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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: willowwah on Sunday 21 May 06 23:06 BST (UK)
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I was searching the national archives and type in Benjamin Ireland
and got the following;
To find out more about the archives described below, contact Gloucestershire Record Office
Bisley: Anglican Parish
Catalogue Ref. P47
Creator(s):
Church of England, Bisley Parish, Gloucestershire
OVERSEERS OF THE POOR
Miscellaneous overseers' records
FILE - Miscellaneous memoranda, documents and correspondence 1711-1830, undated - ref. P47 OV 7/4 - date: 1711-1830
[from Scope and Content] Including marriage extract of Thomas Davis and Ann Cook (West Dean, Wilts 1789); warrant for arrest of John Hazle as idle and disorderly 1811; papers concerning Thomas Holloway, a Chelsea out-pensioner 1803, 1813; papers concerning Zachariah Davis, a lunatic 1814-1816; statement by Benjamin Ireland about his marriage at Stroud when drunk 1814; letter from Cheltenham guardian for relief for a child 'almost naked' 1816; justice's order for relief of a pauper family 1817, and pass for a family removed from Staffordshire 1817; agreement for mortgage of a pauper's loom 1820; draft rules for workhouse master; letter about relief to a Bisley family in Holkham (Norfolk) 1821; marriage certificate (1802) of John Richins and Sarah Whiting 1830
I have a Benjamin Ireland who married Ann Perryn Aldridgeabt 1814 and wondered if anyone could look up this at the record office and see if there are any further details
This Benjamin is the furthest I can get back in my tree and any extra info would be appreciated
Denise
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From the IGI
Benjamin IRELAND married Ann Perrin ALDRIDGE at Painswick 30 Nov 1813 (submitted entry)
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Thanks Geoff
I have as far as the date of the wedding of Benjamin and Ann, but thats as far as I can get. I can't find his parents or even any siblings. He is my brickwall
I'm wondering if the statement about being drunk and wedding might just reveal something that could help unlock this
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I was intrigued by the story so popped into Gloucester to see the document - I'm glad I did!
Firstly, confirmation of the fact that the IGI should be treated with caution - the marriage took place at Stroud, not Painswick.
Stroud St Lawrence, 30 Nov 1813
Benjamin Ireland of this parish, batchelor to
Anne Perryn-Aldridge of this parish spinster
By Banns with consent of all parties
Conducted by John Williams MA Off Mins
+ Benjamin Ireland (his mark)
+ Anne Perryn-Aldridge (her mark)
In the presence of
Richd Smith
Stepn Howell
Now the document … a single sheet of paper with no indication to whom it was addressed.
September 5th 1814
Benjamin Ireland in my presence & in the hearing of Mr Thomas Shill and Jn Kean? disclosed he never consented to marry his present wife, then by an order of J ______ Esq he was fetched to Stroud from the prison at Horsley abt 3 weeks and 4 days before last Xmas by Richard Smith Constable, who took Ireland in to the Boat? Public House & then they drank a great deal of beer, then Smith said he was in a great hurry and must be in Stroud by 12 o’ clock. Smith did not hear Ireland but Ireland did not think he was at liberty to leave Smith there going along the road. At Woodchester the stage coach overtook them. Smith asked the Coachman to give them a lift which Coachman did and put them down with the other passengers at the George Inn at Stroud. Ireland paid the fare. Ireland then went into George Minotts a Public House. He was very drunk but remembers that Smith came to him and said he wanted Ireland to go with him, at this time no mention was made or had been made of marriage but Ireland quite drunk and insensibly followed Smith who took him to Stroud Church and there was (father?) in Church and he was married by Rev Jno Williams to his present wife. Ireland says it was against his Consent both then as well as at all other times to marry Mistress Aldridge.
Thos Shill
+ the mark of Benj Ireland
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Thank you so much for that...
