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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: FishMan on Friday 28 April 06 17:19 BST (UK)
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The photos attached are supposedly my great grandfather William Henry FISHER and his father-in-law James Lumber McCALLUM.
William Henry born 17 July 1859 achieved the rank of Lieutenant in The Kings (Liverpool Regiment) 23 May 1883. I am wholly unfamiliar with terms military - there is also reference to 1st Brigade / Batallion at 65 St Anne Street Liverpool. What might this mean? I don't believe he was a full-time soldier.
James Lumber born 7 June 1823 Woolwich Barracks, Kent served with the Royal Artillery in Malta in the 1850's and after returning to the UK had postings in West Greenock and Ardersier in Scotland before reaching the rank of Major, Coastal Brigade of Artillery 7 June 1878.
Is anyone able to confirm whether the pictured men's uniforms are consistent with their supposed ranks and service histories?
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Hi Fishman and welcome to RootsChat !!
I can't answer your question about uniforms - I'm afraid - but I did find this snippet .......
James L. McCALLUM Sergeant-Major Royal Artillery married 10th April 1856 to Matilda S. GARDINER from Dublin
http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/bam.htm
You may like to go through that site - it maybe of interest to you !!
Annie :) :) :)
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By any chance do you know the names of any of Matildas family ? - found a few Gardiners on this page !!
http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/bag.htm
Annie :)
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Do these McCallum's sound familiar ??
Elizabeth McCallum born on Cephalonia
Robert McCallum died on Cephalonia
http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/Ionian2.htm
Annie :)
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Annie (you are my heroine),
While nothing appears in this 2nd link that 100% confirms a relationship with my Matilda Somerville GARDINER, John Somerville GARDINER b. 5/11/1847 must almost certainly be related. His parents John GARDINER (42nd Regiment) and Phoebe (nee ALLEN) could also be linked in that Matilda's first child was named Phoebe. If this is the same John GARDINER who dies in 1849 it would be interesting to know if Matilda was considered one of his widow's 4 young children, she would be 10 or 11 by then. Perhaps this was why she married very young just 7 years later? Interestingly Phoebe (nee ALLEN) remarries also just a year after Matilda.
I now suspect Phoebe (nee ALLEN) and John (married 3/11/1832) to be Matilda's parents, but I cannot explain references to Matilda's birthplace as Dublin, Ireland. Perhaps they are her aunt & uncle and she is sent to live with them because of the potato famine in Ireland in the 1840's.
Matilda Somerville marries James Lumber MCCALLUM in April 1856 (15 year age difference), they return to Woolwich, Kent, England later that year and their first daughter Phoebe Annie MCCALLUM is born 29/6/1857. Matilda and James appear in the 1861 census of Scotland living at 63 Regent Street, West Greenock, Renfrewshire with 3 daughters Phoebe Annie, Matilda Evelyn and Mary Newton MCCALLUM. Matilda Somerville was aged 22 at this time and this would place her birth about 1838/39. She died only a year later in 1862 in Dover, Kent near to family.
Next step will be to check the service record of John GARDINER sergeant in 42nd Regiment based in Malta (1832-1849).
Thanks for all your help,
FishMan
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Hi Fish man !
In case you don't have enough to do ....... ::) heres the movements of the regiments ......... !!
http://website.lineone.net/~stephaniebidmead/regiments2.htm
Annie :) :) :)
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Wow!,A fantastic bit of detective work Annie!!
I've been scratching my head over this one for a while..... :P
I now know why I couldn't find James Lumber McCallum in the army list for the period that he was in Malta. He was a regular soldier that left the army and took a commision in the Coastal Brigade which was a militia unit.
It is usually possible to track on officer's career by consulting the army lists. They were produced yearly and list all officers serving in the army (the Militia only appear in the lists after 1867). They include information such as promotion dates and war services,they also list retired officers.I have quite a few of these lists, so I looked for James Lumber McCallum and he is mentioned in the 1876 (active list) and the 1885 on the retired officers list, his regiment is given as Coastal Brigade Artillery and it gives his promotion dates as;
Lieutenant - 1st April 1860
Captain - 19th January 1875
Major - 7th June 1878
In the 1876 it also states that he had served for 16 years on full pay,which would be consistent with his commision in 1860.
There are no war services listed for him,not surprising as Militia units only served at home! any war service he might have had whilst a non-commisioned officer won't be included.
It might be worth noting for future searches that his surnname in the Army list is written as M'callum.
Alas! for Lt Fisher,I could find no mention,no doubt he will be in the one of the army lists that I don't have! ::) ::)
The Kings (Liverpool Regiment) was the oldest regiment in the British Army and their HQ was indeed at 65 St Anne Street Liverpool.The 1st Battalion were regulars (as opposed to Militia).
Of the two photo's, the bottom one is definately the earliest,both men are pictured with swords which would indicate that they are officers as opposed to rank and file soldiers.
Hope this helps a bit,
Good luck with your search FishMan,
Mick ;)
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I found a book that's a published history - not sure where to buy it yet !! will look for it .......
