RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: runningbear on Sunday 04 June 06 17:26 BST (UK)
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i have two births in belfast, the first is GREENCASTLE urban number 7, the other is WHITEABBEY urban number 7? can anyone help explain these urban numbers? do they take in a few streets in a area? has anyone else come across this urban number thing?
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Hi Joe
I will try to explain this urban number thing........firstly urban districts were created by the local government (Ireland) act of 1898......this was based on a system of district councils which was introduced in England a few years earlier
the term urban relating to a city but in more general terms it signifies relating to population and housing located within a particular area and in your case urban no 7 Greencastle and Whiteabbey.......these are areas on the outskirts of Belfast about five or six miles from the city.......each area of Belfast was given an urban number relating to that particular area........for example.... i was born in North Belfast and on my birth certificate it says Belfast urban number 10 ......so in your case urban 7 was the number given to Greencastle...Whiteabbey.
i hope this helps you.
best wishes
pentio.
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AND!
Just for good measure,they could have recently been re-organised into a different area,or area's!
Don't lose hope though,there is an explanation of it all,somewhere 'close'!!
Goggy. ;) ;D
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Thanks for clearing that up I often come across these numbers and wondered what they refer to ,cant tell you the number of times i have been asked that ,something else I have learned
audrey
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hi pentio, wonderful stuff my friend, but my first urban number seven appears in whiteabbey 1885! not 1898 under the new housing act, the next appears in greencastle 1893, still not under the new housing act, it all gets a little confusing to someone from outwith of belfast, no doubt it all makes sense, i was rather hoping that the urban number took in a few streets, which in turn could help determine the street where ancestors where born, looking at the map of belfast area, greencastle is a big place and so is whiteabbey, what year did the urban numbers disappear from birthlines?
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hi audrey, it good to try and find things out, it gives you a better understanding of how things worked back in the 1890's
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hi goggy, let's hope it does not get all too complecated!!!!!!, it enough to drive you round the bend!!! only kidding pal, some wonderful people on this website and no doubt there will be an answer, pentio has explained a great deal already
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Hi Joe
I think the urban numbers disappeared from birthlines about 1973......i will check it out and get back to you in the next couple of days.
pentio.
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as late as that my friend? how do people work out what street they were born? this is a good topic, as there seems to be a great interest, in solving the great mystery behind urban numbers
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Don' mention getting 'lost' with urban no's joebhoy!If you are just entering this netherworld of Irish genealogy,take a bottle of wate and a bag of sandwiches.
I have a Stret address,no number,a birth cert;and urban no,changed since obtained,no answer from present site.
Also have checked ALL occupant's of said street,no sign of the name I'm after.Lot's of name's I now know "engraved on my heart"and some maybe family,in law's and friend's.
So, if your sanity is important think carefully about your going where even Devil's fear to tread!!
Goggy. ;) ;D
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wow goggy!!!, have i opened a can of worms regarding urban numbers?how did you manage to get a street name?
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Thanks for the explanations, pentio, goggy etc., I'm very new to Irish research and know nothing about this Urban numbering thing. Is there anywhere I can look up approximate areas in 1865 for Urban 3? And what might a listed birthplace of "332,belfast No 6,ant,ire" imply? Urban 6 in Belfast, and 332 possibly a subdivision of it? I'm afraid my geography of Antrim is minimal, but I'm willing to learn..!
- esse
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how did you manage to get a street name?
Hi,
After reading this thread, and also curious to see what they list with the ones that have urban numbers- I randomly picked 3 births to view off the UHF site that had urban numbers listed ( I had a few spare credits to use up). All three of the ones that I viewed listed an exact street address and even a number of the house.
I think you may have been just unlucky with your birth details Joe, as a few of them with urban numbers do seem to list the st address and also the house number.
Just like many other things in life, and like other parts of the United Kingdom, I think it just depends on the person who is filling out the forms if they list their exact address - I have a few birth certs from the NI GRO(my grandmother's for one,which just says Loughconnelly on hers) where it just gives the area of where they are born and no street or house name ( and they are without urban numbers the ones I have for my own family that do not list their exact addresses)
These below are off the three births which I randomly picked that had urban numbers ,one before 1898 and two after that date:
Urban 3 Belfast (1895):
13 LIFFEY ST
Urban 6 Belfast (1900):
11 WANSBECK STREET
Urban 2 Belfast (1907):
26 GAINSBOROUGH DRIVE
Kind Regards
:)
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hi esse, hopefully you will read the message below yours, once again someone has a birth before the 1898 reshuffle of the housing laws, my geography is rubbish as well and that's why i thought that the urban numbers took in a few streets, esse the more people that add to this thread the more we will get an understanding of just exactly what happened all those years ago
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hi cell, well done, good promotion for the uhf site, if that is the answer to all our problems that is wonderful, do you pay £6 for each search cell?, it is worth a try i think, could clear up a lot of confusion for everyone
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hi cell, have come across the uhf stuff i printed off earlier, i have 5 of the same persons name, 3 of the 5 have street names would you believe that the one i want just says ligoniel! would you credit that!
any help to anyone, i have urban number 5 (1871)
divas street
i wonder how many streets there was in ligoniel in 1892?
anybody any idea?
