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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Jumper on Thursday 27 April 06 18:21 BST (UK)
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Alice Maud Mary Wotton c 1863 married James Whitmore Dec 1881
cannot find her birth anywhere, have tried St Leonards churche in Shoreditch for baptism and all sited for Birth cert: visited FRC, no luck, would appreciate any info on London Wottons kind regards
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Hi Jumper,
Welcome to RootsChat :D :D
Have you identified her on census returns? Could she have been born under a different name?
Tanja :)
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According to the 1871 census she was born in Hackney :)
Welcome to RootsChat :) :) :) :) :)
Frederick Street Hackney
RG10/319/10/13
Henry Wotton head age 38 labourer born Shoreditch
Sarah wife age 33 born Hackney
Alice dau age 8 born Shoreditch
Charles son age 4 born Shoreditch
Arthur son age 2 born Shoreditch
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I have the 1871 census but cannot trace any birth certs: for the children, cannot trace a marriage cert: for the parents so I am not sure if that is the right Alice
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Do you have Alice's marriage cert to check her father's name?
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Hi
I've found alice wooton on the 1837 site
ALICE WOOTON Birth 2nd qtr 1863 Wantage 2c 289
I hope this help
TONY
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Thanks for info: does it give her father's name, according to marriage cert: he was Henry Wotton profession Cooper
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Do you have Alice's marriage cert to check her father's name?
According to marriage cert: her father's name is Henry Wotton profession Cooper
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Thanks to everyone for the messages, I have been looking for Alice for 3 years now, she was my father's mother, when she was young she was a "High button boot dancer" my father remembered being taken to wings to watch her dance 1899-1905 this was at the "Brittania Music Hall" in Hoxton, I have tried all the Music Hall sites, Hackney council site, I have no relatives to ask for info so appreciate any help, kind regards
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IF YOU GET THE BIRTH CERT IT WILL GIVE YOU THE FATHERS NAME AND THE MOTHERS MAIDEN NAME IF YOU GO ON TO www.1837online.com or it could be co.uk you can download the forms and it cost £8.50 for a cert
tony
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Thanks Tony, regards
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The family consistently give Shoreditch as the birth place of all of them not Wantage.
WANTAGE REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Registration County : Berkshire.
If Alice's names were Alice Maud Mary it seems strange that she would only have her birth registered as Alice. It wouldn't be surprising to find other Alice Wottons born around the same time as Alice Maud Mary.
1881 census RG11 391 folio 100
10 Moira Place St Leonards Shoreditch London
Henry Wotton 54 Shoreditch Head Married Cooper
Sarah Wotton 48 Shoreditch Wife Married Brush Drawer
Charles Wotton 15 Shoreditch Son
Arthur Wotton 13 Shoreditch Son
James Wotton 11 Shoreditch Son
Louisa Wotton 7 Shoreditch Daughter
Mary Wotton 4 Shoreditch Daughter
Regards
Valda
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:)Hello Valda, Thank you for your help, In the 1871 census Henry's age is 38, Sarah 33, 1881 census Henry is 54 difference 16 years, Sarah is 48, difference 15 years, I know in those days a lot of people were uneducated which would account for the discrepancy but I still do not know if this is the right Alice. On her marriage cert: and death cert: she is listed as Alice Maud Mary so she must have been registered with all 3 names. She had a daughter Alice Maud Mary who died as an infant. I have been on the Genes Reunited for 3 years and have not found any connections for Wotton, it seems strange that no one knows any Wottons, still I am sure something will turn up one day, kind regards
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They appear in 1861 too ................
1861
11 Arundel? Road, Islington
Henry (looks more like WOLTON) head mar 24 cooper b.Shoreditch
Sarah J? wife mar 23 brushmaker b.(not known)
Henry son 4 b.Islington
James son 2 b.Islington
Sarah dau 9m? b.Shoreditch
RG9/143 folio 24 page 42
Looking at the census entries as a whole (1861-1881), I wouldn't worry too much about the discrepancy in ages for the parents (unless, of course, William was married more than once - to two different Sarahs) - like yourself, I have seen similar discrepancies quite often.
I wonder if the Henry WOTTON marriage in the Hackney registration district (one of the four possible spouses being a Sarah Jane Munday) June quarter 1856 ref. 1b 374 is relevant ???
Doesn't help with the lack of birth registrations or baptisms but worth thinking about perhaps ???
Casalguidi
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Hi Jumper,
I'm doing this on Nessie's behalf, who can't insert links to other posts.
