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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: Kenike on Tuesday 20 June 06 00:36 BST (UK)
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Wondered if anyone could point me in the right direction?
I have ancestors listed in the 1861 census as residing at the Hand and Heart Inn in Bartholemew Street, Newbury. They are Joseph and Harriet Ann Challis.
The pub no longer appears on the street and I wondered what the best way was of tracing its location. It was recorded near to Hazzells Yard? and the cattle market which I now believe to have been replaced by the Kennet Centre??
In the Newbury Billings Directory of 1854 the pub is recorded at Cowley Thomas, Bartholemew Street but is absent from the 1847 and 1864 directories held in Newbury library. Does the BRO hold other directories that may aid my search?
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I don't know the Hand and Heart - but will look into it.
The BRO has very few directories - they are not the sort of thing they collect (in general they are not interested in published material). The bext source of directories for Newbury are Newbury Library (you have already tried them), Reading Local Studies Library (their catalogue is online so you can check what they have before you go); and West Berkshire Museum (they have photocopies in the reception area - just drop in).
What the BRO will have are municipal and court records that may well give information on licences, rates etc.
The Hand and Heart is not on the lists of pubs I have for 1761 and 1823.
Thomas Cowley is a 'Retailer of beer' in Slater's directory of 1852. He is in the 1851 census as a 'Publican and contractor on the railroad'.
Kelly's 1848 directory of Berkshire does not show it but there are entries like 'White, Joseph, beer retailer, Bartholomew St'. I suspect the Hand and Heart was a small beer house. As such it could easily have changed into a shop or grown into a larger pub under a different name.
Hazell's Yard is not instantly traceable - it was not going by that name in 1815 or 1878 (obviously not owned by a Hazell at that time). Following the 1861 enumerator and assuming he was following a 'walk' I would agree with you that the H&H was on the east of Bart St, north of the cattle market. If so Hazell's yard may well have been King's Yard in 1815
The whole area has been flattened to make way for the Kennet Centre but there are pictures (the museum will have several) of the area.
The H&H appears to have been on the northeast corner of the junction of Bart St and Market St. If so it also seems to have been the 'Eagle' in 1871 (landlord Samuel Hawkins).
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Thankyou very much Newbury Chap.
Have pondered where it might be for some time and did wonder whether it may have changed names or use.
You have given me some great lines of enquiry, have been meaning to pop into the museum for some time and never managed it for various reasons. I didnt realise they held directories there.
Was also going to look on maps for its existance but because it only seemed to be around for a short time I thought that the various OS editions may not be enough. The Eagle line of enquiry may allow me to trace this better though along with the cattle market.
Thanks again for your help, Rootschat is proving very useful for fresh ideas.
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I don't know the Hand and Heart - but will look into it.
Hi Kenike - didn't get much of a chance to talk the other night - so here is the rundown on the Hand & Heart.
A police case in 1868 describes an incident in the Eagle (commonly known as the Hand & Heart) - see Dick Godfrey's Newbury Borough Police.
The Eagle appears in several directories; in some it is shown as being at 124 Bartholomew St.
This address later (1873ish) became the Falkland Arms. There are photographs of this pubs in Bartholomew Street scenes (mainly postcards) in the West Berkshire Museum collection.
The Eagle was a pub with a very bad reputation, the name change to the Falkland is almost certainly an attempt to wipe the slate clean, new landlord, new name, improved repution (still common practise today - in this case it seems to have worked).
It is probable that the Hand & Heart was previously the Lamb & Flag and before that the Lamb - which would take it back to at least 1761 (list of Newbury pubs in the Corporation minutes).
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Hiya Newburychap
Thanks for the info and wished I could have chatted more on the night but was kind of left holding the fort in the corner!
Sorry not to have had a chance to speak to your other half as well.
Thanks for the valuable info, I was looking in the Police book the other day but just looked up items from the index, will have to have a re-look. Will certainly follow the info up.
Thanks again
Kenike
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Thankyou very much Newbury Chap.
Have pondered where it might be for some time and did wonder whether it may have changed names or use.
You have given me some great lines of enquiry, have been meaning to pop into the museum for some time and never managed it for various reasons. I didnt realise they held directories there.
