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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Saartje on Wednesday 05 July 06 00:11 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
I would be really grateful if someone could give me any information about a "stray" Morfey
I recently ordered a birth certificate for my great great grandmother. Her name was Ethel Lilian PENFOLD, and she was born in 1895, in Wye, East Ashford.
This gave me her parents names obviously :) .
Her father was listed as an Albert Henry PENFOLD, born circa 1863 in Rye.
Her mother was listed as an Ellen MORFEY. I believe she was born circa 1870 in Rye or Ripe. However, whilst I have had reasonable success on the Penfold side of things, I can't seem to find anything about her.
I can't find her in any of the census' except the 1901 where she was already married.
I can't find her birth certificate, or a marriage certificate.
I have found references to Morfeys in Peasmarsh, but nothing that seems to link in with her.
There may be variations on the spelling of her surname, but even trying that is not returning the results I need.
Thank you in advance for any assistance/ideas, etc that anyone can give me in this area.
Greetings
Sarah
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Hi Sarah
Quick question - does Ethel's birth certifcate name her mother as Ellen MORFEY or as Ellen PENFOLD formerly MORFEY?
Dave
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Hi Dave,
The certifcate gives Ellen PENFOLD formerly MORFEY.
According to the certificate I see the place they were living was Hastingleigh.
Thanks again
Sarah
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Hi again Sarah :)
The only possible I have found so far is...
1881 census - RG11/1026 Folio 59 p.36 - Hastings, Holy Trinity
8 Robertson Terrace
Ellen MORFEY Servant Unm 19 Cook Domestic b. Tillingham SSX
(one of 19 people listed in household of John Foster, a tax collector)
but the age is probably too far out? I can see her on the ancestry index in 1871 too - a look-up would place her with parents I should think, and rule her in or out.
Other than that all I can suggest is looking for Morley as that seems to be the most likely mistranscription.
You can trawl the complete BMD records quarter by quarter at...
http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/rectype/vital/freebmd/bmd.aspx
be sure to select the "complete" ones. Happy hunting!! ;)
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Hi Gougy, ;D
Thank you once again for your response, and suggestions. :) I saw the reference in the 1881 census, but was really unsure as to whether it was her.
I also tried scouring the Ancestry complete indexes for Morphy, Morphey, Murphy, Morley, without success, so far. Will give it another go, as I probably missed it.
Greetings
Sarah
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Have you got birth certificates for any of the other children to double check her surname?
There were dozens of variants of it on the Sussex Marriage Index.
I wonder if possibly they married after the birth of the first child? Have you looked onwards for it? All BMDs are free to search on ancestry.co.uk at the moment but make sure you choose the full version - not the FreeBMD one.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
I don't have other certificates personally, but I found my mum's 2nd cousin, and he lists the name as Morfey as well. He was unsure of the spelling because the certificate wasn't very clear, but my certificate seems to match/confirm that name. He can't find her either, so we're both a bit lost.
I think I have looked a good few years before their first child. Will try after 1891, and see what comes out of it... fingers crossed. Hopefully, if I can find Albert Penfold, her husband, I can find the link to her as well...
Thanks for responding :)
Greetings
Sarah
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It is odd as Susan is 10 in 1901 therefore she should have been born by 1891. No sign of any of them that I could find so I wondered if they were not yet a family unit. What happened to her. Do you know? There is a marriage for an Ellen Susan Morfee in 1909 ish - cannot remember the exact date - in Rye. That may be a complete red herring though.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
I also saw Ellen Susan Morfey, and thought maybe I had found her, but the name of her husband did not match up as far as I can tell. :(
Maybe it was the daughter of a brother of Ellen? I just don't know.
The only definite information I have is that two of their children: Ethel Lilian Penfold (Ethel was wrongly transcribed as Ellen in the census), and her brother Albert.
I have been searching through the complete BMD indexes, but haven't had much success yet.
Thanks again Andrea
Greetings
Sarah
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I am not sure if you have the earlier census records for Albert. Without the marriage to confirm his father's name these may not be correct.
