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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: kevlin on Thursday 18 May 06 17:23 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information on the personal life of the British Boxing Champion Thomas Sayers b 1826 Pimlico area of Brighton and died 1856 St Pancras. I know all the info on his profession, but there is a lot of confusion on his private life. I know he was married and had a mistress (divorcee) at the same time and had children by both, but I cannot sort out who was who via the census as both women are listed as wife to Thomas.
Just leaving a message just in case there is someone else who has researched Thomas's muckie private life :)
Lin
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Lin,
Have you found his marriage registration? That would sort things out for you :)
jane
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It's ok - it's a bit complicated - yes I have - first thing you would do :) Thomas married a Sarah Henderson in 1853 but had two children before on 1850 and 1852. Then by 1861 he was living with a Charlotte and son Peter b 1848 - states Charlotte as wife - Then Thomas pops his clogs in 1865 - not surprising.
Lin
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You said Thomas had 2 children before his marriage to sarah, do you mean with sarah so they were registered in the name Henderson? Did you find sarah in 1861? just to make sure she hadn't died & Thomas legitimately married Charlotte. Also in what name was Peter registered?
jane
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In 1861 whilst Thomas was with Charlotte, Sarah was living with a James Aldridge plus their son James Aldridge b 1860 - Sarah married James in 1868. As for Charlotte, by 1871 she was living with a Willam Olrod and still living with him in 1881. The two illegitimate children where registered as Henderson, but Thomas was totally devoted to them. Children of Charlotte and James were illegtimate and took the name Aldridge-Sayers. Now Peter is a different story - He was illegitimate - seems to be the norm, but in 1851 he is listed as Peter Powell living with Charlotte and a John Sayers (John might have been mis transcribed. Anyway Peter's relation to head of household (Tom/John) was cousin ???? On reading some detailed stories on Tom Sayers the writer states that Tom had illegitimate children with Sarah Powell before he married her, but it definitely states Henderson on BMD so is there a third woman who had a Peter Powell or did the transcriber get Peters name wrong?
Are we now confused? This is why I am trying to find someone else who knows about Tom Sayers private life. Forgot to mention - Peter took the Sayers surname.
Lin
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Wow, what a tangled web we weave :) or at least Thomas did!
I did a Google search for Tom Sayers (as I'm sure you have) & greatly enjoyed these two sites
http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/tom_sayers_history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Sayers
I wondered, did he leave a will? There might be a few insights into his private life if there was one.
jane
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Hi Jane
Did not think about a will - I'll have a rummage in national archives - great thinking batman ;D
Must admit he seemed a bit of a ladies man.
Thanks for reading and the suggestion on the will.
ttfn
take care
Lin
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I had a look at the image of the 1851. It quite clearly says John Sayers. He is a bricklayer age 28 with wife Charlotte 26 and Peter age 3 - I did wonder if it actually said Powell but I think it could be. All born in Brighton.
Andrea
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I see that in 1861 Charlotte and Peter are born in Uckfield.
Andrea
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1851 census HO107 1497 folio 63
45 Bayham Street St Pancras Middlesex
Thomas Sayer 24 Brighton Head Married Journeyman Bricklayer
Sarah Sayer 18 Pancras, Middlesex, Wife Married
Sarah Sayer 10mths Pancras, Middlesex, Daughter
If Thomas died after 1858 any will he left will be at the Principal Registry at High Holborn.
Regards
Valda
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"Sayers met a 21-year-old divorcee, Sarah Powell, around 1842".
Almost impossible in 1842 for anyone to meet an English divorcee. Before the Divorce Act of 1857 divorce could only be obtained by an Act of Parliament and therefore was really out of the reach of all but the nobility or near nobility. It was not a quick process so also somewhat difficult for someone as young as Sarah to have already achieved. After the 1857 Act divorce was still very rare because it was so expensive.
The Times, Saturday, Feb 07, 1863
Police
Clerkenwell
Charlotte Sayers, aged 30, residing at 10, Bellevue-cottages, Camden Street, Camden-town, described as of no occupation was charged before Mr. D’Eyncourt with wilfully breaking 20 panes of glass, value 10s the property of Thomas Sayers, ex-champion of England and circus proprietor.
