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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: downside on Thursday 08 June 06 23:54 BST (UK)
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Hi Folks
I'm looking for some details about a baptism that took place in Amberley 15-Feb-1829.
Ann, baseborn daughter of Harriett Wakeham, Servant of Amberley.
Can tell me what Ann's surname is in the baptism register please?
Is the father mentioned?
Cheers
downside
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Hi Downside,
Firstly, question, where is your information from?
Secondly, the way the registers were written, Ann's surname would have been that of her mother, WAKEHAM & I doubt whether the father would have been mentioned :( You could try looking for a bastardy order that Ann might have brought against the father for the upkeep of the child. They would be at the West Sussex Records Office in Chichester or you could try a search on the A2A site. There could also be a settlement or removal order in her name.
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
jane
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Hi Jane
The information has been supplied from 2 sources.
1) An ancestral file on the LDS site has Ann listed with 2 fathers.
2) Private source.
Thanks for your assistance.
downside
PS she seems to be known as Ann West on some documents.
PPS Ann's mother married Thomas Gent a few months after she was born.
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Hi Downside
I can check the original entry for you next time I'm in the Chi RO as it is on fiche. Not sure when that'll be - sometime in next week or two hopefully.
Jan ;)
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Hi janan
I've just done a search on a site called FamilyHistoryOnline and she is listed as Ann Wakeham which sort of answers answers my question. However, I have not clicked to see the entry so I am not sure if she had a middle name i.e. West.
This query is a bit of a muddle as I am getting conflicting information from various sources. The IGI ancestral search lists her as Ann West. So it is a real muddle.
Thanks for your offer.
downside
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Hopefully the original entry will clear up the muddle. Fingers crossed. I'll try to pop in there on Monday/Tuesday as I'd like to know too ;D
Jan ;)
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Hi janan
I can't remember if Chichester holds Brighton marriages on microfiche or not?
Ann Wakeham (West) married EDWARD WILLIAM BRABY 10 Jun 1849 St Nicholas, Brighton, Sussex. I wonder what she put in the father column?
downside
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Me again Downside,
I think Janan is going to look-up the baptismal entry for Ann (West) Wakeham in Amberley 1829 :) The entry in the pr's for her marriage to Edward Braby in Brighton in 1849 will not have the detail you are looking for, you will only get that from purchasing the certificate.
jane
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Hi Downside
Chi won't have Brighton Records - you will need someone going to Lewes for that. While I'm in the records office I will ask about any bastardy orders involving Hannah Wakeham as well.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan
I thought Chichester did have certain East Sussex records as well, I remember they had some Portslade records when I was last there.
I think you mean Ann Wakeham not Harriett?
Regards
downside
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No did mean Harriett (despite writing Hannah ::) :D) as any bastardy orders would be in her name. I will take the marriage details in case they do have the records - although Brighton isn't on the list I have what they've got on fiche.
Jan ;)
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Hi Janan
According to their website they hold all the parish BMD records for both East and West Sussex.
http://www.westsussex.gov.uk/ccm/content/libraries-and-archives/record-office/collections/record-office-holdings.en
"As the Diocesan Record Office we hold the official records of the Bishops of Chichester; the Dean and Chapter of Chichester and the property they owned. The records include the original parish registers of baptisms, marriages and burials and the bishops transcripts from every parish in both West and East Sussex."
I think the same is for the census records too.
If you can manage the marriage lookup (go on, I know you're curious) then it would be much appreciated. Gold Star Award to Janan :D
Cheers
downside
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Hi Downside & Janan,
Firstly, I'm going to make a BIG apology to Janan because I might have spoiled her fun ;)
Last night I found, on the Sussex Look-up Exchange, someone with the Amberley parish records & (I'm so sorry) I couldn't resist, I asked for Ann's baptismal entry & a possible burial for Harriet. Here's what came back.....
There only states Ann was baseborn and that Harriett Wakeham had an occupation as Servant. If you can find out where she was a servant then it may help.
Yes Harriet wife of Thomas Gent died December 9th 1833
aged 23 years.
So there's nothing there that might suggest Barnard West was the father, but I would still look for any bastardy orders in her name or that of Barnard West.
Janan, Downside & I have had a PM exchange & I found that Harriet & Thomas GENT had a legitimate son, George bap 22/5/1831. In 1841, George is with his grandparents in North Stoke with an uncle & assorted cousins which suggested to me that Harriet had died, confirmed above. Can't find Thomas Gent in 1841 but he reappears in 1851 in Rotherhithe with a new wife, Caroline. In 1861 he is widowed, in lodgings in Bermondsey (FreeBMD death of Caroline Gent, Bermondsey Dec. 1855 1d 64) Downside told me that Thomas Gent died Bermondsey 1864.