1871 Rg10 1023 F91 p25 Cinque Ports Yard Rye
Henry Penfold 33 Ostler b Hawkhurst Kent
Mary Ann 33 b Rye
Maria 12
Mary Ann 10
Albert 8
Lois L 5 all b Rye
In 1881 he is a boarder in Kent - ag lab - but then.... in 1891 there is an Albert Penfold of the right age born Rye in prison in Kent. He is single. That is one of the things that made me wonder about the date of the marriage.
Of course this is all supposition and there is no proof it is him but unless there are two born in Rye at that time, which you can check, it seems likely.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
These are correct, I believe. :) The Sussex Penfolds have been quite widely researched, so he has not been quite as difficult to trace.
According to the 1891 census, he was a convict. (I wonder what he did?). It can't be the other Penfold from 1891 because he was too young according to the census. You are right, he must have married after 1891, and birthdates of some of the children must be out. What a mess. :o
Thank you for taking the time to look for me.
Sarah
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If you are still interested... The Hastingleigh Church Baptismal records have...
Ethel Lillian Penfold born 12 Mar 1895 baptised 14 April 1895 daughter of Albert Henry Penfold and Ellen Elizabeth nee Morfey m. 1871 Rye
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Hi Sarah,
I am a Morfey so know only too well that they have been a difficult lot to track down.
The Ellen Susan Morfey you mentioned earlier was my great grandmother who was married to Thomas in 1877, they did not have a daughter Ellen.
I can't immedately help with finding your Ellen but will send a PM to you should you wish to contact.
Ian
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Hi Lesley,
Thank you for that information. It's really useful. One question, does the ... m. 1871 Rye = their marriage year and place?
Unfortunately I cannot get to Hastingleigh Church to lookup the records easily. Are these available online at all?
Hi Ian, Thank you for your response. I will mail you.
Kind regards
Sarah
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the marriage certificate number at Rye is 1871 / Quarter2/ vol 2b / page 17
BUT - before you order it
....I think I am now about to throw a spanner in the works. I don't now think Ellen Elizabeth is a Morfey.
and this is because in
1901 census
Albert H Penfold aged 38 Agricultural Waggoner born Rye Sussex
Ellen E Penfold 31 born Rye Sussex
Susan E Penfold 10 born Playden, Kent
Mabel J Penfold 7 born Ashford
Ellen L Penfold 6 born Hastingleigh
Albert E Penfold 3 born Frittenden
Thomas F Penfold 1month born Willesborough
on looking for the 1891 cenus.... the ONLY match I can find for Ellen & Susan is as follows...
1891 census
Raiton, Playden
Ellen Lacey aged 21 born Rye (and is married but no spouse with her)
Susan E Lacey aged 5months born Playden
also Lily Weller aged 9 a boarder and scholar aged 9
so I checked marriages and ...
1886 Q4 Rye, between Ellen Elizabeth Leadbeter & Tom Lacey. The same page as a marriage of Emily Weller & Charles Payne (so they may be something to do with Lily Weller the boarder)
so this would indicate that Ellen Elizabeth Lacey nee Leadbeter could become Mrs Penfold somewhere between 1891 census and 1893 birth of her daughter Mabel Jane Penfold at West Ashford Reg District. 1893 Q3 2a /803 and perhaps when Albert Henry Penfold registered the birth and was asked for mothers name, he gave his own mother's name rather than his daughter's name. OR that he had a fling with Ellen Elizabeth Morfey which produced a daughter and Albert Henry Penfold brought the child up with his new partner Ellen Elizabeth Leadbetter/Lacey.
Susan Ellen Lacey is registered as born Rye District in 1890 Q4, there is no Susan E Penfold registered at all.
This would seem to confirm that the woman that is the mum of Ethel Lilian Penfold on the census is infact born Ellen Elizabeth Leadbetter and not Morfey but formerly Lacey. If this is the case.....