Was also going to look on maps for its existance but because it only seemed to be around for a short time I thought that the various OS editions may not be enough. The Eagle line of enquiry may allow me to trace this better though along with the cattle market.
Thanks again for your help, Rootschat is proving very useful for fresh ideas.
Hello,
I don't know if this helps anyone.
Hazells Yard was definitely called so in 1851. There are several families living there (Berks fhs transcript) It looks to be off Bartholomew Street. At its entrance in Barthomew St HO107/1685 f. 325 p. 23 there is a Samuel and Jane Hazell (master baker) who it was possibly named after.
In 1851 Jospeh and Harriet Challis were living in Tooveys Yard and he is a bricklayers lab with a son, Robert.
I am particularly interested in the Challis's of Newbury as I have links to them. However, I cannot connect Joseph Challis and Harriet Ann Banning to mine as I haven't found his baptism.
Yours
Vicwinann
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Hi Vicwinann
I have been researching the Challis' of Newbury myself and might be able to help you make the connection. Which are the names you are looking to link to Joseph and Harriet Ann Banning?
Kenike
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Wow I have just stumbled against this thread.
I was looking for John Elkins when I noticed the 1851 census full of Challis people . I too am researching a family of CHALLIS in Newbury but so far haven't connected this Joseph.
But how does James Elkins fit in as a Brother to Joseph and who was the land lord? ???
I'm totally confused
Kenike are you around? please can we compare notes? are you interested in the Liddiards or Messengers as well?
fingers crossed we have a common interest
trees
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/Hi Newbury chap if you are around can you identify another pub connected to the same family.
in 1851 Cornelius Elkins was licence Victualler at Market Place, Newbury St Nicholas, Newbury
Any idea what the pub was please?
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Cornelius Elkins was licencee of the Waggon and Horses for about a year, from January 1851 to January 1852. He was also a tobacconist in Northbrook St.
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Many thanks I wonder why so short a time do you know who was thewre before anf after him I wonder if one was a relation and he was "standing in" as it were ???
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oooh er I think I have found a bigamist :o
Cornelius Elkins born 1825 Newbury all his siblings were Curriers ie leather merchants
in 1851 he is keeping the Wagon and Horses with his wife Hannah
In 1861 he is a currier lodging in Wash street newbury while his wife Hannah is a hall keeper in Market place Newbury....Any idea what sort of Hall that was please?
in 1871 she is a shop keeper in Canterbury Place, St Mary Newington London still married no sign of a husband so I looked for Cornelius and found a Cornelius Elkingson born 1826 Newbury a currier living in Bread Street, St Margaret, Leicester but with a wife and baby son!
I have looked for Cornelius Elkingson on previous censuses with no luck at all
oh dear is he really Cornelius Elkins??? It seems an awfully strange coincidence having so many similarities what do other chatters think?
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I don't think he was related to any other licensee of the Waggon. Before him the Westons (Benjamin & Sophia) kept the pub for almost 40 years. He was followed by a chap (Samuel Austin) who stayed only a few months - which looks to me suspiciously like a brewery employee put in as a temporary expedient while a new tenant is found. If that was the case then Elkins left suddenly - the most common reasons for that would be bankruptcy or a severe infringement of the licensing laws. I have no evidence to show why he left, just of the transfer of the licence to Austin - but my bet is on money problems.
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oooh er I think I have found a bigamist :o
Cornelius Elkins born 1825 Newbury all his siblings were Curriers ie leather merchants
in 1851 he is keeping the Wagon and Horses with his wife Hannah
In 1861 he is a currier lodging in Wash street newbury while his wife Hannah is a hall keeper in Market place Newbury....Any idea what sort of Hall that was please?
in 1871 she is a shop keeper in Canterbury Place, St Mary Newington London still married no sign of a husband so I looked for Cornelius and found a Cornelius Elkingson born 1826 Newbury a currier living in Bread Street, St Margaret, Leicester but with a wife and baby son Albert Edward ELKINGSON but free bdms has an Albert Edward ELKINS born in 1870 but no Elkingson
I have looked for Cornelius Elkingson on previous censuses with no luck at all
oh dear is he really Cornelius Elkins??? It seems an awfully strange coincidence having so many similarities what do other chatters think?
