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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Charlie1 on Friday 23 June 06 17:06 BST (UK)

Title: ALIAS COMPLETED
Post by: Charlie1 on Friday 23 June 06 17:06 BST (UK)
I have found reasearching the background of my ggrandfather very challenging.  I think I have made some headway but I wondered if anyone can see obvious errors in my research ....I'm beginning to feel 'I can't see the wood for the trees'.
In short, Charles Ringrose had no history before the 1891 census.  His attestation papers for the RFA list his next of kin as Mary Ringrose, sister 62 Feather St, Kingsland Rd .... (non existent).  John ? brother ..Unknown, Mrs. Caroline Ward, sister, Stoke Newington.  I have traced Caroline, but she was never a Ringrose. She married Joseph Ward in 1880, and her maiden name was Capling.  However, Caroline's mother was Mary Eliza Ringrose, married JOhn Fredrick Capling in 1859. (John F. seems to have no records after 1861) The obvious seems to be that  Eliza Capling remarried, but I can find no evidence of this and in 1881, she lived in Bethnal Green with her two remaining sons, John and Charles Catling.  I can't find any record of any of these Caplings (apart from Caroline) after 1881 ... or on the 1871 census.  Is it too much of a leap to assume that Charles, for some reason, is using his mothers maiden name... an alias?
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: MaryA on Friday 23 June 06 17:41 BST (UK)
Sorry to say I feel like I'm in the middle of a fairy story here, if I check for Charles Ringrose in the 1891 census (which you mention) I find 34 of them and have not a clue which is yours.  In all this you don't give any birth dates or places. 

You mention Kingsland Road is non-existent? I don't understand that.

Who is "Eliza" Capling? Is this somebody different to the Mary Eliza Capling? and if so how does she fit in and are the children John and Charles Catling or Capling?  or is it just mistranscribed on the 1881 census?

Why would Charles be using his mother's maiden name? What was her maiden name and have you searched for him using it?

What are the details of Mary Eliza and John F Capling in 1861?

I'm sorry for all the questions, but I can't follow without a few facts. 

Can you at least give us the details from the 1891 census to make a start from.
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: liverpool annie on Friday 23 June 06 17:57 BST (UK)


Mary - I think maybe a tidy up is in order !

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,133233.msg699107.html#msg699107

Charlie - lets forget everything you think you know and start afresh ....... !!

Tell us basic details like date of birth etc and lets see what we can do to help !

Annie  :)
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Arranroots on Friday 23 June 06 18:10 BST (UK)
Well spotted Annie - i had forgotten all about this family!

Anyone hoping to help please be aware that a lot of work has already been done on the two other threads.

By all means try again, but just to save repeating look-ups that have already been done.

kind regards, Arranroots  ;)

Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: MaryA on Friday 23 June 06 18:58 BST (UK)
Thanks both, seems there's more than one more posting too .........
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Valda on Friday 23 June 06 19:40 BST (UK)
Start with

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,132982.0.html

Piecing together what has been written on this thread

Marriages Sep 1859
Catling  John Frederick     Bethnal Gn  1c 583 
Ringrose  Mary Eliza     Bethnal Gn.  1c 583

and

Marriages Jun 1880
Ward  Joseph     Shoreditch  1c 185
Catling  Caroline Sarah G    Shoreditch  1c 185   


1861 census RG9 194 folio 37
25 Bowling Green Lane Clerkenwell St James  Middlesex   
John F Catling 26 St Lukes, Middlesex, Head Married Printer
Eliza Catling 22  Hertfordshire,  Wife  Married
Caroline Catling 5mths  Clerkenwell, Middlesex, Daughter   

Birth
December 1860 Clerkenwell Volume 1b page 514
Caroline Sarah Grace Catling

1871 census RG10 462 folio 4
24 Mary Street St Leonard Shoreditch  London 
Mary Catlin 32  Hertfordshire, Head  Married Charwoman
Caroline Catlin 10 Clerkenwell Middlesex Daughter
John Catlin 8 Clerkenwell Middlesex Son
Mary Catlin 5 Shoreditch Middlesex Daughter
Charles Catlin Bethnal Green 3 Son