Very intriging
must have consumated the marriage, if I am on the right track, there was John b abt 1817, Joseph abt 1818, Benjamin abt 1821, Caroline abt 1829, Emma abt 1838
shame that it doesnt give any family names as witnesses as I'm finding it impossible to find anyone prior to Benjamin senior
We think this is son John
1843 IRELAND John U Stroud Q/GC5/7 plasterer Gaol
Entry 9 -
John IRELAND -
aged 20 -
Brown hair, grey eyes, fair complexion, large scar on the left side of the nose, ?thin -
plasterer -
118 lb -
5 feet 9 1/2 inches -
Stroud -
(date of admission) 2 Aug 1843 -
Charged on the oath of Sophia ALDRIDGE with feloniously stealing at Stroud on 12 day of July eight sovereigns and thirteen shillings from the dwelling house of the said Sophia ALDRIDGE.
Committed by H BURGH Esq
Michaelmas Sessions Oct 17 1843
Not Guilty
Discharged 21 Oct 1843
(Conduct while in prison) Orderly
Thank you for taking time to help
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The 1841 census has
Leazes, Stroud
Ann IRELAND 50
Joseph 25 Plasterer
Benjamin 20 Lab
John 16 Lab
Caroline 12
Emma 3
suggesting there was more than one John perhaps? Presumably Ben died in Q1 1838 - there is no mention of him on the NBI2.
A William IRELAND was buried 30 May 1838 at Stroud age 17 - the IGI has him as a son of Ben and Ann (again a submitted entry though).
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hi thanks, yet again
I hadn't even heard of a William that was part of this family.
The reason i presumed that it was my John is that the person he stole from is Sophia Aldridge, Sophia was the mother of Ann Perryn Aldridge
I have a death cert for Benjamin IRELAND died 21st Feb 1838, Horsley, Male, in the age section there is a mark which could be a 1 or could just be a line , occupation is pauper, cause of death is decline, informant is the Master of the Workhouse, present at death.
so for now I've been unable to confirm a link.
btw what is NBI2 ?
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The reason i presumed that it was my John is that the person he stole from is Sophia Aldridge, Sophia was the mother of Ann Perryn Aldridge
I have a death cert for Benjamin IRELAND died 21st Feb 1838, Horsley, Male, in the age section there is a mark which could be a 1 or could just be a line , occupation is pauper, cause of death is decline, informant is the Master of the Workhouse, present at death.
btw what is NBI2 ?
I don't doubt that the thief was your John. I was remarking that the age in 1841 and the prison calendar both suggested he was born in the 1820s and not as you said in 1817.
In view of Ben's decline (and Ann's age), I wonder if Emma was actually a grandchild, daughter of an unknown daughter. Do you actually have any baptisms or are you having to work from censuses?
NBI2 is National Burial Index (2nd edition) - it doesn't have Horsley burials at all, and Stroud only from 1835-40.
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I don't know how much hassle it is for you to get to the Gloucester Record Office, Geoff, but I live 10 minutes away from Stroud Library, which has parish record microfiche for the parish church. If looking up relevant baptisms and burials there would help, I'm happy to do so! I don't want to butt in if there's no need however ;D
One thing does puzzle me though - how can Benjamin not know about the marriage thing if they'd been calling the banns for the previous 3 weeks? (unless he was drunk for the whole time of course.....)
Angela
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Angela
I would appreciate any help with the Stroud part of the family if you are able to help, I seem to be at a brickwall here
I'm in Lincolnshire
The family I've always known of were in the Forest of Dean which is where my own father was born and bred, now I am further back they are from Stroud, an area I know nothing of.
I did pass thru in earlier this year and tried to find Gaineys Well and failed but I know thats a place on a certificate.
I know Benjamin married Ann Perryn Aldridge 1813
My branch is from their son also called Benjamin born abt 1821
I have a death cert for a Benjamin IRELAND died 21st Feb 1838, Horsley, Male age unknown, pauper, cause of death is decline, informant is the Master of the Workhouse, present at death.
{ I can't confirm if this is my Benjamin }
I would appreciate any help to help me find out about Benjamin who married Ann and if possible help me find out who or where he came from
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Hi willowwah
I should be able to get to the library early next week, if not before. I think it might be helpful to check Benjamin and Ann's childrens' baptisms in case there's any occupation given for Benjamin. I'll also have a look at possible baptisms for him, although it looks likely to me that he could have come from Horsley and I don't have easy access to records from there :(
On the other hand, it could just be that Benjamin merely spent a lot of time in the House of Correction there (presumably that's where he was fetched from in the document Geoff looked up for you, although I can't find the reference in the Quarter Session summary).
