RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: CatOne on Wednesday 05 July 06 11:01 BST (UK)
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Just read the Daily Mail this morning.
A cemetery in East London, Manor Park I think it said, is planning on selling old Victorian plots, complete with stones/monuments to other people wishing to be buried. They are allowed to destroy the inscriptions on there already to put their own on!
I havent any ancestors buried there myself (that I know of) but if any of you do, you may want to get photos/transcriptions while you still can!
Surely the stones/monuments belong to the families/descendants, even if the plots themselves dont, and it shouldn't be upto the council to allow them to be destroyed like that.
CatOne
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I think that is terrible. It's like rubbing out someone's existance. Why can't they just put another smaller plaque at the base of the gave with the inscription...thank you for allowing me to share your grave.
Su
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That is disgusting!!! Surely they cannot give away the stones??? >:(
My mother has been doing her side of the tree for many years and in the process found the unmarked graves of my great grandfathers brother and his wife and 6 children and will be buried with them in one of the plots with room to spare, (morbid but something i guess has to be thought about) And again my mother found the this time marked grave of my grandmas grandparents which is where she will be buried. Surely this is a better form of using a victorian grave than desecrating it and erasing the life and death of somebody that once lived and loved?
Penn
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I have just told my mother about this story as i thought it may interest her! and apparently she has found the grave of another rellie in the same cemetery of her grandfathers son who died aged 4 months (he is the only one in the grave). My great grandfather paid for the plot on a lease of 100 years (that time has now only just elapsed) and my mother asked the council if she could be buried in that grave as its her immediate family and they said no!! Surely this is a great answer to the 'grave shortage'. Atleast they are your own and your not being buried with someone who as no connection to you whatsoever! im finding all this a little one sided?? Ridiculous!!!
Penn
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=394085&in_page_id=1770
This is the article in th Mail.
How scandalous, can we prevent it somehow? How could we go about a petition or somthing similar?
This has made me so angry and I don't even have any ancestors in London.
I would be mortified if what has happened to Penninah's mother happened to me. It's just wrong.
I appreciate that burial land is at a premium but no-one has the right to erase the past and take family plots and re-use them.
I hope there is something we can do to prevent this.....
Legs
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I'm glad I brought it to your attention (although I'm sure someone else would have, had I not noticed it) I knew rootschatters would care even if it seems everyone else doesn't.
I know theres a shortage of grave space, but surely the families have paid for the stones, they are not the councils to give away to be destroyed. I hope someone comes up with an idea to save the stones and monuments, I'm sure we'll all sign any petition thats started!
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....My great grandfather paid for the plot on a lease of 100 years (that time has now only just elapsed) and my mother asked the council if she could be buried in that grave as its her immediate family and they said no!! ....
Penn
this is rather worrying. I remember my late father saying our family plots which hold his parents had been bought and an agreement had been signed that the cemetary wardens would care for the grave for 100 years. Wonder if he got it wrong and the family have leased the piece of land. I notice in the cemetary where my maternal folks are laid to rest that there's a sign saying any headstone deemed a danger will be taken down and disposed of. This is better than the town I'm now living in where headstones have been laid to make a pathway in the church grounds! It seems most disrespectful.
Rena
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:'( I have an Aunt and Uncle buried there and I think it is discusting.
Gina (squidgychoddah)
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Ok..so land is at a premium specially in London...so why not say no more burials unless its a family plot and theres room?
Somebody paid for those memorials. and it wasnt the council so theyre not theirs to sell........i think its stealing, pure & simple.
Im afraid i get very annoyed with folk like that..sell their own mothers they would.
That woman from Cruse says it will seem strange and disrespectful.....thats because it is!
Not to mention sacreligious,and money grubbing . Where do you draw the line?
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Go Jed, you have it in a nutshell!!!
what is wrong with these people, they have it all wrong, wrong, wrong!!!
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Actually I think this topic has been rumbling around Parliament and London local authorities for some time. I seem to recal a couple of years ago one of the big London Cemetaries putting coloured tags on stones in one area that they wanted to reuse and If no relly's came forward they were going to be re-used, can't remember which one it was. I remember it because we have London buriels and went and checked our paper work to see if any of ours would be affected. Don't know if any were reused at that time.