1881 census RG11 395 folio 92
Joy Street Shoreditch  London   
Mary Catling 42 Hertfordshire,  Head Married Charwoman
John Catling 18 Clerkenwell, Middlesex, Son
Chas. Catling 13 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, Son 
   

What information does Sarah Caroline Grace Catling give about her father on her marriage? Does it match the information given on the 1861 census? If it does, along with the match of the 1891 census address with the address given on Charles Ringrose's army papers (you need to prove the marriage is the same couple as on the 1891 census), I would think that would present strong evidence for them being brother and sister- though not necessarily full siblings

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Valda on Friday 23 June 06 20:15 BST (UK)
The Catlings were keen on names

Births Mar 1868
Catling  Charles Christian H     Bethnal Green  1c 247

Births Mar 1866
Catling  Mary E E     Shoreditch  1c 86

Births Mar 1863
Catling John William Viner   Clerkenwell 1b 589

Marriages Dec 1886
Catling  John William V    Islington  1b 494   
Hall  Mary Ann     Islington  1b 494   

Marriages Mar 1886
Catling  Mary Eliza E     Bethnal Green  1c 352   
SALMON  John Josiah     Bethnal Green  1c 352

1891 census RG12 249 folio 110
64 Nicholas Street Shoreditch  London   
John J Salmon 29 Bethnal Green, London,  Head Married Railway Carman
Mary E E Salmon 25 Shoreditch, London, Wife Married Tinfoil Stamper

1891 census RG12 186 folio 74
17 Dunn Street Hackney  London   
John W Catling 28 Clerkenwell, London, Head  Married Bricklayer's Labourer
Mary A Catling 23 Holloway, London,  Wife Married

1901 census RG13 275 folio 86
26 Nicholas Street Shoreditch  London 
John J Salmon 38 Hackney, London, Head  Widower Railway Carman

John and or wife I can't find on the 1901 census.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Charlie1 on Friday 23 June 06 21:47 BST (UK)
Apologies, my post does come over as confused ... because I am!

My grandmother hardly knew her father Charles Ringrose.   No one ever talked of him and he was very difficult to trace because there was web of dis information around his origins.  (Rumours in the family said he died in WW1 and so on, but this was fabrication)  There are no photographs and no birth certificate.  He appeared to have no history other than a record of him being in the Royal Field Artillery.  We found a reference to him in the 1891 census based at Woolwich.  Before this date there is no record.  His marriage certificate states that his father was John Ringrose, a master painter,  but again no evidence.  The only hard facts we have to go on is the mention of his two sisters and a brother on his attestation papers.  We cant find Mary Ringrose (sister) or John (Brother).  THE only lead is Mrs. Caroline Ward (sister)of Dunn St. Stoke Newington who he lists as of next of kin.   Caroline's maiden name was Catling, so I searched from there.  The 1861 census puts Caroline with parents John Fredrick Catling and Eliza his wife.  According to BMD (ancestry . com) John Fredrick Catling married Mary Eliza Ringrose. 
In 1871, same family +  children John, Charles and Mary, 1881 no father present, but using Mary (not Eliza), John and Charles... same year of  birth, same place of birth.  I have not been able to find any Catling I have mentioned after 1881. 

Thankyou all who have offered advice.  I'm taking a step back from this research until the fog clears ...

Regards Charlie



Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: casalguidi on Friday 23 June 06 21:55 BST (UK)
I think Valda's got it all sorted out for you Charlie ;D

Casalguidi :)
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: liverpool annie on Friday 23 June 06 22:02 BST (UK)




I was just going to say the same thing !! :)

Annie  :)
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: MaryA on Friday 23 June 06 22:07 BST (UK)
Very well done Valda!

Mary  :D :D
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Valda on Saturday 24 June 06 09:03 BST (UK)
Charlie

I do think you need the details of Caroline Sarah Grace Catling's marriage.
1. This marriage needs to prove Caroline was the daughter of John Frederick Catling (if the marriage isn't sufficient then you will need her birth certificate as well - luckily her combination of names means there can be no confusion that the 1860 birth reference and the 1880 marriage reference are the same Caroline)
2. The marriage also needs to prove this is the right Caroline Ward the same one living at the 1891 census address given on Charles' army papers.
However you do have Charles' other potential sibling John William Viner Catling at the same address '17 Dunn Street Hackney' on the 1891 census so even without the final proof of Caroline Sarah Grace's marriage details it feels very much like a 'done deal' as far as Catling to Ringrose for your Charles is concerned.