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Thanks Cell, Liffey Street gives me at least some idea of where Urban 3 may be - it's not listed as a street on Google Maps for Belfast, but doing a bit of searching I can see it's associated with Lower Oldpark - and there are plenty of Oldpark streetnames just north of the Crumlin Road, which is the kind of area where my Derry Street is. But I'm still learning about Belfast street geography.
It just surprises me that I can't find any maps corresponding to the Urban numbering schemes, which would make it really easy. Does anyone know if any exist online?
- Esse
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your doing well esse, let's hope there's something on-line, how did you associate urban number 3 with lower oldpark?
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Mad Googling :) For "Liffey Street" Belfast. It's definitely Crumlin area.
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Liffey Street definetely off the lower Oldpark Road, just where it splits off from the Crumlin Road. There were a whole bunch of streets there called after Irish rivers, Liffey, Shannon, Suir and others. I think most of it has now been knocked down now. I think Derry Street was off the other side of the Crumlin Road a bit further up and heading through towards the Shankhill.
terry
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thanks terry, hope esse picks this one up, have you got urban numbers too?
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Not got a clue Joe.... I lived in the area as a boy, thats how I know the street names but I never really came across the numbers thing until you started this thread. Most of my ancestors were from outside the city.
terry
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, do you pay £6 for each search cell?, it is worth a try i think, could clear up a lot of confusion for everyone
yes, same as you. - 5 views just on the given name that you buy.
I'm beginning to think it would be much cheaper if I paid a researcher to trace some of my lot ( but that's half the fun gone though isn't it) . The amount of money I've spent on the UHF site :'(. oh why, oh why can't people look at a few different names for 6 quid I don't know ( especially when it comes to simple spelling variants such as McNeill and Mcneil - you have to look at them both, and pay 6 pounds each for both searches on the names).
I personally think it's a rip off regrading this. If you could search on a few different names for the 6 pounds, I for one would take out a year membership with them ( I think you only get charged 4 pounds with them them for your searches if your a member and also access to some of the other areas of the site) . I think they would have a lot more customers if they changed their search method, in turn it would generate more money for them in the end of course.
kind regards :)
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Hi Joe....Esse
I have a very good knowledge of Belfast so if you have any queries please let me know and i will do my best to help you out
Joe
re your inquiry Belfast schools we talked about here is a link you may wish to look at ...it gives complete listings of all schools in Belfast with registers deposited in PRONI along with a reference number for each school it would help you before your visit to PRONI.
www.sag.org.au/aisnltrs/AISN0113.pdf
I also know that the PRONI have a list of old ordnance survey maps from 1830 to 1950 which would show how many streets were in the Ligoneil area in 1892
I am still checking out this Urban number thing for you its more complicated than i first thought......another explanation i got today was that Belfast was divided into grids and each grid was given a number.... for example North Belfast was allocated Urban 10...... these were used for ease of administration.
we will get to the bottom of it soon. :) :)
best wishes
pentio.
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complicated pentio! don't say that! surely there a logical reasoning behind it! maybe the logic behind it is that they knew that one day amateur genealogist would be looking it up and trying to figure it out, so they hid the files in proni!!!!, grid numbers sound quite feasible, but would that not be too big an area to call it an urban number?
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totally agree 100% cell, we are getting ripped off, but not just with UHF but with most genealogy sites, our hunger for knowledge is costing us, but never mind, we can only pay once, for we will take notes and pass it down the line to others, they will never need to use these sites, so in a few years they will be so desperate for customers, they will be offering free membership, back to the important bit, urban numbers, there is a good site called lennonwylie.co.uk that has lots of street address's for the likes of esse who may have not visited the site yet or for your self maybe, pentio is doing a lot of research into this, so hopefully we have an answer soon
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terry pal, please excuse my ignorance of northern ireland, from what you say about your family being born outside of Belfast, does this mean that only Belfast had the urban numbers?
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Joe.... yes the urban numbers only apply to Belfast. I have a few certificates from the Limestone Road area all as Urban No 2. Absolutely nothing similar outside Belfast that I can see.
terry
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that's amazing terry, isn't it?, that urban numbers only applied to Belfast!!! well it is good news for those researching outwith Belfast but a definite thorn in the side for those researching births in Belfast, thanks for that pal.
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One point struck me in the later post's,my problem urban No's were in the Repuplic,one started in District No 1,was later moved (?) to No2,from Waterford to a place called Athy!