These links from 2000 show the concerns stressed back then;
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmselect/cmenvtra/91/91m48.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,363393,00.html
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Thank you JK,
Very interesting links.
Legs
xxxx
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If no family relatives come forward, why cant they be donated to local FHS societies, or other interested organisations, rather than being defaced and the inscriptions gone forever.
Who knows how many of us will find relatives in London cemeteries in the future? Just because no one comes forward now, doesn't meant to say no one would in the future. It would be better for a third party to have them, photograph them and record the information, than for them to be just destroyed in the way the councils seem to be allowing. At least the information on them would still be available for future generations, and its showing respect and care for those who are no longer here.
Would it really be possible to save them? or would the council not allow it? They just see £ signs, they dont see things as we do :(
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I couldn't agree more CatOne,
I thought bodies were meant to be left to rest in peace not to have their stones defaced and have complete strangers buried on top.... I'm so angry.....
Legs
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I totally agree, but feel that as you said local authorities will value £££ more. Not only that but the nature conservation factor isn't being considered here. Having spent time searching in Islington cemetery I know how beautiful and serene these places are. With green spaces in London being so rare cemeteries are home to so many animals and plants. We found some of our graves but other were in designated 'wild areas', many bramble scratches later we decided we were roughly in the right area and just enjoyed the peace, the area was all childrens graves and the tiny fallen stones in amongst all the undergrowth were really touching. The idea that local authorities might be allowed to come along and disturb these final resting places is truly awful, but then maybe those of us interested in History may just be biased.
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I think that's awful. Surely people should be left to rest in peace? None of my rellies seem to be there but I'd hate to think they were disturbed
crisrbow
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I don't think that we are biased, well maybe a little but with our love of genealogy and interest in history in general we have become much more in touch with our past and in doing so more respectful to the long dead we never knew (though perhaps through our researches have come too feel that in a way we do.) We are the ones in the right, if only other's weren't so narrow minded and could see past their own lifetimes they wouldn't think twice about upsetting the final resting places of our ancestors. It is truely wrong to go messing with that, its sacred. there comes a point when money should not come into the equation, this is one of them! There must be someway of stopping this!! It really is wrong.
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I agree this should be stopped, those graves are sacred to the people that are buried there, no one should disturb them, unless it is another family member that has passed also.
Sympathy to those with families involved.
Jane
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I couldn't agree more CatOne,
I thought bodies were meant to be left to rest in peace not to have their stones defaced and have complete strangers buried on top.... I'm so angry.....
Legs
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I thought graves had to be 6ft deep. How can another coffin be placed on top and still be legal?
Rena
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This is appalling. Is nothing sacred anymore. I'm from Australia. In some states here they have a policy that after 25yrs you have to re pay if you want to keep the site. This is another example of greed gone mad.
One would think in this day and age that another solution could be found. People will keep dying and nothing will stop that from happening. Space is an issue, this is undeniable, however forward planning doesn't seem to be a priority. It appears that the usual "quick fix" is the preferred alternative.
If a viable solution isn't found, the next thing we'll be reading about is the sale of cemetery land for development.
I don't have any worthwhile ideas about how to fix this, but I do know that someone has to draw a line in the sand sometime. It seems that anything is up for grabs in our modern society, and that's just not good enough.
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Rena- I wouldnt be suprised if they plan on digging up the original grave if only 6ft and burying it deeper therefor to allow room to put in another coffin! Disgraceful!
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If a viable solution isn't found, the next thing we'll be reading about is the sale of cemetery land for development.
Whilst searching earlier I found this,
http://www.derelictlondon.com/cemetery.htm
If you read the text about Wood Grange Park Cemetery it seems that it has already happened, it's not the same cemetery as the one in the Daily Mail article but is close by. It appears that local authorities don't consider burial ground as sacred at all does it :'( . The powers that be will stop at nothing to make money. Would have to be a big hoohaa to get a full stop to these desecrations.
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I'm sorry to tell you all this is the norm. A grave plot is seldom given in perpetuity. It was quite usual to allow someone else to be buried there some (about 20-50) years later. Some graveyards do allow a permanent site, but they are the exception.