I have struggled to find the son of Thomas & Harriet, George, in 1851 & beyond but he's just not there :(
jane
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"As the Diocesan Record Office we hold the official records of the Bishops of Chichester; the Dean and Chapter of Chichester and the property they owned. The records include the original parish registers of baptisms, marriages and burials and the bishops transcripts from every parish in both West and East Sussex."
Well I never that's news to me but I've only lived in Chi 32 years ;D ;D
OK I'll see what I can find. At least I still have something to lookup Jane ;D ;D ;D
Jan ;)
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Hi All
Thanks for that Jane.
Can you confirm Ann's full baptism name. As you are aware several LDS church submitters list her as Ann West. Someone has listed her as Ann Wakeham West Gent. So what is her full name please?
Everything now hinges on what name she entered in the father column on her marriage certificate. If that has been left blank or has her stepfather's name, Thomas Gent, then I'll have to contact some of the LDS submitters to find out why they are citing Barnard West as the father.
Cheers
downside
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Hi Downside,
I'll ask the 'lookerer upperer' on the exchange for that information but as I had told them what we were looking for I think it will say, 'Ann, baseborn daughter of Harriet Wakeham, servant of Amberley',
Give my regards to Chi, Janan ;D
jane
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Janan & Downside,
Been doing some extra homework on the Wakeham's & this West connection. I think you'll be interested in my findings :)
1841 - Amberley
George Prescott? 20
Harriet 20
Jane 6m
Ann Wakeham 12
Guess who's next door?
Barnard WEST, wife Margaret & assorted children :o
1851- we know that Ann Wakeham is married to Edward Braby & living in Brighton with daughter, Harriet.
1861 - 14 Sussex Rd, Hove
Edward Braby 33 flydriver b. Amberley
Ann 32 ditto
Harriet 11 b. Brighton
Robert 9 ditto
George 4 b. Hove
Jane 2 ditto
In the same house,
Jane Wakeham 35 unm laundress b. Amberley
Thomas Wakeham son 4 ditto
William Wakeham son 2 b. Brighton
I think Jane is the wife of a cousin & possibly widowed rather than single. An extracted record on the IGI shows a marriage between a Charles Wakeham & JANE WEST 7/11/1852, Amberley. Barnard had a daughter, Jane born about 1831, so could be her!
Harriet had a brother, Charles (admitedly IGI submitted) bap. 1799, Amberley. This I would think is his marriage, from the SMI,
South Stoke, West Sussex, 23 Sep 1820:
Charles WAKEHAM, Amberley WSX (B)
Hannah AYLING
From the Bishops Transcripts.
Charles & Hannah had a son, Charles bap. 24/4/1831, Amberley (extracted record) I think it's him who married Jane West.
1871 - 14 Sussex rd, Hove
Edward Braby 42 flyman
Ann 42 laundress
George H. 14 b. Hove
Jane 12 ditto
Dan 9 ditto
Thomas 7 ditto
Elizabeth 4 ditto
Annie 2 ditto
Albert 1m ditto
I noticed from that ancestral file that Ann is down as dying in Salt Lake City in 1915 which might be the reason why I can't find them in 1881 - they emigrated- but can't find them on the Ellis Island website :(
However, did find the following names on the Salt lake City Cemetery Records,
Edward Braby, no date, Annie 1884, Dan 1884, George H, 1888. Possible children?
jane
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You've been busy Jane :D
I have a similar scenario in 41 with my Ann Noon (by this time married for the second time) living nextdoor to a man of the same name as the father named in a bastardy order for my baseborn Hannah Noon. A bit weird if it is him :o ???.
Jan ;)
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Hi Jane
I've had the 1841 census for years but I didn't spot that, but then I wasn't looking for any connection until last week when this event suddenly popped into view. It certainly implies there is a link between Ann Wakeham and Barnard West. It's unlikely that it is just a coincidence they happen to living next door to each other. Incidentally you listed the 1841 census for Rackham rather than Amberley. I mention that because there was no obvious reason why Ann should be living in Rackham as she was from Amberley. It would infer that she had family there.
As we know her mother had died around 1837 and it looks like her stepfather Thomas Gent disowned her as he wasn't her real father. It looks like Barnard did take some responsibility for her - even though he was married with 6 children at the time.
