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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Mike A on Friday 21 April 06 14:39 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone, this is my first post.
My grandfather, Arthur Harding, was born on 9th May 1866, in Ballincollig. I have a copy of his birth certificate which gives his father's name also as 'Arthur Harding' and his mother's maiden name as 'Margaret Long'. Despite a lot of internet searching and a great deal of assistance from a local Ballincollig resident, I've hit a brick wall here and can't find any reference to my great grandparents, Arthur and Margaret.
My grandfather's birth certificate gives my great-grandfather's occupation as 'Collar Maker, R.A.', which seems to indicate he was in the Army and attached to Ballincollig Barracks. This in turn makes me wonder if he was born elsewhere and just happened to be posted there when my grandfather was born.
I am now trying to figure out what Army regiment or unit he might have been in, so that I can check the military records in London, but there seems to be little information on the internet about the actual regiments or units attached to Ballincollig Barracks in the mid-1800's, other than the fact that they were mostly artillery units. Does anyone have information on the regiments that were resident in Ballincollig Barracks in 1866?
BTW, I'm looking forward to making a brief visit to Ballincollig in a few weeks time (on 29 - 31 May)!
Regards from Australia.
Mike
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Hi Mike and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
What do you know about your Great Grandfather - do you know anything else that may help somebody help you !! :) it's usually easier to look for the person rather than the regiment !! I did find this - maybe it will give you an idea of the area !!
A lot of water has passed along the Millrace at Ballincollig since the year 1805 when the lands were acquired on behalf of the Crown to safeguard the nearby gunpowder mills from the threat posed by Napoleonic France. The Mills were originally a civilian enterprise established by Sir Charles Leslie in 1794 but were later acquired by the Royal Ordnance to ensure a steady supply of gunpowder. Ballincollig Barracks subsequently became the principal artillery depot for the county of Cork having, in 1837, accommodation for 18 officers, 242 men and facilities for eight field batteries. The barracks included a hospital, a church built in 1814 and a school. Records show that it also included a granary and a grocery shop. In the course of the 19th century, Ballincollig grew into an important industrial village and by 1850 the Ballincollig Royal Gunpowder Mills, which had passed into civilian ownership in 1833, was one of the largest industrial establishments in Munster employing over 500 people and producing 16,000 barrels of gunpowder annually. However, after the Boer War in 1901, the gunpowder mills were forced to close.
For a time Ballincollig served as the principal police training facility for the province of Munster. In 1922, Ballincollig Barracks was formally handed over by the War Department to the new Irish State. During the ensuing Civil War, the barracks was burned and was only reopened in 1940 when it was named Murphy Barracks in memory of a former Officer Commanding 3rd Btn. 1st Cork Brigade, who saw active service during the War of Independence and was killed in action at Waterfall on 22nd June 1921. Various historical figures including Sir Robert Baden Powell, who founded the Boy Scouting Movement in 1908, were stationed at Ballincollig during their Military careers
Annie :)
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Mike,
It seems to me that you already have the regiment; RA = Royal Artillery.
Do you know what year your great grandfather died? If it was after March 1901 then you could look him up on the 1901 census for Ballincollig (assuming he didn't move) and it should say on the census form where he was born if not in County Cork. Ditto for Margaret.
I suppose you've seen your grandfather's sister Eliza on the IGI born in 1864? It may be worth getting her birth cert too, just to see if there's any snippet of info more on his army background - service number for example...
good luck
Leofric
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Hi Mike and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
What do you know about your Great Grandfather - do you know anything else that may help somebody help you !! :) it's usually easier to look for the person rather than the regiment !! I did find this - maybe it will give you an idea of the area !!
Hi Annie, thanks for the welcome!
I already have a lot of information about Ballincollig and the Barracks, including the information you have given, but thank you anyway.
My biggest problem is that I can find absolutely no reference whatsoever to my great grandparents other than on the birth record of my grandfather and on my grandparent's marriage certificate. Margaret Jordan (a lovely lady who I have yet to meet) lives in Ballincolig and has made a tremendous effort on my behalf, searching local cemeteries and records, but without success. (She obtained the copy of my grandfather's birth certificate for me from the Cork Registry Office).
The 1881 England census shows that by that year my grandfather had moved to Wandsworth, in London. He is recorded as aged 15, a labourer, lodging with a family called Higgs. I cannot find any reference to his parents, my great-grandparents Arthur and Margaret, in any census, BMD or parish records, so I have no idea whether they also went to England or stayed in Ireland.
My grandfather married my grandmother, Minnie Margaret Allsop, in Dartford in March 1896 and their marriage certificate records Arthur Harding senior's occupation as 'licensed victualler', so it appears he had left the Army by that time, but where he was living - England, Ireland or elsewhere - I have no idea. The problem is made more difficult because I can't even find a reference to my grandfather in the 1891 nor to either of my grandparents in the 1901 census!
I have been told by my older sister that Arthur and Minnie Harding were first cousins, but have drawn a blank with that line of enquiry also.
HOWEVER -
Mike,
I suppose you've seen your grandfather's sister Eliza on the IGI born in 1864? It may be worth getting her birth cert too, just to see if there's any snippet of info more on his army background - service number for example...
good luck
Leofric
Thanks for this information, Leofric - no, I have no information at all about my grandfather's siblings!! If he had a sister, Eliza, that opens up a whole new line of enquiry. THANK YOU!
As for the Army details - yes, he was in the Royal Artillery, but it is difficult to find details of individuals from the military records unless you have a bit more information - i.e., what unit of the RA was stationed in Ballincollig (I don't think it could have been the entire regiment since the accommodation in the Barracks would have been insufficient). There was also the Royal Horse Artillery - a different regiment - and given that my great grandfather was a 'collar maker' (a skilled trade in saddlery) it is possible that the actual units stationed in Ballincollig were Royal Horse Artillery (RHA), notwithstanding the use of just "RA" on my grandfather's birth certificate.
Thank you both again for the responses - very much appreciated.
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike, I live just a few miles from Ballincollig........ have ou read the book on the Barracks?there is a gravestone marked 1865 for a soldier who was buried 1865 ...... Royal Artillery E Battery 8th Brigade. CI
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Hi Mike, I live just a few miles from Ballincollig........ have ou read the book on the Barracks?there is a gravestone marked 1865 for a soldier who was buried 1865 ...... Royal Artillery E Battery 8th Brigade. CI
Wow, this site rocks! Thank you very much for this information - in just a few days since my very first post I've discovered that my grandfather (b. 1866) had a sister, born in 1864! (Thanks again, Leofric - I've now confirmed that very important fact and Mrs Jordan in Ballincollig is getting a copy of Eliza's birth certificate for me) - and now CI has helped me by an almost certain identification of the 8th Brigade R.A. that my great grandfather probably served in!