If Benjamin had established residence in Stroud, I would have expected him to end up in the Workhouse there, so that's a bit of a puzzle.
I'll keep you posted as to what I find....
Best wishes
Angela
I've never heard of Gainey's Well - do you know roughly where it was?
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http://www2.newsquest.co.uk/stroud/features/FEATURES97.html
heres a map itsnear the Leazes
http://www.latoot.co.uk/gaineyswell.gif
I'll check the certificates when I get back home
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Fancy that - just shows I should read the local papers more carefully ::)
I've found it on my Ordnance Survey map now - may go for a walk later and have a look! How did it end up on a certificate? Were your ancestors actually living there?
Angela
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I've rung home for the details
The certificate with the Gaineys Well entry is
When and Where born
28th Sept 1850
Gaineys Well Stroud
Name
Emily Jane
Sex
Girl
Name of Father
John Ireland
Name of mother
Jane Ireland formerly Bennnett
Occupation of Father
Labourer
Signature of informant
X the Mark of Jane Ireland, Mother, Gaineys Well, Stroud
Date of registration
14th Oct 1850
Signature of Registrar
looks like John Selby Howell? Registrar
John was Benjamins son
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What an amazing place to be born! I'll check the whereabouts with my neighbours and have a look.....
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Hi there willowwah
I've been to the library today and had a look round for your Ireland family. Unfortunately, I got turfed out at closing time before I'd found all I wanted, but this is what I've got so far -
Baptisms at St Lawrence Church Stroud -
24 July 1814 - Mary dau of Benjamin & Anne Ireland - residence, Silver Street Stroud - occupation Sawyer
16 Feb 1817 - Joseph son of Benjamin & Anne Ireland - residence, Stroud's Hill - occupation Sawyer
24 Jan 1819 - Benjamin son of Benjamin & Anne Ireland - residence, Stroud's Hill- occupation Sawyer
23 Aug 1824 - John illegitimate son of Ann Ireland - child born in the parish of Bisley - Widow
So it looks like the death you found for a Benjamin isn't the right one - he must have died over 9 months before John's birth (presumably....)
I had a look for the burial record for Benjamin and was very frustrated to find a gap in the records between 1812 and 1840. I presume that they're in the main record office but it's a bit puzzling to find a gap in the local records like that ::) If we could find a burial record, it might give an age and we'd have more of a chance of finding a baptism for Benjamin. Unfortunately I ran out of time to check (it's a big parish....)
It might be interesting to note that there were no other Irelands having babies baptised at that period. The first other ones to appear were Joseph and Rosanna who had a baby Mary Ann baptised on Jun 14 1829 (bit early to be Joseph son of Benjamin!)
I checked between 1826 and 1830 for Caroline and didn't find her but then the librarians were hovering! I'll check again, and also for Emma, when I next go if no-one finds anything first.
Hope this helps a bit
Best wishes
Angela
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Re Gainey's Well
It doesn't appear on the 1887 OS Map ... by that time it was the site of the Water Works.
www.oldmaps.co.uk
Search for Stroud
Click on the Right arrow 3 times
Click on "Enlarged View" below the map.
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Angela
thank you so much for this !
The Mary I'd never heard of .. so thats one to add
Goeff E had the entry below
A William IRELAND was buried 30 May 1838 at Stroud age 17 - the IGI has him as a son of Ben and Ann (again a submitted entry though).
did you see any sign of him? as I'd never heard of a William before either.
Interesting to see that John wasn't actually an Ireland through birth, as for Caroline and Emma the plot thickens.
Angela can you think of any ideas of how I find information on Benjamin, any other avenues I can persue.?
We decend from Benjamin's son Benjamin, thanks for the look ups on baptisms it alters a few dates,
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Hi willowwah
I think we can be quite encouraged about Benjamin as we're narrowing things down. I'm quite cross about there being a gap in the burial records for Stroud St Lawrence as finding Benjamin's burial would be a great pointer to finding his birth! If he was baptised in Stroud after about 1775 (and unless he married relatively late there's a good chance!) then the baptism records should not only show his father and mother but also his mother's father. Stroud records are very unusual in that respect ;D
What I would suggest is making a specific post asking for a lookup for Benjamin's burial between say 1818 and 1825 to be on the safe side, at either Stroud St Lawrence or Bisley ( since John was born there, they might have been living there before) if we can get an approximate age off that, then I'm happy to look for Benjamin's baptism at the library next week.
