RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: macphail on Sunday 28 May 06 14:47 BST (UK)
-
I would be very grateful for a look-up for John Sampson born abt 1756 and died 1797 aged 41 (Holy Trinity The Less)
He married Hannah Bishop 1777 at St Vedast Foster Lane. He was a wine cooper and had 9 children -Elizabeth 1780, John 1782, George (1784-1847) Samuel 1786-1787) Hannah Eliz (1790-94), Anna Maria 1791, William Samuel (1792-94), Charles ( 1795-97) & Sarah 1797. All at Holy Trinity The Less
My current guess for John's parents is
John Sampson, born abt 1733 London,
Bur: 1791 St John The Baptist
Citizen(1777) & Cooper. Married Ann Prestage 1754 St Ann & St Agnes Aldersgate :-\
Many thanks to anyone who can help. :)
Peter Sampson
-
Sorry Peter, the last John Sampson mentioned was in 1683 :(
Kind Regards,
Frances :)
-
Oh well, onwards & backwards...... thanks for looking Frances :)
Best wishes
Peter
-
Have you checked apprenticeship records?
If John Sampson who you think may be the father was a citizen, he may have arranged for his son's apprenticeship. Have you checked the city freedom records at the LMA to find out where the father was apprenticed?
best,
Mike
-
Hi Mike, yes, the Freedom Indexes only contained the name, date (mmm yyyy) & occupation of the recipient. I didn't get as far as the apprentice records as time was limited. Burial registers also named only a few of his children, so maybe his widow and surviving children went elsewhere like George who went to Uttoxeter.
Many thanks
Peter
-
Hi Peter,
I'm getting a bit confused about the info you have given. Which John was a citizen in 1777, and where does the info come from?
Freedom of the City is usually at about 21+, so if John senior was free it would have been in about 1754. John junior would have been free in about 1777.
Either way, there is a very useful lead for you to follow. If a person was free of the city, it should be possible to find the name of his father (and often also occupation and parish) as well as the livery company he was apprenticed in. I'd be happy to elaborate...
best,
Mike
-
Hi Mike, I saw the Index of Freemen in the Guildhall Library and rechecked my dates which is 1778.The period I saw only gave the date, name and trade. I first assumed John Jnr was the Cooper in the indexes due to his marriage in 1777, then it was suggested it was an older John by a cousin who is also researching the line and it made sense. Is it usually the case then, that freedom is given at 21+ ?
June 1778 John Sampson Cooper
1770 Jas Sampson Ironmonger
Oct 1787 Thomas Samson Feltmaker
Jan 1790 Walter Sampson Cordwainer
Dec 1809 William Sampson Framework Knitter
May 1821 George Sampson Pattern maker
I didn't go much further back as I was only in London for the day, what leads can I follow next?
Regards, Peter Sampson
-
Hi, this can get confusing because there are two different sorts of freedom. At the risk of repeating what you already know, here's a quick guide:
Usually, parents hoping that their son might work in the City would apprentice him in one of the livery companies. This would ususally be at age 14-16.
Most of livery company records have been deposited at the Guildhall (though a few remain with the original companies). A list of the Guildhall's holdings is here:
http://www.history.ac.uk/gh/livlist.htm
An apprentice would be named in the apprentice binding book of the livery company. The info here varies, but can contain: the name and occupation of the apprentice's father, the father's parish, whether the father is deceased, the name of the apprentice's master.
An apprenticeship usually lasts 7 years, after which the apprentice can become free of the company. Most companies have separate books of freedom declarations. These do not usually contain any new information, other than to confirm the completion of the apprenticeship.
Once free of the company at 21+, it is possible to apply for freedom of the City. This is a distinct organisation, membership of which entitles you to various privileges that are useful for working in the City.
These records are held by the Corporation of London Record Office, which is currently based at the LMA. They have microfilm indexes of freedom admission papers. If someone is a member, you can usually find additional documentation -- most commonly, the original indenture form from when the apprentice was 14, with a signature of the apprentice or master, and details about the progress of the apprenticeship written on the back.
If a person is called a CITIZEN is usually means he was free of the City (in addition to being free of a company).
