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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: PrueM on Tuesday 20 June 06 08:30 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I wanted to share with you a bit of serendipity that came my way recently :)
I had heard a family story that my great-great-grandfather's brother, Edward Haynes, was a very talented amateur woodcarver. One of the projects that remained in folk memory of the family was a fireplace for Salisbury Court station, a big sheep property near Uralla in the central north of NSW.
I had just accepted these stories for years, but for some reason a month or so back, I thought I should write to the owners of Salisbury Court and ask them whether the fireplace was still there. I found an address, and the owner was a Sir :o Sir Owen Croft, descendant of the original owner of the property when it was established in the 1840s.
Anyway, undaunted, I wrote to Sir Owen, and included my email address. A couple of weeks later, back came an email from him, with photos attached of Uncle Ned's fireplace! :D :D :D
What a beautiful piece of work it is too. I have attached a bit of his email, talking about Uncle Ned and his association with Salisbury Court:
The carved mantlepiece is a feature in our dining room at Salisbury Court and I understand it was made as a wedding present for my grandfather, Sir Hugh Croft who managed Boorolong Station from 1896 to 1919, when he moved to Salisbury. We have just had some work done on it and the timber used was tallowwood which is amazing being so hard. Also I understand that he did all the work with pocket knives rather than wood working tools.
Teddy did not marry as far as I know but did have two girlfriends according to one of my aunts. He was a shepherd originally but would have been a stationhand when fencing became the norm. My aunt was very fond of him as he took her riding when she was a little girl.
We don't have any photos of Ned/Teddy, but having pictures of something so beautiful that he crafted himself is almost as good, as well as the connection to the Croft family and their obvious fondness for him. The fireplace dates from 1901.
I just wanted to share this with you all, because I know you'll understand :) And also to encourage you to write to owners of properties or possessions that were owned or made by your ancestors - even a Peer of the Realm was not too busy to write back to me!
Prue
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Hi Prue ,
How wonderful , you must be thrilled to bit's i know i would be , as you say this is as good as a pic of him and a boost to other's who may put off pursuing their family history , if you don't ask you don't get , and if you had'nt decided to write , there would alway's have been this niggling at the back of your mind . Thank's for sharing this i'm sure it will inspire other's who have been thinking of doing something similar to go ahead .
Gail
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That's wonderful. You must be so excited to have this little piece of history confirmed, and what a beautiful piece of work it is too.
It's always rewarding when someone (peer of the realm or not) takes the time to respond to a request but to include such personal recollections of your ancestor was particularly kind.
How lucky you are!
Susan
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Fab result Prue - and it's gorgeous ;D ;D
Steph.
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Thank you all, I knew you'd love it :D
Glad I could share it with you :)
Prue
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Hi Pru.
What a wonderful find. Makes your hard work worth it. And how lovely to be able to rest your hands on something your ancestors created.
Well done
Sandee
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Hi Prue
Beautiful piece of work. I can't believe he made it with just pocket knives - it must have taken him forever! What a gifted man.
You can see there must be Scottish links with the Thistles.He has definitely given the pice a lot of thought when working on it
You must be so proud of him
Carol
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Prue
What a beautiful fireplace, and I can't believe it was made with pocket knives either. He must have had incredible wrist muscles by the time he had finished.
You lucky thing!
Kerry
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Lovely, Prue!
Paul
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wow its absolutly fantastic.
something to treasure.
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Prue,
How absolutely super, and to have a photo of the fireplace with Edward's carved name on it, an added bonus. How kind of Sir Owen Croft to write back to you. His family obviously treasure the fireplace to have work done on it. And what a nice warm feeling to know 'Teddy' was also very well thought of by the family, fondly so, in the case of the Aunty. :)
Love
Su
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Great stuff Prue,
Denn
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Fabulous Prue - better than a certificate any day!! ;D ;D
You also have his "proper" signature as well.
