RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Tony25 on Monday 24 April 06 17:17 BST (UK)
-
My grandfather Thomas Sydney Lloyd was born in Lytham Lancashire To Thomas Henry Lloyd and Kate Edna Spring in 1883. He emigrated to South Africa and married Elizabeth Human in 1907 in Roodeport. They had two sons ; my father Johannes Cornelius and his brother John William Henry. Elizabeth and the boys were shipped to the UK in 1913 but she died in 1914 in the Wesham workhouse having been abandoned by my grandfather. He subsequently remarried in East Africa and we believe he had two daughters and a son. One of the daughters may have been called Edna. The son may have died in London in about 1946.
Edna was working in Jinja in Uganda in 1946 at the Public Works Department. If anyone knows anything of this family I would much appreciate any information.
-
Hi Tony
Welcome to RootChat!
What sort of information are you looking for?
Are you hoping to find descendants of your grandfather's brothers and sisters?
Or do you simply want to trace your family roots back as far as possible?
For example, I see that your great-grandparents were married in the Spring of 1882 -
Marriage Registration
Thomas LLOYD
Kate Edna SPRING
June quarter 1882
Fylde, vol 8e p1027
Dave
-
I also note that Thomas senior was born in Worcester (not Lytham), that he was blind by 1901 (see below) and that Kate was born in Dover.
1901 Census - Lytham, Lancs
RG13/3966 folio 115 page 58
"28 West Cliff"
Thomas Lloyd, head, 46, tea agent, Worcester
Kate Lloyd, wife, 39, Dover Kent
Edna Lloyd, daur, 16, Lytham Lancs
Arthur Lloyd, son, 15, Lytham Lancs
Frederick Lloyd, 8, London
Robert Lloyd, 4, London
NB: Thomas Lloyd also recorded as "blind" in this Census
Birth Registration
Kate Edna SPRING
Sept quarter 1859
Dover, vol 2a page 701
-
Dave
Thanks for your interest. I have assembled a comprehensive family tree for most branches of my parents ancestors and for my wifes. I guess I have identified just over 10,000 directly related relatives going back to the 1650s.
Where I am stuck is in identifying the descendents of my grandfathers second marriage in East Africa. This is not an area where Ancestry or the other search engines can really help me and I guess I have to rely on websites like this or Genes Reunited. Clearly record keeping in Uganda is unlikely to be of much use. I have already tried the Freemasons and ex pat sites re Uganda without success.
My other great blank is my great grandfather, Thomas Henry Lloyd, Thomas Sydneys father. He is supposed to have been born in Worcester in 1852 / 1855 (as your 1901 census search revealed) but there is no credible record in Worcester or it's environs of a Thomas Lloyd with a father called Thomas Henry whose occupation was a coachman in the censuses or the BMD records. We suspect he may have made up his past as, according to my father, he never spoke about his childhood.
Any suggestions would be most welcome.
-
Hi Tony
Sorry, I can't help with finding descendants of your grandfather's second marriage - outside my sphere of expertise, I'm afraid.
Can't find your grandfather in the 1901 Census. Can't find him or his family in 1891 either. If Thomas Henry was a tea dealer, the family may have been out of the country at the time - possibly in East Africa? Arthur was born about 1885 in Lytham and Frederick about 1892 in London, so the age gap and different locations may be significant.
Thomas Henry ought to have been listed in contemporary trade directories, so it might be checking here:
http://historicaldirectories.org/
I'll have a root around and see if I can turn up something.
Cheers
Dave
-
Dave
Thanks
No I've never found the family on the 1891 census either. They were in London at the time but I've searched every combination I can without success. He was running a hackney carriage business. The profession of tea dealing was a rather grandiose term for breakong down a box of tea into retal portions. He was not a broker by any stretch of the imagination.
TH is hard to find on the 1881 census as well. He's down as Thomas Loyd (spelling mistake!). He's untraceable with any certainty in the 1861 and 1871 censuses.
