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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Sandra Parker on Friday 23 June 06 08:18 BST (UK)
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I wonder if anyone knows anything about Wilhelmina Vondervelden, (various spelling depending on which member of the family or which form was being filled in!) & Peter Schmitt, lived at 8 Ely Place, Mile End. in the late 1850's. They had sons Rudolph, (07/11/1862 born 8 Ely Place,Mile End New Town, Whitechapel) Frederick & Patrick, (I think they were born earlier). The family moved to Tonbridge Wells by 1881. (1881 census)
I am really interested in information before 1871. I'm hoping this will help us crack our GGrandfather, Gustave Van der Velden's brickwall prior to his 1868 marriage. We have plenty of info for after that time in our part of van der Velden family.
Thanks
Sandra
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Hi
Here they are in the 1871 census
Peter Smith, head, age 48, builders labourer born Germany
Wilemina, wife, age 46, hawker born Germany
Rudolf, son, age 9, scholar born Whitechapel
RG10 932
folio 5 page 2
Tonbridge, Kent
I will work backwards now and see what else I can find for you.
Nicky
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Thanks for that Nicky,
Now all I need is to find out exactly where in Germany, Wilhemina came from, then I'll know exactly where in Germany her family came from, and by association, my GGrandfather, then I can get his birth details ............
Oh well, I can but hope - and dream of a minor miracle! ::)
But I really appreciate your help in helping me clamber a bit further up this elusive tree.
Cheers
Sandra
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Hi Sandra
I suspect you already have this, but it helps to show that Peter and Wilhelmina were probably married in the 1861 census (I had some doubts that there may have been an earlier marriage, due to the big age gap with the children & finding a possible Wilhelmina with a different surname!).
Birth
Rudolph SMITH
Dec q 1862
Whitechapel
Vol 1c Page 373
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I wonder whether this is Patrick?
Birth
Patrick August SMITH
Sep 1872
Tonbridge, Kent
Vol 2a Page 564
(The middle name seemed suitably Germanic, so I might be wildly wrong!)
A ;)
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Time to suspend your disbelief - I am rambling now!! ::) ;D
There is this birth:
Augustus Frederick Smith
Jun q 1856
Whitechapel
Vol 1c Page 308
There is also this (I have selected 2 of the names on the page )
Marriage
Peter SMEETS
Johanna Petronella Wilhelmina Van De POLDER
Sep 1855
Bethnal Green
Vol 1c Page 632
I'll get my coat...
A ;)
BTW - how do you know Gustave's name? Who married in 1868?
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Thanks for the added information. I have just relocated the following info which may help clarify the Schmitt children. (from my confused earlier filing system :-[)
According to the St Georges Lutheran Church Records they had a child baptised on 23/12/1855, 09/05/1858, 03/06/1860 & 07/12/1862. .
So they must have been in England since 23/12/1855.
I have Gustave's marriage certificate to Elisabeth Kirschei, 25th October 1868, at Church Of St Boniface, Mile End Old Town, Middlesex, a German Catholic Church. Witnesses were Peter Smith and Wilhemina Smith. Celebrant was A.D. Purcell, RC Priest, John B. Ratcliffe Registrar.
Another family member found that Wilhemina was formerly a Vander Velden( many different spelling variation used by each of the 9 of Gustave's children, and for different occasions for the same children). I have copies of many BMD cert for the children, including Mary, my maternal grandmother.
Distant family connections have given me a more detailed ancestor line of Elisabeth Kirschei, but Gustave's background draws a complete blank, except his marriage and census docs state place of birth as Nassau. His father is given as Henry Vonderfelten, carpenter.
Cheers
Sandra
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Hi again Sandra
Have you found the family in 1861? It would be MUCH easier if we had the names of the children, whose baptisms you mention.
You don't express any opinion on the records I found above (I don't mind if you laugh, I just need to rule them in or out, if possible).
Let us know what you still need & we will do our best!
Oh, by the way - do you have Elizabeth KIRSCHEI on censuses? Just in case they are living in the same vicinity. Does the marriage cert say whether she was previously married?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi
I havent yet managed to locate the family in 1861, the names of the children for the baptism dates would be a great help if you could list them with the appropriate date.