Remember Hamlet? Yorick was dug up 10 years later for someone else.
meles
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Well as the councils arent interested in preserving the actual cemeteries, how about preserving the memories of these people by creating a "virtual cemetery" with photos of the memorials and inscriptions, similar to what the CWGC site have done for fallen soldiers (I recently printed off a memorial certificate for a great uncle who fell in the 2nd World War), that way theres a permanent "memorial" to them....... maybe donating "hard copies" to be preserved by our National Archives/Records Offices..... its one cemetery now, it'll be hundreds, maybe thousands over the years...... all those families scratched out of existance
Surely the council wouldn't object to this being done in memory of all those people they are trampling on!
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Excellent idea CatOne,
Will we have to volunteer or do you think the council will get off there bottoms and make an effort to preserve the past?!
Legs
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Do you think that Council Tax payers would support the costs of such an exercise? I'm afraid that cutting (local authority) costs is why it's so hard to get info nowadays.
meles
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Yes I think it's disgusting about what they are trying to do, I live up North but feel that if they started doing it in London where else would they do it.
They should preserve out Heritage not destroy it.
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Well, one thing that can be done is to write to the person named in the article, politely explaining why its wrong. A few sackfuls of post on his desk would draw his attention to the fact that folk think its disgusting.
Also a copy to your local Member of parliament and the Member for the area concerned .at the The House of commons, London W1A 1AA...as i say, suggesting an alternative for example no more burials unless a family plot, since whatever they do the space will be filled eventually.
Just a thought.
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I'm sure my comments are going to cause a stir but I wanted to add my thoughts so here goes anyway.....
The City of London cemetery at Manor Park in the article opened in the 1850's. The early plots may have been sold on a 75 or 100 year 'lease' which would have long expired by now, not a freehold or 'in perpetuity' plot. The cemetery has done what it can with regard to contacting the descendents of the now also dead owners of the graves. This situation hasn't only just happened, it's been rumbling on for years.
I know we all get excited about finding our loved ones plots but the reality is often this. The graves are unloved, untended and unvisited. The local authorites who look after the cemeteries spend as much as they can on keeping them tidy but if they aren't visited what's the point? I discovered an old family plot in an early London cemetery and couldn't tidy up the grave very much as it's now considered a wildlife conservation area. To my knowledge I was the first visitor to the grave since the 1930's.
While the nation choses burial over cremation, this situation is going to be repeated several times. The cemetery has run out of space, London has run out of space and something needs to be done. Consider the fact that these plots may have been dug for 4 or 6 interrments and only 2 used so there is 'room' for 2 or 4 more on top. I know this sounds callous but it's a realistic proposal.
With regard to donation the headstones to FHS's, it's a great idea but where are they going to keep them, these memorials are solid marble and weigh several hundreds of pounds. The ones depicting angels and cherubs even more so. Many of the inscriptions have weathered away completely over the years and are completely illegible now. If you've ever been involved in a memorial inscription project you'll know exactly what I mean.
I know this subject will keep going for a while, we all have our own opinions which we are entitled to. I respect the comments of the previous posters and do not wish to cause offence by posting mine, but hope that another view point can be considered.
Thanks for reading.
Dawn
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I am as dismayed as others by this.
I am in Australia, and am trying hard (and so far unsuccessfully!) to find where some of my ancestors are buried in England.
It would be devastating if I eventually find burial records, try to visit if I get to England some time, and find the graves have been reused and all trace of my ancestors obliterated.
I understand the pressure on land, but this is very sad stuff.
MarieC
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Just because the graves are no longer visited does not give the council/government a license to vandalize their headstones, regardless of their condition!! They are monuments, monuments to the people that lie beneath them! (whatever next? recycling war memorials?) I'm all for recycling but i draw the line at grave desecration! As you say (Dawn) everyone is entitled to their opinion and i am just voicing mine and as i can see I'm not alone in this train of thought, do we not get a voice in this as a nation? You say it has been rumbling on a while but this is the first i have heard of it, hardly broadcasted it have they? one wonders why. I appreciate that London, being in the state it is in regards to cramming as many people into a small a place as possible, is finding space some what at a premium. However, why not find somewhere to build a new Cemetery? They seem to find the space and money to build all these monstrous new housing estates that are overstretching the resources of towns like mine to the limit! Surely when you build new homes at this rate (and fill them just as quickly) Having to build new schools, Hospitals..... Cemeteries is part and parcel? or do they figure that these people have been dead over 'X' amount of years and 'we'll save some cash and just shove a few more in'! This is an absolute outrage!!! Do we not get any peace even in death now? I'd hate to think this is whats in store for me in 100 years time! Disgraceful.
