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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: wen55 on Sunday 21 May 06 22:34 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am actually looking for an ELIZA SMITH of whom I have no details, apart from the fact that she was the mother of twin boys.
THOMAS MOSES SMITH BURBERRY 1st December 1856 Edmonton Middlesex London (my greatgrandfather)
ALBERT AUGUSTUS BURBERRY 1st December 1856 Edmonton Middlesex London
Sadly Albert died on the 13th December and his death was registered as Albert Smith.
I have no trace of ELIZA SMITH in any Census whatsoever, and THOMAS MOSES SMITH BURBERRY does not turn up until the 1891 Census living at 57 High Street Wandsworth.
I believe greatgreatgrandfather THOMAS BURBERRY was born in Ifield and possibly ended up in Hackney, London.
As I say it is actually ELIZA SMITH for whom I am looking.
All help greatly appreciated.
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Hi
If the deceased twin is registered as a Smith, is it reasonable to assume that the surviving twin was known as Thomas Smith which is how he appears on the 1891 census?
On the 1861 census, there are four Thomas Smiths born 1856 +/-5 in the Edmonton district. Three of those do not have a mother called Eliza and are born 1852, 1853 or 1860.. The fourth one, born 1857, is living with his grandparents:
1861 RG9/799/63/2
High Road, Enfield, Middlesex (Edmonton Registration Dist.)
Thomas Smith, head, 58, Ag Lab, b. Berkshire
Maria Smith, wife, 60, b. Essex
William Smith, grandson, 10, scholar, b. Enfield, Middlesex
Thomas Smith, grandson, 4, scholar, b. Enfield
Amelia Smith, grand dau, 2, b. Enfield
1851 HO107/1703/480/30
Turkey St, Enfield, Middlesex
Thomas Smith, head, 46, labourer, b. Ashbury, Berkshire
Maria Smith, wife, 50, b. Roydon, Essex
George Smith, son in law, mar, 28, labourer, b. Enfield, Middlesex
Sarah Smith, dau, mar, 22, b. Ashbury, Berkshire
Eliza Smith, dau, unmar, 15, b. Enfield
Maria Smith, dau, 13, b. Enfield
William Smith, son, 11, b. Enfield
Authen? Smith, son, 3, b. Enfield
Jerne? Smith, gran dau, 1 mth, b. Enfield
Of course, all this can only be regarded as the faintest possibility!!!
Cheers
Koromo
:)
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Hi
Have you got the birth certificates for the boys? That should make it clearer as to whether Eliza was married at the time. It seems odd thay they have reverted to Smith. If you can tell us the address and occupation of their father, Thomas Burberry, then someone might find him and Eliza in the census. Have you looked for a marriage? That will give her father's name and may confirm the census details Koromo has given you. What makes you think Thomas is from Ifield?
Andrea
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Hi Wen :)
Thanks for your PM. Amelia as a marriage witness sounds good, doesn't it?
In what district and year did Thomas get married? Let me check on how many Amelia Thomases there were just in case there were a lot of them and it's all a horrible coincidence?
:)
Koromo
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Hello again
Thomas Moses S Burberry married Elizabeth Grose
September 21st 1879
Parish of St Giles.
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Hello Sillgen and Koromo
The witness is "AMELIA SMITH" on the marriage certificate of son THOMAS MOSES SMITH BURBERRY.
Problem is that with the Burberry side of the matters I think that in the 1861 Census there is an "Amelia Burberry" living with Elizabeth Turner and John Turner in Sussex. Elizabeth Turner being the second married name of Elizabeth Burberry (nee Smith) who married James Burberry and Thomas Smith Burberry (father of the twins) was the son of Elizabeth Burberry and James Burberry.
On the Middlesex board there are some Census results have been posted re my query on Eliza Smith.
Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi again
Another problem is that the twins were registered as Burberry in the 1856 4th Qtr.
Then when the death was registered at the same time for ALBERT AUGUSTUS he was named as "SMITH" in the deaths for the same Qtr.
Hope this is of some help to you.
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Hi Wen
I am totally confused now! :D
Elizabeth Smith married James Burberry and had a son called
Thomas Smith Burberry. She later married John Turner.
Thomas Smith Burberry married an Eliza Smith (not to be confused with the above).
They had twins named Thomas Moses Smith Burberry/Smith and Albert Augustus Burberry/Smith
Thomas Moses Smith Burberry/Smith married Elizabeth Grose. One of the witnesses is Amelia Smith.[/list]
You say there is an Amelia Burberry is living with John and Elizabeth Turner in Sussex in 1861. Do you have the census reference number for that? Or, do you have the birth date/place for Elizabeth Smith/Burberry/Turner? There are 60 Elizabeth Turners (and no Amelia Burberrys) that I can see living in Sussex at that time which makes it difficult to try to trace Amelia Smith/Burberry.
:)
K.
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I am glad I am not the only one who thought this was getting a bit much for my tiny brain to cope with!
Andrea
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Thanks for the reply.
