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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: OzKat on Sunday 14 May 06 06:47 BST (UK)
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I have been spending a pleasant Sunday on ScotlandsPeople looking at the 1841 census but I can't seem to identify a couple of the places my folk seem to have spent time in.
At one stage my Rorie (Rorey) family were in the village of Belston, parish Methven. I can find Methven on a map but I can't seem to find anything on Belston? Any ideas or suggestions? ???
David Rorie, the head of the family says he came from Auchtergaven in some census records but in the 1871 he says he came from the following place - any help in deciphering this would be appreciated. I am presuming it is part of Auchtergaven parish.
Thanks, Kath :)
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Hi Kath,
I have located Coulterenny, which is probably the place spelled Coltranny in the census. If you go to old-maps.co.uk and enter Bankfoot, you will see Coulterenny at the top of the map. It appears to be a farm. Auchtergaven is described as a parish to the south of Dunkeld. Its chief settlement is the village of Bankfoot which also used to be known as Auchtergaven. Can't find Belston/Bilston (?) though, but will keep looking !
Isles.
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Hi again Kath,
Have now located Belston ! Enter Bankfoot as before, then using the left arrow click on it once, waiting for the new portion of the map to appear.
Do this four times in total and you should see Belston slightly to the left. Again, it seems to be a farm.
Isles.
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Isles
Just a tip from someone who got it wrong for a long time and clicked herself to oblivion on Old Maps site! At the top right of the map page on map section you are viewing you will find there are grid refs. which you can later use to find the spot you were at. At the home page of Old Maps on the left hand side, you have search options on the left. Simply click in 'co-ordinate' and then key in the two sets of 6 nos, icluding comma and it will take you to the exact section of the map you want. ......You still have to click away of course to find what you are looking for in many cases in the first place!
Regards.
Monica
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Thanks for that tip Monica. The grid references for the places are:
Bankfoot 306811,735421
Coulterenny 306811,735919
Belston 303982,735666
Isles.
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Thanks Isles for the work you did on my behalf and the coordinates made it very easy to find these locations. ;D
I can see what you mean about clicking yourself to death on "Old Maps", Monica. Excited by Isles finding these map references I then started to look for another of my missing farms near Kippen. 30mins on I am still clicking right and left to no avail and I am supposed to be working. Better wait till I get home tonight. :-[
Thanks again
Kath
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Should you be unsuccessful in finding that farm near Kippen, let me know its name and I'll have a go. The Yellow Pages for Dundee and Perth has the following in the farm section:
D.&A. Husband,
Belstane Farm,
PERTH
PH1 4BY
I couldn't find a mention of Coulterenny farm. Perhaps the owner/s chose not to be listed in Yellow Pages or the farm has been incorporated with another. Next time I visit Montrose Library I'll check the Ordnance Survey map of Perthshire.
Isles.
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I hope some of this will be helpful:
Belston Farm (sometimes spelled Belstane) can be found on streetmap.co.uk, by getting the map open at Bankfoot. Two roads lead west, the lower road goes to Belstane Farm. It is just past Farkhill and just before Balquharn.
This is the ancestral home of my husband's family, PATON. One son, Peter, emigrated in the early 1800's to Canada. I have a fairly complete record after his arrival in Canada, but haven't found anything in Scotland earlier than his birth in 1803 (Auchtergaven). His parents were Andrew and Anne, his brothers were James, 1794 Auchtergaven, Andrew 1800, Auchtergaven, John 1809, Auchtergaven.
I am sure there were sisters. I think I found James on the Scottish census with a wife, Catherine, on Prieston Road (alternately given as Auchtergaven and Bankfoot), but none of the others.
I wonder if your Rorie relatives might be connected to my Patons?
Cheers from Canada!
Holly
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Hi Holly.
It is extremely coincidental that I just thought I would go and meander around the Perth board and then your response pops up whilst I am there.
And yes ... I have managed to find Belston, Belstane, Bellstown since my last post. In fact I have now managed to find all my obscure and wonderful little Scottish hamlets that I have been after ... maybe one day I'll get to travel to Scotland to take a look.
Belston only appears to have had about six or seven dwellings. I have tracked the Donaldson family back several generations there and yes I have noticed Patons in my travels. I am pretty sure that there is at least one Paton/Donaldson marriage maybe more but I don't have the data on this computer - will have to go and check when my son and his friend gets off the other computer (school hols here in Sydney at the moment).
The Rorie connection is that David Rorie worked as a ploughman on the Donaldson farm in Belston and then married one of the daughters - Janet Donaldson. When Thomas Donaldson, his father in law died, the Rories appear to have moved off to farm in Stirlingshire after many generations in Auchtergaven parish.
