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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: gjb on Monday 24 April 06 13:04 BST (UK)
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I'm look for a John Seago with a circus link (taken from a birth certificate for his daughter Amelia Ann Seago who was born in Norwich Sept 1891), he doesn't appear to show on the 1891 census, maybe he was on tour in another country during the time of the census.
I've checked www.thegalloper.com website and I cannot trace him on this site or any Seago's or Sago's connected with the circus in the late 19th century.
Anyone got any ideas? ???
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Hi gjb,
This might be Amelia on 1901 census with her aunt. (I assume you don't have this.)
RG13/1835
Folio: 7
Page: 5
2 Greenland Fisheries Yard,(or similar) Oak Street, Norwich
Henry W Randell head 29 yrs general labourer Felthorpe Norfolk
Maria Randell wife 27 yrs Poplar London
George Randell son 5 yrs Norwich
Lily Randell daur 4 yrs Norwich
Ellen Randell daur 3 yrs Norwich
Ethel Sego niece 7 yrs Norwich
Amelia Sego niece 10 yrs
Free BMD has a marriage 1896 1st quarter- Maria Seago and Henry William A Randell
best wishes
heywood
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Yes they are the ones I think our postings may have crossed while you were typing this one
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At the moment, Maria is possibly a servant in 1891 but that says born Norfolk -age is right though and is then at home in 1881- but no brother John!
There is a John in 1881 born Bermondsey with a mother Maria, born Suffolk!! Frustrating! He's a carman in 1891 - still in London - and in 1901.
NB
I hadn't posted this when we were crossing but have posted it now and realise it might be irrelevant- it's getting late!
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This John is elusive ???
he could well have been born in Ireland. I dont know!
I knew about the Randells but I didnt have full details of their address in 1901 and there household so thats been a help.
Maria Randell nee seago was at Bull Close- norwich in 1881 census.
thanks Graham
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This seems to be Ann in 1891
RG12/1518
Folio: 48
Page: 23
5 Dolphin Yard, Norwich
Ann Seago Head widow 42 yrs charwoman b Ireland
Ellen Seago daur 14 yrs errand girl b London
Amelia Barnes Lodger 24 yrs married wool sorter b London
George A Barnes son 13 months b Norwich
so George snr seems to be dead by 1891.
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Who is John's wife, and where is she in 1891?
Rambler
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Ann Sago and the family are in London in 1871, still no John:
RG 10/580 Folio 64 page 42
Poplar All Saints
29 Little James Street
George Sago, 38, labourer, b. Yarmouth Norfolk
Ann, wife, 23, b. Ireland Cork
Amelia, 6, b. Poplar Middlesex
Augustus, 3, b. Poplar Middlesex
Given George's age, is it possible John was from a first marriage of George? (or illegitimate?), and that's why he's being difficult to find?
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to clerify her are details of Amelia Ann birth certificate:-
1. 24/09/1891, 3 Dolphin Yard, St Martin at Oak, Norwich
2. Amelia Ann
3. Girl
4. John Seago
5. Ann Seago formerly **Ardmile** **this is best guess**
6. Groom (circus)
7. A. Seago (mother) 3 Dolphin Yard St Martin at Oak, Nch
8. 10/11/1891
Please note. Ann Seago was previous Ann Hodnett who married George Sago at Mary and Joseph Catholic Church in Poplar Middx in 1864 and should not be confused with Ann Ardmile who married John Seago.
Ann Seago who looks like John Stepmother was living at
5 Dolphin Yard St Martin at Oak, Norwich.
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possibilities for George Sago/ Seago
1851: HO107/1810 Folio: 421 Page: 5
Aylsham, Norfolk - George aged 14 yrs , a wherryman (born Yarmouth) parents: Robert and Maria
1861 RG9/251 Folio: 79 Page: 34
George Seago aged 21 yrs born Cambridge, Iron Plate Worker lodging in Bethnal Green. (other lodger born Cambridge so possibility of enumerator error??)
I know that ages do not tally- that can often happen. I have searched for Georges born around that time and Norfolk but cannot find anything.