Historical Records of the Kings Liverpool Regiment (1904) R. Cannon
History of the Regiment from 1685 to 1903. Contains biographies of officers with dates of commissions and promotions
Annie :) :)
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Next step will be to check the service record of John GARDINER sergeant in 42nd Regiment based in Malta (1832-1849).
There is a John Gardiner in the soldiers discharge papers in WO97 at the National Archives.He served in the 42nd regiment, and whilst no rank is given,it's quite possible that he was a sergeant as he served for 23 years! also he is the only John Gardiner listed that served in the 42nd.To give you an idea of the information that these documents can contain, have a read of this,scroll down to the heading 'Soldiers Discharged Through Chelsea Hospital'.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/BritMilRecs.html
National Archives;
http://tinyurl.com/osuh7
Mick :)
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I found a book that's a published history - not sure where to buy it yet !! will look for it .......
Historical Records of the Kings Liverpool Regiment (1904) R. Cannon
History of the Regiment from 1685 to 1903. Contains biographies of officers with dates of commissions and promotions
Annie :) :)
Are we on another mission Annie?? ;D ;D
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I don't think so Girlfriend !!
because ........ although you can get it through the library ........... or you can buy it for $400 :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ we don't really know if Fish and Chip's Great Grandad is even in there !!
Unless we can find it through Gugenheim .............. ::) ::) or UNLESS you feel like a trip to the regimental museum ??? ??? ??? ???
Mick ! - that HAS to be him - nice job ! he's from Midlothian too - wonder if the families knew each other before ?? that would be interesting wouldn't it ?
Annie :) :) :)
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Well let me know if I can help ...... *sigh* I'll be prepared for another marathon run around and typing session! ;D ;D ;D
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You're so good Mary ! :D :D :D :D - thank you for the offer !
"your bestest friend ! " ::) ::)
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"your bestest friend ! " ::) ::)
Awwww, isn't that nice!
There is a copy of the book 'Historical Records of the Kings Liverpool Regiment' at the Merseyside Maritime Museum,if anyone's passing! :P
They have some great reference books for Liverpool men who served in the Kings Regiment during the wars;
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/liverpoollife/collections/citysoldiers/research/kingsregimentsources.asp
No sign of FishMan yet, did he swim away?! ;D ;D
Mick ;)
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There is a copy of the book 'Historical Records of the Kings Liverpool Regiment' at the Merseyside Maritime Museum,if anyone's passing! :P
They have some great reference books for Liverpool men who served in the Kings Regiment during the wars;
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/liverpoollife/collections/citysoldiers/research/kingsregimentsources.asp
My fingers are hoping that it's not the WHOLE books you need ....... and that it is open sometime when I'm not at work .........
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Mick, Mary & Annie,
I'm truly in awe. I admit that tracing your own family history is probably the most "drug free" addictive hobby that exists, but the contribution you make to others is amazing. Thanks ever so much.
For anyone who may at some time have the opportunity to see this book I will post all the information I have to date on William Henry FISHER from The Kings Liverpool Regiment;
William Henry FISHER [born 17 July 1859 at 99 Mount Pleasant, Liverpool] (timber merchant)
Son of Henry FISHER (timber merchant) and Mary Ann FISHER (nee SYMES) (dressmaker)
1861/71/81 Censuses - living at 15 Rodney Street, Liverpool
23 May 1883 - Lieutenant The Kings Liverpool Regiment, 1st Brigade / Battalion
Harts Army List shows the regiment's address as 65 St. Anne Street Liverpool
23 April 1884 married Phoebe Annie MCCALLUM
12 May 1886 - part of the royal guard at opening of Liverpool Exhibition
1891 Census - living at 56 South Road, Great Crosby
Early 1890's - family moves from Lancashire to England's south-east
June Qtr 1898 - killed in accident when hit by tram/train in Rochford, Essex
Andrew
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Now a picture of 56 South Road, Crosby - or rather Waterloo as it's known as might be within my means, if I can just remember to do it, I'll expect to be passing sometime hopefully within the next couple of weeks. According to www.old-maps.co.uk it's now the Cafe Bar Esperanto.
If you don't know the area put this number into www.streetmap.co.uk 331950,398010 and check os grid. You'll see that it's not far from the Marina - one of those many places where Annie probably did a bit of courting! ;D (me too, but we won't go into that!).
Pity I didn't know about that last week, I had lunch in the "Royal Waterloo" pub/hotel and I bet your ancestor went in there too, it dates back to about 1815 and had its name changed to Royal Waterloo because of the Battle. They are trying to produce a booklet about its history, including any anecdotes and photographs which people might be able to donate and I'll get a copy when its available, don't know how long we're going to have to wait for it though.
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Annie,
A special thanks to you for putting me on the right track (see Reply #2) via Malta.