A few of things to bear in mind:
1. The is no very close relationship between a person's livery company and the trade they take up after about 1700. The fact that someone is a grocer does not mean that they were apprenticed in the grocers company -- they could equally have been in the haberdashers company. Having said this, the company associated with the trade should be the first one to check: for printers go to the stationers company, for colourmen go to the painter stainers, etc.
2. If someone is a citizen, you should be able to find their City freedom admission papers. These will probably also tell you their livery company. You can then go back to the company papers for more information.
3. Apprenticeship and citizenship would often carry on for a few generations. A citizen would want to extend the same educational and social benefits to his children.
An example from my own family:
Henry George Johnson (1696?-1762) apprenticed his third and fourth sons: Phineas (1738-1804) as a painter stainer in 1754
Thomas (1740-?) as a wheelwright in 1755
both subsequently became free of the City in 1761 and 1762. Their indenture forms are held by the LMA.
Phineas apprenticed his first two sons
Henry George (1773-1841) as a painter stainer in 1790
James Taylor (1775?-) as a stationer
best,
Mike
-
Thats great info Mike, thank you. This is where it gets confusing though because Samuel, son of John, citizen & cooper was apprenticed in 1776, another son Robert around the same time but I dont have the date to hand. Given the date of Samuels apprenticeship & Johns status as citizen there must be two John's in the indexes. John the cooper (St John the Baptist parish) wrote his will in 1779 leaving his estate to his wife Ann and heirs and was proved in 1791 from what I can make out. The only thing I can do then is have a few days in London & have a thorough search. Thanks for the link, I'll be able to prepare properly
Best wishes, Peter Sampson
-
John jnr was admitted to the Guild & got his City freedom in 1778, apprenticed to his father John in 1771.
The Coopers Guild A-Z list of Freemen 1723-1850 showed 2 John Sampson's - father & son, the older John admitted to the Guild in Jul 1752 & his London freedom the same year, his masters being Robert Monk & Robert Murden. The Coopers Hall minute books details his admission, payment and apprenticeship details. Masters Rob Monk, Wm Holmes, father Joseph, coachman, East Smithfields, 7 yrs
Another set of minute books details payments to the guild, masters name, abode & amount paid
Name - Master's name - Abode - Date - Payment
John Sampson - Wm Scullard - Goswell St - 1752/53
John Sampson - Robt Monk - St Thomas Apostle - 1757/58 - 0-8-4
John Sampson - Robt Monk - St Thomas Apostle- 1762/63 0-18-4
John Sampson - Robt Monk - Hoxton Middx - 1769/70 - 0-13-4
Poor rates from St Thomas Apostle confirm payments to John between 1754-1758 and baptism records confirm the addresses.
I was quite happy with all this but I couldn't understand why, if the apprenticeship ended in 1752, that the indenture date I had from online indexes started in 1743 and not 1745. On my next trip to the LMA, I got a copy of the indenture. John snr was apprenticed to Robert Monk in 1743 but his father was John, a citizen & clothworker of London (decd). On the reverse side says that John was turned over to Robert Murden in 1748 by his former master Robert Monk.
I'm at a loss to explain the conflicting info about the father. Am I dealing with two people here & there is a missing indenture, or is there another explanation. The only one I can think of is that as John the clothworker died in 1739, then Joseph must be a guardian or relative for John snr for administration purposes.
I've recently looked into the clothworker John, he was apprenticed to Thomas Fairchild (author of The City Gardner), Gardner, Citizen & Clothworker from Hoxton in 1715. Fairchild died in 1729 & bequeathed £5 'to his late servant John Sampson'. (London Freedom entry for John Sampson in 1733, Clothworker)
John Sampson's will of 1739 gives his occupation as Gardner of Hoxton, he names his four (surviving) children as John, Mary, Elizabeth & Thomas. Seven children were born at Hoxton between 1731-1738 except John, there is no baptism I can see (should be around 1729/30) and I've checked other areas.
As far as Joseph in East Smithfield goes, I looked into 2 familes but both raised more questions. One in St Botolph Aldgate had 3 children in East Smithfield , John baptised in 1737 would that be too young for an apprenticeship in 1743?
Another Joseph had a John baptised in 1724 in St Mary Whitechapel, born at Blue Anchor Yard just off Rosemary Lane. Joseph died 1738.
I'm hoping to get to London in May but thoughts from anyone would be appreciated.
Peter