I have a birth cert;copy,street name,no number,found street, and checked names there.
Found no trace of my people,cant find original birth cert;record.I'm in a barbed wire canoe minus flamin' paddle!
As said,take ration's.
Goggy. ;) ;D
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Hiya Goggy,
Rations? Why do you need rations? It all depends where you do your research. The Linenhall Library in Belfast has a Coffee Shop. PRONI has a Restaurant and Dublin City Library and Archive has a Reader's Cafe. When you visit these places you are requested to leave your canoe and paddle in either the river Lagan (if you are in Belfast) or the river Liffey (if you are in Dublin). A word of warning about the Dublin City Library and Archive ... ball point pens are not permitted .. pencils and laptops are OK. They supply pencils but if you require a laptop you need to take your own one with you.
Chris
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wow, my friend, i wonder if any rootschatters have an answer?
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Christopher,a very good evening to you!
Thank's for that info,the Liffey would be my choice,closer to the Guiness outlet isn't it?And that Cockle's and Mussell's Lady?
Seriously,If only Icould get over there it's a nap that my return home would be very,very,questionable!
With an Irish Mother,rellie's to winkle out,tale's and tune's to listen to,ahh,the leavin' of it all doesn't bear thinking about.
Be well.
Goggy. ;) ;D
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joebhoy.
I did a while ago get into a site that gave a recap of the rego district's old.and new number's,which is now long forgotten! But have a hunt yourself,keep nagging away at "Google"or whatever,time+patience and rootschat combined will get you the answer's.
Goggy. ;) ;D
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thanks for your support goggy, somebody somewhere has a logical and easy answer to all of this, it is just a case of getting them on here!!!!!
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Hi Joe
I have made lots of inquiries for you re this Urban number thing still waiting for some replies......the most logical answer so far would seem to be ....the areas were divided into grids for ease of administration simple as that ....will keep you informed of any further developments.
pentio.
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thanks pentio, this is growing to be an important issue with some people, like me they are desperate for some sort of direction in their urban numbers.
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joe
I will do my best to get to the bottom of it........we will get the answer soon i hope.
pentio.
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yes my man...... sounds very promising... pentio if you can sort this out now or in the near future this thread will help lots of people understand the policy behind urban numbers and it will also help those who are about to join rootsweb
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Hi everyone
I've just been redirected to this thread, I had just asked the same question.
I have a birth record from 1867 which gives birth place as
268, No 1 Belfast, Antrim.
Hope someone can work this number business out
Maureen
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keep your fingers crossed maureen, this whole thread is all about urban numbers, looks like you have urban number 1, but i do not know what the number 268 relates to? maybe a house number? pentio is trying to get to the bottom of it all, for us.
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ok ive got urban 4 1882
address 11 Balaclava Street thats of the lower falls road
1904
The belfast work house was also Urban no4 (its now the
City hospital)
1889
29 Ton Street is also no 4 that was down around Balaclava Street be side saint Peters Church.
colette
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Dispensary Districts were created by the Medical Charities Act 1851. When state registration of births and deaths started in 1864, each Registrar's District was coterminous with a Dispensary District, and each Superintendent Registrar's District was coterminous with a Poor Law District (containing a number of Dispensary Districts).
In urban areas, Dispensary Districts (and therefore Registration Districts) were often referred to by number, presumably in order to avoid the confusion of differing usages of names.
Over time, boundaries of Dispensary Districts and Registration Districts have changed - in all formal changes which I have found, the boundaries are defined my mereings (verbal descriptions), not by maps.
My personal experience (when my father died in April 2006) is that Registration Districts in Northern Ireland do not to this very day have maps to define their area. How on earth do they cope, you might ask - you will hardly believe it, but the Registrar rang the binmen in her District Council, and asked them if they collected from my father's house!
Adrian
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well done Colette, hopefully you can map the area off and say to everyone that urban number 4 runs from...... street to ..... street and within its boundaries it contains......... streets, i am so pleased you have come up with this information regarding urban number 4, as it will give everyone a fair idea of how many streets are involved in an urban area. does the 1969 street directory give any indication as to the whereabouts of urban numbers?
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that is some story Adrian about the binmen!!, thanks for sharing your personal experience with us, sorry to hear about the death of your father, my thoughts are with you at this time, regarding the districts and urban numbers, you have explained it all very well, i must say that if the local registrar cannot identify the urban areas(and she works for the council) what chance do we have?
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Joebhoy
Mine was a rural area, not an urban area, not that it makes much odds.
I am sure that it will make an interesting project for someone (eg a PhD student) to create suitable maps for us all to consult. Dispensary boundaries are not shown on the First Edition of the OS 6-inch maps (the maps predate the Act). But perhaps they are shown on later editions? (There is a small-scale map on the wall of the GRO in Lombard Street E, Dublin, showing the Dispensary Districts.) Then you would need to modify the boundaries to match all subsequent changes, and produce a before-and-after map for each change.