The defendant, who has been living with the compliant, said she had been badly used by him. She was covered with bruises where he had knocked her about, and her arms were black and blue from his ill-usage. He had repeatedly knocked her about.
The compliant said the defendant had been from home for two nights, and on her return had illused him. On Thursday, at about 12 o’clock, she went to his house and made a great disturbance. She then went outside and threw stones through the windows. She broke 20 panes, and the damage amounted to about 10s. He wanted the defendant to keep away and not molest him any more, as he was tired of it. She caused a large mob of persons to assemble round his house.
The defendant said that her husband left her eight years ago, and that the compliant and his children came to live with her and she looked after them. She complained that the complaint on Wednesday returned home under the influence of liquor, broke her furniture and threw it into the street and then kicked her out. He told her, after she had taken some of her goods to a little room she had engaged, that is she came on the following day she could have the rest, and when she went quietly for them he refused to give them to her. He had now got a watch and chain, some brooches, and other articles belonging to her in his possession.
Mr D’Eyncourt inquired if that was true, and said that if it was so the complaint had better give them up and avoid disputes of this kind.
The prosecutor said there was nothing of the sort in the house, but if there was anything belonging to her there she was at liberty to have it, and more if she required it, as he did not wish to have anything more to do with her.
Mr. D’Eyncourt (to the defendant). – Will you promise me to keep away from the complaint and not to annoy him? It is not because he has cohabited with you that you are to annoy him, although there is not much to say on either side.
The defendant said she would if the magistrate compelled him to give up her goods and also granted her a summons for assault. On one occasion he nearly killed her, and although he was then taken to the police-station, she would not attend and press the charge. She now had bruises on her arms and body from his violence.
Mr D’Eyncourt said there must be no “ifs” in the question. He then ordered her to be bound over in the sum of 10/- to keep the peace towards the complaint and others for six calendar months.
Regards
Valda
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Well done Valda! Fascinating stuff
Andrea
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Oh Valda, I am really grateful for your time ;D this is fanastic great reading. Sorry I have not replied earlier - you have put a name to "The divorcee"
Lin
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I wouldn't say I had put a name to the divorcee. That is just information taken from a Kung Fu Magazine
As a 19-year-old novice prize fighter he fell in love with an attractive 21 year old divorcee, named Sarah Powell. She would be the love and the bane of the rest of his life. In their second year together, she had their first child, Young Sarah. Young Tom was born 3 years later. Tommy loved his "little nippers" more than life itself and would do anything for the kids.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=473
It doesn't list its source for that information so I wouldn't hold a great deal of store by it. The point I was making using the quote, was essentially at least one piece of information in the sentence was highly likely to be incorrect - that Sarah was a divorcee. If that's wrong then I wouldn't hold out much hope the rest is correct.
As I can't find Sarah on the 1861 census does the information from that census confirm that it is the right family on the 1851 census? On the 1851 census Sarah was only 18 (and so if she was the mother of Peter born circa 1848 she would have given birth to him when she was about 15).
What information does Sarah give about her father on her marriage when she married as Sarah Henderson?
Could Peter Powell be the child of another relationship? Perhaps his mother was also called Sarah and the two women have been confused?
Regards
Valda
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In 1851 Thomas was with Sarah and the two children. In 1861 Thomas is with Charlotte. In 1865 Thomas had died and Sarah went on to marry James Aldridge and had issue and by 1871 Charlotte was living with a William Olrod - they never married. The Peter that shows as Peter Powell in 1851 but living with John Sayers ? and Charlotte it states that Peter was John's cousin. Peter dropped the Powell surname and used the surname Sayers drawing to the conclusion that this could be Toms son. It has been stated that Sarah was a Divorcee but have not found anything to back this story. Another tale I have read is that Sarah was a married woman and her husband left her to work abroad when Sarah meet Thomas in 1847. Sarah was sent news that her husband had died and I found the marriage of Thomas to a Sarah Henderson on the 8th March 1853 confirming that her children by Thomas - Sarah & Thomas were born with the surname Henderson, but like Peter they used the Sayers surname. I must say Thomas Sayers's life could not have been easy keeping his two families separate.
Lin
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So are you saying this 1851 census entry is incorrect?
'In 1851 Thomas was with Sarah and the two children.'