The JANE WAKEHAM bit is a red herring I'm afraid. Barnard's daughter Jane was born in Worthing in 1831 as were the first 3 children. I have Jane living in London in 1861:-
Census 1861: 24, Dorchester Place, St Marylebone | Jane West | 29 | Sussex, Worthing.
I do not know who that particular Jane Wakeham is, even though I have loads of Wakeham's in my family tree. It is true 2 Wakeham's (Charles and Reuben) married 2 West sisters (Jane and Eliza Margaret). There were so many Wakehams that were born and married in Amberley, although one in particular has caught my attention. A John Wakeham married a Sarah Braby on 19th November 1816 in St Michael's, Amberley. I don't know whether they were the parents of Jane Wakeham, but it might explain why she was living in a Braby household.
Thanks for all your heroic efforts.
Has your looker upper come back to you with Ann's full baptism name?
Cheers
downside
PS Barnard had 3 wives and 19 children and he still ended up in East Preston Work House!
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This is the EXACT wording on the baptismal entry,
feb 15th 1829 number 290
Ann dr of - Baseborn
Harriet Wakeham
Amberley
Servant
Incidentally you listed the 1841 census for Rackham rather than Amberley. I mention that because there was no obvious reason why Ann should be living in Rackham as she was from Amberley. It would infer that she had family there.
1841 - HO107/1092/1/7/6 It is Amberley, it states, 'Amberley hamlet of Rackham'
As we know her mother had died around 1837 Harriet, Ann's mother died 1833 age 23 (dob 1810)
Thomas Gent disowned her as he wasn't her real father. We don't know that Thomas even knew about her existance. We do know that Thomas didn't keep his legitimate son with him :(
Perhaps we can find out who this PESCOTT/PRESCOTT couple are.
Broadwater, West Sussex, 17 Feb 1829:
Margaret FORD
Bernard WEST, botp (B)
Witness wit: Eliza FORD; Henry WEST
Looks like Bernard & Margaret stayed in Broadwater for a time then by 1841 they are back in Amberley.
1851 shows Bernard & new wife, Mary in Broadwater again. Jane is a servant in the household of George & Francis Haines at 6 Warwick Buildings, Broadwater,
Jane West serv. unm. 19 b. Rackham.
The JANE WAKEHAM bit is a red herring I'm afraid. Barnard's daughter Jane was born in Worthing in 1831 as were the first 3 children. I have Jane living in London in 1861:-
Census 1861: 24, Dorchester Place, St Marylebone | Jane West | 29 | Sussex, Worthing. I think you're right. This Jane is unm, laundress with a 3 year old daughter, Amelia born Brighton.
A John Wakeham married a Sarah Braby on 19th November 1816 in St Michael's, Amberley. I don't know whether they were the parents of Jane Wakeham, but it might explain why she was living in a Braby household.
I had also spotted this on the SMI,
Amberley, West Sussex, 19 Nov 1816:
John WAKEHAM, botp
Sarah BRABY
Witness wits: William WAKEHAM; Jane WAKEHAM
From the IGI extracted record they had Charles Wakeham Amberley, 1818.
On the SAME DAY,
Amberley, West Sussex, 19 Nov 1816:
William WAKEHAM, botp
Jane HOPKINS
Witness wits: Frank FARED; Robert BRABY
Looks like two brothers having a double wedding! I think they are the sons of John & Susanna Wakeham (nee Coote) married Amberley 1789.
jane
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Hi Jane
Henry West family arrived in Rackham from Henfield in 1799 and married Sarah Slaughter and started a family there. The Pescott or Peskett family were already established there. On the 1851 census John Pescott, aged 71 claims to have been born in Rackham. So the Wests and the Pescotts had know each other most of their lives. I can't see any other explanation as to why the Pescott's looked after Ann. She probably worked as a servant for the Pescott's in return for board and lodgings. I can only think that Barnard's wife Margaret must have been a fairly tolerant woman.
I don't know whether that is true about Thomas Gent not knowing that his wife had a daughter before he married her. Was he that stupid or was it a matter of convenience? Imagine Thomas and Harriett are walking down a street in Amberley and a little girl starts shouting "mummy, mummy." If Thomas Gent disowned his son does that suggest he may not have been the father? Don't tell me Barnard has been busy again!
So we have some strong circumstantial evidence that Barnard West was the father of Ann Wakeham. I'd dearly like to get hold of some documentary proof so let's hope Janan turns up something.
