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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: marp on Wednesday 07 June 06 06:14 BST (UK)
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Can someone help please? I am looking for a Sarah Ann Brown (or Hall Brown) born Ripley about 1852. She married a Joseph Cresswell in 1873 and died in child birth 14 June 1879.
Sarah Ann was born out of wedlock and apparently her father was Joseph Hall (of Ripley) . Joseph Hall was already married and he and his wife Mary decided to bring up Sarah Ann. She was sometimes named Sarah Ann Hall Brown. Any information on Sarah Ann and her mother (name not known) would be appreciated.
Thanks, marp
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FreeBMD Birth
Mar qtr 1853 Belper (covers Ripley)
Sarah Ann Brown
Cert should give mothers name
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Sarah Ann doesn't seem to be with Joseph and mary Hall in 1861
1851 next door to Joseph and Mary Hall lived Isaac and Hannah Brown anf family!! Interesting???
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Amazing how the same names crop up from different threads!
An odd hour in the Family Records Centre, in Clerkenwell, turned up some confirmations. Nothing vastly new or different, but the Records Office folio codes, attached below, might help.
The nearest births to the suggested date and location, as I could see in the indexes, seem to be:
Dec 1852 Sarah Ann Brown Basford 7b 109
Mar 1853 Sarah Ann Brown Belper 7b 407
Mar 1853 Sarah Hall Belper 7b 416
The second of these confirms the FreeBMD entry posted by Suzard.
I note, with no particular relevance, that there is a death registered:
March 1853 Sarah Hall Belper 7b 339
Of course, the index at that date gave no other information, for example age.
The marriage index shows:
March 1873 Joseph Cresswell Belper 7b 707
March 1873 Sarah Ann Hall Belper 7b 707
This would indicate that, by the time of her marriage, Sarah Ann was using her adopted name: I could find no similar reference to a Sarah Ann Brown.
The index shows births for various Joseph Cresswells:
Mar (i.e. first quarter) 1851: none
June 1851: Belper (XIX 518)
Sep 1851: Wheatenhurst (XI 519)
Dec 1851: none
March 1852: Dudley (6b 136)
June 1852: none
Sep 1852: West Bromwich (6b 503)
Dec 1852: none.
There's one obvious candidate there.
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this issue.
The 1851 Census is hard work. The original manuscript is in a (to my eye) very poor hand. The attempt at a transcription is, understandably, pretty iffy. Anything in "quotation marks" in the following is my pathetic attempt to decipher the screen image:
In the Ripley section, down to index 92 the place of residence is “Marehay”
Then we get the unintelligible:
93 “Weston shop”
Joseph Hall Head 35 Coalminer Derbyshire Denby
Mary A -ditto- Wife 31 Coalminer’s wife "Salapshire" Long Sore
Elizabeth -ditto- Servant 16 House Servant Derbyshire, "Louse Niped"
94 "Westan Spat"
William Stevenson Head 32 Farming 6 acres "& jabing cow" Derbyshire, Ripley
Candace -ditto- Wife 29? Farmer’s wife Derbyshire, Ripley
William -ditto- Son 15 Ag Lab Derbyshire, Ripley
Mary -ditto- Daughter 9 Scholar Derbyshire, Ripley
"Jeanney" -ditto- Daughter 6 Scholar Derbyshire, Ripley
95 Marehay
John Whysall Head 25 farming 35 acres land Derbyshire, Ripley
John Whysall Visitor 64 NK Derbyshire, Ripley
Rebecca Whysall Visitor 64 NK Derbyshire, Shottle
Mary A Visitor 25 NK Derbyshire, Ripley
William Visitor 24 NK Derbyshire, Ripley
Thomas H Visitor 21 NK Derbyshire, Ripley
Sarah Buxton Servant 14 House Servant Derbyshire, Ripley
That could be the Hall household, before Sarah Anne's arrival, and (heh! heh!) just two away from an interest of my own. Where on earth "Long Sore" (although presumably in Shropshire) and "Louse Niped" could be is anyone's guess.
I do not know if any of this helps. If I can clarify any of it, please come back at me.
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Actually (and I'm no lawyer), I cannot see how I breached anyone's copyright in the previous posting — someone, somewhere is being a trifle precious. I cited publicly-available information, legitimately obtained in a public record office (the Family Records Centre, London). I edited and re-presented the material — so the edit is, surely and technically, MY copyright; and further editing it by deletion is a breach of MY copyright (which I gladly waive). Funny thing, this mania for faceless censorship.
However, to the main event. For Mary Ann Hunt, refer to the thread "Re: CRESSWELL look up please", in particular the posting, reply no. 18, by Spendlove on Wed 07 July 04. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,8792.15.html
PM SENT
copyright_editor
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Looking at 1851 and to me "Long Sore" looks like it should be Shrewsbury -but spelly Shros -with bury written above
Wm Stevenson occ "Farming 6 acres of Corn -"jobing" written above -think should be "jobbing" -i.e. "a jobbing farmer"-farmer without own farm
Elizabeth Hall 16 Servant p.o.b. "Louse Niped" Derbys -think this is ? House (house written above "Niped"- There is Hosrley Woodhouse nr Denby - could at a stretch be "Hsywd House " ??? abbrev of Horsley Woodhouse????