1851 census HO107 1497 folio 63
45 Bayham Street St Pancras Middlesex
Thomas Sayer 24 Brighton Head Married Journeyman Bricklayer
Sarah Sayer 18 Pancras, Middlesex, Wife Married
Sarah Sayer 10mths Pancras, Middlesex, Daughter
The Kungfu magazine says there was a three year gap between Thomas' daughter Sarah and his son Thomas. The 1861 census does not show either child with Thomas or with Sarah. Sarah's age and place of birth on the 1861 and 1871 censuses is compatible with the details of the 1851 census above.
1861 census RG 116 folio 146
10 Belle Vue Cottage St Pancras Middlesex
Thomas Sayers 35 Brighton, Sussex, Head Married PUGILIST Champion of England!!!
Charlotte Sayers 24 Uckfield, Sussex, Wife Married Housekeeper
Peter Sayers 12 Sussex, Son
There is a Thomas and Sarah Sayers aged 10 and 11, birthplace unknown, boarding in the equivalent of a 'Dame school' in Finchley on the 1861 census.
1861 census RG115 folio 45
1 York Street St Pancras Middlesex
James Aldrige 40 Pancras, Middlesex, Head Unmarried Cabdriver
Sarah Sayers 28 Pancras, Middlesex, Visitor Married Mangling
James A Sayers 1 Pancras, Middlesex, Son
1871 census RG10 249 folio 31
34 Peckwater Street St Pancras London
James Aldridge 50 London, Middlesex, Head Married Cabman
Sarah Aldridge 36 London, Middlesex, Wife Married
James A Sayers 11 London, Middlesex, Son
Alfred A Sayers 9 London, Middlesex, Son
Charles A Sayers 7 London, Middlesex, Son
Robert A Sayers 5 London, Middlesex, Son
Maria Bond abt 1804 London, Middlesex, Sister Widow
1871 census RG10 222 folio 39
5 Melton Street St Pancras London
Charlotte Sayers 42 Bristol, Sussex, Head Married Tobacconist
William Francis Olrod 45 Sanchall, Surrey, Lodger Piano forte maker
1881 census RG11 199 folio 28
5 Melton Street St Pancras London
Charlotte Sayers 53 Busted, Sussex, Head Widow Tobacconist
William Olrod 54 London, London, Middlesex, Boarder Widower Piano forte maker
Emily H. Sayers 9 London, Middlesex, Granddaughter
plus 1 boarder
Regards
Valda
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Yes your info confirms mine - ditto.
Thanks for taking an interest Valda - good to chat to someone on a confusing subject ;) and everyone else who popped in - many thanks
ttfn take care
Lin
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Hi there
Although I cannot give you much on Tom (I only researched him to remove him from my family Sayers tree) I can give you some of his ancestry and name other family members. They were as follows.
Yours Roy G
Line of TOM SAYERS
the BRIGHTON PUGELIST
Grandparents
JAMES & ELIZABETH of Storrington
Parents
William Sayers (b 1792) a shoemaker formerly of Storrington.
married Maria Hopkins of Tillington
at St Nicholas Church in Brighton on 30 Dec 1811
(Maria b c 1783 has also been recorded as Mary & Susan)
Address in 1851 on folio 601 of the census was 74 Pimlico. Brighton
The couple had 5 children including;
Charles b Spring St, Brighton 1817
M Elizabeth (Eliza) Ball Brighton 1835
Children
Eleanor b c1835
Maria b c1837 b 14 May 1837 not on 1851 census
Jane b c1841
John b c1843
Thomas b c1845
Charlotte b c1847
William b c1849
Family at 36 Bread Street in 1851 (folio 582)
James b Pimlico, Brighton 1824
Thomas The Boxer
b Pimlico Brighton May 1826, died November 1865
Tom's other uncles & aunts from Storrington not documented by me
Anna bapt 1790
Ann bapt Nov 1797
James bapt Mar 1799
Thomas bapt Dec 1801
Charles bapt Jan 1804 also a shoemaker formerly of Storrington.
Married Sarah of Brighton
Daughter Mary Ann b c1832 bapt 12 Feb 1832
Son James Hatcher b c1836
Living Orange Row, Brighton 1851 (folio 609)
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Reading all this I feel as though I have had 12 rounds in the ring myself. Fascinating stuff........
