to hearing back from you,
Kindest regards,
John Humphrey.
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Hi, I have scanned the 12 images back & front and will send by separate email. Also an entry from a directory. The Victorian Image Collection is a privately owned, very large archive of original Victorian cartes de visite and cabinet cards put together to assist Family History, Local History and publication researchers (authors). Archive items are not for sale but can be scanned for research or publication purposes. A small charge is usually made. Additionally, thousands of spare cdv from all over the UK and Eire which are not required by the archive are available for sale. Regards Ron www.victorianimagecollection.com
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Wow, Ron, you really have opened up a treasure chest there. Classifying and dating cartes de visite, and adding biographical details about the photographers, provides a great resource for historians, photography buffs and genealogy tracers. Good luck with your important work. As I'm sure you know, another great source is http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/, a site run by Peter Stubbs, though the main connection is with Edinburgh, and he doesn't post many actual pictures. Many thanks, John
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Hi, I don't know if you are still interested in photos taken by John Humphrey , 127 King Street but I have found one in my family tree collection. It is of my great grandfather James Morren when he became inspector of police at Rayne, Aberdeenshire. I am attaching scan of front. Will do back if you want but there is a little scribble on it.
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Hi Jan
That's a great portrait of your great grandfather James Morren - and that fake rustic prop he's in front of is something that appears in several of my great grandfather John Humphrey's studio photos. I would certainly be interested in a scan of the reverse of the (presumably) carte de visite, since that helps to date it; you could send it directly to (*) if you prefer. Do you know exactly when James was made up to police inspector? Presumably he was originally from Kilmarnock?
Very best regards, and many thanks for this great glimpse into the past.
John (in Canada)
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Great to hear from you. My great grandfather was born in 1862 and from 1891 census I know he was a sargeant. By the 1901 census he was an inspector so the photo probably taken between those years as I think it was likely to celebrate his promotion. He died in 1915 but no idea when he retired as police record sources are not very forthcoming. I have attached the reverse for you. The writing on the back reads - My father, When inspector and Rusty's grandad. I could have removed the pencil but it is my mother's handwriting and I found that I could not do so, sorry. I was unable to access your other address.
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Hello again Jan. Again, many thanks for showing the image. That backplate dates from the very last years of my great grandfather's studio, perhaps 1887-8. He died in March 1889, so it's definitely not later than that. Your mother's written comment about James Morren being an inspector at that time (which IMHO you shouldn't ever erase - all part of history!) must be mistaken, if the census says that he was still a sergeant in 1891. In any case, the right forearm of his uniform seems to show only two stripes, which indicates that he had not even attained the rank of sergeant (3 stripes) at the time of the photo. I'm not sure what the intermediate rank between regular constable and sergeant would have been, but he was already on his way up the promotion ladder. By the way, what police force was he in at that time? Kilmarnock? Aberdeenshire? His badge #89 might enable you to trace his promotion history.
Take care,
John
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Very helpful info. The Victorian police ranks show him to be a senior constable, which was four ranks down from inspector. I always thought he looked rather young in photo. I do have a pic when he was about 34 but not in uniform. My gran was obviously remembering wrongly. I have tried further to locate more police info but it is still proving tricky to find. Never mind I have loads of time to persevere. Thanks again.
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Hi John - I just found this post -- I am going through some old photos from my aunt who recently died and came across a card like the one that you posted - from Kilmarnock - I am not sure who it is - but I know that I have some Scotland roots. If you'd like a scan I would be happy to send - and would welcome any thoughts you might have. the picture is faded - Thanks, Todd
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PM sent - John
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Hi Todd,
seems that I can't get a personal message to you - something to do with you haven't posted to this site at least 3 times. Anyway, until that gets rectified - try posting a couple more times! - I can't forward my personal email address. However, you could attach a scan of your photo (back and front would help) to a regular message here; that would enable me to suggest any clues as to the date etc of the photo.
