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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: robbyd on Saturday 29 January 05 11:12 GMT (UK)
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Hi l wonder if someone would be kind enough to look up the following for me?.
John PENFOLD c1836 Kent Hawker
Trinity PENFOLD c1835 ? Flower seller/hawker
In September 1861 John & Trinity had a son John who was born in Plaxtol so they should be there at time of Census.
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Robert
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Hi
Is this following on from the PENFOLD family in your other posts?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,28744.0.html
Are you looking for a PENFOLD child born before or after the 1861 census
Casalguidi
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Hi Casalguidi,
I`m trying to find out the birth place of John & Trinity, l know that there son John was born September 1861 in Plaxtol but all l know of John & Trinity is that they were both born in Kent.
I have found a lot of infp at a site called "passing through" but nothing on John Snr & Trinity.
Regards
Robert
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Hi Robert
Did you manage to confirm (by certificates or otherwise) that your Emily PENFOLD (married Frederick FARRELL) was the one born to Robert & Mary? I was a bit concerned that the one found in 1901 and 1891 was born quite a bit earlier than the one you were originally looking for.
Was John born Plaxtol the one known as Robert and who married Mary SAUNDERS?
There is this family in 1861:
1861 census
Hampton Wick (Annual Fair), Middlesex
Robert PENFOLD head mar 48 hawker b.Canterbury Kent
Phillis wife 45 b.Sussex
John son married 21 b.Hadley Essex
Renetta son's wife 27 b.Surrey or Sussex
Lydia dau 18 b.Surrey or Sussex
Henry son 7 b.Surrey or Sussex
Mary A dau 6 b.Surrey or Sussex
Jane dau 3 b.Surrey
Alfred grandson 1 b.Norwood Surrey
RG9/458 folios 135 to 137
Casalguidi
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Hi, Robert
My husband's great grandmother was a Penfold - she came from a long line of travellers, which throws up a few problems when trying to anchor them down!
I have found lots of Penfolds around the country, but as yet haven't linked them to the family I know for sure is ours.
This is the info from the 1901 census;
William Penfold M 28 Travelling Pedlar
Bessie Penfold M 24 Travelling Pedlar
John Penfold son 4
Thomas Penfold son 1
Christopher Penfold son 3mths
Living at 27 Calenick Street Kenwyn District, Truro, Cornwall.
I know that they went on to have 10 more children! One of them was Sophie, born 1902.
Do you think there may be a link with your Penfolds?
Best regards,
Frosty
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Hi Frosty,
Thanks for your message, l know what you mean when you mention the problems one encounters when trying to track down travellers.
At first glance l cannot see a connection, all my Penfolds originate in the Kent & Surrey area's.
Have you tried the Romany site ?, there's lots of info there.
Best Wishes & Good Luck.
Robert
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Thanks, Robert
Have not checked out the Romany site yet - do you know the address? Will do that.
Regards,
Frosty
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Hi again Frosty,
I don't know the exact address but the site is called " passing through" put that in to Google and you should get several hits.
Hope it helps.
Robert
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Many thanks, Robert! ;D
Frosty
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Hi guys
I am so excited with this new message board. Frosty...it's me , deb again, ....I have been doing a lot of research on our William and Bessie and have his birth cert ...it has confirmed that his dad was indeed THOMAS penfold who married SOPHIA(nee Orchard).....
I have also been using the Kent Romany message boards and have come into contact with a cousin who's father , christopher is the brother of our thomas. i have quite a bit of confirmed info....let me know if you have lost my email address or if you would like me to forward all my info to you vis email.
ps; my mum said it was lovely meeting you altho she had wished it was under better circumstances. hope evryone is doing well.
to Robbyd: have you tried the bbc kent romany message boards. i don't know the webaddress but if you google ...GYPSY CORNWALL PENFOLD it will appear ...go to the message boards...there are also archived messages that may be useful. the people are very kind and most helpful...most of them are still living the romany life style.
i don't know if our penfolds are related to yours ...i will look into it ... i do have a John penfold born in 1834 but he was baptised in Hampshire...his parents were John and harriet pinfold (nee james ) who married in august 1831 in pimperne dorset.
hope to hear from you both
take care
deb
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oops correction; i said that i had williams Birth cert...that meant to read william and bessie's marriage certificate where it states the fathers name...william dad was Thomas penfold ...hawker and bessie's father was John Palmer. Frosty by the way i have also researched Bessie Palmers side of the family and have come quite far especially with the help of the great people on this message board. if you go to the cornwall board and look under my posting of "Cornish Mystery" you will find out all about bessie's family ......Blimey ...it is sooooooo intricate and an unbelievable story ....
sorry robbyd, for using your post to talk to frosty. :-\
deb
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Hi again
Casalguidi, you mentioned "Romany Routes". I have also come across this 'magazine'(?) whilst googling the Penfold/Orchard names...... does one have to subscribe to it or can it's contents be viewed online somehow?