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Having recently had a book* published on Tom Sayers, I greatly regret that I have only just found this fascinating website. I haven't yet had time to digest everything that's here, but some admirable research has been done, especially by Kevlin, Valda and Roy G. (And Roy, it is you, isn't it? I'm trying to send you a copy of my book as promised, but my email has bounced.)
For my part, I have done my level best to sort out the details of Tom's miserable and tangled domestic life, ploughing through Census records and records of Births, Marriages and Deaths, and the results of my research are to be found in Chapters 3, 7 and 17 of my book.
It's all far too complex to relate in detail here, but I can confirm one or two things on this site, and rebut some others
Tom cohabited with, and later married, Sarah Henderson, not Sarah Powell. The name Powell, however, as Kevlin says, does make a mysterious appearance later in his story: I think the woman he lived with after his marriage broke up may have been named Powell, though she called herself Charlotte Sayers.
As for children, the Aldridge Sayers children were clearly not his, and my own opinion is that Tom had no offspring other than Tom and Sarah, both of whom were born to Tom senior and Sarah senior before they were actually married.
I follow the story through to 1868 (three years after Tom senior's death) when a court decided that his estate should go to the Aldridge Sayers children. In other words, there was a will, but his estranged wife saw to it that the estate went to her children by James Aldridge, not to those by Tom.
*The Lion and the Eagle (ISBN 978-1-899807-67-3) by Iain Manson, is published by SportsBooks in paperback at £14.99.
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to Iain08 Sent you a personal message separately Roy G
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Just stumbled across this and find it fascinating and maybe it has broken one of my brick walls. We have always been told we are descended from Tom and used to visit the grave in Highgate back in the 1970s before the place was cleared. On reading the 2 books on his life I have been confused by the quoting of Sarah Henderson and Sarah Powell as his wife. There were 2 Sarahs? I couldn't work out how my Great Grandmother could have been a grandaugher of Tom if Tom junior went to Australia and died childless? And his daughter Sarah's children wouldn't have had Sayers as their surname. My Grandmothers marriage certificate gives her name as Ada Phoebe Powell Sayers. Her Fathers name is Peter Sayers. Is this Peter an illigitemate son of Tom? We know that some of the family had some of Toms shirts (very broad shouldered) and photographs of him performing in a circus. It all seems to fit. Certainly has given me a new line of enquiry. This has been a a niggle for years!!!!!!!!!!
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Problem with research into Tom is that a few people have 'manipulated' their family histories to claim him as an ancestor, when they are in fact just decended from other Brighton Sayers. When trying to investigate his life story, you therefore have a difficult job of sorting out the truth from handed down wishfull thinking.
Furthermore, although Tom's boxing ability was exceptional, he had a number of failings. One highly unfortunate one for a strong man was that he was also proven to be a wife beater
Roy G
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Hi billyboy1
I was very interested to read your comments, I have been trying to trace my mothers family tree and like a lot of people have found the Sayers name very confusing. My grandad was Francis Peter Oxley and i believe his mother was Ida Phoebe Sayers married to Albert Henry Oxley, do you have the same info?
I would love to hear from you
Regards
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Hi, Albert Henry Oxley who lived in St Albans was my Great Grandfather. He died when I was about 16, so I can remember visiting him and have phots etc. Is there a way you can contact me of line?
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Hi again, sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but i have only just twigged! Would Francis be Uncle Frank from Archway?
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Just for the record, books that I have consulted over the years that might be of interest to those following this thread are: - The Great Prize Fight by Alan Lloyd (1977). My copy is now rather worn and was the first lead that got me searching. This introduces Sarah Powell ("two years older than himself") as the woman 'parted from her husband' that Tom took up with and had his first 2 children with. Back then, without the instant access to census etc from the comfort of our own homes, I suppose we should forgive him if he got it a bit wrong. Next is Tom Sayers: The Last Great Bare-knuckle Champion by Alan E. Wright - 1994. This refers to Sarah Henderson and has a lot more detail regarding Toms private life, associates and relatives. I have since reading this thread been onto Amazon and ordered The Lion & The Eagle by Iain as mentioned above and look forward to it's arrival! I also have a scan of the magazine 'Famous Fights' Police Budget Edition that was published in either the late 1890s or early 1900's and that has 12 pages on Toms life and dips into his relationships, although as expected of the time, in a quite coy and cryptic way. You have to try to 'read between the lines' although this has to be classed as gossip rather than fact I suppose. Anyway, I can now claim with some certainty that my Gx3 Grandfather was Peter Sayers who had something to do with Tom Sayers, maybe, but we are not quite sure what.