Penninah >:(
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I agree with your suggestion that alternatives and new cemeteries are needed. There are plans for one not 6 miles from where I live but the proposal is being objected to because of the loss of greenbelt land.
http://www.your-northwood-hills.co.uk/#cemetry
However, cremation should also be considered. The families can then scatter the ashes to the 4 winds or in a special place, or they can be kept in an urn for the family to look after, many a grandparent is sitting on a mantle piece somewhere.
But also consider this. My father had been a funeral director for over 50 years. When he retired 3 years ago he had to decide what to do with a cupboard full of uncollected urns of ashes dating back several decades. In that whole time he had written to the families, arranged and carried out other funerals for them, kept in touch with them, reminded them on a regular basis that he still had their dear departed loved ones in storage. None were collected. Last year my parents left London and moved to Lincolnshire, my father felt duty bound to make one last effort to reunite the urns with their families but with little success. So what did he do? Moved to Lincolnshire and took them with him. Now what will I and my brothers do with them when my parents finally die and we have their house to clear? If he couldn't get them back to the families what chance do we have.
Yes this is a subject close to our hearts but we must also remember that when the plots were then and are today purchased it is on the terms of a lease and at then end of that term the land reverts back to the cemetery company. It is in your families interests to keep safe the deeds to the plots and update and transfer the ownership when elderly relatives die.
By all means write and complain to your MP's, local authorities and cemetery companies, join cemetery Friends associations and campaign for this not to happen, but for a lot of families when great aunti Flo and great uncle Jack have left this life they are often forgotten without a second thought.
But when you do discover a family plot though, do you then start visiting on a regular basis, place plants or flowers, remember their anniversaries? With families so far removed from their ancestors these days it's very often not logistically possible. Once you have a nice selection of photos they may never be visited again.
Going back to genealogy and us as genealogists, out of this country's population, we are a small group of people whose hobby does not appeal to everyone and likewise this re-use of graves will not interest, upset or anger a lot of the people.
Dawn
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There is no justification for this, no matter how hard some people may try to find some! Regardless to the fact these graves are no longer frequented. (Perhaps the line died out, the family emmigrated or simply that their existance is yet unkown to a living ancestor- maybe it would be an idea try and find the relations rather than sticking coloured tags on headstones! Whatever, It still doesnt make this alright, its disrespectful in the extreme! >:( >:(
Penninah
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Well said Penninah,
I echo your words entirely. If I were to find out that one of my ancestors were buried there only to find that their stone had been erased and people buried on top I'd be livid and heartbroken.
NO-ONE has the right to erase people no matter how long they've been dead for any reason. It is dispicable.
The dead were left to rest by their loving familys and they should still be resting in peace not being disturbed and forgotten just so the councils can make a quick buck.
Legs
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I have only just discovered that my grandma, who died when my dad was just a little boy, is buried in Manor Park Cemetery.
How can we stop these plans?How long have I got to make a journey from deepest Dorset to see if I can find her grave?
This is really sad news.......