I can't trace the birth of Robert or Fred in the BMD though I do havr a birth index reference for Walter in Kensington. that should give me an address if I was prepared to stump up £7 for the copy certificate!
The main issue, however is Thomas Henry's parentage and there I can make no progress at all.
-
Well, I suppose the obvious thing to do would be to order a copy of Thomas and Kate's marriage certificate - if nothing else, it should confirm his whereabouts in 1882 AND provide his father's name and occupation.
Dave
-
Dave
Thanks but I'd done that some time ago. He was in Lytham in 1882 (remember I have him on the 1881 census and you have already noted that the 1901 census shows the first three children as born in Lytham between 1883 and 1885). The marriage certificate shows his fathers name as Thomas Henry Lloyd and his occupation as Coachman. Needless to say his father is not a witness to the marriage.
I strongly suspect that he may have fabricated his background but I can't prove it.
Perhaps if I could selectively interrogate orphanages in the Worcester area it might throw up some possible leads. Who knows?
-
Sorry Tony - perhaps I'm being dense here, so I just need to make sure I've not missed something.
Your grandfather Thomas Sydney Lloyd was born 1883 and was the son of Thomas Henry Lloyd and Kate Spring who were married in 1882. Thomas Henry's father, according to the 1882 marriage certificate, was a coachman also called Thomas Henry Lloyd. Have I got this right?
Dave
-
Dave
Absolutely right. Question is where was Thomas Henry m 1882 actually born and who were his parents?
Regards
Tony
-
Here's a possibility - you've probably considered it already.
Was Thomas Henry illegitimate and invented a father for the sake of respectability?
Did he use the middle name "Henry" as an affectation?
He was recorded as age 29 in the 1881 Census, so is this him in earlier life ??
1871 Severn Stoke, Worcestershire
RG10/3057 folio 51 page 13
"Sandford"
Richard Lloyd, head, widower, 83, ag lab, Cradley Hereford
Thomas Lloyd, grandson, unmar, 19, ag lab, Severn Stoke Wor'shire
Mary Bubb, daur, mar, 44, Severn Stoke Wor'shire
Matilda Bubb, grandaur, unmar, 16, Pirton(?) Wor'shire
next door..
Richard Lloyd, head, mar, 26, ag laborer, Severn Stoke Wor'shire
Mary Ann Lloyd, wife, mar, 23, Badsey Wor'shire
Minnie Sue Lloyd, daur, 2, Severn Stoke Wor'shire
1861 Severn Stoke, Worcestershire
RG9/2099 folio 48 page 9
"Clifton"
Richard Lloyd, head, mar, 74, ag lab, Bosbury Herefordshire
Christiana Lloyd, wife, mar, 65, Sandford Worcestershire
Elizabeth Lloyd, daur, unm, 40, Sandford Worcestershire
Christiana Lloyd, granddaur, 16, Sandford Worcestershire
Thomas Lloyd, grandson, 10, Sandford Worcestershire
1851 Severn Stoke, Worcestershire
HO107/2043 folio 559 page 10
"Sandford"
Richard Lloyd, head, mar, 60, ag lab, Bosbury Worcester
Hannah Lloyd, wife, 57, mar, Severn Stoke Worcester*
Elizabeth Lloyd, daur, unm, 31(?), ag lab, Severn Stoke Worcester
Ann Lloyd, daur, unm, 21(?), servant, Severn Stoke Worcester
Richard Lloyd, grandson, 6, scholar, Severn Stoke Worcester
Hannah Lloyd, granddaur, 6, scholar, Severn Stoke Worcester
Thomas Lloyd, grandson, 10m, Severn Stoke Worcester
*Hannah = short for Christiana
1841 Severn Stoke, Worcestershire
HO107/1206/3 folio 6 page 4
"Upper Sandford"
Richard Lloyd, 50, ag lab
Christiana Lloyd, 45
John Lloyd, 20, ag lab
Elizabeth Lloyd, 20
Mary Lloyd, 15
All recorded as born in Worcestershire
AND ...