Graham - if you want fuller details please post.
Heywood
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John never seems to be with the family - as jorose says, maybe he is illegitimate or from a first marriage ?
I have searched for Augustus who seems to disappear after 1881 - perhaps he changed his name to John?
There are several possibilities I suppose.
I'm afraid I am stumped now and may have to retire. I do hope that you find something.
Did Amelia remain with Aunt Maria?
Lastly- just being nosey here - does 'Ardmile' come from Amelia's certificate and is it the writing that makes you 'guess' it?
You can search Irish BMD indexes at local LDS centres.
best wishes anyway
heywood
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On Amelia's birth certificate it show Ann Seago formerly Ardmile. I've had several pairs of eyes look at this and going by the handwriting for other words on the cert, this is what we have worked out to say, having said that I am not convinced as I cant find any reference to this surname anywhere on the internet.
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what a nuisance for you! No I have looked for it without success- there is Ardill but that's clutching at straws.
Last idea (!) - have you looked at Ethel's birth certificate- that might be clearer handwriting!
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On Augustus was born George Augustus Sago born 1867 in poplar.
I think he is listed as both George and Augustus on different census, he married Alice Williment in 1898. He appears to have kept the name Sago, I think he had four daughters, none were Amelia Ann Seago.
It took nearly 4 week to get my order for Amelia Ann Seago birth cert, I may well order ethel's at a later date, if I cant find any further leads.
I wondered if Ardmile was an Irish surname and if he met her either working or when the circus came to town.
Amelia Seago stayed at abandoned with the Maria Randell.
Our family history or rumour, Although as with all family rumours this may or not be the whole story was Amelia was told her mother was Irish.
PS I would like to thank everyone who has help me with this topic :)
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I had found George Augustus on one of the searches but then couldn't pick him up again- glad that's solved!
The Irish connection may come from grandma Ann though (sorry- not really doubting!)
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Since my original posting, I have done a fair bit of research. my conclusion is that neither John Seago or Ann Ardmile exist and these were made up to avoid stigma of illegitimacy.
I ordered her sisters, Ethel Seago birth certificate these have different mother 'Maria Hownett' and father 'Arthur Seago' these names also don't appear on marriage register or match on previous census(es) to 1891. I conclude this was probably made up too.
Amelia Ann Seago marriage certificate shows no Father listed.
So I must conclude that her father was unknown to her, and that her father may have been a circus groom called John but I doubt his surname was Seago.
Who was Amelia Ann Seago mother, I am working on this still!
regards
Graham
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so still unconclusive.
as you say the stigma may have been too much- parish records would perhaps at a long shot indicate something but don't know where you would find them.
Am trying to pick up the thread - at the time of writing I must have been in tune with it and am now working ou who is who.
Just looking over this- you write that Ann Seago was previously Ann Hodnett - and now we have that Ethel's mother was Maria Hownett - I wonder if 'Aunt Maria' is Ethel's mother?
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I think on your last point that Ethel's mother was likely to be Maria Seago - Maria's mothers maiden name being Hodnett.
An Ethel Randall is listed as a witness on Amelia Ann Seago's marriage certificate and it is possible that these could be the same person.
It is possible in my mind that Maria Seago could be Amelia Ann Seago's mother but also it could be one of Maria's sisters either Amelia Barnes (nee Seago) who's husband (James Barnes) appears to have left her by 1891 census for another woman who he married not long after, or young sister Ellen Seago - I'm not sure but certainly Amelia's Grandmother was Ann Seago (nee Hodnett).
Too resolve this I think I need to contact my elderly great aunt in Australia via a third party by email.
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without looking further, I think I noticed that Ellen would have been too/ or very young to be the mother- perhaps as you say Amelia.