If I can help anybody out from an Australian perspective, please let me know - I've become totally fascinated by this research and I'd be very glad to do what I can for someone else. (I will start another thread listing the names and locations that I may be able to help someone with).
Thanks again and regards from Oz,
Mike
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Hi Mike!
I saw this on another thread on the Irish board !!
my gggrandfather travelled to Saint Helena by ship in 1867 after joining the Royal Artillery
Just a thought ....... wonder if that would be a possibility ??
You might check the Australian board - look it over - then you can help on there too !!
Annie :)
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Thanks, Annie - it's possible that my great grandfather travelled elsewhere with the RA, but I have no previous indication that he left Ireland at all. Still, it is worth following up.
BTW, I'm the Australian immigrant, not my ancestors! I was born in Hendon, London, and emigrated to Australia in 1969.
Rgds
Mike
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Theres plenty of us "transplants" on this site !! as you'll soon find out !! :) :) :)
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Annie:
How do I post a picture of my grandfather as an avatar? I've been trying for about half an hour but nothing seems to work. I participate in a boat-building forum and have no problem with posting pictures and avatars there, but that forum also has a member's picture gallery where you can upload your pictures first. I've tried amending my profile, too, but nothing seems to work.
Any ideas?
Rgds
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I'm sorry to reply to you with questions, but I may have a theory about Arthur jnr and Minnie being first cousins but it depends on whether she is the daughter of James ALLSOPP, and how far you've traced her back.
Also do you have the names of their children born before 1901?
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
Thanks for your post!
Yes, indeed, my grandmother Minnie Margaret Harding nee Allsop's parents were James Allsop and Elizabeth Harding.
They were married on 19 October 1856 in Croydon, Surrey.
Minnie Margaret was born in Wimbledon, Surrey, in 1867 and married Arthur Harding (b. Ballincollig Ireland in 1866) in Dartford, Kent, on 7 March 1896. My mother, Margaret Elizabeth Harding, was born in Wilmington, Dartford, on 21 April 1897. She married my father, Joseph William Adams, on 6 November 1920, in Hendon, Middlesex. (I was born in Hendon in 1942). My mother had one sister, Edith, but I haven't established her birth year yet (it was after 1901). I also have an unconfirmed report that Minnie and Arthur adopted a boy named Ronald Coleman, but whether this was an 'official' adoption or whether they just fostered him for a while, I don't know. Although I remember my Aunt Edith well, I do not have any recollection of a 'Robert Coleman' in the family.
As far as I can determine, Minnie's mother, Elizabeth Harding, died in 1868 and I think that James Allsop later marrried his housekeeper, Sarah Brand, in Wandsworth in 1876. James was born in Waltham Abbey, Essex, in 1832 and I think his father's name was Daniel, also born in Waltham Abbey about 1795/6. Daniel's wife's name was Ann, b. about 1807 in Cheshunt, Herefordshire, but I haven't been able to get back further than that.
I have been trying to trace Elizabeth Harding's ancestors, as I think they must have also come from Ireland and that is where the family connection must lie for Arthur and Minnie to have been first cousins. Unfortunately, the limited amount of information available from Irish records (especially from the other side of the world!) makes this a very difficult task.
Regards
Mike
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Daisy,
More on the above - I have checked the 1841 census and I think Elizabeth Harding was born in Surrey in 1833. The entry shows "Mary Harding, b. abt 1791 in Ireland, and William Harding, b. abt 1801. William's birthplace is not shown, but the census record shows he was not born in the census area - i.e., Surrey, so he may also have been born in Ireland. The entry shows another daughter, Mary Harding, b. abt 1828 in Surrey.
Looks like it all fits, but I can't be sure without some confirmation.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
My theory exactly :)
So the Elizabeth HARDING who marries James ALLSOPP would have to be the sister of Arthur HARDING Snr, but I don't think there has to be an Irish connection if he was a British soldier serving in Ireland when you Grandfather was born.
I may have found another possibilty for Elizabeth in the 1851/1841 census... bear with me while I check a bit more...
Daisy
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Annie:
How do I post a picture of my grandfather as an avatar? I've been trying for about half an hour but nothing seems to work. I participate in a boat-building forum and have no problem with posting pictures and avatars there, but that forum also has a member's picture gallery where you can upload your pictures first. I've tried amending my profile, too, but nothing seems to work.
Any ideas?
Rgds
Mike
Sorry Mike ! - I went to bed !! :P :P :P ;)
But try this - sounds complicated but it isn't - unless somebody can tell you again on here !!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
Annie :) :)
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Daisy,
Here's some more info I've found.
The 1841 census entry for Elizabeth Harding shows in the family a "Mary Harding, b. abt 1791 in Ireland" and a "William Harding, b. abt 1801." William's birthplace is not given, but the census record states that he was NOT born in the census county - i.e., Surrey - so it is possible that he was also born in Ireland. There is a 10-yr difference between William and Mary, but that is not necessarily significant, or could be a transcription error. (Another daughter is also shown - "Mary, b. abt 1828 in Surrey").
Now if Elizabeth Harding and Arthur Harding senior were in fact siblings and William and Mary were their parents, Minnie and Arthur Jnr were indeed first cousins, while William and Mary were my great-great grandparents.
This is looking a very likely possibility, but I will need to get some written confirmation before I can be sure.
Thanks for your interest and for prompting this line of thinking.
Rgds
Mike
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Sorry Mike ! - I went to bed !! :P :P :P ;)
Annie :) :)
Thanks Annie, and so must I - it's nearly 1a.m. here in Oz and I've been sitting at the computer for hours! I'll try the link tomorrow.
Cheers.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Here's the Elizabeth I found, she's with her brother Arthur in 1851 and living just up the road from where James ALLSOPP lives... :)
1851 census HO107/1602 f.290 p.37 Surrey Merton St. Mary
Clowers Cottages
James GALOR Head Wid ?4 Shoemaker City of London
Elizabeth HARDING Step-daur U 17 Employed at home Kent Road
Arthur " " Step-son 14 Kent Road
Sarah GOFF Step-Daur 12 Surrey Sutton
Emily GALOR Daur 8 Kent Lewisham
Joseph " " Son 6 Kent Road
Francis " " Daur 4 Surrey Wimbledon
Edmund " " Son 2 " " " "
Do you have the marriage certificate of Elizabeth and James, which should show her father?