Shows what you can do by getting in touch with "strangers" - some people are nearly as keen as we are!
Cheers
Keith
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Thanks all of you for your kind words :)
I am still chuffed about this and it's been almost two weeks since I got the pics! Small victories... :D
Cheers
Prue
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Good piece of family history. That's what is really nice about doing the 'tree'. The unexpected, the coincidences, the tangible links to the past. Shame about -no photo- unless of course you already have some.
Time
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Hi Time,
I agree, it's great to pad out the tree with more than names and dates :)
No, we don't have any photos of Ned at all...I only have photos of his nephew John (my g-g-grandfather).
Ned was born in Cork, Ireland, and came to Australia in 1841 with his parents and siblings. He lived to the ripe old age of 99! :o Must be something to be said for country life - and perhaps no wife ;) ;D
Thank you all for your interest :)
Prue
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What a great piece of craftmansship to find still existing and especially with such close ties to your family as well.
I was wondering if you would still have the contact details for the owners of Salisbury Court Station as I would like to contact them myself in regards to my ancestors who spent some years there back in the 1800's. On my grandfather's birth certificate, and that of his brother's, it states they were both born on Salisbury Court Station, one in 1885 and the other in 1886. Both their parents also left Salisbury Court Station as their usual place of residence on their marriage certificate. So I would like to get in touch with the owner to see if there may be any old work ledgers etc still left as am not sure what this family was doing on that property.
Thanks
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Prue, what a beautifully carved fireplace, and with such basic tools, it's lovely to have his name carved in it too. I would be thrilled to bits with the photos.
Well done for being "brave" enough to write to Sir Owen and get such a fabulous result - a lesson to us all.
Maybe you could be cheeky enough to e-mail him and ask if there are any photos of Teddy, maybe photos were taken of the young aunt riding with him ;D
Jool
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Hi Jool,
Since I started this thread on Rootschat I have got in touch with a few other Haynes relatives, and have got a few photos of Ned/Ted in his older age, but yes, perhaps the Crofts have a few pics hidden away - I never thought to ask, as I was just so grateful that they took the photos of the fireplace for me!
Hi Anakie,
I will have a dig around on my old computer and find the email address I used, and PM it to you :)
Cheers
Prue
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Wonderful catching up with this one Prue :) and thank you Anakie for bringing this thread from the past up too, missed it first time round.
Cheers :) mare
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Prue, I came across your post while I was deep in research about Salisbury Court NSW. In the course of working on my own family I came across some references for Haynes. One is an article about Edward Haynes from Smith's Weekly 14.5.1927 and a paragraph about one of his carved walking sticks being presented to royalty. I also have a couple of very brief mentions of Haynes' from Eliza Marsh's journal. If you don't have these, let me know and I'll give you the references.
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Hi Robyng :)
I would love to have the articles and diary entries you mention - thank you so much! I do have a couple of articles about Edward Haynes and his carvings, but I don't think I have the Smith's Weekly one, so I'd be really grateful to have it and the others.
Are you connected to the Marsh family? There is another Marsh cousin that I'm in touch with who was also tracing the family - if you like, I can put you in touch with her.
I can't post my email address on the forum, and I can't post you a private message (PM) until you have posted at least three times on boards other than The Lighter Side. If you are happy to post the articles here on the board, I'm happy to receive them that way - otherwise let me know and we'll work out a way for you to contact me :)
Thank you for getting in touch!
Prue
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Hi Prue, I'll answer you in short bursts as I've just written a complete answer to you and somehow lost it before I posted it. So, the newspaper article:
I don't know if you can find a library that keeps copies of Smith's Weekly. However, the article is reproduced in Armidale & District Historical Society Journal No. 21, January 1978. The Armidale Local History group might be able to help you. If not, and we can work out a way to contact each other, I can send you a copy of the reproduced article.
It was written from an interview with Edward Haynes when he was 98.