Nicky
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a complete blank, except his marriage and census docs state place of birth as Nassau. His father is given as Henry Vonderfelten, carpenter.
a complete blank ?? oh no, it isn't !!
Nassua is most likely Nassau in Hessen, around Darmstadt.
I've written about it somewhere else, I'll go and have a look.
Bob
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Found it:
Topic: GERMANY: immigration/naturalisation
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,74341.15.html
and your topic on the Immigrants board:
GERMANY: van der velden from Nassau
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,156841.0.html
on the GEDBAS link that I suggested there, there is a Johannes van der Velden (search for velden), whose wife is Wilhelmina. Coincidence ?? Or family tradition ??
There is an e-mail address too, if you want follow it up.
Bob
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That would have been useful to know, as I found a Peter SCHMITT (or variant spelling) who was a sugar baker. Of course, I didn't note it, because I didn't realise the significance at the time!
If you can provide FULL details we can perhaps try again ??
A ;)
p.s. Nicky - I wasn't demanding to know whether you had found them in 1861 - rather asking Sandra if she had that info! :)
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LOL Arranroots. ;D ;D
I had put at the bottom of the 1871 lookup that I would go backwards.......but I cant find them!!!!!!
Think they may be easier to track down with the childrens names.
Nicky
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Quick reply.
Gustave was a sugar baker, 1868-71 (children's certificates). Have quite some info on sugar bakers, what a hell of a job, messy and very dangerous. Gustave preferred to work as a labourer in the gas works shortly after that.
I will sit and sort out ALL the info I have re relevent names/dates. Thank you so much. I know realise how your searching relies on as much info as possible in order for you do 'find' people. Especially as it shows me why I haven't.
I'll get the hang of this one day!!!!
Bob, I received this from a forum correspondent some time ago, my efforts to follow it up didn't get me very far at the time, thouugh I know a bit more about searching now ::)
'A small portion of the Nassau portion of the Prussian province of Hesse-Nassau and a portion of 1919 to 1945 Hesse became part of today's German state of Rhineland-Palatinate (in German: Rheinland-Pfalz) following the Second World War.
That means that the town that Heinrich and Gustav were from could either be in today's German state of Hesse (Hessen) or in today's German state of Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz).'
Goodness, you forum members are so speedy with your responses, and so helpful, I'll soon find myself permanently affixed to my computer at this rate, leaving only to eat/sleep/ and any other totally essential activities. Addicted? Me? No. well not very much - yet!!
Really appreciate all your info
Sandra
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No sign of Gustave and Elisabeth in 1861, but have them 1881,'91 and 1901. I also have marriage and death certificates for both.
re Wilhemina:
1881 - Smith at 10 High St Goodharts Row, Tonbridge with sons Rudolph, b 1862? , Frederick, 1869?, and Patrick, 1873? all born at Whitechapel according to 1881 census.
1891 = both Wilhemina and Peter were living in Tonbridge, Kent spelling Williamena
1901 - Tonbridge again, Peter had died and she was living with her son Patrick and wife Jessie R M Smith, spelling Wilhelmina. This matches up with your 'find' at Whitechapel in 1856, Arranroots.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.
Again thanks
cheers
Sandra
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I'll soon find myself permanently affixed to my computer at this rate, leaving only to eat/sleep/ and any other totally essential activities. Addicted? Me? No. well not very much - yet!!
just like the rest of us ;D ;D ;D ;D
Welcome to RootsChat ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Sandra,
I am a descendent of Gustave Vondervelden. my Grandmother is Elizabeth Mary Gertrude Vandervelden, the grandchild of Gustave. She is still alive and well and has many stories to tell. I am really intersted to share infromation with you. I have a website that contains my family tree so far and would love you to join to add and info that you could share.
Please get in contact.
http://www.myheritage.com/site-200088481/hammerton
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Hi Paul
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
According to her profile Sandra hasn't been online here since Dec 2012.
As long as she hasn't changed email addresses, she should receive notifications that we have posted here and heopfully come back soon.
Dawn