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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lincolnshire => England => Lincolnshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jmedwards on Monday 17 April 06 18:03 BST (UK)
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Any help appreciated on finding the birth/marriage of Edward Winter. Born approx 1817 in Leybourne but living in Hull from 1861 census until death in 1881.
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The place is LEGBOURNE
These were all children of Edward and Muril (sic) WINTER - the only WINTERs christened at Legbourne.
MARY WINTER Christening: 04 JAN 1816 Legbourne, Lincoln, England
WILLIAM WINTER Christening: 28 NOV 1826 Legbourne, Lincoln, England
ELIZA WINTER Christening: 21 MAR 1822 Legbourne, Lincoln, England
JOHN WINTER Christening: 19 OCT 1820 Legbourne, Lincoln, England
ISAAC WINTER Christening: 09 MAR 1824 Legbourne, Lincoln, England
It would be surprising if Edward was not their son too, given that the father's name was Edward.
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Thanks Geoff, I will see if I can follow that lead. It does seem a likely source as you say. I will let you know how I get on. Cheers, June
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1841
639-17/45
Monks Dyke Rd, Louth
Murill WINTER 55 Widow
Isaac 16 MaleServ
Eliza 18
John 20 Lab
1851
Maiden Row, Louth
Murial WINTER 66 Charwoman, Hatton
William 24 AgLab, Legbourn
Possible baptism-
Emurial TRUSSEY 27 Dec 1790 Hatton, dau of Wm and Elizabeth. A possible brother baptised as John TUSSEY 1792 Hatton ... or FUSSEY.
Possible marriage of Wm FUSSEY to Elizabeth RANBY 10 Nov 1789 East Barkwith.
John FUSSEY bap 1 Nov 1796 West Barkwith
Wm FUSSEY bap 7 June 1801 Legbourne
Nice to see the FUSSEYs made it to Legbourne anyway! :D
Edward WINTER buried Louth 28 Dec 1829 age 53 ... perhaps the Edward WINTER bap Louth 17 June 1776.
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Edward Winter mar Murie Fussey 28/12/1814, Legbourne (Louthesk deanery marriages).
Thanks Geoff for a couple of Fussey variations that I hadn't picked up. The "possibles" are high probables.
The much misspelled Muriel christian name goes back to Muriel Hildyard who mar William Fussey in Hull in 1761 , then farmed some Hildyard leased land in Goxhill/ East Halton, before moving south.
June , I have good data on the Fusseys ,if you ever need it.
John
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June - I am researching a Winter family tree for someone, and have got back as far as Edward. As you say, the 1961 census shows George with Edward and Maria as parents - have you found their marriage as I'm stumped by it?? Also, I can't find George (Scott) Winter's birth (about 1844?) as their son.
Look forward to what you may have .... Derek
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Also, I can't find George (Scott) Winter's birth (about 1844?) as their son.
Look forward to what you may have .... Derek
Welcome to RootsChat Derek :)
I think George was a SCOTT ...
1851
Saxons Entry, Low Gate, Hull
Harry? SCOTT 41 Coal Lab, Louth
Maria 29 Alford
John 13 Louth
George 8 Louth
1841
Louth
Harvy SCOTT 30 Lab
Maria 20
John 4
Marriage 2 May 1836 at Louth
Harvey SCOTT to Maria ATKIN
Births Sep 1843
SCOTT George Louth 14 4[6_]1 Can't read page number :(
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Hi Derek, That came as a bolt from the blue but here's what I know. Maria and Edward Winter as far as I can see were not married. I believe that she was the sister of Sarah Day nee Atkin.
Maria was married to Harvey Scott and living in Hull at 84, Dixon's entry on the 1851 census. They had two boys John 13 and George 8.
In 1861 she is shown as living at 20, New George st,with Edward Winter, George and Sarah Day (her neice). Sarah Day gave birth to a daughter in August 1861 and she was registered as Maria Winter Day? Could have been Edward's child? Sarah then disappears.
Edward shows up on 1871 census at Dagger Lane, Hull with new wife Sophie nee Wilkinson. They married 1st quarter of 1861 but must have been after the census in April.
Maria is living in Saltor's court in 1871, her surname is down as Scott and she has her neice Maria Day living with her.
George Scoot Winter married Sarah Taylor and had two children living with him at 4, Marsh st, Hull on the census for 1871
I haven't done any for ages so I think your jogging my memory might start me off again! Good hunting, June
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Thanks, June - I had just reached the same conclusion! About the non-marraige, that is... Thanks also for tracking Maria a bit further - obviously gone back to Scott after the separation. George is 3 generations up from the person who is the start of my searching - Jess.
I will put her onto rootschat as she may well want to look at this area more;
Cheers Derek. (Thanks also to Geoff for starting this bubble).