Daisy
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I wonder if you already have the 1861 ...... ::) there was also a William Harding born 1843 London !!
1861
Battery A, Royal Horse Artillery
Arthur Harding 25 Croydon, Surrey, England Driver (single)
RG9/431 Folio 256 Page 11
Annie :)
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That would seem fit with the Arthur HARDING above, as part of the that family are in Croydon in 1841, but Arthur there seems to be John ::)
1841 HO107/1078/7 f.21 p.34 Surrey, Croydon, Union Street, Old Town
Hannah GOFF 30 Charwoman Y
Elizth HARDING 7 Y
John " " 3 Y
Sarah GOFF 2 Y
There's a christening on the IGI for Sarah GOFF
GOFF Sarah 21 Jun 1840 Sutton by Croydon, Surrey
Father; William GOFF
Mother; Hannah
and a possible marriage for the parents,
GOFF William Jun Q 1839 Kensington v.3 p.175
HARDING Hannah Jun Q 1839 Kensington v.3 p.175
Daisy
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Looks like Elizabeth had died by 1871 - as James was married again in 1881 !!
1871
Wimbledon
James Allsopp 40 Head Wdw Waltham Abbey Essex
RG10/857 Folio 114 Page 6
1881
3 Factory Lane Garratt
James Allsopp Age 49 Head Waltham Abbey Essex Labourer In Silk Works
RG11/831 Folio 99 Page 2
Annie :)
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Oh dear :( it looks like this may not be the right Arthur after all, unless Margaret was Margaret Ellen or she died before 1873 and Arthur remarried...
1881 census RG11/3884 f.34 p.18 Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire
??port Road
Arthur HARDING Head M 45 Army pensioner Toll gate keeper Surrey Clayton?
Ellen HARDING Wife M 37 Lancs Manchester
John HARDING Son 7 Scholar East Indies Julinder
Sarah E " " Daur 5 " " " " " "
George " " Son 3 " " " "
There is an IGI entry for John
HARDING John
Birth; 24 Jul 1873 India Office Ecclesiastical Returns-Bengal Presidency...Misc...India
Father; Arthur HARDING
Mother; Ellen
(He's still in Barton Upon Irwell in 1891 with more children, and in 1901 he's in Salford Lancashire owning his own Grocers shop.)
but it may explain why no-one can find Arthur and Margaret on any census :-\
Daisy
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Morning all - well, at least it's morning over here! Can't spend a lot of time on this today as my daughter is claiming my time for kitchen renovations!
I am overwhelmed by the interest being shown and for the help I am getting - thank you!
Annie, I had previously found the entry for Arthur Harding in the R.A. and got quite excited as it all seemed to fit. I then found the 1881 Lancashire census entry which does not fit at all, so I abandoned that line of enquiry. However, perhaps I should not have dismissed this so easily, because there are a couple of interesting coincidences highlighted by your post.
First coincidence:
Arthur Harding's occupation in the 1881 census for LANCASHIRE is given as "Toll Gate Keeper, SURREY"! Lancashire is a long way from Surrey, so this is a very difficult entry to understand. I guess it's possible that Arthur had to work in Surrey and was visiting his family at the time of the 1881 census, but this does not seem all that likely. The real coincidence, though, is that the William Harding living in Surrey in 1841, who was born in 1801 and who may have been my great-grandfather Arthur's father, also had the occupation of "Toll Collector"! Although there is a 40 year gap between these entries, it is interesting that both men were "Toll Keepers" in Surrey.....
Second coincidence:
You say that in 1901 he (John?) was in Salford owning his own Grocer's shop. Now my grandfather Arthur and Minnie Allsop's marriage certificate dated 7 March 1896 shows his father's occupation as "licensed victualler", which I understand could mean either a provisions store or a public house. I wonder if Arthur senior died between 1896 and 1901, and John took over the shop? This doesn't explain why Arthur's wife's name is given as "Ellen", but as you say, perhaps Margaret Long's name was "Mary Ellen" or she had died before John was born in 1873 and Arthur had remarried?
Daisy:
I have all the info on James Allsop and I'm fairly sure he remarried - to his housekeeper, Sarah Brand - in 1876.
The info on the GOFF family is also intriguing. This is the first time I've come across this name, which I would not have thought was all that common - not as common as Harding, anyway. The juxtaposition of the name Goff with Harding in the entries you quote seems to be a bit more than sheer coincidence! The confusing entry to "John" instead of "Arthur" might be explained if his name was Arthur John and the family used his second name in preference.
Darn it, why didn't they realise we would be researching their history 160-odd years later and make things easy for us?!! ;D
Must sign off now.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Hope your renovations are going/have gone well (I've no idea what time it is where you are :) )
By the way, not that it matters, but I think you've mixed up mine and Annie's posts, so it's me that has to apologise for the confusing transcription of the 1881 census,
It shows Arthur's occupation as Army Pensioner.Toll gate keeper, and his place of birth as Surrey Clayton? also on taking another look he is living in the village of Irlam in the Civil Parish of Barton Upon Irwell.
He is also there in 1891
RG12/3156 f.16 p.25 Irlam, Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire
Toll Bar House (entries either side are 54/Liverpool Rd/48)
Arthur HARDING Head M 54 Collector of Tolls Surrey Croydon
Ellen " " Wife M 42 Ches: Macclesfeld
John " " Son S 17 Grocer Julinder East Indies
Sarah E " " Daur 15 Murrey Hills " "
George " " Son 13 Rollpinda " "
Lillian " " Daur 9 Lanc: Irlam
Henrietta " " Daur 7 " " " "
James " " Son 4 " " " "
There is an article about Irlam here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irlam
In 1901 it is Arthur in Salford
RG13/3734 f.149 p.29 Salford, Lancashire
178 Tatton? St.
Arthur HARDING Head M 64 Grocer Shop Keeper/Own acc./At home/ Surrey Croydon
Ellen " " Wife M 54 Cheshire Macclesfield
Sarah E " " Daur S 25 Machinist (under-clothes) East Indies
George " " Son S 23 Labourer ???maker East Indies
Henrietta " " Daur 16 Dressmaker Lancs Irlam
James " " Son 15 Office boy " " " "
I've also found a possible death for Arthur Snr,
HARDING Arthur Dec Q 1902 age 61 Salford, Greater Manchester, Lancashire v.8d p.104
Right after all that typing I'm off to get some coffee :)
Daisy
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Hi Mike,
Hope your renovations are going/have gone well (I've no idea what time it is where you are :) )
Yes, thanks - I'm pleased with the results. More to the point, so is my daughter! Canberra (Australia) is currently 9 hours ahead of London.