The 1881 Census
George Leadbetter 32 Fishmonger born Rye is her father
Sarah Ann Leadbetter 34 wife born Rye
Eliza Leadbetter 9 born Rye
Ellen Leadbetter 6 born Rye
Emily leadbetter 4 born Iden
William H Leadbetter 2 born Hastings.
(by 1891 George is widowed, married again to Eliza Down in Q2 1885 Hastings - and the Leadbetter and Down families have merged with Eliza bringing 4 of her own children to the family, and then having 3 more with George.)
(Sarah Ann Leadbetter had died 1884 Q4 Hastings, she was born Sarah Ann Saunter and married George Leadbetter in 28 Jul 1867 in Rye Registration District. Sarah's parents were Henry Saunter a carpenter and Jane Fuller his wife. Her parents are living with the large Saunter family in 1861. Her parents were Richard & Emma Fuller. Henry Saunter's ancestry goes way back and someone has published it on ancestry.com)
This does not explain why there is a marriage between Albert Henry Penfold and Ellen Morfey in 1871 Rye, unless these are infact Albert Henry Penfold's own parents or at least might be his Dad and may be a 2nd wife,
as Albert Henry Penfold should have been born about 1864 ish.
However.... I cannot find a marriage between Penfold and Lacey or Leadbetter or Morfey in the 1890's
Unless Ellen Elizabeth Lacey had divorced Tom Lacey, or he had died, and I can't see any record that he died in England, it looks to me like Ellen Elizabeth & Albert Henry Penfold were not married to each other.
Or to complicate things even further .... perhaps the 1901 census wife Ellen Elizabeth Penfold did what her father had done and married a man who already had a family as she did and the families merged. This might mean that Ethel Lilian Penfold's mum really was an Ellen Elizabeth Morfey! - but i doubt it. It could be worth ordering the birth cert for mabel jane penfold to see what the mother's maiden name is on that, and also Albert E 's birth cert. As they were the two children born either side of Ethel Lilian. Yes it will cost £14 for the two certificates but it might clarify who the mum is if Albert Henry Penfold filled in those forms properly.
Mabel Jane Penforld 1893 Q3 West Ashford Dist. 2a /803
Albert Edward Penfold 1898 Q2 Cranbrook Dist. 2a / 785
Thomas Frederick Penfold 1901 Q1 East Ashford 2a/ 866
...............
getting back to Albert Henry Penfold
1891 census
Albert Penfold aged 28 (single) profession Baker, is a Convict at HM Convict Borstal, St Margaret, Chatham.
1881 census
Albert H Penfold aged 18 (single) Ag Lab boarder at house next to Rose & Crown, Old Romney, Kent
1871 census
Cinque Ports Yard, Rye
Henry Penfold aged 33 Ostler born Hawkhurst Kent (son of Henry Penfold & Maria Jenner married Hawkhurst 25 Oct 1829)
Mary Ann Penfold aged 33 wife born Rye Sussex
Maria Penfold aged 12 born Rye (Q1 Rye)
Mary Ann Penfold aged 10 born Rye
Albert Penfold aged 8 born Rye
Lois Penfold aged 5 born Rye
Elizabeth Penfold aged 2 born Rye
Eliza Penfold aged 3months born Rye
(Mary Ann Buckland married 1859 Q1 Rye 2b/13 to Henry Penfold)
Certainly things are not straightforward in this mysterious family tree. I will delete the reference to Morfey as a maiden name in the Hastingleigh website as it cannot refer to Ethel Lilian's parents. her dad was too young for a marriage in 1871 if her only born 1863/4 ish.
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Hello,
I am trying to gain any info. on a Rosina (Rosa) Morfey from Peasmarsh/Rye who married a sidney Herbert Dodd(Staffs.) late 1800'2 I think. Any info on either the Morfey family or Dodd's would be appreciated.
Katie
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Can you give a bit more information Katie? Have you found them on any census records? If you can quote one that will help a lot.