That PhD could take a long time coming.
Adrian
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i am laughing to myself here adrian, wait till pentio reads this!!, i am sure, well almost sure, okay maybe a little sure that pentio will soon sort it all out, what you have said all makes sense, we just have to section off belfast into the areas/urban numbers now and put it on this thread for all to see, any clever people out there than can do it?
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Just checked a couple more of mine, I have upper Oldpark / Ballysillan Urban no 8. I have one on one side of the Limestone Road no 2 & a no 9 on the other side of the road.
Not a lot of help.
terry
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everything and anything will help terry, the more people who post with their urban numbers the better and those who have identified their urban numbers, as you have read, maybe someone will need to take it up as a career!!
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Hi Joe :)
Oh ye of little faith..... i'm not done with this urban number thing yet not by a long way.....i will get the answers we crave for....as we speak i have a lady in Belfast who is making enquiries for us........i have hit one or two brick walls .... but i'm in the process of knocking them down....sorry this has taken so long....but it will be worth it in the end.
I have read the other postings....... they make very interesting reading.
will get back to you as soon as possible
pentio.
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pentio my friend, i would and never give up on you, i know that you have made this urban numbers your puzzle to solve, i have every faith in you, i do agree that this thread makes interesting reading, the more response this thread recieves the more pieces we all will have to fit into place, colette has done wonderful with urban number 4, i hope that helps someone with family born in that area
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Hi Joe and Others
I have been following this thread with much interest.
Last March when I was visiting my family back home, I made a trip to the GRO in Belfast to look up on few death entries.
I had found the entries that I was after but was not sure which is mine. The kind staff asked me if I know where they lived--luckily, I do know where--gave her the name of a street. She took out a huge volume and started to look up on that street in Belfast. Under every urban district, it will list all the streets' names. She found the correct urban district number and gave it to me.
I was able to identify the entries with this. I was able to obtain correct entries this way.
Have anyone make an enquiry at the Belfast GRO about this? Perhaps they would be able to enlighten you on this subject.
Kind Regards
Tees
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lucky lucky you tees, i think that most of us just have an urban number, i think one or two have street numbers and the lucky ones have street address's, no doubt you have learned through this thread that pentio is on top of this and it is just a case of waiting till he gets an answer, in the meantime it is great to hear stories like yours, could i be rude and ask you to put your urban number with the street address on the thread? it may help others
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I have found out where no 1 is (in 1867 anyway)
35 Pilot Street , which it turns out was down by the docks, I don't know how much of this area comes under no 1.
Turns out my gr/grandfather was a publican there.
Maureen
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yyyyeeesssss, well done maureen, did everyone hear that? urban number one is down by the docks, so we have pilot street as a starter for urban number one, anyone else got a street name in number one?
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Hi Joe
My urban number is 15 and the street was Balkan Street (this street is no longer there as the neighbourhood was demolished in 1960s).
Hope this helps a bit!
Cheers
Tees
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thanks for that tees. just a wee recap on the numbers:
no.1 docks area
no.2 gainsborough/limestone road
no.3 liffey street(lower oldpark)
no.4 balaclava street(off lower falls road
city hospital(formerly poor house)
no.5 divas street
no.6 wansbeck street
no.7 greencastle/whiteabbey
no.8 upper oldpark/ballysillan
no.9 limestone road
no.10 north Belfast
no.15 Balkan street
as you may have noticed we have no numbers 11,12,13,14, no one has visited this thread with these urban numbers, i hope this little recap is of some use to someone and hopefully those with a better knowledge of Belfast maybe be able to change it to better fit the bill
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Hi Joe
I have found out a little more information for you....still a wee bit to go..... firstly Belfast was split into 16 Urban Districts and 4 Rural areas..... this was current until 1973 when things changed from Urban districts to Electoral wards which is still the case today.......I have since found out that part of the docks area was known as urban 1 and 3 and the Oldpark Road area (middle section) was urban 10...no 5 was Divis street which is in the lower Falls Road area
Tees is right in what he says....when at GRO they will do a check for you and establish what urban number the address is under....of course one has to know the address first......we are getting there maybe not as fast as we would wish but progress is being made.
i will keep you informed of any further developments.
regards
pentio. ;D
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great great stuff pentio, i did not know there was 16! i only have 15 on the above thread! yes i do believe that if you go to the GRO you would get answers for your address, confirmed by your goodself and tees, you are making wonderful progress my friend and don't let anyone tell you anything different, we are all here sitting glued to our screens watching and waiting and waiting..... waiting... only kidding my friend, better to get it right rather than guess at it
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yes Joe i agree with you better to get it right than guess....as my father used to say patience is a virtue....... he was so right....speak to you soon
pentio.