About William - I didn't see any sign of him at all, but I'll recheck when I go back to the library - also to have another look for Caroline and Emma. I noticed that Caroline appears in the 1851 census, but not Emma or Ann, and there are a lot of Ann Ireland deaths on the GRO index between 1841 and 1851 that could be her - also a couple of Emmas. I'll check burials for them as the library does have the later ones.
If you get any success on Benjamin's burial, let me know and I'll go back to the library!
Best wishes
Angela
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after a long delay
my fathers health deteriated and i took as much time as I could to support him and keep him living at home, sadly he passed away recently.
He thoroughly enjoyed my researching the family tree.
anyway now i am back, I'm still searching for Benjamin senior
in the IGI I have found
Event(s):
Benjamin Ireland
Birth: About 1788 Of, Stroud, Gloucester, England
Burial: 20 FEB 1820 Stroud, Gloucester, England
Spouse: Mrs. Ann Ireland
this could be my Benjamin !
also this was there
Event(s):
Benjamin Ireland
Birth: 1786
Christening: 9 Apr 1786
Bisley, , Gloucestershire, England
Parents:
Father: Samuel IRELAND (AFN: 2032-8C9)
Mother: Hester ARUNDELL (AFN: 2032-8B3)
also Arranroots found this entry for me a while ago
1811 IRELAND Benjamin C P47 OV/5/4/2/26 sawyer overseers
Bastardy Order
Sarah LAWRENCE delivered of a female bastard child on 27 Nov and Benjamin IRELAND sawyer adjudged father
also
Hester IRELAND delivered of a female bastard child on 15 January and William LAWRENCE of Bisley shopkeeper adjudged father
(Interesting coincidence of names! Both these records refer to births in Bisley or vicinity)
kind regards, Arranroots
Am I just grasping at straws.... or would anyone else think I might have broke through my brickwall?
could the Benjamin whos birth and death is listed above be my Benjamin? and is it most likely that he also had an illegitimate child, and I am also thinking that as his mother is called Hester there is a fair chance he would also have a sister called Hester
peoples thoughts on the above would be appreciated...and any views on how i can confirm these liinks
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Hi Willowwah
Welcome back! I'm really sorry about your father :( It was great you were able to be there for him though.....
I think you may well have got through your brick wall. We know that Benjamin and Ann lived in Stroud, so that would fit the burial very nicely. since we also know (I think?) that there was a Bisley connection in Benjamin's early life, that would match a treat too.
However, looking at the IGI these entries are all 'submitted' ones, so definitely need checking. I'm going to Gloucester Record Office today, so if I've got time I'll check them for you.
Best wishes
Angela
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Thanks
any help is very much appreciated, i have been going through the IGI cross referencing people and may have moved on further. when i was last in the Glos R O I did look through Bisley baptisms briefly, and after cross referencing again some of these confirm a few findings
if i am on the right track, Benjamin's father was indeed Samuel and mother was Hester Arundel
Children of SAMUEL IRELAND and HESTER ARUNDEL are:
i. SAMUEL ARUNDEL, b. Abt. 1777, Bisley. cant confirm this one till i visit the record office
ii. JOHN ARUNDEL, b. Abt. 1778, Bisley.
or this one
iii. MARY IRELAND, b. Abt. 1779, Bisley.
iv. ANN IRELAND, b. Abt. 1781, Bisley.
v. JOSEPH IRELAND, b. Abt. 1784, Bisley.
vi. BENJAMIN IRELAND, b. Abt. 1786, Bisley; d. Bet. 1819 - 1824. my boy !!
vii. ROBERT ARUNDEL IRELAND, b. Abt. 1788, Bisley.
viii. HESTER IRELAND, b. Abt. 1795, Bisley.
ix. WILLIAM IRELAND, b. Abt. 1795, Bisley.
x. JOHN IRELAND, b. Abt. 1798, Bisley.
xi. ELIZA IRELAND, b. Abt. 1800, Bisley.
xii. JANE IRELAND, b. Abt. 1778, Bisley.
if i am on the right track Samuels father is samuel again
Children of SAMUEL IRELAND
2. i. RICHARD IRELAND, b. Abt. 16 Nov 1749, Bisley.
ii. HARRY/HENRY? IRELAND, b. Abt. 15 Jan 1752, Bisley.