Once you've proved Caroline Sarah Grace Ward nee Catling was the sister of Charles Ringrose/Charles Christian H. Catling, to your satisfaction, (and you've been kept busy finding what ultimately happened to John Frederick and his wife Eliza Mary nee Ringrose) this might be Eliza Mary on the 1851 census (her marriage details will obviously help).

1851 census HO107 1711 folio 380
Hertingfordbury Road Hertford St Andrew  Hertfordshire   
John Ringrose 60  Bugden, Huntingdonshire,  Head Married Tailor
Caroline Ringrose 62  Bristol, Somerset,  Wife  Married
Hannah Ringrose 39  Little Amwell, Hertfordshire,  Daughter Married
Eliza Ringrose 12  Hertford, Hertfordshire,  Daughter 
William F Ringrose 10  Hertford, Hertfordshire,  Grandson

and possibly the same family
1861 census RG9 247 folio 15
15 York Street Shoreditch St Leonard  Middlesex   
William Ringrose 43  Hertford, Hertfordshire,  Head Married Tailor
Hannah Ringrose 48  Hertford, Hertfordshire, Wife 
William Ringrose 20?(30)  Shoreditch, Middlesex, Son Tailor
Charles Ringrose 4  Shoreditch, Middlesex,  Son 

1871 census RG10 466 folio 31
2 Labernam Terrace St Leonard Shoreditch  London   
William Ringrose 54  Hertfordshire, Head Married Tailor
Susan Ringrose 57 Hertfordshire, Wife  Married
Charles Ringrose 15  London, Middlesex,  Son  Unmarried Butcher

On the 1881 census William's wife's name is Susannah.

but
1841 census HO107 707/5 folio 23 page 7
Allerton Street St Leonard Shoreditch  Middlesex 
William Ringrose 20 Middlesex Tailor
Hannah Ringrose 24  Middlesex
Mary Ringrose 16  Middlesex
William Ringrose 4  Middlesex

(perhaps on this census the children's ages were mistakenly given in months not years? - still doesn't quite work as Mary Eliza was older than 16 months on the June 1841 census)

MARY ELIZA RINGROSE 
Christening:  24 FEB 1839   Saint Andrews, Hertford, Hertford
Father:  WILLIAM RINGROSE 
Mother:  HANNAH 

Births Mar 1839
Ringrose  Mary Eliza     Hertford  6 480

Marriages Mar 1839
RINGROSE  William     Ware  6 645
DEARDS  Hannah    Ware  6 645   

WILLIAM RINGROSE 
HANNAH DEARDS 
Marriage:  06 JAN 1839   Great Amwell, Hertford

Births Mar 1841
RINGROSE  William Frederic[hk]    Shoreditch  2 389

WILLIAM FREDERICK RINGROSE 
Birth:  15 FEB 1841   
Christening:  30 JAN 1842   Saint John The Baptist, Shoreditch, London
Father:  WILLIAM RINGROSE 
Mother:  SUSANNAH 

so plenty to work out further with Ringroses.

Catlings seem less confusing

JOHN FREDERICK CATLING 
Birth:  28 NOV 1836   
Christening:  09 JAN 1837   Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London,
Father:  JOHN CATLING 
Mother:  SARAH

Siblings- full IGI entries will give birth dates

SARAH ELIZABETH CATLIN Christening: 24 JUN 1838 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
SARAH ELIZABETH CATLING Christening: 18 OCT 1841 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
WILLIAM HENRY CATLING Christening: 15 APR 1844 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London

EDWARD WILLIAM CATLING   
Birth:  11 DEC 1833   
Christening:  24 AUG 1834   Saint Andrew, Holborn, London
Father:  JOHN CATLING 
Mother:  SARAH 

1841 census HO107 705/3 folio 6 page 25
Nottingham Place St Leonard Shoreditch  Middlesex   
John Catling 45  Middlesex Book maker
Sarah Catling 36  Middlesex
Edward Catling 7  Middlesex
John Catling 5  Middlesex