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I have several certs for the Belfast Urban areas.
Urban 2 - Seaview St. - 1919
Urban 3 - Shannon St. - 1929
Urban 4 - workhouse - 1879
Urban 8 - Ballyvesey - 1874 (not certain of spelling)
Urban 9 - Cupar St. - 1905
and a little spanner to throw in the works at Belfast Rural 1 - Whiteabbey which conflicts with Whiteabbey as Urban 1. This is getting a little complicated.
Perhaps if we all have some Urban input we can create a reasonable map.
Good hunting to all.
J.A.M.
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Forgot to list Belfast Urban 13 which is Third Ave. - 1906. Third Ave. is in the Co. Down section of the city.
J.A.M.
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wonderful input jam, you will have pleased many readers who visit this thread in the hope for information about their urban numbers, i hope someone picks up on your urban number 8 and tells us if you have spelt it right, great to know we know have urban number 13, don't know about this rural number 1 being whiteabbey along with whiteabbey being urban number 7!!
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joebhoy!
Glad to see the slow but steady input to your query.Sorry I cant add my twopennorth,mine are all in the South.
More strength to everyones elbow!
Goggy. ;) ;D
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goggy your support is much appreciated my friend, you pop in and out as many times as you like my friend and it is great to have a wee message left, no matter if it does not concern the urban numbers.
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Thank's joebhoy!
I do have McCormicks from around Belfast somewhere,but pronounced McAmick! Too much on the plate yet to go for them,ain't we all?
Goggy. ;) ;D
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put it up on a thread goggy pal, you never know, some kind soul maybe do a street directory look up for the Mc Cormick's, lets hope when you find them you do not end up with an urban number!!!
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my trip to belfast threw up urban number 3, which is in oldpark road, oldpark road is huge i wonder if they spilt it? with urban numbers!
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Hi joe :)
i have been waiting very patiently as have you and everyone else interested in this topic for some more news re Urban numbers in Belfast......... hope to have some news in a couple of weeks.........my contact is on holiday at present.......will let you know as soon as i can....bet you thought i had forgotten about it....no way my frend....you mentioned Oldpark Road was huge...yes it is ...i was born there and as i said before my Urban no was 10......we lived half way up the road......i know the bottom half was urban no 3....speak to you soon....we will solve this mystery eventually. :) :)
pentio. ;D
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hi pentio, i never have given up hope on the urban numbers, i was so looking forward to meeting you in belfast, but such is life, cannot wait to find out the mystery
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Joe
sorry i missed the meet was very disapointed ...i had to take my son to a football tournament you know how it is........will try to make the next one.
pentio
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Hi there...
I have the following Streets listed on Births in Belfast urban #12
24 Crossley
48 Chadolly
35 Westbourne
24 Cluan Pl
68 Trillick st
6 Susan Stree
As Well the following in Belfast Urban #11
19 Castlereagh Rd
49 Belmont St
10 Donegore
All the Best
Wendy
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lots and lots of information there wendy, well done, hope that someone will a bit of time on their hands can review the posts to this thread and bring us all up to date with the urban numbers
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HI ALL
Urban number 8 is spelt Ballyveasey
it is near Ballyhenry.. in Carnmoney
Hope this little bit helps
Steve
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lots and lots of information there wendy, well done, hope that someone will a bit of time on their hands can review the posts to this thread and bring us all up to date with the urban numbers
Hi there...
I wonder tho...if maybe the boundaries have changed over time??? or with annexation of land and expansion of different area's of the city for instance? Might be something to consider....
All the Best
Wendy
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well done steve, thanks for the spelling and clearing that up.
i hope someone will correct me if i am wrong but the urban numbers no longer exists in belfast wendy, it is the boundries thing that we hope that the urban thing will sort out, our friend pentio is still working on the case
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Hi Joe and everyone :) :)
Sorry this has taken so long ...the lady contact i had in Belfast has moved jobs but do not despair i have been everywhere chasing this topic from Proni...to the Linenhall Library.....the Central library in Belfast and finally the GRO office in Belfast.
I was amazed at how little was known about these Urban numbers but after discussions with many people who have some knowledge this is the best i can come up with so here goes......it's not as complicated as first thought......well i hope not.
Firstly Urban numbers were introduced to Belfast and Londonderry around the late 1800's.........Belfast was split into 16 Urban Districts i am reliably informed that this was purely for ease of Administration........as you can imagine there were literally hundreds of streets in Belfast and to keep records in any other way would have been a nightmare for staff.
as well as being split into 16 Urban districts areas were sub divided which would explain why certain Roads such as the Oldpark Road were given different numbers eg.....the bottom half was 3 and the middle bit was 10...hope this is making sense.