Hope this is not a silly question !!!?
thanks
Deb
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Hi Deb
It is the Romany & Traveller Family History Society journal for members
http://www.rtfhs.org.uk/
Casalguidi
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Hi Robert
I see from the transcript of the 1861 census of Hampton Wick that Casalguidi gave you, that the Grandson was born in Norwood. At about this time there were a family of Coopers one of the children of Robert Cooper went of to marry a Susan Penfold who was a widower at time.
After a while a few travelers settled in Croydon which is quite near and once again Penfold and Cooper Families are to be found around Wilford Road and Forster Road and a few buried in Queens Road cemetery.
With regards to the Romany & Travelers Family History Site it is worth a look at the links page from there you can go to Passing Through and also a link to Liverpool University site where they have a large collection of Romany details.
Hope this is of some help
Fifi
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Just a quick note to say that the "Passing Through" site is now hosted here on Rootschat
http://romany.rootschat.net/
Casalguidi :)
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Hi
Not sure if this will help or if you have this info
marriage of Robert Penfold & Mary Ann Saunders
10th May 1881 at Holy Saviours Church Croydon know then as St.Saviours
Roberts was 21 his farther John Penfold was decd living at 4 Holly Cottages, Pawsons Road.
Mary Ann Saunders age 18 farther William Saunders Hawker also at Holly Cottages Wittiness Noah & Janet Warne also it was bans not license.
(Janet would be trainet)
I have other Penfold marriage details i.e Rose Roberts daughter and a couple of others if you would like then let me know.
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Hi Fifi
Sorry it's taken so long to reply but l have been away on holiday, yes l would love any further info you may have.
Many Thanks & Kind Regards
Robert
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to fifi
I lived at 9 Wilford road until 1963 my grandparents were Harriet (Tiny) and James Cooper both in Queens Road old Tom and Harry Penfold lived at no 15 before the war there were over 80 dwellings after only 16! I have many memories which include all the residents its a pity that they should become lost
Hi Robert
I see from the transcript of the 1861 census of Hampton Wick that Casalguidi gave you, that the Grandson was born in Norwood. At about this time there were a family of Coopers one of the children of Robert Cooper went of to marry a Susan Penfold who was a widower at time.
After a while a few travelers settled in Croydon which is quite near and once again Penfold and Cooper Families are to be found around Wilford Road and Forster Road and a few buried in Queens Road cemetery.
With regards to the Romany & Travelers Family History Site it is worth a look at the links page from there you can go to Passing Through and also a link to Liverpool University site where they have a large collection of Romany details.
Hope this is of some help
Fifi
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To FIFI
it is still S.Saviours Church I was christened there by the Rev Field it used to have a school next door now demolished the head was a skilled artist
quote author=FIFI link=topic=159598.msg754923#msg754923 date=1149715554]
Hi
Not sure if this will help or if you have this info
marriage of Robert Penfold & Mary Ann Saunders
10th May 1881 at Holy Saviours Church Croydon know then as St.Saviours
Roberts was 21 his farther John Penfold was decd living at 4 Holly Cottages, Pawsons Road.
Mary Ann Saunders age 18 farther William Saunders Hawker also at Holly Cottages Wittiness Noah & Janet Warne also it was bans not license.
(Janet would be trainet)
I have other Penfold marriage details i.e Rose Roberts daughter and a couple of others if you would like then let me know.
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Hi Coopers
Noah Warne was my great great uncle, his sister Mary Ann was my great great grandmother.
His Wife Janet was sometimes Arienet, Trancett and Trainett.
I have a few Penfolds in my tree and I found a site with a lot of them in giving their baptisms, marriages and deaths.
Its http://Romany.rootschat.net/
Hope this helps.
Does anyone know if the name Warne is Romany or would it be Warren/Warn/Warne as I am getting different spellings.
Chellin2
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Hi everyone
Mention of the Coopers & the Croyden area makes me ask if anyone knows of the Mills family who married a number of Cooper girls.
I am trying to trace my 3 x gt grandfather Robert Mills who married Susannah Harwood/Haywood/Orwood/Allwood. He was the son of Thomas Mills, potter, & he & Susannah m in Newark, Notts in 1838. sadly, Susannah & their son both died in 1842 in Newark, leaving daughter Sarah b 1839 Newark, my 2 x gt grandmother the only survivor it seems of the family. No trace of them in the 1841 census or of Robert afterwards. I have so little to go on that I have been trying to go backwards in time from the census.
Aaron Mills hawker b c 1849 m Flora Cooper d/o Robert & Sylvia Cooper; William Mills m Sophia Cooper, & Moses Mills m Margaret Cooper, & in 1871 & later censuses they are in the Croydon area.