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Just a brief note for billyboy, whose contributions I've found most interesting.
As well as Lloyd and Wright, a very short book on Tom Sayers appeared in 1973. This is The Life of Tom Sayers by Tom Langley. Long out of print, but the British Library does have a copy, I think. It contains a lot of useful information, but as Langley doesn't quote his sources, I couldn't follow it up as I would have liked.
The identity of Peter Sayers really is a problem. I've discussed it with Roy (above), but it's very hard to get at the truth. It is in fact possible that Peter was Tom's illegitimate son, but I think it's odds against. It would need a DNA test to establish the truth.
At the risk of seeming to blow my own trumpet, I'd say to those interested in reading my book, that where I differ from Lloyd and Wright, it's safer to trust me. The reason is that I was able to use their research as a starting point, trying to verify where I could. Without them, my task would have been much harder.
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Iain, having now had the chance to dip into your book, from what I have read so far I can agree that it is a more reliable account than the previous works and the quotation of sources is a great benefit for those that want to research further. An excellent job, well done and thanks. I will contact you off line as I have a copy of an old photograph that you might find interesting.
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I'm 10 and this guy is my relative. My grandma had a family tree at some point but she lost it. So I'm definitely his relative. ;D
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I found this thread through a Google search. I'm researching the Sayers family of someone who was always told he was related to Tom Sayers.
His great grandfather was Charles Sayers b 1889 d 1950. His parents were Charles Sayers b 1866 and Elizabeth Wastell b 1868. I've found the family on the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census records living in Lambeth. Charles junior was born in Clapham (but later recorded as Lambeth), Charles senior was born in Brighton.
Charles marriage certificate from 1889 shows his father was William Sayers, a butcher. In 1891 Charles and Elizabeth are living with Charles' parents William and Harriet.
In 1881 Charles is living with his parents and siblings (including one named Betsy, born about 1870). However going back to 1871 Charles Sayers cannot be found. Finding William and Harriet's marriage record shows they got married in 1873. Harriet's maiden name was Mockett. Searching for a Charles Mockett in 1871 shows an unmarried Harriet Mockett living with four children, Kate, Chas M, Susan M and H Elizabeth (who is most likely Betsy mentioned above, the same age and born in Brighton).
Both records show Charles Sayers/Chas M Mockett as born in Brighton about 1866. Searching for birth records there is no record of a Charles Sayers born in Brighton around 1866. The closest is one born in Lewes, but I have confirmed that is a different family. I ordered a copy of Charles Mockett's birth certificate (middle name is down as Moor), and as expected there was no father named.
This makes sense, Charles was born in 1866 and William in 1850 - he'd have been about 16 when Charles was born. William's wife Harriet was around 10 years older than him. Is there a way I can prove Charles Moor Mockett and Charles Sayers are both the same person? It seems he took the Sayers surname, meaning he most likely isn't related to Tom Sayers at all.
Going further back William's marriage names his father as Charles, a shoemaker. In 1871 William appears to be living with a cousin John Sayers, working as a butchers assistant. I cannot find him on the 1861 census, but in 1851 there is a 1 year old William living with parents Charles, a cordwainer, and Eliza Sayers - the family in Roy G's post, Charles being Tom's brother.
I believe it's correct, but how can I be sure I have the correct William and Charles, and is there a way I can prove Charles was Tom's brother myself, what records are available? Not suggesting I don't trust Roy's information, but showing someone a post on a forum isn't the same as having seen the proof yourself. On Ancestry.co.uk I did find a tree that suggested the same, and even included William and his wife Harriet (though with Charles Mockett and Charles Sayers as separate people), though as Roy mentioned some people may 'manipulate' their trees to include someone not actually related.