There were also four rural or green belt areas as they were known these were areas which were outside the Belfast boundary i think the boundary was about 6/7 miles which would explain why Greencastle and Whiteabbey areas were later known as Rural 1 they initally had been allocated urban number 7 goodness knows why.
after 1957 we see a slight change if you were born in one of the four main hospitals in the Belfast area details of this were added to your birth certificate.....each hospital was given a ward name which i have added below so instead of an urban number on you birth certificate a ward name was put on it........confusing or what.
The Royal Victoria hospital was given the ward name of St Anne's
The City hospital was St Georges 1
Malone place was St Georges 2
The Mater was Clifton
so in effect if you were born in the Royal Victoria Hospital at the top of your birth
Certificate it showed where born....... St Anne's ward.... ie the name of the ward relating to that particular hospital
The GRO office in Chichester Street Belfast has a large volume containing all the relevent Urban numbers which lists all the street names and the relevent number allocated to each street.
everything changed again in October 1973 when the Urban districts were replaced by district Councils all births from that time were recorded on microfish......and in todays modern hi tec world all the records are now computerised which certainly makes things so much easier.
A recap on the Urban numbers we know
1. Pilot street ...Duncrue street
2 Gainsborough Drive.. Shore Road
3 Liffey street .. Suir street... Shannon street
4 Balkan street ...Ton street
5 Divis street..Lower Falls Road
6 Wannsbeck street
7 Whiteabbey...Greencastle....later known as rural 1 as it was
outside the Belfast boundary.
8 Upper Oldpark.. Ballysillan.. Ballyveasey
9 Limestone Road
10 Louisa street...Enniskillen street ..Druse street..Linwood street
Hillview street Bourton street Baden Powell street
11 Third Avenue.. Castlereagh street..Belmont Street..Donegore street
12 Crossley street...Chadolly Street.. Westbourne street..Cluan Place..
Trielick street...Susan street
it would be impossible to list all the streets in Belfast as there were so many.......so my advice is for people looking to find out where their urban number relates to is simply contact the GRO in person they can be contacted on the following number 02890..252136 or visit their website at www.groni.gov.uk/
I know this has been a long time coming but i do hope i have explained this urban number thing to everyone's satisfaction
best wishes
pentio. ;D ;D
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That's a brilliant piece of work there pentio. Well done.
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Thankyou Pentio
Colette
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Pentio,
You did the great job of explaining as to how Belfast comes to have these district numbers!
It is quite a fascinating reading on the city's history.
Yes, you are correct that the GRO have a large volume containing all the relevent urban numbers and lists all the street names under their respective Urban numbers. I myself have seen it in person when asking them to find out which Urban number my ancestor died in based on the street name I had.
Thank you for your hard work and being persistent in gathering information from various quarters! It is much appreciated!
Thanks,
Tees
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Christopher...Colette...Tees :) :)
thanks for the kind words............it was a challenge trying to sort out this Urban number thing..........a lot of people have shown an interest in this topic and it's always nice to be able to help......thats what i love about Rootschat everyone is willing to lend a helping hand.
Tees you are right Belfast has a fascinating history.
lets hope Joe who started the topic is happy with the result.
regards
pentio. ;D
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i never ever gave up hope pentio, but i did not expect anything like this!! it is amazing!! well done my friend. you have certainly explained everything and even taken the time out to put in the urban numbers, i take my hat off to you.
a lot of hard work has been done there pentio, i had no idea it was a complicated issue!! but it all has been worth it in the end, there is over 1500 views to this thread pentio, so that shows the keen interest that members have had regarding this topic.
i myself came over to Belfast in July and was amazed with the history of Belfast but this just amazes me more!!!
pentio my friend you deserve a big big pat on the back for this work THANK YOU ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi joe :) :)
I'm pleased you are happy with the result.......yes it did take a bit more time than i expected but we got threre in the end.
I was on holiday at the end of August which kept me back a bit my boys wanted to go to Spain for a relaxing week before returning to school.......well sort of relaxing we crammed everything into a week playing golf.... theme parks...swimming etc........phew i need a break myself lol........we all had a great time.
as you say there was a lot of interest in this thread so i am pleased that i was able to help.......i know you are in Scotland which makes things difficult at times when researching the family tree so if i can help you out with any other queries please don't hesiate to ask me......if you need any photos taken etc i would be happy to do it for you
Belfast as you say has a fascinating history and there is always something new to find..........when i was in the Library in Royal avenue i learnt a wee bit more about the history of some Belfast streets which made very interesting reading.
in the course of my own family research if i discover any more Urban numbers i will add it to my posting above which may help others.
speak to you soon
best wishes
pentio. ;D ;D
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my goodness pentio, i never knew that you managed to fit a wee break in as well!! after reading your posts it is no wonder it took months to research.
i like your kind offer of help, being in Scotland researching Irish genealogy is a bit of a pain, but never mind, i have made some lovely friends through rootschat.
i am very much interested in ligoniel, i would like to know when it was built and how many streets existed in 1880, when i was in ligoniel in July i was told it is now totally different from then to know, if you could help with a little research there i would be delighted, would it be a good idea to have other members post their interests in ligoniel?
that wee bit of history you learned about some Belfast streets may make interesting reading pentio, you may want to share it with others, why not start a thread?