By the way, not that it matters, but I think you've mixed up mine and Annie's posts.
Sorry - I think I must have had yet another senior moment.........! ::)
I'm back to thinking that the Hardings in Lancashire are probably not the right family - but one interesting fact is that their children were born in the East Indies. This seems to indicate that Arthur may have been posted overseas with his regiment. Since my great grandfather was also in the R.A., perhaps he was posted overseas around the same time, which might account for the difficulty in finding information on him.
I will be in Montreal on business from 6 to 19 May, then in London from 20 to 29 May, and in Ballincollig from 29 to 31 May, before returning to Oz on 2 June. I am going to take the opportunity to visit the Family Research Centre and also the National Archives in London. Maybe I will turn up some more information there.
Thanks again for the help.
Regards
Mike
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Trying to post a picture here of my grandfather, Arthur Harding - hope it works!
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Eureka! O.K., now I'm going to try posting a smaller version as an Avatar..... ;) First I'll download it here, then try posting the URL to my profile....
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Doesn't look like that worked.... oh well, back to the drawing board!
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OK - it did work, but the image won't appear as an Avatar until the next post. Also, the size doesn't adjust automatically, so I will try it again with a smaller image....
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Got it at last! Now you can see who we are talking about.
O.K., back to the thread topic - I have to thank Leofric most sincerely for the lead to my Grandfather's sister, Eliza, whose existence I was not previously aware of. I've now received Eliza's birth certificate from Mrs Jordan in Ballincollig and it reveals a few more interesting facts! Eliza was born on 24 July 1864, in Ballincollig. Her parents, Arthur Harding and Margaret Harding (nee Long) are clearly identified as being the same couple on my grandfather's birth certificate, and Arthur senior's occupation is again given as "Collar Maker, Royal Artillery".
However, he is shown on this certificate as resident in "Curragh of Kildare", so sometime between 1864 and 1866 he must have moved from the Curragh Military Barracks to the Ballincollig Barracks. There are records of graves in the British military Graveyard in Ballincollig between 1860 and 1865 belonging to soldiers of the Royal Artillery in N°. 2 Battery, 9th Brigade, H Battery, 6th Brigade, and E Battery, 8th Brigade. All this lends credence to the theory that he was a British soldier born in England and posted to Ireland. This gives me some specific information on which to base my search when I visit the National Archives in May.
Mrs Jordan has also uncovered the fact that Eliza was baptised in the Catholic Church in Ballincollig on 24th July 1864 and Arthur was baptised there on 18th May 1866. (The birth certificate gives her name as 'Eliza', but the baptismal record uses the full name 'Elizabeth' - perhaps she was named after Arthur's sister?). On both occasions the sponsors were Laurence O'Brien and Julia Manning. Julia Manning is listed as the informant on Eliza's birth certificate. Laurence O'Brien is listed as one of the principal landholders in Ballincollig in the 1875 directory. Since my mother was raised in the Church of England, I always understood that my grandfather and grandmother were C of E and I assumed that his parents were therefore Church of Ireland. Just goes to show you shouldn't assume ANYTHING in this game!
Next line of search is the Ballincollig Catholic Church records to see if we can locate the marriage of Arthur Harding and Margaret Long. I don't know if my great-grandfather was Catholic or not, but if not, perhaps Margaret Long was and Arthur agreed to have the children baptised in the Catholic Church. This may lend further credence to the idea that Arthur senior and his sister Elizabeth were born in Surrey, while Margaret was born in Ireland and met Arthur when he was posted there with the Royal Artillery. However, the County Kildare reference has thrown another yet factor into the equation when searching for information on her and her family!
As Mrs Jordan said in her email to me, the puzzle unfolds slowly......!!
Mike
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Hi Mike,
I found this info about the R.A which you may find useful,
68 Battery RA
With the war over the Company moved back to Woolwich in July 1856 before moving on to Northampton in 1857 equipped as a Field Battery until moving to Aldershot in 1858.
In 1859 the organisation of the Royal Artillery was changed and the Company now became known as 4 Battery 8th Brigade Royal Artillery.
However in 1861 while at Davenport because it was a Field Battery its designation changed again to 'D' Battery 8th Brigade RA.
From 1863 until returning to Woolwich in 1866 the Battery moved about Ireland changing stations every few months.
Finally in July 1866 the Battery embarked for India landing in Calcutta on 28th October before marching to Sitapore to arrive there on 14th December 1866. Before long it was on the march again to Bareilly in 1867 where they remained until 1871. From Bareilly they marched to Jubbulpore, Benares in 1872 and then Lahore. The system was to move the Batteries about to different stations quite frequently.
1877 whilst at Nowgong the organisation changed again and the Battery became known as 'D' Battery 3 Brigade RA but remained a Field Battery. During 1877 the Battery took part in an engagement at Jowaki.
The Battery returned to Woolwich in 1881.
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
Thank you for this interesting information - it is most helpful and may assist in narrowing my search down considerably.
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,
What a nice picture of your Grandfather :) , and this seems to be your day for good news, first the great info from Ballincollig, and now hopefully I can tell you where your Grandfather was in 1901 :)
It's transcribed as HUSSEY ::) but looks very much like HARDING to me,
RG13/707 f.31 p.15 Wilmington, Kent
10 Dorset House
Laura TERRY Head S 60 Kent Dartford
Arthur HARDING Head M 35 General Labourer Ireland Cork
Minnie M " " Wife M 34 Surrey Wimbledon
Margaret E " " Daur S 3 Kent Wilmington
(I've included Laura TERRY as the HARDING family seem to be living in the same house as her, the neighbouring houses of 9 & 11 have separate households in them.)
Regards
Daisy
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Daisy,
Thank you once again! That is definitely the right family - Arthur born in Cork, Minnie born in Wimbledon, Surrey, and Margaret Elizabeth Harding, b. 21 April 1897 in Wilmington, Kent (my mother). This picture shows her at the age of about ten, I think.
I would never have thought to look under "Hussey" - it's too far removed from "Harding"! The Internet is a wonderful resource, but we do have to rely on the accuracy of the transcriptions.