Just by chance today I found Matilda Gardiner, her parents and two sisters in the 1841 Census of Scotland. As it turns out Matilda's parents were Sergeant John Gardiner of the 42nd Regiment and Phoebe/Phebe Allen (see Reply #4). In 1841 the regiment was garrisoned in Stirling Castle, Stirling. The birthplaces of sisters Charlotte b. 1836 in Scotland, Anne b. 1840 in Ireland and John b. 1847 in Malta reflect the changes in the regiment's postings and support the fact that Phoebe/Phebe was widowed with 4 young children.
I now know father John was born in Scotland and mother Phoebe/Phebe was born in England and can continue the search via his military record (see Reply #8).
Again - many thanks,
FishMan
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Hi FishMan,
I stumbled upon this thread entirely by accident whilst googling to find where in Woolwich the Scots Church was located. I've no idea how old your post is (no year given).
I think it very likely the photo purporting to be of James Lumbar McCallum (JLM) is indeed him unless it was you who sent the image (attached) to Gordon Ruming probably around 20 years ago.
Gordon has since died and couldn't recall its source when we last discussed the topic. My picture is obviously from the same original source as yours.
I can give you my understanding of the background to my copy of the photograph if that helps.
Gordon had a printout of a McCallum family tree on Loughborough University headed notepaper. I'm guessing you sent him this? Sadly this has been lost but I do have a transcript of it.
I too am a JLM descendent but via the Fraser line.
Regards,
LindowMan
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Hi LindowMan and welcome to the forum.
Just for your information the earlier part of this thread is nearly 18 years old, and Fishman hasn't be active here since 2007 so don't hold your breath waiting for a reply! On the plus side, his profile says he's only 54 so hopefully he's still doing his family history and will get a notification via email of your posting.
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Hi LindowMan,
Great to hear from you. I had been in touch with Robert & Joan Moss in the early 2000's. Joan was Gordon's cousin and they sent me a copy of the Fraser Family History 1783-2003 in 2007 and I shared my information with them. That contained the same photo of JLM although cropped (suggesting they came from different prints). William Harold Fraser married Matilda Evelyn McCallum who was the sister of my great-grandmother Phoebe Annie McCallum. I don't know anything about the doc you have on Loughborough University stationery. Shoot me a private message and we'll take it from there.
Best wishes
FishMan (yes now 54, but longing to still be 38)
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Shoot me a private message and we'll take it from there.
Lindowman will need to make at least one more post before being able to use the PM facility.
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Hi FishMan and thank you so much for your speedy reply,
Apparently I'm not yet allowed to send PMs but I'm guessing you can send me one to which I could reply and would be extremely welcomed.
Margaret, my mother, was Gordon Ruming's only sibling and Joan Moss's cousin. Margaret sadly died in 2010 and passed on to me all the family photo albums, artifacts etc and attempted to identify all those featured.
Before Gordon sadly died in 2020 he encouraged me to copy Bob Moss's 'Fraser and Moss Family Book' which I'm guessing you are referring to. He also passed on to me the enthusiasm to understand my roots and I'm now in the process of creating my own web based 'FamilyBook' inspired by Bob's.
Gordon passed on many other titbits of family history which I have attempted to include in my version.
Happy to share and hear your discoveries of the last 18 years.
All the best,
LindowMan
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James Lumber born 7 June 1823 Woolwich Barracks, Kent served with the Royal Artillery in Malta in the 1850's and after returning to the UK had postings in West Greenock and Ardersier in Scotland before reaching the rank of Major, Coastal Brigade of Artillery 7 June 1878.
Is anyone able to confirm whether the pictured men's uniforms are consistent with their supposed ranks and service histories?
Although this was posted in 2006, I don't believe anyone answer the query about the uniforms?
Addressing the second photo:
The answer critically depends on when James retired - you don't say - and when the photo was taken. There is clearly a rank badge of a crown on his uniform collar What that means depends on the date.
From 1855 to 1880 the rank badge for a major was a star, with two rows of lace, while that for a lt. colonel was a crown. A lieutenant had a star, with one row of lace.
From April 1880 the crown became the rank badge of a major, while a lt. colonel became a crown plus star.
So, if taken before April 1880, the photo is of a lt. colonel, or lieutenant, depending on number of rows of lace (not clear). If taken after April, 1880, then shows James as a Major - most likely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia)
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The photos attached are supposedly my great grandfather William Henry FISHER and his father-in-law James Lumber McCALLUM.
William Henry born 17 July 1859 achieved the rank of Lieutenant in The Kings (Liverpool Regiment) 23 May 1883. I am wholly unfamiliar with terms military - there is also reference to 1st Brigade / Batallion at 65 St Anne Street Liverpool. What might this mean? I don't believe he was a full-time soldier.
Is anyone able to confirm whether the pictured men's uniforms are consistent with their supposed ranks and service histories?
Addressing the first photo:
If this is an officer affiliated with the King's Liverpool regiment then you are correct that he was not a full-time soldier. The officer shown - he is an officer - is not wearing the uniform of a regular soldier of that regiment. Instead, it appears to be the uniform of one of the "Rifle Volunteer Corps" battalions associated with the regiment, see details in following link, under "Rifle Volunteers"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Regiment_(Liverpool) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Regiment_(Liverpool))