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Joe :)
good idea i will have a look at my notes and post what informatiom i have gathered about some of the Belfast Streets...i think it will make interesting reading.....when i get some time i will have a look at he history of Ligoniel......will let you know what i caome up with.........i was born a few miles from there so i have a good knowledge of it.
pentio. ;D
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sounds wonderful pentio cannot wait......
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Joe :)
right this is my new project i'm on the trail of ligoniel ..will let you know what i can find out......promise not to take as long as the Urban numbers.....will be in touch.
pentio.
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Hi Joe, Pentio & all
Can I suggest that you start a new thread for your new line of research?
It will stop this one getting too long and maybe getting split at some inconvenient point, but it will also allow you to give an appropriate title to the thread & I know that others will be interested to read what you discover, as always.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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glad to hear you have taken up the challenge pentio, as will many others who have some connection to ligoniel, look forward to your new thread " Belfast street history" ? or street history of Belfast?
can't wait.....
Joe
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Arronroots...joe
good idea when i find out the relevent info i will start a new thread......history of Ligoniel
pentio. ;D
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Fantastic ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Joe
your welcome............research starts tomorrow....look for new thread soon
pentio.
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Hi everybody,
Just new to this forum and it was Urban Districts that sucked me in.
I haven't read all of the posts but I thought I would add my tuppenceworth. I have different Belfast Urban districts for the same street which led me to think that the urban distrcit was the place of registration - not birth / death. If however streets can have more than one urban then tht's the explanation. I have several districts - given a BUxx on the GRO index where xx is anything from 1 to 16, plus just B, for Belfast as I've seem Ban - for I presume Banbridge, but it could be Bangor, although I would assume Bangor would be Dow - for Down. Anyway, I have a variety of districts recorded. So my final question to all out there is about the district where the event is registered. If you event (birth/death) is in Belfast and you register in Castlereagh, is the registration district Castlereagh or is it the district of where the event too place?
Can you even register an event from another district or will the District Registrar chase you to another office once they here an address?
HMC
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Welcome to Rootschat HMC!
Generally,where the event occurred is 'generally'where it is recorded,that,s seemingly the rule,such as occur's at sea,abroad etc:
What niggle's at me is, this may not apply in all cases!Also why change numbers/location's of district's +rego; office's?
Too much is enough,red tape rule's.Not okay!
Happy hunting,
Goggy. ;) ;D
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Goggy
Boundaries of administrative districts have had to be changed over the years to reflect the changing numbers of persons and/or dwellings. Whole registration districts have come and gone over the 16 decades of civil registration.
If we fail to make such changes, we end up with nonsenses comparable with the famous "rotten boroughs" of the 18th century.
Adrian
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Adrian.
Thank you for that,it's good to know that not all Red Tape is intended to garrotte us!
However,my gripe/brick wall/search centres on 1911,so as you can see a double bind exist's.
Goggy. ;) ;D
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hi hmc and a big warm welcome to rootschat my friend, i started this thread hmc as i never knew how to go about finding out urban numbers and quickly learned that there was a lot of people like me out there with the same problem.
you keep posting all your inquiries hmc, someone may be able to help, if you do not ask, you will never know!!!!
see you are still got your probs googy.. hopefully one day soon my friend!
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G'Day joebhoy.
Thank's for the good wishe's.Gotta keep keeping on,have the feeling it's all under my nose,and just can't home in on it!
So near and yet so far.
Not to worry,we will get there one day,even if we have to ask the 'Big Fella'wot's wot!!
Goggy. ;) ;D
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great my friend, keep the faith, someone somewhere someday will have the answers to all your questings, but don't ask me!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D ;D
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I found another address.
91 Albert Bridge Road in 1885 was in Castlereagh No. 1
J.A.M.
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Hi all,
Castlereagh No. 1 in 1885 - I'm not so sure about this. As discussed earlier districts change over time and as far as I can make out GRO only recorded the district as Castlereagh back then. The address is probably now in Castlereagh No. 1.
If you look at the GRO index they have a District and a Centre. The Centre I think has only been used since 1972 / 3 which is the date from which the current councils exist. So I presume prior to 1972 / 3 everthing was just registered as Castlereagh, and since 1972 / 3 it has been No1, No2 etc.
The exception to this is Belfast which has been recording 'sub-districts' for many many years, anything from BU1 to BU16. I presume this is due to the numbers in Belfast.