Good luck with it all
heywood
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As this is quite an old post, I'm not sure too sure if this is an ongoing 'forum', I would however like to add my comments, just in case it is:-
I am the 2x Niece of Ann Sago/Seago, nee Hodnett. I have also encountered the same brick walls regarding John Seago and Arthur Seago, not being able to find either. This is what I have and the conclusions I have come to:
Ann Hodnett born about 1847 in Cork Ireland, she was the youngest daughter of Francis Hodnett, mother name unknown) she married George Robert Sago-Seago on 6th March 1864 in Poplar East London, his Father was Robert Sego-Seago (deceased) Ann was 17 and George 24. They had 4 children, George Augustus born 15/09/1869 (died 18/10/1927 Cobholm), Amelia Ann born abt. 1866, Ellen born abt. 1876 Maria born abt. 1877 all in Poplar, East London. The source of my information is birth & marriage certs. & 1881 census for St. Paul, Norwich.
Then have the birth certificate of Amelia Ann Seago, born 24/09/1891, mothers name is given as Ann Sago-Seago, formerly Ardnitt, which I believe should be Hodnett. Father was John Seago. The 1891 census shows Ann as widow.
I also have the birth certificate of Ethel, born 2/9/1894, mothers name is given as Maria formerly Hownett, again I think this should be Hodnett; fathers name Arthur Sago-Seago. I also have the death certificate of Ethel and her occupation is shown as: Spinster, tea packer, daughter of Maria Seago now the widow of Henry William Randall, informant is shown as Maria Randall mother.
Two scenarios worth thinking about:-
Anne Sago-Seago had a sister Maria, born abt. 1847 in Cork Ireland; she married Charles Barry in 1863. I have made extensive searches over the past few years and only ever found her once on the 1880 USA census in Pennsylvania. Did Maria come back to the UK and live in Norwich with her sister Ann, and marry/live with one of the Seago’s; OR
Was Ethel the illegitimate daughter of Maria Seago (born 1877 in Poplar,) who married Henry William Randell in 1896, Norwich Register Office?
1911 Census shows Amelia Seago aged 19 and Ethel Seago aged 16 living with Henry & Maria Randall, in the column ‘Relation to head’ nothing is shown.
Amelia Ann Seago, the daughter of George Robert Seago and Ann Hodnett, is shown on the 1911 census as Amelia Hurrell, wife of Walter Hurrell, there were 6 children, Sidney aged 22 and Charlie 14, who I believe were from a previous marriage of Walter, then George 9, (who could have been a Barnes, Amelia Barnes and George Barnes (13months) were living with Ann Seago, & daughter Ellen on the 1891 census)Ellen 12, Sidney 9, Edith 6, Henry 4, and Arthur & Albert aged 2. Also living with them as a boarder was Arthur Farrow, who married Amelia Seago 12th May, 1912. The marriage of Amelia and Walter never actually took place until 24th February 1932; the witnesses were Maria Randall & A.A. Farrow. Amelia died 13th April 1937, in Norwich.
Ann Seago was shown to be living in the Norwich workhouse in the 1911 census. She dies 13th March 1913 in the Workhouse Infirmary.
I hope that I have not mudded the waters too much.
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Cheers, Hoddie.
In conclusion - both certificates have made up father's. Although there maybe some truth about the circus groom as a mengerie was in the City over Xmas 1890.
Maria was born 1871 Births Dec 1871 Sago Maria Poplar 1c 672
- she died 01/04/1949 - local newspaper tributes in 1949 & 1950 lists Amelia as daughter to Maria Randall.
If Amelia wasn't daughter of Maria, Amelia obviously thought she was!
I will send you a private message - re hodnetts.
GJB
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Thanks GJB, look forward to hearing from you.
Hoddie
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Hi There,
I am just starting to look into this as Amelia Hurrell / Seago is my great great grandmother - she had another daughter called Annie Elizabeth Hurrell (also known as Hannah, my great grandmother) she married Sam John Kadge and had three children, the youngest one Brenda who is my grandmother.
I checked with my grandmother who says she remembers Charlie and and George and of course Amelia and Walter (her grandparents) - My grandmother also said Annie had another sister called Alice who was Amelias daughter?? Also Arthur Farrow was always known by my grandmother as uncle Arthur.
Gave you managed to find anything else out as i am very interested to start my family tree.
It seems to be tradition in my family for name changes as my grandmother although born Brenda is largely known as Marlene!!