I'll be back soon with some mor.
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The journal entries are fairly short. They are in Eliza Marsh's papers in the Special Collections section of the Mitchell Library.
1852 20 [March?] Thursday - 'Matt went at 10 o'clock to Boorolong. (undeciphered) the Bush by Old Haynes sheepstation.'
5 Apr. - 'Matt came home via Old Hayne's. I met him in Hogben's paddock. John took his horse & we walked up to the house together.'
There was a mention of Haynes on 16 April but I didn't write down the quote, just noted that Haynes' station was called 'The Castle", which was 10 miles from Salisbury Court.
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Prue, no.3 entry re Haynes:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/24845593
the above will take you to the article about Edward Haynes carving the walking stick for a member of the royal family.
My final reference for Mr Haynes is from 'Old New England' by R B Walker (1966) pp. 77-78 : in reference to shepherds' work: "He was ill-paid compared with urban workers and artisans but little was required of him except the capacity to endure infinite monotony. Some, such as Edward Haynes at Boorolong, took penknife in hand and became an expert in the infinite pains of carving whip handles, portrait frames out of wood, or even the great mantelpiece which adorned the hospitable hearth at Salisbury Court."
The above is referenced from the Armidale Express, 17 May, 7 June, 31 October 1879.
Finally, I forgot to give you the page numbers for the first article : 123-125.
All the best. Robyng
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Hi again Robyn :)
That is wonderful, thank you so much. I will chase up the Smith's Weekly article at the National Library when I am next there.
They are all little snippets but they all add up to make a nice big picture, so thanks again.
I thought you (and the others who have followed this thread) might like to see that I did eventually get a photo of old Edward/Teddy/Ned Haynes, and I attach it here.
Best wishes
Prue
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Prue ,
I know how you feel during my research I met an elderly relative who I had not known anything about on a visit to her home I mentioned my 2*great grandfather was a carpenter she was also a descendent of his and she soon pulled me up saying he was a joiner and she then showed me a Welsh Dresser he had made ,it was so moving to see and touch it and take a photo of it.
Kind Regards
Mrs Griff
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It's so lovely when complete strangers take the time to get involved - I think we forget that our research is often interesting to other people too.
I recently wrote a 'To whom it may concern' letter addressed to the farm where my gg grandfather lived, not knowing if the property even has the same name after all this time.
I enclosed a translation of a Galar Gan (a Welsh poem of lament, written for him on his death) which talked about his great love of the land he lived on, and the stream that gave the farm its name. He obviously had a strong constitution, as he took a bath in the stream every morning, even when he had to break the ice first!
To my delight, I received a letter back from the current owners who found the poem deeply moving, and went straight outside in the snow and photographed the stream for me, so I now have a stunning photo of his outdoor bathroom, completely unchanged, and just as it must have been 120 years ago.
Always worth asking - you don't know what you'll get back, and wonderful results like these make the disappointments pale into insignificance!
Caroline.
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That is lovely Prue ....... and see what an interest you have stirred in the hearts of people interested in family history.
Tallow wood is as 'hard as the hobs of hell' and he must have been a very patient craftsman.
Thank you for posting it.
Joe
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Thanks Joe, Caroline and Mrs Griff :)
I always enjoy reading other peoples' stories of discoveries of their ancestors' "things" or special places, so it's a pleasure for me to be able to share my own story with you all. And if it encourages others to send off random letters to strangers, all the better ;D
Joe, yes, I understand it is very hard wood and the fact that he did it with a pocket knife is nothing short of either miraculous or insane...he was a prodigious carver of walking sticks too, not sure what he made those out of but he often asked in family letters for his nephews to look out for appropriate bits of wood for him to use.