Hope that makes sense, I'd really just like another opinion to make sure I've not missed something or made a mistake at some point.
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Hi there ScottH You write
In 1851 there is a 1 year old William living with parents Charles, a cordwainer, and Eliza Sayers (Charles being Tom's brother)
I believe it's correct, but how can I be sure I have the correct William and Charles, and is there a way I can prove Charles was Tom's brother myself, what records are available?
OK you need access to the 1851 census showing 36 Bread Street in 1851 (folio 582) to find Charles born 1817 and his family.
You also need the IGI, to find Charles' baptism, but a much better doccument is the original parish register (also transcribed onto Microfiche by SFHG) which not only gives the parents, it also gives the street that the family were living in and the father's occupation. It's that source that I suggest forges the link between Charles born Spring Street 1817 with Tom born in nearby Pimlico 1826.
Perhaps you might also find it useful to then find the Sayers parents and any children still with them on the 1841 census and use the above baptism transcript to check out their movements from street to street as Tom's or Charles' other suggested siblings were born.
I'm also happy to chat with you off line (topic now getting a bit unwieldy) So send me a PM with your e-mail address and we can then swap further notes. Roy G
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Just to point out that new members cannot use the pm system until they have three posts. On the whole we prefer to keep topics to the board so that future researchers can benefit too.
Regards
Andrea
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Hi there ScottH You write
In 1851 there is a 1 year old William living with parents Charles, a cordwainer, and Eliza Sayers (Charles being Tom's brother)
I believe it's correct, but how can I be sure I have the correct William and Charles, and is there a way I can prove Charles was Tom's brother myself, what records are available?
OK you need access to the 1851 census showing 36 Bread Street in 1851 (folio 582) to find Charles born 1817 and his family.
You also need the IGI, to find Charles' baptism, but a much better doccument is the original parish register (also transcribed onto Microfiche by SFHG) which not only gives the parents, it also gives the street that the family were living in and the father's occupation. It's that source that I suggest forges the link between Charles born Spring Street 1817 with Tom born in nearby Pimlico 1826.
Perhaps you might also find it useful to then find the Sayers parents and any children still with them on the 1841 census and use the above baptism transcript to check out their movements from street to street as Tom's or Charles' other suggested siblings were born.
I'm also happy to chat with you off line (topic now getting a bit unwieldy) So send me a PM with your e-mail address and we can then swap further notes. Roy G
Thanks for the quick reply Roy, the family I found were on 36 Bread Street, I just wanted to be certain that the William there is the correct one. With his father being listed as a cordwainer on the 1851 census and a shoemaker on William's marriage certifcate in 1873 it does seem to be correct.
I've found the baptism records on the IGI (assuming you do mean on www.familysearch.org ?).
I have had a look on the SFHG website, I'm not sure where on there I need to look. Are the transcriptions of the parish registers available online or do I need to order a CD? Where would I be able to view the original parish register document?
I have already looked for the family on the 1841 census. I found William, a 49 year old cordwainer living with Maria, 58 and Thomas, 15 (who actually looks like he's living with the family below, most likely a mistake). Not sure where the other children are though, I'll have a look. You mentioned James, do you know the names of the other two?
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Should have also mentioned when looking for Tom in 1851 he's living in Pancras, Middlesex, with Sarah, 18 and Sarah, 10 months, as others have found. However I also found a Thomas Sayers, 25, born in Brighton working as a shoemaker living at 13 Bread Street with wife Pamela and two children, just down the road from Charles and his family.
Is there another Thomas Sayers of a similar age from Brighton, or is it possible they are the same person?
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Re I have had a look on the SFHG website, I'm not sure where on there I need to look. Are the transcriptions of the parish registers available online or do I need to order a CD? Where would I be able to view the original parish register document?
Its not on the Internet, its something you have to purchase from SFHG publications called
"Brighton Baptisms 1813-1837. " My copy is on Microfiche but they have upgraded it to a CD and its now called Brighton Anglican Baptisms 1813-1837 and 1842-47 SXE86 CD-ROM
Roy G
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Hi ScottH - I have not read all of the replies to your orignal query - only just joined the site as a newbie - saw one comment 'did he have a will' - I can answer that - yes he did of which I have a copy because at one stage I thought I was related (my mother's maiden name was Sayers) - so did a bit of research and came across the will. Also have some old photo, newspaper photos. Could not find a connection between him and our family. Incidentally did you know that it was estimated that 10,000 people lined the route of his funeral.