Re your previous post, could you let me have the link to the information on 68 Battery RA, please? I did a search and Google found the first line of the text you posted, but when I tried to open that site, I got an error message saying it could not be found. ???
Thanks again,
Mike
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Mike,
That's a really lovely picture of your mother :)
Re my last post I think you've found the page I was reading, it seem to be disabled, if you hit 'cache' it will show you the entire article but none of the links works :(
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
I'm back from my overseas trip including visits to the Family Research Centre in Islington, the National Archives in Kew Gardens and Ballincollig in Ireland. I found lots of very useful information which has unravelled the puzzle considerably.
I found my Great Grandfather Arthur Harding's Army Discharge Papers and also references to him in the Pay and Muster Books in the National Archives. These confirm that:
1. He was born in Croydon in April or May 1835;
2. He joined the Royal Artillery on 25 August 1857, serving in the 2nd battalion, 8th Brigade as a "Gunner/Driver" on enlistment;
3. He was promoted to "Collar Maker" on 1 February 1862 and was posted with the 8th Brigade to Ireland from about 1863 to 1866;
4. He was promoted to Corporal on 1 February 1867 in Woolwich and re-enlisted for a further ten years on 10 October 1867;
5. He was promoted to Sergeant Collar Maker on 2 October 1869 and transferred to 3 Brigade on 1 July 1877;
6. He was discharged on 2 October 1878 in Rawul Pindi, East Indies, after serving a total of 21 years and 39 days in the Royal Artillery, including several years in the East Indies (the actual figure has been partially scratched out and is hard to decipher but it looks like 10 (?) years and 294 days).
However. I have also located a marriage record for "Arthur Coventry Harding" - December Quarter 1871, in Richmond, Surrey and on the same record page is shown "Ellen Brooks".
An Ellen Brooks was born in Macclesfield, Cheshire, in 1845 - this is two years out for the Ellen Harding shown in the 1901 census, but given the birthplace it seems a very likely possibility that this is the Ellen who married Arthur Harding. The only difficulty is matching the length of Arthur's service in the East Indies with the marriage date of 1871, but on the other hand it does fit with John Harding's birth to Arthur and Ellen Harding in the East Indies in 1873!
While I was in Ballincollig I was able to obtain the Baptismal Certificates for my Grandfather and his sister, which confirm that their parents were Arthur Harding and Margaret Long. Margaret was clearly from a Catholic family, hence their baptism in the RC church. I also believe I have located her Baptismal Certificate from the same RC church in Ballincollig. She appears to have been born and baptised on 5 April 1840. Her parents were John Long and Judith Brian. Now here's a fascinating fact - the RC church also found a birth/baptism entry for another Margaret Long, born to the SAME parents, but 5 years earlier! The godparents recorded on that certificate are different (though there is a surname connection), so this is not a duplicated entry with a different date. It seems highly likely that the first baby Margaret died and the second baby girl (my Great-Grandmother and Arthur's wife) was named after her. Apparently this was a fairly common practice in those days.
What happened after my Grandfather was born in 1866 I don't know - but Arthur Harding senior clearly returned to England in late 1866 and re-enlisted in 1867.
I think it is possible that Arthur senior left my grandfather and his sister Eliza with their mother or her family when he returned with the Army to England and I am guessing that perhaps Margaret Harding nee Long died sometime after that. (I doubt that the marriage would have broken up because, being Catholic ,Margaret would not have agreed to a divorce which would have precluded Arthur marrying Ellen in 1871, if indeed that is what actually happened).
This certainly seems the most likely scenario at the moment and has opened up several more possible leads.
There is lots more I could tell you - this was a VERY rewarding trip for me! - but this post is already rather lengthy! Thanks for the leads that you provided, which helped me to match all this info.
Cheers,
Mike
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Hi Mike, I'm at the ref. library in Bishopstown, Cork next week for the 1901 census. I suppose your interests had moved on by then. I'll take a look if you require anything. I'm also considering trying to get a census rundown on the military barracks at that time too.Good luck,CI.
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Hi, CI - thanks for the offer.
If you happen to come across any census entries for LONG or O'BRIEN families in the Ballincollig area, I'd be very interested to see them.
One of the things I discovered while in Ballincollig is that there is probably a connection between these two families. My great grandmother was Margaret Long and the Long family may have been living in the Kilnaglory area. I think Margaret's mother was Judith "Brian" and 24 years later (in 1864) the godparents of my grandfather's sister Eliza were Morgan and Julia "O'Brien". In 1866, my grandfather's godparents were Laurence O'Brien and Julia Manning (she may have been the Julia O'Brien of 1864).
I have to share a rather funny and very "Irish" comment that I got from the Aer Lingus check-in clerk at Cork airport when leaving there on Wednesday of last week. When I said that I was travelling from Cork to London and then on to Singapore, Sydney and Canberra - (34 hours travel, phew!) - his reply was, "Sure, if you go any further, you'll be coming back...!"
Cheers,
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Good to hear from you, it sounds like you had a very interesting trip :)
The info from Ireland is great, takes you back another generation, I hope you get lot's of help with that.
Arthur Snr's army record is interesting, I wonder if he took Margaret, Eliza and Arthur Jnr with him to India, Maybe Margaret died there? You can search overseas BMDs here,
http://www.1837online.com (pay per view)
I also wonder if he married Eliza there, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news :( but I can see a birth for Arthur Coventry HARDING Mar Q 1849 Sevenoaks, Kent, and the marriage in 1871 also has a Charlotte Maria BARNES on the same page. In 1901 I can see Arthur Coventry & Charlotte Maria HARDING living with children in Bristol.
I think if you think that the family in Lancashire are yours it may be worth getting one of the childrens birth certificates to find out Ellen's maiden name, then it would be easier to find the marriage. This looks likely to be Henrietta,
Henrietta HARDING Jun Q 1884 Barton upon Irwell v.8c p.642
Did you have any luck finding Arthur's marriage to Margaret?
Regards
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
Thanks for all the info. You are not the bearer of bad news at all - quite the reverse, as you have saved me from heading off down the wrong track with the info about Arthur Coventry Harding and wasting hours of effort. Thank you!
The RC priest in Ballincollig would not let us look at the original records for ourselves ::), but he searched through them himself while we were there and said he could not locate a marriage entry for Arthur Harding and Margaret Long for the period during which we thought they would have been married.
