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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: PrueM on Sunday 07 August 05 10:16 BST (UK)
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Original title: Question about county abbreviations
Fellow listers, I have a question which has been bugging me for a long time.
What is the origin of the abbreviations of Shropshire (Salop), Hampshire (Hants - and also Northamptonshire, Northants), and Oxfordshire (Oxon)?
I could understand it if they were hangovers from earlier times when spellings were different, but if that's the case then why have only these few hung on, while others have changed with the times?
I know it's not important, but it's going to bother me forever if I don't find out the answer soon!!
Hope someone can put me out of my misery! :-\
Prue
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Hi Prue
We discussed this in part when Ancestry took to calling Hampshire Hantshaving:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,46002.0.html
I think Oxon is from the latin for Oxford, Oxoniensis.
Not sure about Salop, but assumed it is one of the old county names that were lost during a reorganisation somewhere along the way? Would be interested to know.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi Prue,
Arranroots is right:
Oxon. Abbreviation for Oxoniensis (Latin ‘of Oxford’).
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0021348.html
Also:
cantab = cantabrigiensis
Cantabrigiensis, rather, the adjectival form of the noun Cantabrigia.
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/t110332.html
and in the Shrewsbury Guide:
http://www.shrewsburyguide.info/shrewsbury_history.html
Salop
You may occasionally find the town referred to as "Salop", particularly in historical records or publications. In fact Salop is the original name of the county of Shropshire, which of course includes the town of Shrewsbury. Locals will still often describe themselves as Salopians as do students past and present from the Shrewsbury Boys School.
As for Northants !
The name Northamptonshire comes from Old English North Hamtunscir meaning northern home town.
www.uktouristinfo.com/county.php?county=northamptonshire
I seem to recall something similar in the debate on Southamptom / Hampshire which Arranroots also references.
Bob
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From Genuki:
"Salop" derives from "Sloppesberie", the original Anglo-French name for this county.
Bob is correct, we have had this debate about Hantshaving before.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,46002.0.html
I can remember looking for information about it then. Now all Google comes up with are various message boards with information from the 1891 index (from Ancestry) in them. There are a number of claims that this is the original name for the county, but no-one has yet explained how it got that alleged original name.
Personally, I'm with the guy from the English Place-Name Society. I had never heard of it before!
Nell
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Shropshire came into existence as a unit of government in the early 10th century. The oldest known form of the name of the county is SCROBBESCIRE, the shire belonging to SCROBBESBYRIG, the Saxon name for Shrewsbury. After the Norman Conquest the county's new rulers adopted the forms SALOPESCIRE and SALOPESBIRY. The word SALOP, applying both to the county and the county town, survived from the middle ages as an alternative English form, having originally been abbreviated from the Norman French. A Latin form, SALOPIA, was commonly used in documents in the 16th century, and in subsequent centuries legal records refer to the County of Salop rather than to Shropshire. The new authority established in 1974 under the Local Government Act of 1972 was officially named Salop, but this was altered to Shropshire with effect from 1st March 1980
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Reminds me of a quiz question which stated that if Essex is where the East Saxons settled and Wessex is where the West Saxons settled, Sussex for the South Saxons and Middlesex for the Middle Saxons, then where did the North Saxons settle? I think the answer was Leicester, which I considered rather unfair.
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Doing English ancestry from the depths of Australia is not easy at the best of times, but gets a bit more difficult when it comes to giving places their correct name.
The thing that puzzles me most is use (or non-use) of "shire" on the end of county names. My tribe comes mainly from the south, so I have Dorset and Dorsetshire...and a few from York, others from Yorkshire, then Devon and Devonshire. This may be mixing counties and cities, but I'm sure you get my drift.
Is there a simple rule? What do the locals do? Guidance would be most welcome.. :-)
Paul
Australia
Moderator Comment: topics merged
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Doing English genealogy is difficult enough without stumbling over how to refer correctly to counties.
Most of my tribe come from the south, so should I use Dorset or Dorsetshire, Devon or Devonshire? The documentation I have cheerily mixes them up for me.
I don't think I could strip "shire" from Cheshire, but what about Yorkshire?
I'm sure this has had prior debate, and there is some recommended way of doing this. Would someone like to advise me, please?
Paul
Moderator Comment: topics merged
Australia
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Hi Paul,
you will find an explanation regarding English "Shire Counties" here -
http://www.answers.com/topic/shire-1
Regards
Darcy
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YOu shift the shire from Yorkshire and you will have us yorkshiremen on your back. York is a city in its own right and therefore you should add the shire when commenting about it. Devon and Cornwall is the full title of that county not really devonshire but again you will probably have people telling you that Devon and Cornwall are two seperate entities also. It is a complicated subject and not one I could put together on here very easily
Rob
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Hi Paul,
A shire is an administrative area of Great Britain and Australia. The first shires were created by the Anglo-Saxons in what is now central and southern England. Shires were controlled by a royal official known as a "shire reeve" or sheriff. Historically shires were sub-divided into hundreds or wapentakes although other less common sub-divisions existed. In modern English usage shires are sub-divided into districts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire
Doesn't really answer your question, but an interesting article :)
For background knowledge, this article is also interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_counties_of_the_British_Isles
with itself has more links to interesting related subjects.