Interestingly, although frustrating, is the fact that GRO can tell you which Belfast District a street is in but they are unable to tell you all the streets in a given district.
While I'm on about it are we soon going to have 'Inner East', and 'North West' recorded as districts as the councils are due to become super councils in the next few years.
HMC
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Hi again,
Come to think of it I can't see how 91 Albertbridge Road could be in Castlereagh, surely it's Belfast. I have 306 Albertbridge Road as BU12 in 1917, and Clermont Lane (used to at the bottom of Woodstock / Albertbridge) as Belfast in 1895.
HMC
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Can I add my twopennyworth to this thread please?
While looking for BMD certs for my husband's familymembers in West Belfast I have noted that nearly all of the refs are for Nos 10 or 3. No 10 covers Disraeli St off the upper Crumlin Road, and No 3 lower down the Crumlin Road - Brookfield St Ghent St. Walton St and Upper Malvern St. The dates range from 1873 to 1902. This suggests to me that the lower numbers are for older areas of Belfast and higher for the rapidly expanding outer limits.
Hope this helps.
Butlerclan
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so pleased to see this is still a good topic for inquiries for urban numbers.
hope you found all your certs butterclan.
how frustrating it must have been hmc to learn that the gro can you which district a street is in but cannot tell you the streets in a district!!!!!!
total madness!!!!!
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Check the attached for Castlereagh No. 1. I can't quite make out the address of Mary Agnes.
If anyone has any information on any McCalmont I would appreciate a pm. Thanks.
J.A.M.
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Hi J.A.M the address is number 4 CLANBRASSIL TERRACE which was of Castlereagh street Mountpottinger.
Castlereagh Street ran from the Albert Bridge Road to the Beersbridge Road.
Colette
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Colette,
Thank you very much for the clarification of the street name.
J.A.M.
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I have found this thread interesting reading! I have different urban numbers and districts for the same area:
1888 marriage certificate
RC church of St. Matthews, registrar district CASTLEREAGH, union of BELFAST, County DOWN
Groom lived at 41 Vulcun Street
Bride live at 171 Mountpottinger Road
1900 birth certificate
Registered in the District of BELFAST URBAN 11
address 195 Mountpottinger Road
1904 death certificate
Registered in the District of BELFAST URBAN 11
address 195 Mountpottinger Road
1923 marraige certificate
RC church of St. Matthews (same church as the 1888 marriage above)
registrar's district of URBAN 16, Union of BELFAST, County DOWN
groom lived at 18 Seaforde Street
bride lived at 3 Newtonards Rd
1939 death certificate
Registered n the District of BELFAST URBAN 16
address is 36 Seaforde Street
It appears that the Urban number changed in the interim from 11 to 16.
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thank you kptz,
thanks pal for sharing that info was us...yes it does make interesting reading...i wonder if belfast is the same as renfrewshire...they kept changing the boundries to suit the polictics of that time.
Joe
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thank you kptz,
thanks pal for sharing that info was us...yes it does make interesting reading...i wonder if belfast is the same as renfrewshire...they kept changing the boundries to suit the polictics of that time.
Joe
Your welcome -- Forgot one more!
1929 birth certificate
Registered in District of BELFAST URBAN 11
address was 59 Seaforde Street
kptz
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Urban no 3. Pleaseeeeee
Does anyone know if there was a Salvation Army home for unmarried mothers in urban 3 in 1930s? I now know urban 3 includes Lower Oldpark.
Thanks to anyone who reads this and can help.
flower
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Found Duncairn Avenue is in urban3. The place I was looking for was Thorndale House. Does anyone know anything about this place?
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Found Duncairn Avenue is in urban3. The place I was looking for was Thorndale House. Does anyone know anything about this place?
If you Google 'thorndale house' duncairn belfast lots of information comes up, including-
www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=9292.0
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Thanks aghadowey.
That was really helpful and clears up a mystery.
flower
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Hi
Just returned from Belfast records office ( to order marraige cert ) we also were having problems with urban numbers, we asked the the staff if he could explain urban numbers his explination was eg. urban 7 is now BT7 ie : a Belfast postcode .
Personally it seems too simple but this is what we were told
So hope this helps your search - good luck
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Does seem too simple - and is clearly wrong ::)
Even looking at the last few examples in this post:-
Duncairn Avenue - Urban 3 - postcode BT14
Seaforde St - Urban 11/16 - postcode BT5
Belfast Urban 7 (according to the notice on the wall at the General Registrar's Office) is the Greencastle/Whitewell area (postcode BT36) - BT7 is the University area (Belfast Urban 6). ??? ??? ???
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Eddies Extracts- Belfast Urban Registration Districts
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~econnolly/oextracts/oeurbandistricts.html
Moderator Comment: cut and paste material removed in accordance with the website and Rootschat policy- please use the above link to read the material