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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Subaru on Wednesday 07 June 06 22:42 BST (UK)
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Hi
I have been looking for years for some kind of record of my grandfather, my mam's dad. I have come to the conclusion that there is some kind of family secret, but my mam doesn't know anything about it.
My mam has always told me that his name was Thomas Forde, that he was born abt 1873 in Roscommon, Ireland. And that he was in the Coldstream Guards, was in WW1 and the Boer war, received medals, and was injured in the war.
After extensive research over the years, I have found nothing. The only things I have are his death certificate, filled in by my uncle, and my uncle's birth certificate. I feel that my uncle may know something, but he wouldn't tell me if he did, as he is nearly 90, and gets very cagey talking about him.
On my uncle's birth certificate, my grandfather and grandmother have put down their marriage date, but when GRO did a search for that date, and a year either side, they found nothing. My grandmother's name was Ethel Main, born in Norfolk abt 1892. As there was nearly 20 years between them, I wondered if he had been married before, and never divorced. So maybe she took his name, without the marriage. My uncle was born in Glasgow, but their marriage was put down as 31st January 1919, London, England. This seemed very definite to me, so I thought I had found something, but I have had my money refunded.
He left Ireland when he was very young, on his own, apparently and came to England to join the army. I have done lots of research, and there is no sign of the correct Thomas Forde in the Coldstream, Grenadier, Scots or Irish Guards.
I even thought he may have taken somebody else's name, or made one up.
Does anybody have any suggestions where else I can look? He was an electric welder on my uncle's birth certificate, and worked at Vickers shipyard for years.
I feel very downhearted, and I'm ready for giving up on this branch. But this is the one person who I started off looking for, for my mam. Her mam died when she was 3, and her dad died when she was 15. She would love to find something out about his family in Ireland, or his record in the army. That is another thing, my uncle has supposedly lost my grandfather's army medals, which would have his number on.
I realise many people do come to a dead end at some time, but it's so frustrating, I would love to know if there's anything else I can do.
Rosemary
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Hi Rosemary
Don't get down hearted. Keep plugging away.
I have found a couple of T Forde's in the National Archives WW1 Campaign Medals listing but neither were Coldstream Guards:
One was a T J E Forde, North Irish Horse - L't
and the other was T Forde, Leinster Regiment - Pte
There was also a T Forde, Durham Light Infantry - Sgt
Are any of these possible?
Gadget
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Hi Roz !
There is one Thomas Charles Ford
Medal card of Ford, Thomas Charles
Coldstream Guards
19575
Private
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jg/
Annie :)
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I have already tried the Coldstream Guards, many times, without success. They have been very kind and thoroughly searched their records.
The othe T Fords, I really don't know. I would have to see the records of these men, to see their injuries, which could get quite expensive to check every T Forde. I recently paid a researcher in London, through Great War Forum, who was very kind and helpful, photocopying all the records of a certain T Forde, who I thought was my grandfather. But this man had no injuries. My grandfather had a finger and a toe missing on one side of his body, and shrapnel in his head, and was gassed. It's a pity you can't access injury records online, it would save a lot of money and research.
You can't even see the date of birth on the medal records, so I would have to pay each time I accessed a record.
Thanks for your help though, I may yet try those others.
Rosemary
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Rosemary
You say your uncle is very cagey about his father. Instead of asking him outright about him, is it worth having a chat with him about how you feel and what you have so far done to find info on your grandfather. Get him to talk about what he remembers about Glasgow in the 1920s, the shipyard etc. Just get him talking about his youth. He might then say something that could give you more clues.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget
Thanks for replying. My uncle lives 2 hours away, so we don't get together very often. He knows how far I have gone in my research, I wrote him a long letter years ago, when I first started searching. He gave me dates, and information that he knew about my grandfather. He may not know anything at all, it's just a feeling that I have. Maybe he just feels himself that there is something, and doesn't want me to go any further, which is what my mother is telling me now.
I don't think he was very old when they moved from Glasgow to Newcastle, so he won't remember much.
I might write again, and tell him how frustrated I am with the search. You never know, it might help him to remember something.
Thanks again
Rosemary
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Well Rosemary, if it's only 2 hours away, I'd be off like a shot. Take him a present. I spend at least an hour a fortnight listening to my elderly (83) cousin on the phone. He lives 9 hrs (speeding driving) away. He loves to talk about his experiences and memories.
I hope you do contact him.