The puzzling part is that the Arthur Harding in Lancashire fits most of the criteria for my great-grandfather (i.e., born in Croydon, service with the Army, service in the East Indies, occupation in 1901 grocer/shopkeeper, etc) and if his wife's name was Margaret it would in my mind have been pretty conclusive.
However, the IGI entry for his son John that you found earlier -
HARDING John
Birth; 24 Jul 1873 India Office Ecclesiastical Returns-Bengal Presidency...Misc...India
Father; Arthur HARDING
Mother; Ellen
clearly shows his mother's name to be "Ellen". From the census returns we also know that she was born in Macclesfield, Cheshire, not Ireland, so this can't be an alternative name for "Margaret" Long. Since it is clearly a different person, the key question if this is the same Arthur Harding seems to be "what happened to Margaret?"
I have asked my Ballincollig contact, Mrs Jordan, if she can follow up to see if there is any record of Margaret Long's death there, but I will certainly follow up your suggestion to see if Margaret in fact died in the East Indies and Arthur remarried while over there.
There is no record of that event on his service record, however, and I did not have time while in London to check the Pay and Muster books for the late 1860's/early1870's to see if there was a marriage allowance entry paid to him.
I may also follow up your suggestion and get one of the children's birth certificates to determine Ellen's maiden name, but I'll do a bit more digging first.
It is entirely possible that there were two Arthur Hardings both born in Croydon and who both served in the Army in the East Indies, but I would not have thought the coincidence to be very likely. However, the single factor that now makes me think this a possibility is that whereas my great-grandfather was born in Croydon in April or May 1835 (from his Army discharge papers), the Arthur Harding in Lancashire was born about 2 years later (if the census records for 1891 and 1901 give his age accurately).
It's certainly a puzzle, but each little piece of information that comes to light is helping to unravel it.
Regards
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Don't forget the 1881 census, his age there is 45 which would be right if he was born in Apr/May 1835 :)
Ellen is quite a bit younger than him, although her age changes every census ::), maybe they were just trying to narrow the gap.
Daisy
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Hi Mike !
I found this .... could this be the Ellen ??
Young
Ellen
Harding
Arthur
1872
142
281
http://users.rootsweb.com/~indwgw/Bengal/BM6573XYZ.htm
Annie :)
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Hi Annie!
Thanks very much indeed for this information - I don't think there can be much doubt that this is the correct entry for the marriage of the Arthur and Ellen Harding who are found back in Lancashire in 1891 and 1901.
The question that now remains is, "Is this the same Arthur Harding (my great-grandfather) who was married to Margaret Long in Ireland in 1866, when my Grandfather Arthur (jnr) was born? Given all the other information I was able to find in the Army records in Kew, it certainly seems likely!
The clincher now would be to find a death record for "Margaret Harding", nee Long, sometime between my Grandfather's birth in Ireland in 1866 and the marriage of Arthur Harding and Ellen Young in India in 1872.
Thanks again for the help.
Mike
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Hello, I wish I had stumbled upon this site six years earlier! Mike A, if you are still researching this topic, you and I are very likely cousins. My maternal great grandfather was Arthur Harding Snr., born in Croydon, Collar Maker in the RA, served in Ireland (Athlone, Curragh Camp, Ballincollig, Clonmel - all at various times and periods). I have copies of his Muster Lists covering his movements from enlistment onwards. I have however, been unable to trace anything of his military record following his transfer to India from Woolwich in Dec. 1867. Our family history identifies his first wife as being Margaret Long, the marriage taking place in Ireland and his second wife being Ellen. Until following your thread, we hadn't established her maiden name, nor what and when happened to Margaret or indeed, the fact that there was the possible first born, Eliza! Following his discharge from the Army, Arthur Snr. became a collector of tolls in Irlam and my sister has very recently come across a photo of Arthur Snr. standing outside the toll house, situated on Liverpool Road which was close to the town of Eccles, near Manchester. I have not seen this as yet but am eager to receive a copy soon. My grandmother was Sarah Ellen Harding, born Murrey Hills, India around 1876(+-) and her younger Daughter was my mother. My grandmother lived all her life close to where the toll house used to be and I live a stones throw from Irlam!
As I said initially,I wish I had found this site earlier but hope you, Mike, still return to check for input such as mine. It would be great to confirm our connection and persue it further.
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Is anybody there? Further to my last post, in conversation with my sister recently, she can just about remember Arthur Jnr.'s half sister Henrietta who by all accounts, was a bit of a battle-axe. I assume my grandmother was given the name Ellen, with being the first female born to Arthur Snr. and Ellen Young (?). As you Mike A, we are intrigued by the lack of information regarding Margaret (Long), Eliza and Arthur Jnr.'s whereabouts prior to and immediately after, Arthur Snr.'s re-enlistment and posting to India. It has been mooted in our families past that Arthur Jnr. had emigrated to the U.S. but I feel this to be mere speculation. Making contact would be wonderful, can anyone help please?
Mike B.
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Hi embryo,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
It's a long time since I've looked at this thread!
New information is now online so perhaps we will be able to fill in the gaps :)
Firstly a possible death for Margaret HARDING nee LONG,
Margarett HARDING
Death Date: 09 Apr 1868
Burial Date: 10 Apr 1868
Burial Place: Cawnpore, Bengal, India
Age: 28
Her age would fit the 1840 baptism Mike A found (see reply 35 on this thread).
Regards,
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
Thank you so much for your reply. The information relating to Margaret Harding's death looks pretty certain to me and if correct,
is the resolution to a long, frustrating puzzle within my family! As you rightly state, the age, date and location would all appear to
fit. The remaining burning questions are, what happened to Eliza and Arthur Jnr. I know Arthur Jnr. appears on the 1881 census as in lodgings, in Wandsworth at the age of 15years. How and for heavens sake, why? I would be most grateful if you could give me some idea as to what the "new information now online" is and where it can be accessed.
As I stated in my initial post, I have Arthur Harding Snr.'s muster records up until his re-engagement (for 10 years 319 days!) and transfer to India dated 13 December 1876. His records conclude with the following statement: "There are no further Muster records for 8 Brigade, Royal Artillery in the Public Record Office for its period of service in India 1867-1877. There are no Muster records in the India Office Library. The most likely explanation is that they were left in India." This lends me to believe that Arthurs movements within India , will remain another frustration! Along with the muster records I have, are copies of Arthur's letters of recommendation from the Army. One of these letters is written by his then C.O., Major George Frederick Blackwood who was sadly killed in action in 1880, fighting the Ghazis during the 2nd Afghan War. This letter is signed off "G/3 Bgde RA, Murree. Punjab, 28th Sept. 1878." I wonder, could this be the Murrey Hills of my Grandmothers birth? The other letter is not quite so clear but under the signature, is written, "R.A. Rawal Pindi Div'n". Finally Daisy, it is interesting that in the April 1866-March 1867 muster list, the birth of Arthur Jnr. is noted i.e. "Born 9th May 1866, Ballincollig, Cork, Ireland. Father: Arthur Harding; Mother: Margaret Long. Source: Irish Registry Office via Mormon family record website." Why no mention of Eliza, I wonder?