Cheers
downside
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Given the extremely slow progress I'm making booking tickets for the Edinburgh Fringe I am unlikely to get to the RO today - probably be next week, Tuesday. Still I don't suppose after all this time the information will be going anywhere :D
Jan ;)
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Hi Jane
I missed the mormon/emigration to USA bit:
1. More about ANN4 WAKEHAM ( HARRIETT3 JOHN2 JOHN1 )
She married EDWARD WILLIAM BRABY 10 Jun 1849 St Nicholas, Brighton, Sussex.
She emigrated to Salt Lake City, Utah, America in 1875.
She d. 17 Feb 1915 Salt Lake City, Utah.
She was buried __? Feb 1915 Salt Lake City, Utah
36
More about EDWARD WILLIAM2 BRABY ( ROBERT1 )
He is the son of ROBERT BRABY and RHODA HOLLIST & was b. 16 May 1827 Amberley, Sussex.
He d. 4 Jan 1909 Salt Lake City, Utah, America.
He was buried __? Jan 1909 Salt Lake City Cemetery, Utah
Notes
Both Ann & Edward were baptised into the Mormon faith on day of their marriage.
Found on Ancestry.com site
LDS Baptism 10 Jun 1849 Temple:
ID: Edward BRABY: 1104494610
ID: Ann WEST: 1104494611
downside
PS Janan you can't go to Edinburgh you have more important things to do :o
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Hi Downside & Janan,
Thanks for the link to your site, Downside...why don't you add it to your profile? I really enjoyed reading it, you've done an excellent job :)
With the extra info you gave on Edward Braby, I've now linked him up to the Braby tree I have for Amberley.
AS you said, Edward was the eldest son of Robert & Rhoda nee Hollist. Married 1826, Amberley.
Robert was the youngest son (bap 1804, Amberley) of Daniel & Hannah nee Moore, married 17/5/1785, Amberley.
Daniel was the eldest son (bap. 1758, Amberley) of Robert & Ann nee Heward/Howard married 1757, Amberley.
Now to the identity of Jane Wakeham living with Edward & Ann in 1861. The two brothers who married on the same day in 1816...the Sarah Braby who married John Wakeham was the sister of Edwards father. John Wakeham & sarah had a daughter, Jane Wakeham bap 8/6/1824. Jane Wakeham was Edwards first cousin!
By the way, there is a Removal Order from Coldwatham to Amberley in the name of, Robert Braby, Rhoda, Robert 6m & Edward 3 years Par/54/32/3/19 at the West Sussex Records Office.
Janan, have a great time north of the border :)
jane
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Hi Jane
I do have a link on my profile to my website. You see that little globe icon, that is a link to a roots chatter's website.
The other thing to mention is that I have 2 separate databases:
1) the website one that contains limited information about the Wakehams.
2) the one on my PC at home that contains a lot of non-West stuff i.e. other names.
One of my contacts has emailed me an attachment of the actual page containing Ann's baptism. It just arrived out of the blue, I didn't realise they had it. I think they must have scanned in a photocopy of a microfiche image and converted it to a .jpeg file. It took ages to download when I opened my mail program.
Cheers
downside
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You see that little globe icon, that is a link to a roots chatter's website ;) Didn't realise that Downside, I thought they put an address on their profile...you live & learn!
Back to the point in question. Yes, I would agree with you about Thomas Gent knowing about Harriet's illegitimate daughter. I would think the whole village of Amberley knew about it :o although things like that were fairly common place in those days.
I noticed on the LDS information you supplied yesterday about Edward & Ann joining the Mormon church on their wedding day, that Ann is down as Ann West, this is the first 'official' use of that surname I've seen. Her baptism was WAKEHAM, her marriage was in the name of WAKEHAM. Perhaps she was asked to provide the name of her birth father & knowing that was Barnard WEST, that's what she said. Is there any way of seeing that document? It might be the reason why the LDS has her with the name WEST WAKEHAM.
jane
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Hi Jane
I think the first course of action is find out what name she put in the father column of her marriage certificate. If she did put Barnard West then it solves the whole problem, which is why I keep asking if someone would be kind enough to look it up.
If Barnard is not mentioned on the marriage certificate then it becomes more complex. I have already written to one submitter who has her listed on rootsweb.com but have received no response. I suppose I'll have to write to the LDS submitters who have included her in their trees and ask them for their sources. It will be a long process as there are no email addresses. As the files were submitted some time ago some of them may be dead by now. I also suspect that all those LDS church submitters might be copying each others data - so it could be the blind leading the blind.