Thomas LLOYD
chr 04 June 1850 Severn Stoke, Worcester
Mother: Anne LLOYD
Father not named!
[IGI]
-
Dave
There is a significant possiblility that he may have been illegitimate. I will look at your suggestions in as much depth as I can. Significantly I can't readily find these Thomas Lloyds in the 1881 census in Worcestershire so I can't prove they are not my Thomas Henry.
Thankyou. I'm impressed by your ability to find an illegitimate Thomas Henry. Do you have a technique for searching or did you just look at a lot of records till you came across an uimarried mother?
I'll get back to you in a day or two.
Tony
-
Dave
If you Look up Thomas Loyd in the 1881 census he is shown as a 29 yr old agricultural labourer living n Severn Stoke with his wife Caroline and 4 children. I strongly suspect that this is the same Thomas Lloyd that you identified in the 1851,61 and 71 censuses and not my man who is shown as living in Lytham also as Thomas Loyd.
Tony
-
Hi Tony
Yes - I think you might be right.
Drat and double drat!
Ho hum, back to the drawing board. ::)
Dave
-
Hi,
Thomas Henry Lloyd worked at Fair Lawn, Lytham with my ggfather Francis Richard Wright!
It is very possible that they were life long friends.
Francis married Jane Carlisle in Dec 1881 at St. Cuthbert’s Church, Lytham.
Jane worked in Blackburn April 1881, by December she was in domestic service in Lytham – a stone’s throw from Kate Edna SPRING.
Francis & Jane had two sons born Lytham before they moved around 1890.
Francis b1883 – (as Thomas Sydney)
George b1886 – (as Arthur)
After Jane’s death Francis Snr returned to Lytham and spent the rest of his days there.
George also returned to Lytham.
Were these old pals/colleagues reunited?
However, I have an old photo, which I have always presumed was taken c 1881 at the stables, Fair Lawn – If so, it is very possible that Thomas Lloyd is one of the seven men in the photograph!
Perhaps you would like a copy once I have fathomed out how to send it?
Jennie B
:)
-
Jennie
Thank you so much for replying. Yes, Francis Wright was indeed a groom at Thomas Fildes house "Fairlawn" at the same time as my great grand father Thomas Henry Lloyd. I also append a photograph withan image of Thomas Henry, Kate Edna and the infant Thomas Sydney taken at Fairlawn House. Perhaps Francis is also on the photo?
If you should wish to communicate off line, my e mail address is tony.lloyd@dsl.pipex.com
Thomas Henry is a great mystery to me. He is supposed to have been born in Worcester but all of my searches have failed to find any convincing evidence of his birth in those parts.
Hoping to hear from you.
Tony Lloyd
-
Hi Tony
Thank You for your reply. What a wonderful photo, I wonder what the occasion was?
Do you have any more info? Who is the other child?
Not knowing anything about your photo I would have said that that your Kate was the Governess sat next to the Lady of the Household with her children either side. The female next to Thomas is facing him as though they have a connection and they appear slightly detached from the group.
I am not 100%, but the couple centre back could be my ggparents Jane Elizabeth Carlisle and Francis Richard Wright, if the photo is c.1885 they would be ages 29 and 30. I am judging their likeness by much later photos of the pair. Jane has very distinctive facial features and centre pointed hairline.
Thomas Henry is definitely in my photo, he is quite a handsome fellow with very distinctive features, no mistaking him!
I have been searching more old photos looking for an image of Thomas Henry, nothing as yet.
The photo I do have was taken by Isaac Wilde, Artist, Talbot Road, Blackpool and is approximately 2½ x 3½ in size. Unfortunately the only information I have regarding its content is that Francis is the chap on the far right.
Hopefully, I have attached my photo for your perusal; I look forward to any comments or information and perhaps this may throw up some new leads for either of us!