Many thanks again for your interest,
embryo
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Hi,
Glad to have helped :)
The new info I referred to was about new records being transcribed and/or digitised then added to existing and new websites, there are so many records online today compared to 2006 when I originally helped on this thread :)
I found Margaret's death, which definately wasn't there before, at familysearch,
https://familysearch.org/
Arthur Snr and Margaret's marriage is there as are the births of Arthur Jnr and Eliza.
I also found this marriage, which could be a mistranscription of YOUNG,
Marriage Date: 30 Nov 1872
Marriage Place: Jullander, Bengal, India
Arthur HARDING
Groom's Birth Date: 1840
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 32
Father's Name: James HARDING
Bride's Name: Ellen GOONY
Age: 25
Father's Name: Henry MCGUIRE
This would suggest that either Ellen was a widow or possibly her mother had remarried and Ellen took her step-father's name.
Unfortunately you can't see the original images so details could always be wrong, I always advise looking at the originals but I don't know where you would find these. Maybe you could find some help here,
http://www.coraweb.com.au/india.htm
I'm not used to using military records other than those available on FindMyPast and ancestry so I'm not sure about the muster rolls info.
If Margaret died in 1868 Arthur Snr would have been left with two small children age; 2 and 4, he didn't immediately remarry so I wonder if Arthur Jnr and Eliza were sent back to relatives in either England or Ireland?
Googling for information I found this website,
http://ballincollig.wordpress.com/military-barracks/soldiers-who-served-in-ballincollig/
Scroll down to find the story of Arthur HARDING, as it refers to "Arthur (my grandfather who was born in Ballincollig)" and contains alot of the info on this thread it might have been written by Mike A. There is a comment section at the bottom so you could ask who wrote the article and hopefully you will be contacted by a newly found relative :)
Daisy
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Hi Daisy,
Many thanks for your post of 30th. I had at some stage seen the marriage info you quote, but had not been able to confirm that
Ellen Goony was the correct person. At present, Ellen could be Young or Goony. My mission now, is to try and firm up these facts, possibly as you suggested to Mike A, by viewing the birth certificate of any of the Harding children born in the UK. The Muster lists that I have, were obtained by one of my nephews and in conversation with him recently, he told me that he has obtained a copy of Arthur Harding Snr.'s Brigade movements in India. I await a copy in turn with keen anticipation! The web addresses that you kindly added look as though they may be fruitful and I shall be exploring them as soon as possible. The trouble is, the Olympics are taking their toll on my time! In the event that I find anything constructive from my searches, I shall of course, post my findings here.
Once again, many thanks for your support and interest.
embryo
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Hi Daisy,
As promised, I can now update you on recent developments. Firstly, I have received copies from my nephew, of the movements of G Battery, 8 Brigade from embarkation to India and some of their movements within India. The source is "Battery Records of the Royal Artillery, vol. 3 by M.E.S.Laws".
[E,F,G & H batteries, 8 Brigade R.A. sailed from Portsmouth Harbour on HM troopship Serapis on 14th Dec. 1867. Arrived at Bombay and landed 17th Jan. 1868. February-March: On the march. Reached Cawnpore 8th April 1868. In Cawnpore until Dec. 1870, when they transfer to Jullundur, arriving 21st. Dec. 1870. November 1873 on the march to Peshawar, arriving 25th. November1873. January 1876 on the march to Rawalpindi, arriving 21st. January 1876. The regiment was reorganised and G Battery, 8 Brigade became G Battery, 3 Brigade 1st. July 1876.]
The Cawnpore details appear to confirm your post regarding the death of Margaret,9th. April1868 as this ties in with the Battery being there at the right time. So sad to get so far and end up under such circumstances. I haven't chased a birth certificate for Henrietta as yet but a FIBIS transcription of ''Bengal Marriage Indexes 1865-1873 cites the marriage of Arthur and Ellen Young 1872, Bengal. The same can be said of the "Bengal Presidency Index of marriages", so I feel that Young is most likely the correct surname.
Finally, your lead to the Ballincollig website has proved most fruitful, in so far as I now have direct contact with Mike A. and shall be communicating with him very soon!
Your assistance has been invaluable, thank you so much (I'm sure Mike A. will concur!).
Kindest regards, Mike B.
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Hi to all my previous RootsChat friends and to a new cousin, "Embryo"! I can't believe that it is actually 6 years since I posted on this site - but a lot has happened in that time (including a heart attack and a multiple by-pass op...!) ::)
Daisy - still going strong, I see! Thank you so much for all your valuable help.
I'm now in direct touch with "Embryo" and have a lot more information about our mutual great-grandfather, but your post on the marriage of Arthur and Ellen has REALLY got my interest! To explain - I have always understood that my grandfather (Arthur Harding jnr, born in Ballincollig) and my grandmother, Minnie Allsop, were first cousins. For that to have been the case, Arthur snr's father's name must have been "James Harding" (Minnie's grandfather).
But then I got a copy of the certificate of Arthur and Margaret Long's marriage in Cork which blew that idea out of the water because it shows Arthur snr's father's name as also being "Arthur", occupation "Law Clerk".... :'( I have been totally unable to get any further because of this anomaly, but I have often wondered if in fact there was an error in the marriage record, not only in the name, but also in the occupation shown of "Law Clerk" - that has come right out of left field and doesn't seem to match any other occupational information that I can find about the Harding family. Now if in fact Arthur's father's name WAS "James" then my search is back on the rails again!
BTW, my RootsChat name is now "Mike A1" because I have changed my email address since 2006 and had completely forgotten any previous passwords, so I found it impossible to re-register under "Mike A" because that name was already "taken" ::) It was just easier to register as a new poster.....! (If the administrator can suggest how I can get back to being just "Mike A" that would be good!).
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Hi Mike,
please post a short comment here, twice, so that you can use the PM facility.
We can then help you to retrieve your older account.
regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reply!