There are quite a lot of Donaldsons at Belston so I am wondering if there were perhaps more than one Donaldson family there. Unfortunately Donaldson is such a common name - and they kept naming their sons William or Thomas or Andrew so its pretty hard to tell who's who.
Regards
Kath
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Hi Kath,
Good to hear from you. Timing is everything, they say.
If you should find any snippets of Paton info among your information, please post them - I am at a hard brick wall here and am at the point where I am taking random Paton info from the area amnd hoping it will fit something, somewhere, sometime. These people kept reusing first names as well.
Thanks!
Holly
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Hi,
I also have family - Donaldson, Paton, Rorie from this area - Also have some pictures of Belstane which can send you if you wish
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Hi Diana,
Do any of your Patons match up with any of mine?
Cheers,
Holly
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Hi Holly I am researching one John Paton or Patton born Belston 2 Feb 1804 ( ?) married 2 Dec 1850 Margaret Roberton...Belston, Perthshire, Scotland, I believe his father was John Paton c1777 - 1847 and Jean ? They came to Barrie, Ontario ... A lot of Margaret's sibblings were bapt at AUCHTERGAVEN,PERTH,SCOTLAND .... I am sure this family some how connects to yours... if you can please get in touch... I am in Ontario ...
thanks,
David
I hope some of this will be helpful:
Belston Farm (sometimes spelled Belstane) can be found on streetmap.co.uk, by getting the map open at Bankfoot. Two roads lead west, the lower road goes to Belstane Farm. It is just past Farkhill and just before Balquharn.
This is the ancestral home of my husband's family, PATON. One son, Peter, emigrated in the early 1800's to Canada. I have a fairly complete record after his arrival in Canada, but haven't found anything in Scotland earlier than his birth in 1803 (Auchtergaven). His parents were Andrew and Anne, his brothers were James, 1794 Auchtergaven, Andrew 1800, Auchtergaven, John 1809, Auchtergaven.
I am sure there were sisters. I think I found James on the Scottish census with a wife, Catherine, on Prieston Road (alternately given as Auchtergaven and Bankfoot), but none of the others.
I wonder if your Rorie relatives might be connected to my Patons?
Cheers from Canada!
Holly
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Hi David,
As luck would have it, I am just looking at your bunch right now (I've been working at them for the last day, taking time out only for sleep, because I seem to be having success and don't want to shut down my computer in case I lose some of my internet history) - and thought I would post a lookup request in here....and there you are!
Here's the connection -
Your John (1777) is brother to my Andrew (1778) (Peter's father)
Your James was still in Belston on the 1851 census. He and Margaret had another baby girl shortly after the census, old 'Jock O'Belston' died around the same time, and James with Margaret, the new baby, and the 4 little girls from his previous marriage all went to Canada, settling in Vespra. Before 1839, Andrew's son Peter emigrated to Canada, settling in New Lowell, where he became, amongst other things, the town postmaster. Your James built a mill for him - and you have probably heard the story, tried to screw him on the price. James didn't understand Cdn currency, but Margaret did. He went back to Peter, with his "Irish" up, got his money, and was SO mad, changed his name to PATTON, so no one would know he was related to Peter. Sorry about that. LOL.
Now, I am going to go out on a limb here....
Based on Scottish naming traditions of the time, I am going to guess that John and Andrew's father was either James (most likely) or William, and that their mother was Janet.
By the time you reply to this, I hope to have it sussed out.
I have been creeping through the dark corners of the IGI's and will shortly be posting a list of the Auchtergaven Patons births amd marriages. There are huge gaps in the births and marriages and no deaths. The LDS site is hard to navigate right now. They are switching formats and seem to have shut some parts down before the new one has caught up. So I can't tell if the gap is the fault of LDS or if there is actually missing info. I found out this morning that the Auchtergaven parish church wasan't built until 1813, so I have hope that there are more records somewhere.
BTW - We are related to the Johnstons (Minesing, I think). I know you have come across them on the genforum board. You are closer to them than I, as James who came to Canada is your common ancestor.
I am in BC, where it is finally summer.
potentially useful piece of info - on the 1841 census John and James were not in Belston, and I can't find them. That's the lookup request I am going to post. I know this because I found Belston, conveniently misspelled as Bellstown. Some other James Paton (age 57) was there with some family I don't yet recognize.
What else would you like to know? I might be able to help.
Cheers!