She found this family for gjil a few days ago:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,151181.0.html
Might be worth making contact with gjil :D
Tanja :)
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Thank You Tanja :) :) :) :) :) :)
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Thank you so much Casalguidi, I tried to find them in 1861, failed where you succeded, I have the marriage cert for Henry and Sarah Munday, 1856, I put it to one side as I thought it was not the right one,
On the marr: cert: he is a French polisher, in 1861 a cooper, in 1871 he is a labourer, in 1881 a cooper, am I reading to much in the different trades, I thought being a cooper was a recognised profession and that someone who was a cooper would not describe himself as a labourer ??? on the marr: cert: Sarah is described as "under age" would that be under 21 at that time? Thank you again, kind regards
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Hello Tanya, Thanks for message, am in tough with ggil, regards Jumper
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Hi Jumper
Yes, "under age" or "minor" on marriage would mean under 21. I'm not sure about the differing trades but they weren't too consistent with their ages so I wouldn't have thought it that unusal for somebody with a "trade" to be described as a labourer at times - particularly if they weren't a master employing others. Not sure about the French polishing though - maybe you could delve to see if there could be a link occupation wise :-\
Casalguidi
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Hello Casalguidi, Thanks for all your help, Can you tell me what to key in to find Henry Wotton in the 1891 census, kind regards Jumper
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1891 census RG12 255 folio 175
Shoreditch Workhouse Shoreditch London
Henry Wootton 64 Shoreditch, London, Pauper Widower Cooper
Henry and Sarah's children might still have their births registered in some other surname for various reasons. For instance their parents did not marry so the births were registered in their mother's surname. Or Henry was illegitimate so though he was known as Wootton (his father's name) and appearing on censuses as Wootton, all legal events were registered in his mother's maiden name. The latter I have examples of, but ususally when the person's parents marry after their birth (such illegiitmate children were not subsequently made legitimate by their parents later marriage until 1927). It is just unfortunate that FreeBMD has poor coverage for the year 1863 as Alice has a distinctive series of first names which it would be possible to search on alone to see whether there might be such a possible registration in another surname.
1901 census RG13 281 folio 173
Shoreditch Workhouse Shoreditch St Leonard London
Henry Wootton 74 City of London, Pauper Widower Cooper
Regards
Valda
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I must also thankyou all for the response on this post as I'm also a relative of Alice Maud Mary Wotton, she was my gggrandmother. Jumper and I have recently had contact for the first time. Her father was the brother of my ggrandmother, Rose Jane Engalnd nee Whitmore. Thanks to Rootschat that I have found a lot of information on the Whitmores.
gjil
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Hello Valda, Thank you for the info on 1891 census, I did find on Ancestry.com a birth registered in the name of ? Alice Maud Mary(question mark in place of surname) Sept 1862 Whitechapel. On rootsweb I found the entry on page 407 at the end of the listing for the surname "Guy". I took all details to the FRC, they checked the birth ledger, and then phoned Stockport and had them check the certificate. The surname is "Guyatt" it seems unusual that a person with the surname of Guyatt would give their daughter 3 common East End christian names, perhaps I should buy the cert:
A big thank you to everyone who has helped in my search, kind regards, Jumper
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The Guyatt birth certificate would only be worth it if you could track any of the other children
Henry circa 1857 Islington
James circa 1859 Islington
Sarah circa 1860 Shoreditch
Alice Maud Mary circa 1863 Shoreditch
Charles circa 1867 Shoreditch
Arthur circa 1869 Shoreditch
James circa 1871 Shoreditch
Louisa circa 1874 Shoreditch
Mary circa 1877 Shoreditch
having their births registered as Guyatt. Otherwise it is just a coincidence. FreeBMD produce coverage charts to show which years and which quarters they have better coverage of
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/progress.shtml
Ancestry's version of FreeBMD is never as up to date as the FreeBMD website so coverage is not so good.
I have tried to trace any of Alice's siblings after 1881 to try and establish their names.