The full name of (all / most ?) counties is with -shire tacked on. It is common to leave off the -shire, especially for those counties which don't have a city or town with the same name.
Devon and Dorset don't, so you are safe there (to leave the -shire off ;D ), but York is also a city in the county of York, and Gloucester is also a city in the county of Gloucester, so it makes sense here to be explicit and say Yorkshire or Gloucestershire for the county.
Whether there is a rule ... ??
Don't know, anybody else know ??
Bob
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Don't forget Cheshire and Lancashire
The old usage of the County of Chester and the County of Lancaster sound odd as modern usage is always Cheshire and Lancashire
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Some counties are abbreviated too eg: Cambs for Cambridgeshire, Lincs for Lincolnshire, Lancs for Lancashire, Bucks for Buckinghamshire.
(I'm in Australia too but I think I'm correct with these).
At least these days a simple google search can help clear up these placename queries ... well, usually ...
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The full name of (all / most ?) counties is with -shire tacked on. It is common to leave off the -shire, especially for those counties which don't have a city or town with the same name.
Devon and Dorset don't, so you are safe there (to leave the -shire off ;D ), but York is also a city in the county of York, and Gloucester is also a city in the county of Gloucester, so it makes sense here to be explicit and say Yorkshire or Gloucestershire for the county.
Bob
Then of course there is County Durham which has never been Durhamshire!!
Sorry Paul. All of this is probably adding to your confusion :)
Try this site
http://www.jimella.nildram.co.uk/counties.htm
It gives common county abbreviations and also explains what 'hundreds' and 'wapentakes' are.
Susan
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And Cornwall doesn't fit any of these categories. City is Truro and definitely not a shire anywhere!
Ellen
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That is a great link that SooCatt gave, http://www.jimella.nildram.co.uk/counties.htm
it's a lot clearer then the wikepedia links and also has a big plus for non-brits, that names of areas are also given. These can occur anywhere and are confusing if you don't know what they refer to:
e.g.
The Black Country
The Dales
East Anglia
East Midlands
Fenland
The Home Counties
The Lake District
The Peak District
The Weald
Welsh Marches
West Country and WESSEX
West Midlands
Wirral
etc.
Bob
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Don't forget Berkshire either
Not a town, and 'shire' is never left off, though Berks is a normal abbreviation
In fact there are many such abbreviations
Bob
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So glad you liked it Berlin Bob.
It's always nice to start the day feeling useful :D
Susan
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and then theres Hampshire - old name Southampton(shire) .......
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and then theres Hampshire - old name Southampton(shire) .......
Otherwise known as Hants of course
(never did understand that one - why not Hamps? Where did the 't' come from.
Bet you wish you'd never started this thread Paul ;D
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An excellent site for this is the "Association of British Counties" at
http://www.abcounties.co.uk/
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Otherwise known as Hants of course
(never did understand that one -
neither did others:
Topic: What's Hantshaving??
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,46002.15.html (*)
and
http://www.jimella.nildram.co.uk/hants.htm#origins
Derived from the 9th century name Hamtunscir, meaning "Shire based on Hamtun", where Hamtun meant the city now known as Southampton.
Researchers should be aware that the county of Hampshire is often referred to in old documents as The County of Southampton, and that it is frequently abbreviated (now and in the past) to Hants.
Bob
(*) Arranroots supplied an interesting link there,
List of generic forms in British place names
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_forms_in_British_place_names
ps. I've now merged this with a similar thread, so check out the first few entries.
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Thanks to everyone. If I wasn't confused before... :-)
Here are my problem ones
Badminton Gloucester England
Canterbury England
Croydon London England
Devonshire England
Hampshire England
Henstridge Bowden Somerset England
Hertfordshire England
Ilminster England
Kingswood Huntingdonshire England
Liverpool Lancashire England
London England
Mansfield Nottingham England
Marylebone London England
Middlesea Westminster London England
Nottinghamshire England
Shropshire England
St Giles London England
Wraysbury Buckingham England
Some of these seem OK, but just to be sure, would anyone like to correct me? (teach you lot to send me off to read 250 pages of ancient history...)