I think I should have liked Old Uncle Ned :)
Cheers
Prue
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New to Rootschat but have researched heaps of the Thorley family. Thomas Allan Thorley worked for the Marsh family at Salisbury Court as a carpenter (immigration Cert states he was a Millwright from Rivistin (Riverstown) C. Cork, Ireland) bookkeeper and shepherd. He died in 1861 aged only 46 "of Natural Causes" after an illness of 13 days. The Manager (and brother of the owner) of the Salisbury Run, C M Marsh, was the informant on the death cert. The Marsh diaries (at Armidale University Library) show two entries ...13.7.1861 "Thorley died' and Thorley buried".
A relatively young family was left fatherless. Evidence of Marsh benevolence may be in the NSW land ownership records. The names of two of the sons of Thomas and Mary (nee Meehan) Thorley .....William Joseph Thorley (oldest) and Cadman Samuel Thorley (youngest) appear on many of the grants of the blocks that became the Thorley family farms of Woodburn and Greylands and some of the same deeds also show Marsh as one of the grantees.
The Woodburn and Greylands property is reputed to have been was one of the biggest wool producers in New South Wales in the early 20th century ..and family lore has it that those family members residing there lived life in a very opulent manner. Portion of these properties had originally been part of Salisbury Run.
It was not until 1925 that the Hayne and Thorley families became directly interlinked. marriage no. 11950/1925 was Ida May Thorley and Clarence Matthew Hayne. Ida was a daughter of William Joseph Thorley (from above) and Mary Agnes (nee O'Neill).
An earlier indirect Hayne - Thorley link is via the marriage 6635/1942 of William Clyde Jurd to Rita May Hayne. William's mother was Catherine Mary Thorley (m. Ebenzer Jurd 6354/1899) Catherine was a niece of William Joseph Thorley. Her father was William's brother, John.
William and John Thorley married sisters from the Burraston family. And their sister Mary Anne jane Thorley married Joseph Burraston. So three Thorleys married three Burrastons of the same generation.
I digress ....it seems like a history of much or the Uralla area!
I was really interested to see the Salisbury Court fireplace and the link to the Hayne name. It rather says that E Hayne and Thomas Allan Thorley or his family were associated with Salisbury at about the same time.
I wonder if there may be more old photos of Salisbury Court around which could show any of the staff employed there in the early days? There is a facebook site for Salisbury Court which might be a good spot to add them (as well as here on Rootschat)?
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Hi Richard :)
Apologies for the late reply to your post.
I'm afraid I don't recognise any of the Hayne names you mentioned - My family was Haynes so probably we are talking about two different families. Sounds like they were around the same area at the same time, however, so possibly knew each other. Most of my Hayneses had moved away by the early 1900s, with Edward up at Boorolong being the only stayer.
Prue
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That's a gorgeous story Prue - although of course "sir" is the honorific of somebody with a knighthood or a baronetcy, neither of which is properly described as a "peer of the realm" (only Barons and upwards are properly so described ...)
As others say, though, it is remarkable how interested other people - including complete strangers - can be in these things.
Last weekend, I turned up out of the blue at the house where my grandfather was born, and rang on the door. I explained to them that I was trying to identify the location of an old family photograph (the only photograph we have of my great aunt Doris, who died age 2 in 1908) - and showed them my grandfather's birth certificate with their address on it, so they could see that I was genuine in what I was attempting.
They could not have been more accommodating! They were really and truly fascinated in what I was trying to do, invited me through the house and into the back yard to see what the rear elevation looked like, and helped me to peer at the minute details of the brickwork showing in the photograph in order to compare it to the brickwork of their house.
Our final conclusion was that the photograph had to have been taken somewhere else ... but what lovely people!!
Some time I intend to knock on the door of my grandmother's old house, and ask if they are aware of the story of the carved angels in the hallway (saved by my grandfather from the site of a church which had been bombed during the blitz; and subsequently incorporated into the fabric of that house when my grandmother bought it following my grandfather's death).
And I fully intend to visit the house where I was born on my 50th birthday. I think that one may be another "take my birth certificate with me" visit ...