Let's see what the marriage certificate says.
Cheers
downside
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Hi Downside,
Do you think the parish register entry for Ann's marriage will give her father's name? The only way I know of getting that information is by purchasing the certificate or possibly on the BVRI...why don't you ask specifically for a BVRI look-up..
I think you're right about the LDS members copying each others submissions :(
jane
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Hi Jane
Any parish mariage certificate up to around 125 years ago should be available from a County Record Office. I am not sure if there is a 100 year ruling on BMD records. Local authority family research centres update their collection from time to time. They can be printed via microfiche if you want a copy. You can view more recent parish records if you ask the local priest or his clerical asssistant. It seems to vary from parish to parish.
I don't know how to get hold of Mormon records though. If Ann and Edward were baptised into the Mormon faith on their wedding day, is there a record of that event and if so are there documents relating to that event and did she put her real father's name down somewhere on that document?
Cheers
downside
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Hi
The parish register entry for a marriage this late should have father's name. Don't think I'll have time today but will definitely go next week. Shame about yesterday - did eventually get tickets booked after 5hrs. Something to look forward to in August :D
Cheers Jan ;)
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Hi Janan and Jane
On Saturday I sent an email to the Brighton History Centre requesting details on Ann's marriage certificate. I've never dealt with these people before so I didn't know what to expect. I received a reply this morning:-
Dear Raymond,
the following information appears on the marriage certificate :
Ann Wakeham
Full age
Spinster
Occupation - servant
address - 40 Portland Street, Brighton
name of father not given
regards, Paul Jordan, Brighton History Centre
So Janan you can scratch it off your To Do list.
Jane, thanks for your massive input.
Now the really difficult bit begins, trying to find some documentation that specifically names Barnard West as her father.
Thanks for all your help
downside
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Hi Raymond (nice to know your real name :))
This is a real mystery! Why LDS sources should link Barnard West to Ann Wakeham, that's probably where you should begin, by contacting one of their UK branches & asking if there would be some documentation from 1849. Was it St. Nicholas, Brighton they married in? That's not a Mormon church is it? I was just reading a bit about entry into the church & it's quite a cermony with full immersion for the baptism.
No witnesses on her marriage certificate? Just wondering that maybe, Barnard, being in Broadwater in 1851 & possibly a good family friend & neighbour might have given her away or been a witness & somehow his name has mistakenly been put down as her father...clutching at straws I know...
Do let us know how you get on,
jane
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Hi Jane
If you hover over the globe icon on my profile and look at the status bar at the bottom of your screen it offers you a clue as to my real identity.
I didn't want to push my luck on the Brighton lookup. It's free of charge providing it takes under 10 minutes. I think she would have entered her father's name if she knew it? How did she regard Barnard when she lived next door to him in Rackham? A friendly neighbour? A friend of her deceased mother? A lot of things do not make sense. Maybe she learnt about who he really was much later in life.
Edward and Ann were baptised into the mormon faith on the day of their wedding. I think if she did not know that Barnard was her real father around that time then obtaining details of the baptism may not be much use. The LDS sell CDROMS and various CD numbers are cited by the submitters on the IGI site. Whether they quote SOURCES or not is the big question. I suppose I could try and find if anyone has these CD's out there and see if they have any sources.
downside
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Hi Raymond
I've checked at the RO for any bastardy order but if there ever was one it hasn't survived :'(
Jan ;)
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For what it's worth in 1841 it is only a single dash between the Wests and the Pescotts and then another single dash before Ann Wakeham - so they appear to be living in the same house.
Jan ;)
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Hi Janan
Thanks for that. I forgot you were going to Chichester R.O. I should have asked you to check the witnesses on the marriage certificate just in case they yielded any extra clues.
Cheers
downside
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Will do that next time I go
Jan ;)
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Dear Jane,
I have been browsing and notice that you have a connection between the Braby's of Sussex and Surrey at long last!
I would be interested in where the connection is so that I may link them up.
Regards
Fosbeck
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Hi Fosbeck,
we've had an exchange on this subject a while back...give me a minute & I'll dig out the info,
jane
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Here we are...
You were linked through Thomas Braby & Mary Kent in Amberley. I'm afraid I haven't got anymore to add :(
jane
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Thanks Jane - I will trawl my paperwork and take another look.
Fosbeck