Does anyone know anything of this Mills family thru their research on the Coopers. I am having such great diffs with finding Robert & his family, that I would be intersted in any connections which might help.
Vimira
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Hi
Not sure if you already have this information.
1881 census - Half Acre Row, Mitchum Surrey
PRO Ref RGll Piece 827 Folio 66? Page 8
Aaron MILLS 1831 Hawker
Mary A MILLS 1833 wife
George MILLS1861 son
William MILLS 1863 s
Aaron MILLS 1870 s
Susan MILLS 1873 daughter
Eli MILLS 1854 Hawker
Jane MILLS 1853 wife
Jane MILLS 1874 d
Eli MILLS 1877 s
John A MILLS 1879 s
Aaron MILLS s
PRO Ref RGll Piece 827 Folio 67 Page 11
Joseph MILLS 1818 Widow
Eliza MILLS 1857 Daughter
Susan MILLS 1858 D
Louisa MILLS 1861 D All of the above Hawkers
Divino MILLS 1867 Son
Henry MILLS 1871 S
(copied from my 1881 spreadsheet compiling other Romanies living where I've found my Gardners/Penfolds etc)
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Yes thanks - I did have them. I think Joseph m twice; first to Rose ?, secondly to Naomi Franklin. Can't seem to get further back with Joseph, can't find marr certifs - he may have been baptised 1822 Iden Sussex, which seems to fit; and his parents Thomas Mills & Henrietta would fit ok with my Robert whose father is Thomas on his marriage cert.
I think I have to check the orig parish record to see if they were travellers. There are very few entries in IGI for Robert - I'm beginning to think he may have changed his first name, or used Mills as his mother's maiden name. I have seen in some records that they also used Smith.
Does anyone have any early records of the Mills families, I wonder. Robert would have been born c1815 - 1820. He & Susannah's daughter Sarah m my 3 x gt grandfather Francis Elliott who were well estab Gypsies. 2 of Susannah's
siblings also went on to marry Newberrys.
Thanks for your help
Vimira
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Hi Vimira
The Smiths that are in the Half Acre Row are my family, did any of your Mills marry any of them.
Phoebe Smith was was grandmother.
Chellin2
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Hi
I don't know, but I was trying to follow up an Ambrose Mills b 1862 in the 1881 census in Woodford essex, with a brother Galouse Mills, cousin? John Mills, aunt Fambridge Smith, & grandparents Moses & Fanny Smith (RG11/1733 fol 99 p44. Moses & Fanny are with a William Mills & family in Chipping Barnet in 1861 census RG9/788 fol 96 p69. And in 1891 RG12/1362 fol 76 p29 a Golie Smith (same age as Galouse Mills) appears as Moses & Fanny's son.
A birth cert I rec for the right name & age of Ambrose in Hitchin has his parents as John Mills & Selina Draper. So either Fanny was a Mills, or Moses was a Mills, or Selina Draper is d/o Fanny nee Draper?
Vimira
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Hi Vimira
I will look into this and if I find any of the Smiths married into your family I will let you know. I would appreciate it if you would do the same - thanks
Good Luck
Chellin2
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Hi
In 18901 Phoebe Cooper is with husband David & family, & her father Moses Mills. FG12/1475 fol 14 p22. I presume they are not in your family - I don't see them om your site. But again another marriage bet Mills & Coopers.
When was your Phoebe Smith born? Are you certain she was'nt a Mills?
Thanks for looking out for Mills/Smiths connections for me. I will let you know if I turn anything up
Vimira
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Sorry Chellin 2 - I meant Coopers Pup's site
Vimira
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Hi Vimira
My Phoebe was definitely a Smith and she was born in 1885, parents Josiah Smith and Lementamia Gardiner.
Thanks
Chellin2
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from a previous message:
"I don't know, but I was trying to follow up an Ambrose Mills b 1862 in the 1881 census in Woodford essex, with a brother Galouse Mills, cousin? John Mills, aunt Fambridge Smith"
I believe Fambridge Smith was one of the daughters of Ambrose Smith married Sanspirella Heron/Hearn. She married Sampson Robinson.
Ambrose Smith was the guy known as Jasper Petulengro (smith) in the George Borrow books. His wife Sanspirella was known as Pokomovna Hearn.
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again from a prev message
"He & Susannah's daughter Sarah m my 3 x gt grandfather Francis Elliott who were well estab Gypsies. 2 of Susannah's
siblings also went on to marry Newberrys."
I think there might be a relationship here. My 3xgt grandparents were Christopher Gray and Maria Smith, daughter of William Smith and Ann Elliott who was born in Willoughby Notts. Subsequent members of the Gray family married into the Newberry/Newborough family. All from Leic/Lincs/Notts area.
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We have been in contact before, which is why the names in my family are familiar to you.
I am still trying to trace Robert Mills, & am beg to think he may have been a Smith.
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aaah that makes sense :)
thanks