Gadget :)
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Hi Roz, Just a suggestion to your plight. I have had similar problems, I guess a lot of us do. Have you tried building your family tree on genes in the hope that a distant cousin or relative may contact you. I have had two successes this way. One from Australia and one an hour and a half away from where I live. They have been able to help me with both sides of a very hidden family background including a great grandmother instillied into a workhouse, another who was an alcoholic and inter married etc. They came out of the blue and Im sure someone will be able to help.
Good luck Jessy :-\
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I'd check the Glasgow marriage records for a marriage after your uncle's birth; they might have just said 'we married last year in London' to make it look like he wasn't illegitimate.
If you have any photos of him in uniform there are some people over on the Armed Forces boards who are absolute whizzes at identifying these things.
Also given that Ethel would have been in her mid-twenties she may well have been widowed - perhaps in the war - and therefore listed under her married name. I had this problem: no mention of it on her son's birth certificate, but she was married, widowed (tuberculosis, her husband was only 20), and married again before she hit 21. Made it very hard to find her second marriage!
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I'd check the Glasgow marriage records for a marriage after your uncle's birth; they might have just said 'we married last year in London' to make it look like he wasn't illegitimate.
I had a good look on SP yesterday.
Gadget
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Then I'm guessing your hunch is right, and they didn't marry for whatever reason. Have you tried over on the Armed Forces boards? I think some people there have medal rolls for the Boer War.
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Hi everyone
Thanks for all your help. Yes I've tried most armed forces websites, including this one. I don't have a lot to go on, and I'm not sure if I'll ever find out which regiment he was in, not without his army number.
I've also built my family tree on genes, and have had contact with two distant cousins of my mam's on her mam's side. Also a distant cousin on my husband's side through them. I would definitely recommend it to anyone. But on all the websites I've used, nobody has come up with anything on the Fordes. I think it's a full stop.
I am going to sit tonight and write a long letter to my uncle, and ask him to write back with as much information as he can remember about his mother and father, hopefully something may come up that hasn't before. I have tried Ethel Main in the marriages to see if she was married before. There was one, with somebody I can't remember now, but it turned out to be somebody else's relation, and not mine.
Anyway thanks again
Rosemary
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Rosemary,
I came across this one while searching for another Boer War related thread.
I have the medal rolls for the Foot Guards in the Boer War.
There IS in the Coldstream Guards roll a Private T Ford (no E). Service number 21
Awarded the clasps for Cape Colony, Paardeberg, Driefontein, Johannesburg, Diamond Hill, Belfast.
Ford/Forde is so close that it could simply be down to a clerical error.
Doesn't appear on the casualty roll so wasn't injured in South Africa.
Neil
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Hi Neil
Could you please explain 'clasps'? I haven't heard of that medal/award. I have been trying both versions of Ford/e. Are the places listed the places he fought at? How did Belfast come into it?
It would be nice if it was my grandfather, but I'm not hopeful. the Coldstream Guards did a thorough search for me years ago, and the dates etc didn't tally.
Thank you so much for replying
Rosemary
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Hallo, Rosemary
In effect there are two types of medal - awards for bravery and campaign medals.
A campaign medal is issued to service personnel who served in a campaign (or a war) such as the Crimean War, the Boer War, the Great War etc.
In a campaign there may be several individual battles or significant events (eg in the Crimean War there were battles at Inkerman, Balaclava, Sevastopol etc). A clasp was issued to service personnel who werer at the battle or event.
A clasp is a strip of metal, rather like a tie clip, with the name of the battle (and the date) on it. The clasp is attached to the ribbon of the campaign medal.
The picture below shows (left) the Victoria Cross and (right) the Boer War campaign medal with one clasp.
Hope this helps.
Philip
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Sorry Rosemary,
Should have explained myself!
The medal referred to is the Queens South Africa Medal for Boer War service.
Clasps were awarded depending on service as Philip says.
Perhaps some webpages/photos will explain it better
http://homepages.tesco.net/~medals/qsam.htm
Qualification for the clasps is set out here
http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/boer_war.htm
Belfast in this case, as you've probably guessed by now, is the site of a battle in South Africa.
Neil
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Hi Rosemary,
Have you tried putting together a time-line for the location of the Coldstream Guards as it relates to readily available data, like, census years?
Example: in 1891 the Coldstream Guards were located (I do not know where, I am just making an example) Suffolk. Then look for last name matches, etc.. For this example there happens to be a George Thomas Ford born Ireland c1872 in the infantry in Suffolk.