Andrea
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There is a marriage in Q1 1912 Wolstanton 6b/141 between Sarah R Morfey & Sidney H Dodd.
and they had Ronald E Dodd 1912 Congleton
Leslie H Dodd in 1914 Wolstanton
Joyce Dodd 1915 Wolstanton
Peggy H Dodd 1918 Lancaster
Norma S Dodd 1921 Wolstanton
Sybil R Dodd 1923 Wolstanton
Maurice L Dodd 1924 Wolstanton
Patricia M Dodd 1927 Wolstanton
Is this them?
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Hello LesleyY
I have sent you a PM today, not sure if you have received this?
Kind regards
Katie X
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I wonder if you came to a conclusion with this line.
I too share this line and give you some help
Suzannah
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I'm looking for information on the Thomas Frederick Penfold b1901 mentioned on this site. Believe he may have had a partner and children (not married) in 1928-1930 around Gillingham and Nonington area but need to prove this.
Dennis
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How about this as a possible birth for Ellen Elizabeth - not a Morfey but Morley
Births Dec 1874
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MORLEY Ellen Elizabeth Eastry 2a 854
Eastry doesn't cover Rye where the census says she is from and 4 years younger
Dennis
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Ellen Elizabeth Morley died Q2 1878 aged 3 in Eastry RD, so she must be a Morley not a Morfey.
With regard to your request for information on Thomas Frederick Penfold's kids: Do you have a name for any of them?
Possibly there could be a baptism record in the local area, however c.1930s records are often still stored at the local church, though some parishes will have forwarded their baptism books to Maidstone archives.
When TFP died in 1991 did he leave a will? If so that might specifically name his children as beneficiaries.
If it is a case of a rumoured liason, and the children likely to have been registered with their mother's name but not the father's, then you have a truly difficult task determining who the kids were, without the mother's name.
Perhaps TFP and partner were witnesses to someone elses wedding, or registered a business together, or there might have been some legal case involving both that would give you clues to work with.
Was TFP already married? Did his wife file for divorce naming the 'other woman' in the case as co-respondent?
If the child/children were registered with surname Penfold and the registrations also list mother's maiden name, then you could by process of elimination check each and every child with surname Penfold with birth registered in the area, then cross check for a marriage between the Penfold and mother's maiden name. Any with a marriage before the birth you can eliminate, then whittle the list down to as few as possible that way, and order the certificates for those that are still possibilities. Then check for their own marriages, order those certificates and see if the father is named on the marriage certs. It will be an expensive exercise, but that depends on how desperate you are to find the missing kids.
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Hi Lesley
I do have the birth certificates for the children and I already have the ancestry/history of the mother Phyllis Lawrence (she married a Stephen Saunter b circ 1902 Ticehurst) before leaving him to take up and have children with TFP/FTP. The birth certs list mother under Penfold formerly Lawrence (not mentioning Saunter) Name of father in oder of birth cert dates i) Frederick Penfold ii) Frederick Thomas Penfold iii) Thomas Frederick Penfold. Fathers occupation farm labourer. I can find no marriage between Lawrence/Saunter and Penfold. The children were put into care under the age of 4 so they did/do not have any details of the father.
I am currently wondering whether the Saunter connection to Thomas Frederick Penfold 1901 may be significant in that this may be how they met?
I also have some addresses from the birth certs which may help if someone has details of other Penfold addresses 1925-1930. Part of the addresses: Speke's Bottom, Gillingham; Star Lane, Gillingham; Gooseberry Hall, Nonington, Eythrone.
Dennis
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Did you order the birth cert for 1917 Frederick J Penfold born in Croydon, mother's maiden name Lawrence?
I wonder if Phyllis knew TFP BEFORE she married Stephen Saunter.
Had child No.1 Frederick J. [with TFP perhaps)
Married Stephen and had 4 children with him.
Vera Vivienne Rhoda Saunter b.1922 Cranbrook, she married Cyril Seymour Huggett - they lived in Kent.
Her story is on the BBC website http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/40/a2989740.shtml
Stanley Stephen Saunter b.25 May 1923 Cranbrook d.Dec 1998 Mansfield Notts, he was married.
Peggy Vivan Saunter b.10 Jul 1924 East Ashford d. Feb 2004 Staffordshire, she married Alexr Rankin in 1943.