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Nice one, Suzard: many thanks and admiration for your usual insight and expertise.
If you have a moment, can you equally try your trained and knowing eye on the placename for the 1851 census registration location, households 93 and 94 on the same page (which I desperately rendered as "Weston/Westam Spat/Shop").
My reason is that I am trying to establish the geography of Ripley, especially Marehay and environs, mid-1800s, when several of my mob were living around there. Knowing the locations may help me to work out some complex pre-1837 relationships. There is, for example, one ferocious bust-up over various rights (and perceived rights). It also seems to have been a close (i.e. almost "normal for Norfolk") community.
And, in general, how far are we to clearing up the various Cresswells and (now) this odd Brown/Hall?
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It looks like Western Spot but...... it is entered individually for each house-could be Western Shaft but..... on one entry the second word looks like SPU???
Enumeraters walk in 1851 was (I have included some Head of households-ones which "rang a bell")-you can have more if you wish?
86 through to 91 (2 households entered as no 91) Marehay
92 Western S?? Isaac brown
93 - Western S??? Joseph Hall
94 Western S -Wm Stevenson
95 Marehay -John Whysall
96 through to 103 Western S??
104 Woodside
I am on the way to sorting my Cresswells.
The Browns were a very large Denby family -married into Spence, Abbott as well as Cresswell-even Browns married Browns in Denby
I have (on paper) marriages 10 Dec 1844- 20 Oct 1894 for St James PC Codnor (many from Denby married there)
if you need any look ups?
There is a Whysall/Bryan marriage 1850
Whysall/Cooper 1855
Hickton/Whysall 1860
Fletcher-Whysall/ Burton 1861
Suz
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I have distinct feelings of guilt at sequestering Marp's original thread; but obviously this is getting further into my particular interests.
My ulterior motive here is to start tying up loose ends: for example, I see my scratch-pad index (i.e. all the trivia that one accumulates but never manages fully to cross-reference) amounts to some 40 "John Whysalls" over three centuries — and that's only the worst example. Anything you (Marp or Suzard) may have is of interest, even if it merely adds to the sum of my blundering ignorance.
As for Marp's original point, can I summarise? Birth, marriage and death are fully established. Presence in the 1861 and 1871 censuses was probably established (then censored) — but, inevitably, I seem to have discarded that reference; so it's back to the FRC, and then smuggle it past the all-seeing editorial eye. That apart, from here on it would have to be local records, I guess.
I have a listing of non-conformist baptisms for Belper. A quick squint at that turned up Joseph Hall, baptised Belper Primitive Methodist, 24 July 1837, and a Sarah Brown, also Belper Prim Meth, for 30 Oct 1835.
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Long, boring comment now follows.
As I suggested before, there are just three possible births in the index which match Ms Brown/Hall:
Dec 1852 Sarah Ann Brown Basford 7b 109
Mar 1853 Sarah Ann Brown Belper 7b 407
March 1853 Sarah Hall Belper 7b 416
We also know, from the Family Records Centre index for marriages, the Sarah Ann in question was married in her “adopted” name:
March 1873 Joseph Cresswell Belper 7b 707
March 1873 Sarah Ann Hall Belper 7b 707
Indeed, it may be worth knowing if she had a natural mother still living.
When we start looking at the 1861 census, I assume we can ignore the Dec 1852 birth in the Basford district, as out of area. That leaves just two possibilities. What comes next is taken from my reading of the 1861 census: for reasons that are explicit from my earlier, censored and mangled contribution to this thread, I am having to be circumspect (and unnecessarily wordy).
Sarah Hall, presumably she whose birth is in the index for the March (first) quarter of 1853 (reference 7b 416, cited previously), would appear to be the daughter of William and Sarah Hall. On census-night, 7 April 1861, she is safely tucked-up at home with her three sisters and four brothers. Her birth-place is declared to be Swanwick.
The same night, there is a slightly-older Sarah Ann Brown, Belper-born, aged 9, in the household (12 Long Row, Belper) of her parents. Her parents are Jesse Brown (age 32, “Hosiery Warehouse Clerk”) and Orah Brown (age 37: b. Belper). Also in the house is Martha Brown (aged 18: “sister-in-law”, b Belper) and another daughter, Florence Brown (aged 2: b Belper). There are lodgers: Thomas Flint (aged 22: b Notts) and his wife Amelia Flint (aged 17: b Blakesley, Lancs).
There are two possibles for "Sarah A Hall" in the 1861 Census:
At 66 Laund Hill, Belper, we find the family of John Hall (aged 38, Labourer; b. Belper) and Mary Hall (aged 33, “wife”; b. Belper). They have three daughters: Sarah A Hall (aged 8; b. Belper); Eliza Hall (aged 2; b. Belper) and Pheoby Hall (aged 4 months; b. Belper). Hmm: not likely.