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Hi,
I came across Tom Sayers, the great prizefighter, in "http://www.amazon.com/West-Chiltington-County-Sussex-village/dp/B0000CN311/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1388492907&sr=1-2" where it states that he used to live in my house in West Chiltington whilst training at the Swan Inn in Ashington down the road. I can't see a source for this in the book and it seems unlikely given that he seemed to shuttle between Brighton and London. Equally, it seems a little specific to be made up. Has anyone seen anything to support this on their travels through his past?
Best wishes, Tim
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I cannot say "That is Incorrect" but feel it highly unlikely.
Did whoever wrote it, give any idea when he is reputed to have been there?
The likelyhood of A Mr Thomas Sayers being there however is more probable.
Tom's parents and grandparents were from not too far away in Storrington, as is Henfield which was also overflowing with others with the Sayers surname.
Tom the bare knuckle boxer is on record as being baptised in Brighton in 1826 when the family lived in a Brighton slum called Pimlico. He then worked on the Brighton Viaduct not built until 1841 and only started boxing after that. So if he ever lived in West Chiltington or trained at the Swan, it had to be after 1841 when his boxing career took off. This is what I have on his ancestry.
I have it that Thomas Sayer the boxer's Grandparents were:
= JAMES SAYERS & ELIZABETH of Storrington
His Parents were:
= William Sayers (b 1792) a shoemaker formerly of Storrington who
married Maria Hopkins of Tillington at St Nicholas Brighton on 30 Dec 1811
(Maria b c 1783 has also been recorded as Mary & Susan)
Their address in 1851 on folio 601 of the census was 74 Pimlico. Brighton
William and Maria had 5 children, including the three brothers;
Charles born Spring St, Brighton 1817 (Married Elizabeth (aka Eliza) Ball, Brighton 1835)
(Charles' family were at 36 Bread Street in 1851 (folio 582))
James born Pimlico (a Brighton slum), Brighton 1824
Thomas born Pimlico Brighton May 1826, died November 1865
Thomas appears in Brighton with his parents on the 1841 index, but I have never checked where.
Thomas appears on 1851 census (HO107 1497 folio 63 for 45 Bayham Street St Pancras Middlesex)
The 1841 index also shows two Thomas Sayers born 1826. One is living in Brighton as expected, but there was another listed a little closer in the Shermanbury area of Sussex (Thomas Sayers of Cowfold). I wonder if whoever wrote the book has mistakenly thought the Shermanbury Tom Sayers to have been the boxer? Hence the dates that he is said to have resided there are important.
And no, I am not related, my Sayers are the other lot out of Robert Sayers, a Henfield bargee.
Roy G
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Dear Roy,
Many thanks for your comprehensive answer. I think we agree that it just doesn't feel "right". The full paragraph from the aforementioned book is as follows "House X, now House Y, was a butcher's, the only shop shown on the (estate of 1800) map. It was later the home of Tom Sayers, the great barefist boxer, who trained at the Swan Inn, Ashington. (details of famous fight..). It was not known how long the Sayers family were here; there was a farm called Sayers near Old House." I suspect as you say, the rather common Sussex name of Sayers has a link to the house, but the link to Tom Sayers the boxer is fanciful.
A quick google shows that a Mrs Charlotte Sayers was the landlady of the Swan Inn, Ashington from 1890-1899 which may explain more "Sayers" confusion.
http://pubshistory.com/SussexPubs/Pulborough/SwanInn.shtml
A couple of sources are listed at the start of the 1965 book I have from which the text mentioning Tom Sayers is quoted. Unfortunately they are unpublished, but I do have the village museum across the road from me, so I may do some final digging there before abandoning the link totally.
Thanks again, Tim
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Hi Again and a Happy New Year.
I think I may have found a possible link, but have to admit I have not researched it and it is rather tenuous.
Entries on the Curious Fox and another website suggest Tom's grand parents had a family tie to West Chiltington. They say James Sayers was born West Chiltington c 1767 and was married to Elizabeth Pennicot b Yapton 1762. Could that be a line of enquiry worth following up with the museum?