1851 census HO107 1537 folio 298
2 Nottingham Place Shoreditch  Middlesex   
John Catling 55  St Giles, Middlesex, Head  Married Backmaker?
Sarah Catling 46 St Giles, Middlesex,  Wife Married
Edward Wm Catling 17  St Luke, Middlesex,  Son  Errand Boy
Jn Fredrick Catling 15  St Luke, Middlesex, Son Errand Boy
Sarh Elizabeth Catling 9 Shoreditch, Middlesex,  Daughter 
Wm Henry Catling 7  Shoreditch, Middlesex,  Son 
Thomas Vince Catling  2  Shoreditch, Middlesex,  Son 

1861 census RG9 247 folio 48
15 Labernam Terrace Shoreditch  Middlesex   
Sarah G Catling 58  St Giles, Middlesex,  Head Widow Charwoman or Chain woman?
Sarah Elizth Catling 20  Shoreditch, Middlesex, Daughter  milliner
William Henry Catling 17 Shoreditch, Middlesex,  Son   Office Boy
Thomas Vince Catling 13  Shoreditch, Middlesex, Servant Errand Boy

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Charlie1 on Sunday 25 June 06 11:15 BST (UK)
Thankyou all, especially Valda.  I have passed the information onto another family member.  I thought a fresh approach was needed. Frankly, the Ringroses were beginning to drive me to distraction so I'm concentrating on the Davis side for a while.   

Regards Charlie
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Hotspur on Friday 20 October 06 13:40 BST (UK)
Hi Charlie1, I am new to Rootschat so I hope that you will bear with me. I had been researching John Catling and tripped over Valda's very helpful research relevant to the Ringroses, from your perspective and the Catlings, from mine. It filled in much of my family connections and in particular, seemed to indicate that John Viner Catling, born c1818 was not my GGGf whereas the father of John Frederick Catling who married Mary Eliza Ringrose, another John Catling, born c1796, most probably was.
It seems that both Johns married Sarahs, thus the confusion on my part. This goes some way to explaining why I had been stuck at that point. My GGf, William Henry Catling, b1844, appears in the family group from the 1851 Census. Sarah G Catling,born c1805, thus would have been my GGGm and her maiden name, from Thomas Viner (not Vince) Catling's birth cert dated 1848 which I have, was Gardner. They were shown as living at 2 Nottingham Place, Shoreditch which co-relates.
St Leonard's Shoreditch was a strong focal point for the Catlings, many of whom I guess were related in some way. I have a list of over 46 between about 1770 and 1890 at that church alone.
I am now seeking details about John and Sarah, John Frederick's parents. If you or anyone else can help, I would be most grateful.
Regards, Hotspur
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Arranroots on Friday 20 October 06 13:47 BST (UK)
Hi Hotspur

Welcome to Rootschat!  :)

How wonderful if you have found a link.  I hope Charlie1 can help you out.

If you get no further after a few days, you could try posting a separate request which should attract a wider audience.

kind regards, Arranroots  ;)

Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Hotspur on Friday 20 October 06 15:56 BST (UK)
Hi Arranroots,
Thanks for your welcome and advice. I am still familiarising myself with the layout of this site.
I will wait for a reaction from Charlie1 but will post again after the weekend (no computer access) as you suggest, when I figure out how to do so.
Best wishes,
Hotspur
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Valda on Friday 20 October 06 20:39 BST (UK)
John Catling 
Sarah Gardner 
Marriage:  04 FEB 1833   St Andrew's, Holborn, London

Regards

Valda
 
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Charlie1 on Monday 23 October 06 10:27 BST (UK)
Hi,

Its great to hear from you.  Yes I can help.  I have John Frederick Catling's marriage certificate.  I have not got any information on John Viner Catling apart from the certificate.   He was a printer by trade.   If you would like a copy your very welcome.  Caroline Catling / Ward has decendants but I've not found them.  I have family working on it.

Apologies for late response I've had problems with my internet connection
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Charlie1 on Monday 23 October 06 16:05 BST (UK)
Hi Hotspur

Details on John Frederick Catling's marriage certificate reads,

St Bartholomew's Church, parish of St. Bartholomew, Bethnal Green.

10th August 1859, aged 24, printer, 32 Eli Street, father - John Viner Catling, bookmaker.

married, Mary Eliza Ringrose, aged 21, 1 Upper Somerford Street, father William John Ringrose - tailor.