But all is not lost!
At Capel Cottage [which seems to be on or off the Burton Road], in St Werburgh’s, Derby, there lives James Bennett (aged 53, Labourer: b. Marylebone, London) and his wife, Jane Bennett (aged 42, b. Chadderton, Derby). They have three children: Georgeania (aged 15, “House servant”, b. Ripley — “Surrey” has been superscribed in a different hand, almost a scribble); Joseph (aged 8, Scholar, b. Summerhill, “ditto” – presumably ditto to “Derby” in entry for Jane Bennett) and Paul (Son, aged 6, Scholar, ditto [to Summerhill]).
There is something very fishy about the “Surrey” addition. The original enumerator did not feel any need to include it in the entry, even though the county names have been scrupulously entered previously. I believe Summerhill may be a farmstead near Monyash, Derbys, by the way.
Now: roll of drums; crash of cymbals…
Also in the Bennett household for census-night is Sarah A Hall (Visitor, aged 8, Scholar, b. Ripley “ditto”, – presumably ditto to “Derby” in entry for Jane Bennett). The handwriting for the “ditto” is that of the original enumerator, and the various “dittos” are, to my eye, definitely for Derbyshire. The modern transcriber (i.e. the ancestry.com apparatchik) is in barbed-wire canoe territory here: no way can that ditto refer to the superscribed “Surrey”.
Q.E.D.
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I will re-enter the discussion after an absence. Thanks to all of you for all the information. Sarah Ann Hall Brown (my great grandmother) according to family anecdotes was the daughter of Joseph Hall (son of William and Sarah Hall and baptised 11 February 1815 in Denby) and a servant girl living in the household.
So I found John Whysall's information that on the 1861 census night Sarah Ann was in the household of William and Sarah Hall (parents of Joseph) very interesting indeed.
I have one established piece of information: Sarah Ann (as discussed above) was the wife of Joseph Cresswell and died age 27 on 14 June 1879 and is buried in Ripley cemetery. Her eldest child Joseph Cresswell was brought up by his grandparents Joseph and Mary Ann Hall and they appear in the 1881 Ripley census.
1851 census Joseph was listed as age 35 occupation coalminer; wife Mary age 31; daughter Elizabeth Hall age 15 house servant.
1861 Census Ripley Derbyshire Location Weston Spot, Derby Rd, Ripley
RG9/2512 Folio 11 sch 65
Hall, Joseph age 44 Head, Grocer & Beer Seller Born Denby
Hall, Mary age 38 wife, born Shrewbury
In 1871 census RG10/3585 Folio 36 Sch. 73 location Green Hillocks, Ripley Derbyshire listed Joseph Hall aged 55 occupation inn-keeper born Denby, his wife Mary Ann Hall aged 51 born Wolverhampton(?) and daughter Sarah Ann Brown aged 17 born Ripley. Hannah ? servant aged 12 born Ripley, John Statham- Lodger age 47 Occupation labourer born Overseal, Derbys
***Joseph Hall was the publican at “The Rising Sun” Marehay, Ripley (this is information from family members)
In 1881 Ripley census address Buttterly Hill, Joseph Hall born Denby aged 65 - Retired publican born Denby, Wife Mary Hall born Shrewsbury [Shropshire, England] aged 62. Joseph Hall Cresswell aged 7 born Ripley - grandson.
Thanks again for a great discussion.
marp
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Finally, I sent for Sarah Hall Brown's birth certificate. Sarah Ann was registered as the child of Isaac Brown (coal miner) and his wife Hannah (formerly Burley) on 31 January 1853 in Ripley. Her mother, Hannah Burley was born in Tadcaster, Yorks.
Sarah Ann however was not the daughter of Isaac Brown, her father was Joseph Hall. The Brown family and the Halls were neighbours at Weston Spot, Ripley according to the 1851 census! The Browns at that time already had two children.
marp
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Interested to read about the Whysalls and Cresswells.
Sarah Ann Hall Brown was the result of an affair between 2 neighbouring families. She was born on Jan 31st 1835 Weston Spot, Ripley. She married Joseph Cresswell B 1848 Ripley.
Joseph was the son of Joseph Cresswell B 1820 Denby and his first wife Eleanor or Ellen Hunt B 1826 Kilburn. Ellen died in 1849 so baby Joseph was living with the Hunt parents on Street Lane, Denby in the 1851C. By the 1861C he had rejoined his father and new wife Mary in Kilburn.
Joseph Cresswell and Sarah Ann had 2 sons - Joseph Hall Cresswell B Feb 14th 1874 Ripley and James Alfred Cresswell B Feb 20th 1876 Ripley. When Sarah died in 1879 the boys were split up - James staying with his father and Joseph going to his grandparents who kept a pub.
James youngest daughter Jessie went on to marry Cyril Whysall, hence the connection.