1891 census RG12 250 folio 129
1a Flemming Terrace Shoreditch
Charles Wotten 24 Hoxton, London, Head Married Brush maker
Rebecca Wotten 20 Hoxton, London, Wife Married
Mary A Wotten 14 Hoxton, London, Sister Brush drawer
William Charles Wotton married Rebecca Clark in Bethnal Green in the December quarter of 1890 Volume 1c page 597
1901 census RG13 277 folio 148
43 Wilmer Gardens Shoreditch London
Charles W Wotton 37 Hoxton Head Married Brush? Finisher
Rebeca Wotton 32 Hoxton Wife Married
Eliza Wotton 9 Kingsland Daughter
Willm C Wotton 7 Hoxton Son
James E Wotton 5 Hoxton Son
Leatha? E Wotton 2 Hoxton Daughter
Henry A Wotton 10 Hoxton Son
1901 census RG13 277 folio 157
12 Wilmer Gardens Shoreditch London
James E Wotton 30 Haggerstone Head Married Brushmaker
Rose C Wotton 32 Islington Wife Married
James E Wotton 14 Son
I can't find a marriage of a James to a Rose and 'their' son looks a bit old for James senior's son. There is a marriage of an Edwin James Wotton in Shoreditch in 1903, but not to a Rose.
There is an Arthur Wotton a toothbrush maker lodging in Shoreditch (53 St John's Road) on the 1891 census aged 20 RG12 249 folio 59. I can't find him in 1901.
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
I must also thankyou for that info.
Alice wotton married James whitmore in 1881 and in the 1901 census they are living in wilmer gardens.
gjil
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Valda, I have been through all the birth registers at FRC for the years 1860 - 1880 looking at names Wattan Wetton Witton Wotton Wutton and all combinations with no luck, it is possible that they were not registered as it was not compulsory and there was no financial gain to be had, I have been to the LMA and checked through umpteen fiches for baptisms, have checked Freebmd and Familysearch without success.
I am sure you are on the right track with 1901 census Charles Wotton at 43 Wilmer Gardens. Alice and her husband James Whitmore were living at 34 Wilmer Gardens with their children including my father George Whitmore born 1894. James could also be right as the James Jnr could be Rose's son by a previous marriage. Thank you so much for your help and invaluable information, kind regards Jumper
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Jumper
Birth registration was compulsory but there were no financial penalities for not registering children until 1875.
I doubt any of the children were registered as Wotton/Wootton or any mispelling of the surname. For them to have been registered it would be in a completely different surname.
I have examples of families on censuses who appear in one surname - the surname they were known by in their everyday life but register their childrens births in another. The ususal reason for this was illegitimacy. Ususally the everyday surname eventually replaces the other surname.
However if you don't know what the other surname was you cannot find the families either in civil events or censuses. I searched high and low through censuses in Chesham Buckinghamshire till I finally worked out the family I was searching for in one surname were actually appearing in the censuses under a completely different surname.
This may of course not be the case with the Wotton family. However though their births may not have been registered, what about Henry's missing marriage (if it isn't the 1856 marriage) and most crucially perhaps, as many as three of Henry's and Sarah 's childrens' deaths seem to be unaccounted for (though FreeBMD does not have complete coverage for deaths 1861-1871).
Regards
Valda
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Valda, Thanks for info, sorry if I seem dim, what "missing marriage of Henry's " will try to trace deaths of children next time I am at FRC, kind regards Jumper
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What are the full details of the 1856 marriage. Have you used them to search for either Sarah Jane Munday or Henry Wotton on earlier censuses?
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
I have found the marriage of Henry Wotton and Sarah Jane Munday on ancestry. April, May, June 1856. v1b page 374, Hackney.
regards,
gjil
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Jumper has the marriage certificate itself which is why I asked for the full details from it, to try and confirm it was the correct marriage by confirming the details for both Sarah and Henry from earlier censuses.
Regards
Valda
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Valda, I am going to FRC next week to look up the census for
Henry and Sarah Munday 1841, 1851, if you or anyone needs anything looked up please post details and I will do my best, regards Jumper
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Gjil, have sent details in e-mail, regards Jumper
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Jumper that was what I was offering when I asked for details of the marriage - father's names etc. plus witnesses/addresses. I have easy internet access to the indexed censuses and the pages themselves.
The most likely candidate for Sarah Munday just going by age (born circa 1837) would be in Bethnal Green on the 1851 census with her maternal grandfather and mother Sarah. Her parents were John Munday and Sarah Young who married in Hackney in 1832. Going by the 1841 census John appears to have been a mariner but I don't think the family is right because the only baptism I can find is for a Sarah Ann (no Sarah Janes on the IGI).
The most obvious candidate for Henry is probably on the 1841 census in Shoreditch the son (relationships not given on the 1841 census) of John, a labourer, and his wife Sarah. A John Wotton married a Sarah Tyler in Hackney in 1825.