Paul
Australia
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[Great or Little] Badminton GloucesterSHIRE England
Canterbury, KENT England
Croydon SURREY England
Devonshire England - fine
Hampshire England - fine
Henstridge Bowden, Somerset(SHIRE) England
Hertfordshire England - fine
Ilminster, SOMERSET(SHIRE) England
Kingswood Huntingdonshire England - fine
Liverpool Lancashire England - fine
London England - up to early 1870s, most of what you wopuld call the CITY of London was Middlesex north of the river ...
Mansfield NottinghamSHIRE England
Marylebone (Middx pre-1870s) London England
Middlesea - probably Middlesex - Westminster London England
Nottinghamshire England -fine
Shropshire (SALOP pre 1850s) England - fine
St Giles MIDDLESEX pre 1870 London England
Wraysbury BuckinghamSHIRE England
HTH
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And the only English county which can legitimately have county in its name is Durham as in County Durham.
Please, never say "Middlesex County" or "Kent County" etc - it is just not correct. ;)
Nell
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There's a straightforward list on www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/ of the historical counties. I don't think there's much logic about it - just tradition.
Monica
Moderator Comment: topics merged
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The answer really depends on the history of the county. If originally it was named after a town or city, usually the original adminstrative centre then it will terminate in "shire". The town name sometimes is corrupted (e.g. Chester for Cheshire, Lancaster for Lancashire)
If it has other origins then it usually doesn't end in "shire" but occasionally shire gets tagged on (e.g. Devon). Some counties are named after very ancient regions like Essex and Middlesex.
You also need to be aware that some areas which end in "shire" have never been counties but are collections of Hundreds (which were the original divisions of counties used up to 1888 and had significance in administration of the law).
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Thank you all (especially NecroMancer) for your contributions. The short list I posted (after removing all the obviously correct lines I had) came mainly from the posted census material. I guess it depended on who you talked to... :-)
Nice to have it tidy...
Paul
Australia
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Three comments on necromancer's reply.
You should always say Nottinghamshire and Buckinghamshire to avoid confusion with the city and town.
The "shire" is rarely if ever added to Somerset.
Strictly the City of London has always been what is now the business area. The areas of Middlesex which were incorporated into London in 1880 should not be referred to as the City. London was expanded again in 1968 to incorporate what are now the London Boroughs. These included the rest of Middlesex, half of Surrey, some of Essex and a bit of Kent.
David
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Devonshire England - fine
Ilminster, SOMERSET(SHIRE) England
Does anyone use Devonshire and Somersetshire? I've never heard them used.
Monica
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Jane Austen uses Devonshire in Sense & Sensibility - in this particular instance, I think I will disagree with Miss Austen. ;)
Nell
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Thanks for the clarifications - please note that my (SHIRE) shown thus was intended to mean optional use..... and in fact rare as it is for Somerset and Devon, a simple plug into Google will reveal useage now and in yesteryears ..... not to mention the Royal Navy's habit of naming ships !
London / Middlesex - yes, CITY was incorrect useage. Altho' from the point of view of pre-1871 census searches, Middlesex is dominant useage - even if you were born/lived in Leadenhall Street for example.
Not sure where 1880 fits in ?
and London was expanded again in 1968 to incorporate what are now the London Boroughs
.
I think you'll find that 1963 proposals were implemented in 1965.
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I think that was an approximate date given. The correct date is 1889 when
the Administrative County of London was formed from the City of London, and parts of Middlesex, Kent and Surrey and was divided into boroughs.
Nell
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Lancaster and Chester pre date Lancashire and Cheshire. Chester is actually an old saxon word for Fort which is a corruption of the roman Caestra meaing Fort. Lancaster is a pre medieval town also with roots in Roman times the Caster again being a saxon corruption of Caestra. The counties were named in the Saxon/viking periods and the corruption of place names comes prior to this.
As for Hundreds these were only as a rule south of the Danelaw. North of this point we have Wapentakes. Essex and Sussex is East Saxons and South Saxons. Middlesex is middle Saxons and Wessex is West Saxons. Devon and Cornwall were never truly overrun with the Saxons so retained their old celtic names. Wales is Wealh which is saxon for foreigner. County and town names is a lot more complicated than this thread as made out.
Jumping back to the hundreds. Sussex also as Rapes :)
Rob
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Thanks Rob - I'd always wondered about Hundreds vs Wapentakes.
Much appreciated.
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Whoops. That will teach me to pull dates out of my head instead of checking them. You are of course right. The introduction of county councils and the London County Council was 1889, while the Greater London Council first met in 1965.
David
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not 100% sure of its re;evence but people always ask why northampton isnt in the north. the reason i belive is sounthampton and northampton were both call hamptune ( or similare ) and to aviod confusion we have a north and south variation to there same names.
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Does anyone use Devonshire ?
Peregrine Cavendish has been known to use it from time to time. ;)