They also say James subsequently died 8 March 1806, but Elizabeth lived until she was 97 and eventually died in Brighton on 4 Dec 1859.
We differ on Tom's mother by the way. I have her as Maria nee Hopkins but the other website suggests she was Maria nee Thomas, but offers no suggested date or place of a marriage to Tom's father.
Roy G
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Roy G./Valda, et al:
Hello from the U.S. I'm a Sayers - originally from Harrisburg, PA, but now living near Washington, D.C. My grandfather, also Jim Sayers, had a lithograph in his living room titled "The International Contest between Heenan and Sayers".
Anyway, there was an old family story indicating that we were perhaps descendants of Tom. I think it's more likely that maybe we're descendants of Tom's brother/cousin. Would love to hear if you have any info about the American branch of the Sayers Family...starting in the mid-1850's and moving forward.
Also...a note on that. The family story I've heard repeated many times indicates that the Original Sayers in America married an Indian Woman (possibly a Cherokee). I see on the Dawes Commission Rolls (1896) that there is a William Thomas Sayers (43 years old, 1/16 Cherokee) and his two Children William Thomas Sayers (8 years old, 1/32 Cherokee) and Cora Ann Sayers (6 years old, 1/32 Cherokee). Is it coincidental that William Thomas is named after Tom Sayers the boxer and his father? If not, am I crazy to think there's a chance that William Thomas Sayers (the 43 yr old Cherokee man in 1896) might've been Tom Sayers' grandson? Considering the tangled Sayers family situation in the 1850's & 1860's, does anyone know if any of Tom's children left the UK for America?
Love to get your thoughts, and thank you to everyone for your insightful commentary.
Cheers,
Jim Sayers
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Hi Jim
This could be one of those cart before the horse things, for the first thing you really have to do is find when your first Sayers ancestor arrived in the USA and who he was. If you are lucky, you could find he came from Sussex. I may be forward in suggesting, a lot of Sayers did. Narrowing it down even further, where in Sussex. If you anticipate Tom to be a relation, albeit distant, coming from Brighton or central Sussex would be a step in the right direction.
Get onto the LDS website (familysearch.org) and look up all the documents they have for the USA. Social security records, census etc. Look for names you know you are related to and work back from there using earlier documents and censuses. We Rootschatters would certainly like to help you, but just knowing Grandad was a Jim Sayers without a spouse, birth year, birth place, or parents is not enough for us to go on.
By the way, the Cherokee Sayers line goes back through Abner Sayers (1781 - 1820) to his father David (1733 - 1819) so they significantly predate any connection with Boxing Tom.
Regards Roy G
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Many thanks Roy; useful information and much appreciated. Best, Jim
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Hello! I know this thread is quite old now, but I am currently working on the possibility that my husband's Sayers are linked to Tom Sayers, and wandering if anyone else out there is researching in this area still.
I think the James Sayers (West Chiltington c 1767) and Elizabeth Pennicot mentioned by Roy G were my husband's 6 x great grandparents, but my reasearch is a little thin on the ground between them and their possible grandson Morris Sayers who I am much more confident of - Morris Sayers (husband's 4x g grandfarther) was a brick layer (Born 1820, brighton) - living on Bread Street in the 1851 which was in Pimlico, but his first daughter was born in Camden town in the early 1840s - I think that Tom was also living there for a while and I wander if he was working with his cousin Tom at that time (TOTAL speculation of course!)
so not a direct line relative but would be nice to solidify a connection non the less.
I think I need to get Iain's book!
Also (as the name suggests) I am wandering, mainly out of interest if any of those who think they may be direct decendents of Tom have found any DNA matches to show this - my husband has DNA matches decended from Morris' sister but nil further back (which is probably abit hopefull given the genetic distance).
Or of course any Y chromsone testing would be interesting for those looking to see if they are decended (our link is through the maternal line but there are definatly male sayers about further up our tree, infact in my husband's great grandparents generation there were 9 sons! )
Thanks for reading!
Kate
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Hi. I am one of the last Sayers in the lineage of the boxer Tom Sayers. My name is Carly Alexandra. I have inherited documents and other family collectables including family portraits to prove my identity if in doubt!