HENRY WOTTON
Birth: 31 DEC 1825
Christening: 26 JAN 1826 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father: JOHN WOTTON
Mother: SARAH
Without really knowing further information about the fathers of Henry and Sarah it is extremely difficult to search for likely candidates as obviously both these could be false trails as I don't know the names and occupations of the fathers from the 1856 marriage (and obviously you need to use these earlier censuses to try and help establish that the 1856 marriage is actually your Henry and Sarah).
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
on the marraiage certificate of Henry & Sarah, it says,
father, Thomas Wotton, , Potato Merchant
George Munday, Brick Maker.
regards,
gjil
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1851 census HO107 1542 folio 554
3 Nelson Street Bethnal Green Middlesex
Thomas Wotton 44 East Ham, Essex, Head Married Potatoes Warehouseman
Mary Wotton 43 East Ham, Essex, Wife Married Potatoes Warehouseman's wife
Henry Wotton 16 Shoreditch, Middlesex, Son Currier
George Wotton 12 St Georges East, Middlesex, Son Errand Boy
Robert Wotton 10 St Georges East, Middlesex, Son
William Wotton 7 Shoreditch, Middlesex, Son
Susannah Wotton 5 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, Daughter
IGI
HENRY WOOTTON
Birth: 24 DEC 1835
Christening: 17 JAN 1836 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch
Father: THOMAS WOOTTON
Mother: MARGARET
Regards
Valda
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1861 census RG9 250 folio 70
3 Boundey Street Bethnal Green Middlesex
Thomas Wootton 57 East Ham, Essex, Head Married Warehouseman
Margrett Wootton 55 East Ham, Essex, Wife Married Laundress
Robert Wootton 21 St Georges, Surrey, Son Cooper
Willian Wootton 18 Shorditch, London, Son Warehouseman
Susan Wootton 16 Bethnal Green Daughter Trimming? Maker
Living in the next household to Thomas on the 1851 census but at the same address
Joseph Wotton 24 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, Head Married Foreman at London Docks
Elizabeth Wotton 20 Shoreditch, Middlesex, Wife Married
Elizabeth Wotton 2 days Daughter Bethnal Green
From FreeBMD
Marriages Dec 1848
Beare Elizabeth Ann Bethnal G 2 56
Wotton Joseph Bethnal Gn 2 56
George Wotton appears at the same reference.
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
thankyou for all the look ups on the wottons, much appreciated.
regards,
gjil
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1841 census HO 107 655/13 Folio 16 Page 28
Hope Place St Mary Islington West Middlesex
George Munday 35 Middlesex Lab
Sarah Munday 30 Middlesex
Ann Munday 14 Middlesex
George Munday 12 Middlesex
Charles Munday 10 Middlese
John Munday 7 Middlesex
Sarah Munday 4 Middlesex
William Munday 2 Middlesex
William Munday 25 Middlesex
All claiming born Middlesex
1851 census HO107 1502 folio 345
8 Mildmay Place Islington Middlesex
George Munday 49 Hackney, Middlesex, Head Married Labourer day
Sarah Munday 44 N K Wife Married
John Munday 17 Hackney, Middlesex, Son Labourer day
Sarah Munday 13 Hackney, Middlesex, Daughter
James Munday 9 Hackney, Middlesex, Son
Edwin Munday 7 Hackney, Middlesex, Son
Emly Munday 1 Hackney, Middlesex, Daughter
William Munday 11 Bethnal Green Son
1861 census RG9 143 folio 11
8 Mildmay Place Islington Middlesex
George Munday 69 Hambleton, Buckinghamshire, Head Married Excavator
Sarah Munday 55 Hammersmith, Buckinghamshire, Wife Married
1871 census RG10 307 folio 82
8 Mildmay Place Islington London
Edwin Best 27 London, Head Married Clothier Cutter
Emily Best 22 Dalston, Middlesex, Wife Married
Henry Wootton 14 Dalston, Middlesex, Nephew
Next household - same address
George Munday 69 Prevesfold??, Buckinghamshire, Head Married Annuitant Paralytic
Sarah Munday 66 Hammersmith, Middlesex, Wife Married
From FreeBMD
Marriages Sep 1866
BEST Edwin Hackney 1b 640
MUNDAY Emily J Hackney 1b 640
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
thankyou once again for all that information.
regards,
gjil
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Valda, Sorry I misunderstood you, thank you for all the information, it is a great help, much appreciated, kind regards Jumper
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Thanks to everyone for all the help and information. Although I have not found any birth dates for Alice and her siblings, I have so much info from all the details that has been posted which I am going through, it can only be a matter of time. Thanks again, kind regards Jumper