3. iii. SAMUEL IRELAND, b. Abt. 17 Feb 1758, Bisley.
there may even be more
I do hope I am pushing back correctly, I beleive that Samuel snr's father could be a Richard.
Oh how i wish i lived in Glos to have the time to sort this
Thanks again for all offers, i should be there on the 13th of Jan for 2 hours when they open then i am off to the forest for a Local history talk on living in the FoD 1900-1940 which is when my dad and his parents and there parents lived there
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just as an idea, how close in proximaty are the following places
Stroud, Strouds hill and Bisley........ ??
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Hi Willowah
Have just been to the record office and double checked some of the IGI entries. What I found from the Bisley parish records was -
Baptisms for children of Samuel Ireland (no wife mentioned in the baptisms for anybody , so the IGI has made an assumption here :( )
Jane 01 Mar 1778
Mary 07 Nov 1779
Ann 07 Oct 1781
Joseph 01 Feb 1784
Benjamin 09 Apr 1786
Robert Arundel 25 Dec 1788
Sarah 25 Apr 1791
William & Hester 25 Dec 1795
John 09 Apr 1798
Eliza 21 Sep 1800
Also confirmed Samuel Ireland and Hester Arundel's marriage 03 Nov 1777. Both parties signed with an X, although the witnesses (Samuel Harmer and Richard Baker) were literate. The second witness is almost certainly a churchwarden or something like that since he witnessed most marriages! The banns were read on Aug 31, Sep 7 and Sep 14.
Going through the baptisms, there were 3 other couples and one single person with the name Ireland having babies at that time. None of them had a Benjamin(!). They were Richard, Henry, Thomas and Anne. I found the marriage for Richard -
Richard Ireland - Betty Blainch married by licence 17 Sep 1775, witnesses James Pegler and Richard Baker. The groom was the only one to sign with an X.
I also double checked the burial of Benjamin Ireland at Sroud and it just gave the date 20 Feb 1820, his address of Strouds Hill (which matches with his childrens' baptism records) and his age of 32.
In answer to your question about distances, Bisley is 4 miles from Stroud and the road passes through what I presume would have been known as Stroud's Hill
Hope this helps
Best wishes
Angela
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Hi Angela
THANKyou so much!!
This is so good of you, some extra little bit i'd not quite got, this is saving me some time indeed
I have learnt not to trust IGI and use it as a guide to help me with dates to find the real info
can you confirm the Richard and Betty marriage is Bisley? the surname of the witness Pegler is also the name i beleive of Richard and Samuels mother Jane Peglar which confirms this marriage has to be their Richard
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Glad it was useful!
Yes, the Richard and Betty marriage was definitely Bisley. I'm really glad things seem to be coming together a bit better now. Like you, I find the IGI a really useful starting point but definitely NOT to be trusted without checking ::)
I've been doing some transcriptions for FreeReg, which should, in time, be a usefull alternative source of parish records to IGI. It all helps!
I don't know when I'm next going to the Record Office but I'll PM you before I go in case there are particular things I can check while I'm there
Best wishes
Angela
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Thank you I'd appreciate that PM ,sometimes you get the info and just need one name, one link to help you move on further, but are too far away to do it yourself, sadly i wish dad had lasted just a few more weeks to see how further back I have now got to.
Thank you for confirming the Richard at Bisley info
If ever you need anything from Lincolnshire let me know
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Thanks for the Lincolnshire offer - unfortunately Lincolnshire (and Gloucestershire!) are 2 counties whcih don't seem to contain any ancestors - at least so far ;D You never know though.....
It would have been nice for your Dad to have seen your progress, but then perhaps he can - who knows ::)
Talk again soon
Angela