Mike
:)
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for the reply!
Mike
:)
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Picking up this thread again:
Re Eliza Harding - she was born in Ballincollig on July 24 1864 (I have her birth certificate) but cannot find any further information about her. I have only found 15 death records for “Eliza Harding” and the only one of those that might fit is the death of a child named Eliza Harding in 1866 in Millstreet, County Cork. The birth year is given as “about 1863” and age as “3”. As I have been unable to find any other reference at all to Eliza, it may well be that she died at an early age.
Arthur Harding Jnr was born on May 9 1866 in Ballincollig, and was raised in Ireland until his early teens. (My brother John recalled that he had a strong Irish accent and “was a nice bloke”)). He apparently came to England for work when he was about 15 years of age - on Census night 3 April 1881 he was boarding with Robert and Jane Higgs at 9 Frogmore Street, Wandsworth, London, occupation “Labourer”.
Arthur Jnr married Minnie Margaret Allsop on March 7 1896, in Dartford, Kent. Minnie’s grandfather was James Harding and I understand that Arthur and Minnie were first cousins, which would make James also Arthur Harding Snr’s father. However, Arthur Harding Snr and Margaret Long’s marriage certificate records his father’s name also as “Arthur”, occupation “Law Clerk”. This doesn’t seem to fit any of the facts as I understand them and could be an error. As per my last post, if "James Harding" was in fact Arthur Snr's father, then my search is back on track!
Margaret Elizabeth Harding (my mother) was born in Wilmington, Dartford on April 21 1897 and the 1901 census records Arthur, Minnie and Margaret aged 3, living at 10 Dorset Terrace, Wilmington, Dartford, Kent.
Arthur Harding continued working as a labourer and my mother told me that at one stage when they were living in Hendon, Arthur had had to walk to St Albans for work. My Aunt, Edith Rose Harding, was born in 1907 at Fleetville, St Albans, Hertfordshire. This seems to coincide with a period when Arthur had found work at St Albans.
In 1911, Arthur, Minnie, Margaret (my mother) and Edith Harding were living at 36 Borthwick Road, West Hendon, London NW9. (1911 census). Arthur’s occupation is given as “General Labourer”.
Arthur died in Colindale on March 15 1942. I was born on 9 February 1942 and I remember my mother telling me that Grandad did not get to see me before he died (I don’t know why, as we lived close by in Hendon). Apparently at that time he was a doorman at the local picture house and he had walked across the road to post a letter, turned around and then simply dropped dead from a heart attack. This story was well-known in my family and is particularly remembered because my mother died on Feb 11 1964 in strangely similar circumstances – she had just posted a letter and was talking to a friend near the post box when she collapsed and was taken to the nearby Colindale Hospital with a brain haemorrhage and died a few hours later.
Minnie Harding died on January 7 1954 aged 87. Interestingly, she died while living with Edith in a small apartment block that had been built directly opposite the Colindale cinema and close to the spot where Grandfather Harding died after posting a letter. In her later years Minnie suffered some dementia and confusion, but I remember visiting her that day after school and her mind was quite clear. Aunt Edith told me to say goodbye as I probably wouldn’t see her again and sure enough she died later that day.
Edith had a very late marriage to James Waller in 1963. She had suffered from very bad arthritis from an early age and found walking very difficult. I don’t know what happened to her after that, or when she died.
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Hi, my 4th Great Grandfather, Paul Harding, finished as a Bombardier / Corporal within The RA here. Unfortunately after an unfortunate accident during gun drill in 1834 he obtained a ruptured groin. He faced a court martial as a consequence! He & his family were moved back to Woolwich. - he was found not guilty & discharged from the RA, where he had served for 27rs including the Battle of Waterloo.
Harding had also served (accompanied) for 9 yrs in Colombo, Ceylon.
If you have any additional info on my Paul Harding (esp) photos it would be appreciated.
Perry
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Hello Perry,
Sorry, but I have no information at all on your 4th great-grandfather, Paul Harding. I have not heard his name before in my line, so it may be a completely different family.
Best of luck with your search.
Regards from Oz,
Mike A
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Mike A & Embryo (and all contributors) - thanks for the information on this thread. We may be related too!
Arthur Harding Snr is my 2nd Grt Grandfather (I am on the Ellen Young branch) and can corroborate the toll keeper parts of your story.
There is a family story that suggests a military link to the De Trafford family, perhaps that Arthur worked as a gate keeper for the De Traffords on his return from India. I haven't been able to prove that though.
Apparently my Grt Grandmother (Lilian Harding) used curry powder in her soups quite a bit, even though I don't think she actually was out in India (born in Irlam).
TTFN.
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Hello Harding hunters, I have finally received a copy of Henrietta Harding's birth certificate (b. 8 Mar. 1884). This cites Ellen's "former" name as being McGuire and Arthur's occupation as "sadler", despite him being the Collector of Tolls in Irlam at that time! From further research on "familysearch.org" (ref. M75023-1, India-EASy, 499048), I found a marriage record for Arthur Harding and Ellen.Two anomalies arise from this record: 1. bride's name Ellen Goony (father: Henry McGuire) and 2. Arthur's father's name being James Harding. On Arthur's marriage certificate with Margaret Long (13 April 1863), Arthur's father is cited as "Arthur Harding, Law clerk". Ellen's "former" name of McGuire, would suggest that she was previously married, or her mother re-married. Sources noted elsewhere on this thread, name her as Ellen Young and Ellen Gooney! "familysearch.org" (ref. B39315-5, India-EASy, 499033) records the death of a John Cooney, 19 Feb. 1869, Sergeant - Royal Artillery, in Saugor, Bengal, India.............a tenuous possibility?
embryo
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8th Bde, R A in Ballincollig 1864-1866 at least with a gunner Arthur Harding Born Croydon Surrey c 1835.
Anne
I am researching Ballincollig Military to 1922, Information always welcome.
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1864-1866 in Ballincollig, Harding Arthur collar-maker/Gunner /driver 8th Bde, RA age in Ballincollig 31, 33 Born ?1835 at Croydon, Surrey WO10/2514; WO10/2515; WO10/2516; WO10/2516: WO10/2517.Battery records of the Royal Artillery, 1859-1877, Vol 2, compiled by Lt. Col. M.E.S. Laws, OBE,MC, RA(retd), F.R.Hist. S. Pub. Royal Artillery Institution, Woolwich, 1970:
I am not sure that this will add much to your information. You seem to have a comprehensive work in place.
Anne :)