Best wishes,
John (Canada)
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I have five "tintype" photographs taken by "John Humphry, Kilmarnock" as well as a carte-de-visite with these same five men included in a group photo by "John Humphrey, Kilmarnock". Not sure if the printer made a mistake or that was the old phonetic spelling of his surname. But I cannot find any CDV's with "Humphry". But definitely same photographer.
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Hi Dunedinguy,
I find this very very interesting. I have a couple of similar-style tin-types by my great grandfather, but this is the only one that has his name printed on the front . On one of them I have has his name rather crudely hand-stamped on the back “John Humphrey, photographer, Kilmarnock” – over the patch holding the tin-type to the card; the other has no identifier at all, but it came through the family, so I know it’s his.
I would date your tintype to the very early 1860s, perhaps very late 1850’s, but a bit later than those I’ve seen already, since it has the printed cardstock. It’s certainly before 1862, anyway, since that’s when he went into partnership with James Paton.
BTW, the spelling is interesting. I’ve not seen any examples of “Humphry” on his cards before, although I do have some later ones of “Humphreys”. Spelling irregularities were not uncommon in official documents up until about this time.
I wonder if you’re able to post here (or send me) a scan of the back of this card, and front & back of the other “John Humphry” tintypes that you have? And of the group CDV you have. This sounds like a very interesting group of pictures – how did you come across them? Do you collect much of his output?
I will attach the front & back images of the tin-type I mentioned
Best regards,
John Humphrey (Toronto, Canada)
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Hi John,
So pleased to hear from you. I know this will further confuse matters but my CDV and Tintypes are definitely dated to around 1882-1884 as a younger family member appears in them who was born in 1859 so there's absolutely no assumptions there. I'm writing a blog (the-lothians.blogspot.com/) about these photos (the connection between the CDV portrait and the individual tintypes, the history of "tintypes', and a little bio of those who were 'tintyped'. I'll post the link to this blog when I upload this but will probably be into next month. One of the "sitters" was my above Gt GT Uncle hence I have these photo but still don't know why a merry band of friends went from Dalserf / Stonehouse to Kilmarnock to have their photos taken, obviously for some sort of special occasion. Some of them have flowers in their lapel buttonholes.
Regards,
Donald Cochrane
Dunedin
New Zealand
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Hi Donald,
Well you’ve really got my brain buzzing with your information.
My dating is obviously all wonky. I had assumed that tintypes, pretty rare in Scotland, were a survival of the past that were quickly and systematically replaced by cartes de visite. I knew that the technique survived into the early 20th Century, but on a pretty small scale, and particularly in the USA, but your info about your relative’s date of birth clearly shows that John Humphrey was dabbling in it late in his career; he died in March 1889. I had also assumed that they predated his partnership with James Paton (1862-57), but evidently they came after that period. I need to dig around to see how common that was in Scotland at the time.
In a way, it figures, since the mounting cards for these tintypes seem so crisp and colourful that it’s hard to imagine them being issued in the late ’50s and early ’60s.
It’s certainly possible that your relatives had a big family event or somesuch which brought them all to East Ayrshire, but, since tintype photography was very mobile, and often performed by itinerant photographers away from any fixed studio – at fairs or special sidewalk sessions - it may be that John Humphrey was travelling on business in Lanarkshire at the time, rather than the other way around.
Anyway, I’ll await the appearance of your blog with great interest. Thanks so much for your response.
John Humphrey (Toronto)
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Will do John. The interesting thing is that the tintypes appear to be taken at the same time as the CDV, the latter being a standard studio portrait with backdrop. So i'm strongly assuming they went to Kilmarnock. One last thing, the tintype mounts are in two colours and three variants in style. I'll leave you in peace now till i'm ready to post my blog. I'm finding this so interesting.
regards,
Donald
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Hi John, Here's the link to the blog on the Humphrey photos :
the-lothians.blogspot.com/2017/05/tintype-memories-of-visit-to-kilmarnock.html (http://the-lothians.blogspot.com/2017/05/tintype-memories-of-visit-to-kilmarnock.html)