Rudolph F P Saunter b.1927 East Ashford, and I can't find any sign of him. He was very young, and perhaps also adopted out with a name change in the process.
Then Phyllis gets back with TFP and 3 more children arrive in quick succession, bringing the total to 8.
Quite a handful, and if TFP then jumped ship or either was taken ill for example then that might explain why the little ones were placed for adoption.
It's just a theory.
Have you contacted any of the children of the older offspring of Phyllis, incase their parent told them how come the family ended up split, or indeed if they know anything about TFP?
Frederick J Penfold would have been a teenager when the break up was taking place, Vera would have been approaching 10.
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Hi Lesley
I have details of the Saunter family. Phyllis pregnant with Rudolph when she took up with Penfold - Rudolph alive but knows nothing about his parents as he was put in care along with the three children Phyllis had with Penfold. All three Penfold children now dead, but by all accounts also knew nothing. I am in touch with one of the children she had with the person she went to when she left Penfold but they knew nothing of her past children/marriages/liaisons - this Penfold is a mystery and difficult to trace because of reversing his name on the only evidence we have and no age to work to. Not sure if any records would be available of workers in Kent in 1928-1930 - as he was a farm labourer he may have been cash in hand - if records are available where would the be kept? There are the addresses given on the birth certs, might these be workers cottages rented out? Again problem of finding records after such a time.
Dennis
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Yes Farm laboureres were often allocated cottages tied to the farms they worked on. Perhaps there is a remote chance that one of those farms may have kept details of employees from the 1920's/1930's. Unlikely, but not impossible.
At a guess the best chances of identifying him will be the social services records surrounding the adoptions, and possibly Wills of other family memebers if there were any around that time. Perhaps TFP's parents or grand parents left a will which identifies by name their descendants.
I really son't know what else to suggest at this time. More should become available when the 100 years has passed since the adoptions.
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My 2x great grandmother was Ellen Susan Baker born 1849, who married three times, 1st William Leadbetter, 2nd Thomas Morfey 3rd Edward Smith Pope. Ellen and Thomas' son Thomas born 1874 is my family line, young Thomas(my great grandfather) changing his surname to Smith hindered the tracing of the family for awhile. Have managed to get back to Elijah Morfey born 1803, any further help in tracing the family line even further would be much appreciated. Thanks
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I would be really grateful if someone could give me any information about a "stray" Morfey
I recently ordered a birth certificate for my great great grandmother. Her name was Ethel Lilian PENFOLD, and she was born in 1895, in Wye, East Ashford.
This gave me her parents names obviously :) .
Her father was listed as an Albert Henry PENFOLD, born circa 1863 in Rye.
Her mother was listed as an Ellen MORFEY. I believe she was born circa 1870 in Rye or Ripe. However, whilst I have had reasonable success on the Penfold side of things, I can't seem to find anything about her.
Re: MORFEY born in Rye or Ripe, Sussex
« Reply #12 on: Friday 03 October 08 10:50 BST (UK) »
The Ellen Susan Morfey you mentioned earlier was my great grandmother who was married to Thomas in 1877, they did not have a daughter Ellen.
Not sure if this has been resolved by now, so apologies if I am duplicating information:
Original post wanted to know about Ellen Morfey born 1870 Rye, Sussex.
She was born Ellen Elizabeth Leadbetter to a William Leadbetter and Ellen Susan Baker. William and Ellen married 5th September, 1869, Parish Church, Rye. William was a labourer and his father was named as William Leadbetter, labourer. Ellen Susan Baker's father was John Baker, shipwright.
Ellen Elizabeth took the name Morfey after her mother married for a second time to Thomas Morfey on 20th March, 1877, Register Office in Rye. Thomas was a widower and Ellen Susan was down as Susan Leadbetter, widow. Not sure she was a widow as haven't managed to find a death for William yet :-\
Ellen Susan Morfey, formerly Leadbetter, nee Baker then went on to marry Edward Pope Smith in 1909 Rye after Thomas Morfey died.