Nanny Jan
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You really need to clarify if it is Manor Park or the City of London Cemetery, which is also in Manor Park. It is the C of L that has these plans. I have grandparents, parents and aunts and uncles in both cemetaries. I dare say a good many of my ancestors are there that I don't even know about. As long as they are not 'digging' people up and removing them, I am not too concerned. We need to understand that if this cemetary runs out of space alternatives will have to be found. This might mean cemetaries miles and miles away from the recently bereaved who need to visit graves. In the case of some elderly bereaved this could prevent them from visiting. I am also more concerned that the cemetary is able to be kept looking pleasant.With no income from new burials how long will residents be prepared to pay for upkeep. I do think the graves should be recorded and records accessable. Also, where do we draw the line as to when graves should be preserved? Leave all those anglo saxon graves, the pharos, roman graves........when is it ok to build on or remove bodies, whatever. I'm not sure what does everyone else think? Susan
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I don't think it is EVER right to remove bodies! It does not seem right to me, Graves are usually desecrated for the sake of a block of flats or a few ugly houses, sorry but i don't see how that is justified! Its been said a million times before but sadly it all boils down to money! Have the people who are behind this Manor Park business really made an effort to find living descendent's? Should they? I think so, if the nearest living relatives of these people don't mind what they are planning on doing then so be it, i still wholeheartedly disagree with the erasing of the names of the original occupants of the graves! I see on the website they have a list of who is buried there but alas it isn't indexed, i do realize this would cost a fair bit of money to do but surely it is a good idea?? After all they are the largest municipal cemetery in Europe. Most of my ancestors on my fathers side and on my daughters fathers side came from various parts of London and am pretty sure there are a few of them lingering there.... i can't check though can i, i don't have the time or financial resources to do so.... and if indeed there are some in there i would be livid if they did this to them! >:( Penninah
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I don't think it is EVER right to remove bodies! It does not seem right to me, Graves are usually desecrated for the sake of a block of flats or a few ugly houses, sorry but i don't see how that is justified!
But this is not being done for rebuilding, they are still graves.
Its been said a million times before but sadly it all boils down to money! Have the people who are behind this Manor Park business really made an effort to find living descendent's?
Well they'e doing what we are doing in reverse, is it easy?
Should they? I think so, if the nearest living relatives of these people don't mind what they are planning on doing then so be it, i still wholeheartedly disagree with the erasing of the names of the original occupants of the graves!
I think they should record them.
I see on the website they have a list of who is buried there but alas it isn't indexed, i do realize this would cost a fair bit of money to do but surely it is a good idea??
That depends, who pays? would the locals be happy to have it added to thier council tax? Money spent on the living in need is more important in my opinion.
After all they are the largest municipal cemetery in Europe. Most of my ancestors on my fathers side and on my daughters fathers side came from various parts of London and am pretty sure there are a few of them lingering there.... i can't check though can i, i don't have the time or financial resources to do so....
As I said, it might be difficult for future bereaved if they had to go a long way to a new cemetery.
My Parents, Grand Parents and several aunts and uncles are there to my knowledge. Some in the crematorium, It's an expensive job keeping them going.
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] and if indeed there are some in there i would be livid if they did this to them! >:( Penninah
[/color][/color] I am truly sorry you feel so hurt. Susan
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Wow, what a heated topic. I am not sure where I stand on this, but selling the markers is horrendous. I think the idea of a virtual cemetery is wonderful. It appears at this time I don't have any relatives buried in London (you never know what I might find) but I would be more than happy to send a letter or sign a petition. A solution here could help cemeteries, families, historians, etc. for years to come.
On a similar note: In finding my gg grandparents grave in a small Catholic cemetery in New Jersey, I was told I could be buried in the plot. Apparently, it is a family plot forever and after a certain amount of time (I think he said 60 years) the grave is open for family members.
Kathleen
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A 'virtual' cemetery already exisits at C of L. If you have a relative in the crematorium, you can have an entry similar to what you might have on a gravestone in a book of rememberance. At present you have to pay for this and the book is displayed on whatever anniversary you choose. I have used this facilitiy for family members who also have memorials in the gardens of rememberance. I live a long way from there now so I don't get there more than certain anniversaries. I think you can also view it at other times now, they were talking about scanning and computerising them some time ago. Maybe they could put the inscriptions from the graves on there as a compromise.
Susan
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>:(
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One of my uncles died aged 4 from Diphtheria in 1931. He was buried in one of the London cemetries in the children's section. My grandmother visited regularly, especially on his birthday, death date and Christmas. My sister went with her on one occasion, in the early 1970s, and they found the whole children's section had been covered with about 4 foot of earth and that new burials were already in place. All headstones had been removed and disposed of.
My sister said that our grandmother almost fainted when she saw what had happened. It was as if her son - who would always be a little boy to her - had never existed. So upsetting and so uncaring!
Monica
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Thats disgusting Monica that these people care so little!! >:( :'(