Holly
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Dear Holly , write me PLEASE a note at
davidarathoonstudio ( at sign here ) sympatico.ca
I can't stand airing the Patton dirty laundry in public ... LOL
I am in TO ....
yours,
David
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check your mail
;D
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checked and replied my dear HOLLY !!!
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Hi Ozkat,
There is only one Rorey in the Pre-1855 MI's for Auchtergaven.
60 - 1845 - Jas. Rorey in Carneyhill, 26.9.1842, age 70, wife Janet Maxwell, 11.12.1820, age 39, daughter Christina 24.1.1842, age 30.
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Thanks for these, Buckhind. Are they all death dates because if so, some other info I have for the women is incorrect. So it's good to know.
Kath
(Actually I have now sorted this - the dates fit nicely. Thanks.)
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Hi Holly, My husband David Pay's Paton ancestors also trace back to Andrew & Ann Paton. He is a descendant of their son Andrew, farmer of Balwhern or Balquarn who married 1836 Elspeth RobertsonAndrew & Elspet's children prededceased them & are buried in Auchtergaven Bankfoot cemetery. The youndest dghtr Ann married John Scott in 1868. Ann died age 36 & the children were raised by Andrew & Elspeth. One grandson John Scott married 1902 Margaret Merrilees & emigrated to New Zealand which is where we enter the picture. Did you know Andrew & Ann Patons wills are available on Scotlands people? Andrews is dated 1829 & Ann's 1835 which gves info on death dates. Very good to make this mutual connection. Cheers Lesley in NZ
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Hello, cousin Lesley!
I can't help but wonder what life was like back then - can't have been very good for them...you will have noticed from this thread that Patons were bailing out of Auchtergaven at a tremendous rate.
Have you any information on the line further back than Andrew and Ann? I am about to take another run at it. Save me some work, please! ;D
My daughter was in Scotland a couple of years back, and as her trip north was through the right area, I asked if she would pop into Bankfoot Cemetery and see if she could find any Paton gravestones. She later told me that it was an absolutely surreal experience. We live a 'modern' life, far away from most of our relations and this is all she knows. She found the experience of going into a cemetery where it seemed like every other person was a relation of hers, quite overwhelming. She did not have enough time or daylight to film all of the Paton markers. And there would also have been family buried in other cemeteries nearby. I hope to get up there, maybe next year.
I didn't know that Andrew and Ann's wills were on Scotland's People. I am an ancestry member and have been deluding myself for several years now that they are 'just about' to reach an agreement. Amazing. I'm only married to a Scot and have become cheap by association.
If you have any info on Andrew's ancestors, I would appreciate it, and if I have anything you need, you are welcome to it. I can't remember if it's covered in this thread, but I have 5 children that look like sibs to your Andrew:
Andrew & Ann PATON
James 29 Jul 1794
twins (?) Janet and William 11 Dec 1796
Andrew 12 Jan 1800
Peter 3 Jun 1803
John 9 Jul 1809
There is a record of a 'female' PATTON named Janet William , father Andrew PATTON in Auchtergaven. The timing is right, and I haven't been able to see the fiches for myself to confirm that it is a daughter or twins. I include it because the pronunciation of the surname is right as is the time and place. Who knows. At some point I will get over there and get into the records and bankrupt myself. :)
If I find anything else, I'll post it.
Cheers,
Holly
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Hello Holly, great to get your reply. It is swings & roundabouts with Ancestry & Scotlandspeople. Each has specialist areas. Ann Paton died 18th January 1835. Peter Paton her brother , tenant at Gibbieston was appointed sole executor but seems he had died by he date of the inventory in 1844.
Legacies went to sons James, William, Andrew, & Peter with the residue to son john. Perhaps Janet pre- deceased her mother . I do not have a birth record for Janet.I have not researched further back than Ann & Andrew Paton but will check for earlier docs or wills. Although the children of Andrew b 1800 & his wife Elspeth all predeceased their parents one granddaughter Anne Paton Scott lived at Balquarn until her marriage in 1902 to Peter Ewan, blacksmith of Auchtergarven. Leases on the farms were for 19 years & if the landlord had other plans for the land & the lease was not renewed the Patons became landless peasants. Andrew & Elspeth managed to make a reasonable living on their 40 acres & Elspeth left an estate valued at just under 4000 pounds sterling at the time of her death 12th Aug 1897.
I would be pleased to learn more about the Canadian Patons & how/when they emigrated.
Best Wishes, Lesley.
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I'm just catching up with this thread now. Delighted to find this information. I am descended from a Thomas Donaldson, born in Belston in about 1787. I've bookmarked and will be back when I have more info! Thanks~!