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Hi Newbury I have now found these:
http://pubshistory.com
Old Waggon & Horses, 26 Market Place,
1830/Benjamin Weston/../../../Pigots Directory ***
1840/B Weston/../../../Robsons Directory ***
1844/Benj Weston/../../../Pigots Directory ***
1847/Benjamin Weston/../../../Post Office Directory ***
1852/Sophia Weston/../../../Slaters Directory ***
Now Benjamin and Sophia WESTON were parents of Hannah wife of Cornelius ELKINS.
I have found several obit notices for Benjamin Weston in 1848 so it looks like Cornelius took over for his mother in law for that year
BUT there is a tree on An..ry which says Benjamin committed Suicide but the newspaper death announcements I found don't mention suicide at all
Have you found anything that can confirm this at all?
Many thanks for your interest its good to have your local knowledge
:) Trees
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It's only bigamy if he was married to them both at the same time. Telling the census the woman you are living with is your wife is not proof of marriage.
The Hall looks like it could be the Town Hall, perhaps/probably including the 'Mansion House'.
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Quite right I stand corrected. it seems the child is given his surname. Annoyingly I can't find them in 1881 as Elkins or Elkingson.
Thanks for identifying the hall too it all builds up a clearer picture of their lives.
Trees
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Benjamin Weston died 21 July 1848 aged 71. Looking at these bare details one wouldn't think of suicide, but I too have heard this story - but have no evidence to back it up.
The following may be found on the Curious Fox website (posted in 2004)
Weston Tragedy - Newbury
Benjamin Weston (11th of 12 children of Benjamin and Hannah) born 1777, innkeeper at 'Old Waggon and Horses Inn' which still exists, in Newbury Market Place,appointed Borough Treasurer in 1841. The complications, mainly due to the negligence of the Overseers, led to his suicide in 1848. The Council immediately appointed his widow, Sophia, Housekeeper at the Mansion House (Town Hall), possibly a sign of their responsibility for the tragedy. I am willing to send full details to anyone interested.
I fear that I did contact the chap who posted this - but cannot find the correspondence (many of my old emails seem to have disappeared). From what I remember there was also a family connection to the Haskins (earlier landlords) - but I may be wrong.
It could explain how Hannah came to be the hall keeper.
PS I am more convinced that Elkins left over money problems, he was being sued for debt in the County Court in Dec 1851.
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This is building up to be an interesting story I have written to the tree owner to see if he has the actual death certificate for Benjamin will report back. I don't particularly want to get it as this is my cousin's late husband's tree not my own and these are a little off the trunk too but its building an interesting tree for her children full ofinteresting little stories.
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The coroner's report may be more interesting than the DC - BRO:N/JQ 10/2/79
I'll put it on the list of things to do at the BRO.
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Such a shame I was in thr RFeading RO last week just before I found all this well really what i found there has lead to this chase I can't see us getting back for a while so it would be great if you could do a look up thank you
:)
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No problem. Not sure when it will be.
This thread did get me back into Newbury pub research - even found three more pubs. Okay two of them, both called the Queen Caroline, look like alternate names for pubs I already knew about - but the third could be totally new. And with an outstandingly non-PC name 'The Cripples'! I guess even in the 1850s it wasn't that good a name as it doesn't seem to have lasted long.
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Cheers!
I love the pub research I now have about 150 connected with the tree they usually throw up interesting side stories you can see mine...well most of them on my web site under occupations publicans :)
Happy hunting give the RO staff my regards i think we've driven them mad over the Blue Coat School on our visits this year :)
Trees
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Okay - I can now confirm that Benjamin Weston committed suicide, but took 20 days to die.
He cut his own throat with a razor on 3 Jul 1848 and 'lingered and languished' until the 23rd when he died. The jury ruled that ' the said Benjamin Weston not being of sound mind memory and understanding but lunatic and disturbed in the manner and by the means aforesaid did kill himself'.
The inquest was held at the Two Brewers before Joseph Bunny, Newbury coroner and a jury.
The inquest is reference is N/JQ 10/2/80 (not 79 as listed in the BRO catalogue and the BFHS index to coroners' records at the BRO). The BRO are now aware of the issue so their index should be fixed soon (it appears that a number of them are mis-indexed by 1 in this manner).
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Many many thanks that was a very sad and I should think extremely painful death for such an old man :'(. I'll let my cousin know about it straight away.
:) Trees