Witnesses: Christian Keller, Sarah Catling.

Regards

Charlie
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Hotspur on Tuesday 24 October 06 21:22 BST (UK)
Hi Charlie, Just back on the computer after a long weekend in Eaton Socon, Cambridgeshire. Thanks for your very informative reply and I am indebted also to Valda for an additional piece of the jigsaw regarding John and Sarah's marriage in 1833. The Christian name of Viner crops up as a strong thread through my families ancestors and may have steered me off course with researching John Viner Catling. He appears on my GGf William Henry Catling's marriage cert, dated 17.2.1868 as his father, occupation cooper. William's wife is yet another Sarah, Poultney. That marriage took place in St Sepulchre, Northampton and my Gf Roland Newcomen Catling was born in Kingsthorpe, just to the north. I had assumed that John Viner C, born c1818 who married a Sarah Brown on 25.12.1842 was the correct connection, but from Valda's 1851 census data, the John Catling aged 55 listed would have been born around 1796. He too married a Sarah and my GGf, WHC is listed as their son at the same address, when he was 7. The other son, Thomas is in fact Viner, not Vince as scrutiny of the written entry reveals. A backmarker was an older term for a cooper.
I was thinking of obtaining this John/Sarah's marriage cert but the listings start in 1837, three years after they wed. Any suggestions as to identifying the  references for that cert would be appreciates - I am relatively new to this research which nevertheless is fast becoming addictive.
I would be glad of a copy of John Frederick Catling's marriage certificate. You might like a copy of William Henry's as attached ( I hope !).  By the way, he was my GGf's older brother, from those census entries and our ancestors are indeed connected through Mary Eliza Ringrose' marriage. If you are interested, my family tree is on GenesReunited - possibly yours is also.  Regards, Hotspur  (Peter)
Confusing!
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Valda on Wednesday 25 October 06 05:59 BST (UK)
Deaths Mar 1856
Catling  John Viner     Shoreditch  1c 132

This webpage will give you information on what you can find in parish registers for marriages before the start of civil registration.

http://www.kenaud.dircon.co.uk/parish.htm

The marriage register for St. Andrew's Holborn will be at the London Metropolitan Archives.

Regards

Valda
Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Charlie1 on Wednesday 25 October 06 09:06 BST (UK)
Many thanks for your reply.

I will send John Frederick''s marriage certificate as soon as possible.  I don't have a scanner at home but I have a very helpful son who will scan the certificate for me at the weekend. 

Valda has posted some helpful information about where to find the relevant info for marriage registration pre 1837.  I have never been to the Metropolitan Archives so I'm afraid I'm not much help.  I went to the National Archives earlier this year to research my Ggf's military record.   What a great place!  THere's so much to research, I had a hard time keeping focussed.  I will be going back to finish it.  I'm a bit of a novice myself when it comes to research.  I did a lot at Uni but I am out of practice.

I had already found a referrence to John Viner Catling and Sarah Gardner on Ancestry- Pallot's Marriage Index,  but they are only signatures - no other information.  I've tried the IGI but I cant find anything there.

In the mean time, I'll post any information I find on this site.  It is not an easy process.  My Ggf Charlie Catling - was the 'black sheep' of the family and few people knew his background.  If there was trouble, he certainly knew how to find it.  I am grateful to all those who have helped me research the family.  Your post has motivated me to persevere with the research.
I have found that I am becoming more interested in research background information, ... Shoreditch in the 1830's ...and so on.

I am so pleased that you mentioned the term backmaker.  I had been reading it as bookmaker.  It thought it was something to do with printing!

Thankyou again ... will send certificate soon as possible


Charlie
 

Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Hotspur on Wednesday 25 October 06 10:05 BST (UK)
Hi Charlie, Thanks for your reply. I will keep this short as my first attempt to post it failed and I am short of time. Sorry about the marriage cert file size - will do better!
As regards Charles the 'Black Sheep', if this attachment works it might help your research. I will keep in touch with anything new, meantime look forward to hearing from you again. Regards, Peter

Title: Re: ALIAS
Post by: Hotspur on Wednesday 25 October 06 10:09 BST (UK)
Hi Valda,  You are a veritable mine of information. Many thanks for your last guidance about the Parish Registers. Regards, Peter