Will be in touch at a later stage to give you some details.
Wen
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Hi Koromo and Sillgen
Here are the results of the Census' that I have looked at!
1851 Elizabeth Turner No: HO107/1641 Folio 343 Pag 1
1851 Thomas Burberry - John Smith Cousin (just wondered if this Smith might have been any relation of the missing Eliza Smith whom I cannot find) HO107/1642 Folio 353 Page 6
1861 John Turner RG9/581 Folio 88 Page 1
1861 Elizabeth Burberry (nee Smith) RG9/586 Folio 96 Page 22
A family of "Smiths" from "Worth"? RG9/580
1871 Thomas Harding, Probably just a coincidence but this name was on the marriage certificate of:-
Thomas Moses Smith Burberry and Elizabeth Grose in September 1879 as a witness along with Amelia Smith RG10/1059 Folio 24 Page 7
1871 BURBERRY Hackney RG10/329 Folio 81 Page 32
Other information I have is reference to the Will of James Burberry
Thomas Smith Burberry's father
No Prob 11/1885 Image Ref 28 Will No 7
Hope some of this information might be of use to you.
Wen
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Hi Wen
Can you give us the full census reference? You should have a folio number and page number on each one. So 1851 should read HO107 1641 Folio??? Page ??
We may be able to find them without but that would make it easier. You can change the post by going into it and clicking the modify button.
Thanks
Andrea
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Hi Wen
Starting from the beginning:
1841 HO107/1095/13/30/14
Ifield Street, Ifield, Sussex
Elizabeth Burberry, 35, inn keeper, yes
Thomas Burberry, 11, yes
Amelia Burberry, 6, yes
Walter Burberry, 2, yes
1851 HO107/1641/343/1
Worth, Sussex
John Turner, head, 38, farmer 15 acres, b. West Hoathly, Sussex
Elizabeth Turner, wife, 44, inn keeper, b. Ifield, Sussex
Amelia Burberry, dau, 16, b. Ifield, Sussex
Clara Burberry, dau, 5, b. Worth, Sussex
Francis Burberry, son, 4, b. Worth, Sussex
+ servant
1851 HO107/1642/353/5
Thomas Burberry is working as a shopman for Henry Carter (a grocer) and his family in Cowfold, Sussex. Also in the household is John Smith, the cousin of Henry Carter.
FreeBMD:
Amelia Burberry married John Turner
Sep qtr 1859, Cuckfield, Vol 2b Pg 171
1861 RG9/581/88/1
Upper Lodge Farm, Ardingley, Sussex
John Turner, head, mar, 40, farmer of 80 acres, b. Balcombe, Sussex
Amelia Turner, wife, mar, 26, b. Ifield, Sussex (transcribed as Cornelia)
Sarah Turner, dau, 11mths, b. Ardingley, Sussex
Richard Turner, brother, umar, 42, farm labourer, b. Balcombe, Sussex
Joseph Turner, brother, unmar, 36, farm labourer, b. Balcombe, Sussex
Same page, next door at Upper Lodge, Ardingley, Sussex
John Turner, head, mar, 48, retired farmer, b. Westhoathly, Sussex
Clara Burberry, dau, 16, b. Worth, Sussex
Frances Burberry, son, 14, shoemaker, b. Worth, Sussex
1861 RG9/586/96/22
16 North St, St John's Under the Castle, Lewes, Sussex
Walter Burberry, head, mar, 22, house painter, b. Ifield, Sussex
Mary Burberry, wife, mar, 22, b. Worth, Sussex
Maria Burberry, boarder, 6, scholar, b. Westhoathly, Sussex
Elizabeth Burberry, visitor, mar, 54, farmer's wife, b. Ifield, Sussex
So, can we now safely assume that Amelia Burberry was not the witness (under the name of Amelia Smith) on Thomas Moses Smith Burberry's marriage?
I think we come back to that faint possibility that Thomas Moses Smith Burberry/Smith might be the one that I found initially. However those three grandchildren (William, Thomas and Amelia) are not with their so-called grandparents in 1871.
1871 RG10/1338/81/59
Wilmoth? Cottage, Tottenham, Middlesex
George Smith, head, 50, groom, b. Ponders End, Middx
Sarah Smith, wife, 42, b. Ashbury, Berks
Thomas Smith, father, 65, dealer, b. Ashbury, Berks
Maria Smith, wife, 67, b. Roydan, Essex
Henry Williams, N Child, 12, scholar, b. London, Middx (nurse child?)
Henrietta Harris, N Child, 7, scholar, b. London, Middx
Frederick Burdon, lodger, unmar, 20, police constable, b. Piddletrelhide, Dorset
I'm afraid I cannot find William, Thomas or Amelia Smith in 1871/1881.
I guess that's as far as I can go.
Cheers
Koromo
:)
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Thank u Koromo and Sillgen for all your assistance.
Sorry it was all such a confusion. I probably am more confused myself now than I was before, but if I sit down and digest some of it I might be able to understand.
Wen55