Kind Regards Jennie B :)
-
Jennie
Many thanks. I presume that you mean that the chap on the left in your photo is Thomas Henry. Regarding the couple at the back, my best guess is that the man at the back is the same as the man who is second left on your photo but is is just a guess. I could send you a higher resolution copy if I could e mail you directly.
You raise an interesting point about the identification of the characters in my photo. As it was my father that had identified his grandfather and grandmother, I must assume that he was probably right but when I visit him next I will try to double check this with him. He will be 95 in 6 days time! Kate by the way was a nurse not a governess
I doubt if he will be able to remember Francis but I will check that out as well.
I know little else about the photo and I date it by reference to the age of my grandfather Thomas Sydney b 18 Feb 1883. The photographer was T Bowen of 64 Clifton Street Lytham.
Kate was working elsewhere in 1881 at Westwood, the home of Thomas Fair, the agent for the Lytham Hall Estate.
Thomas and Kate had married on 24 April 1882 at St Cuthberts with the witnesses being Thomas and Elizabeth Bennett.
If you have a photo of Francis and Jane fom the 1920's / 30s it might jog my dad's memory.
I tried looking up Francis and George in the 1924 Lytham Directory but to no avail http://www.lytham-online.co.uk/Local%20History/Directories/1924%20Directory/Lytham_St.Annes_Directory_1924_W.htm
Best Regards
-
Hi Tony,
Thanks for your reply, wish your dad a Happy Birthday from me when you see him!
Sadly, my mum is no longer with us, I wish I had asked her more questions – and got her to write on the reverse of the photos!
I think a delve into the loft is required; I think there is some old Lytham papers somewhere. Mmmmm! ???
Francis Richard Snr left Clifton St, Lytham to work as a Coachman in Baxenden, near Accrington, Lancashire, his father - my elusive gggrandfather was a Richard Wright of Lytham, Sea Captain, lost at sea?? Perhaps your father/grandfather heard tales of Richard?
Francis Snr returned to Tennyson Ave, Lytham to live with his son George c1939, he passed away in October 1944 age 89. Francis Richard Jnr b 1833 m1912 lived in Accrington and worked as a Tyre Fitter.
Photo attached of Jane & Francis pos 1929 - Sorry don't know location.
Regards Jennie B :)
-
Jennie
Brilliant !
I'll show the picture to my dad ASAP and see if it rings any bells. Curiously his memory for events in his youth seems far better than his memory for recent events!
Regards
Tony
-
Jennie
I'm sorry. I should have mailed you earlier. I visited my parents for my dad's 95th birthday on Sept 30th. I showed him the photos that you sent me but there wasn't any instant recognition which was disappointing. I think that you may be right about the chap on the left being my great grandfather. How do you know where the photos were taken?
Do you know what happened to the Fildes family by any chance. They had disappeared off the map in 1891!
You dont happen to have any other records re Fairlawn from those times by any chance?
Best Regards
Tony Lloyd
-
Hello Tony
Thanks for getting back to me, I hope that your father is well and enjoyed his birthday.
My father was also born on the 30th September! He would have been 106 this year!
What a shame your dad didn’t shed more light on the photographs.
In answer to your questions – My mother told me, many years ago, that the old photo was at Lytham; as to the photo of Jane and Richard I am not at all sure of the location.
Very sorry but I don’t have any further information for you regarding Fair Lawn or what happened to Thomas Fildes and family. :(
I have Lytham photos but they are 1930’s onwards, mainly holiday snaps.
Lytham is a lovely place, I remember as a child picnicking on the greens, watching the cars go by and trying to name the make and model before my father. Now there are too many cars, too many models and they drive too fast – I’m showing my age!
I was hoping that by resurrecting this post - someone may have come up with new information for you regarding Thomas Henry Lloyd and his family. :(
Perhaps you should start a new thread for 1891 ???
Best wishes
Jennie
:)