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You are most welcome. Maria Winter Day was my great grandmother. She married Thomas Henry Oldridge/Aldridge. He had been brought to Hull as a baby by his mother who was widowed one month before he was born. She had taken up with a chap called John Slipper and for many years he had been known as Thomas Henry Slipper. It takes some detective work this genealogy doesn't it? Not easy for me as I live in Cyprus!
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Hi All - looks like the dice may have just rolled in my favour.
George Scott Winter was my 2nd great-grandfather and his history has been a pain in the butt ever since I started researching my family tree about 10 years ago.
I actually have a copy of the birth certificate for George (father Harvey Scott and mother Maria nee Atkin) - but never felt it was correct as there were too many loose ends that I couldn't confirm.
Just so you know I am in Australia so the internet is my main source of research, as well as being a member of the EYFHS. I have just spent another hour this morning trying to find a marriage certificate for Maria and Edward - no need now - as part of my continual research on George's past.
On George's marriage certificate (June 1868) to my (2x great-grandmother, Sarah Jane Taylor) he calls himself George Scott Winter and notes his father as Edward. They had at least 7 children and all were registered as Scott Winter (some with hyphen however most without).
An interesting side note is that when George married Sarah Jane Taylor the wedding certificate states he was a widower. I have a copy of his (June 1862) marriage certificate to Ann Maria Hill, again he calls himself George Scott Winter and notes his father as Edward Winter. The big problem I have with this is that I can't find any death details for Ann Maria, and haven't been able to track down any births (too many to choose from, gets a little expensive).
It is interesting that, if you are correct in that Maria and Edward never married that George took on the Winter name.
Would be happy to share any information or combine forces to research!
Regards
Lez
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Lez - I have a copy of the 68 M cert for George and Sarah Jane, since my friend Jess is descended from one of their kids - John. Interesting that you say "at least 7 kids" since my census search had only turned up 5 of them? I take it you are down from one of the others than John? The news of the non-marraige of Edward and Maria puts a new spin on the tree, I guess; Edward thru father Edward takes the Winter name back - but the blood-line now goes back thru Harry/Harvey Scott as father. I can't find anything earlier on him - presumably someone reads this as a call for help and comes up with info. if I/we are lucky ? (again).
Derek
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but the blood-line now goes back thru Harry/Harvey Scott as father. I can't find anything earlier on him - presumably someone reads this as a call for help and comes up with info.
This (although it's a submitted IGI record) - looks about right http://tinyurl.com/2w8yvz2
FreeReg has it too http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=5847910
and a marriage http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=1891743 (my index says he was a widower, perhaps 1st marriage 1794 Louth to Sarah KEITHLEY)
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Hi Derek - no I travel down through John Henry Scott Winter, same one (?) as Jess - which son of John Henry Scott Winter does Jess come from?
When I noted George and Sarah had at least 7 kids I may have led you astray. I know there is definitely 7 (I have copies of the birth certificates) but there is also a reference to another which I haven't been able to confirm.
My mother was born a Winter so it will be interesting when I tell her it's not quite correct. Is there any actual way to find out if Edward Winter did actually adopt George and John Scott?
I have another family member joining the same line in 1898 where one of the Census records show one of the children as "adopted daughter" - and I have managed to get a copy her original / correct birth certificate, showing her actual birth mother, but don't know where to start for getting records on adoptions (or if you can).
The non-marriage of Edward and Maria means I know need to travel in a different direction - back to Louth I guess! Thanks for the links Geoff-E I will investigate and let you if I come to the same conclusion.
Lez
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Lez - for George and Sarah census only gives (Hannah, Anne, Rose, John H, George S) - from where did you get the others?
Jess' s father was John William - your mum is down from Victor or Leonard, I presume?
Have you had fun going back thru Jonathan Wood the Master as well? (Master of sea-going vessel or canal barge, I wonder?)-(also Akeroyds). Where in Oz are you, by the way?
Regards..... Derek
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Hey Derek
For George and Sarah there are (and in birth order):
Anna Maria (may also be know as Hannah)
Rose
John Henry
Amelia
George
Alice
Lily
I have birth certificates for all of them.
Joan William Winter is my mother's uncle - John Henry's children are:
Emmanuel Victor
John William
Leonard
Jane Elizabeth
Edward
Mum's dad is Edward
For John William, my Mum mentioned that her Uncle Bill and Aunt Florence had between 3 and 5 kids, and have only been able confirm 4 - I would take it that Jess is the missing child. If we are on the right / same level this would make Jess and Mum 1st cousins. can you confirm? If so maybe we should connect them up - I've already been able to do this for mum on her maternal side.
Yes the Wood's and the Akeroyd's (Ackroyd or Akroyd) have at times also driven me mad - there are still many "missing" links I have to work on and not enough time. Over the last couple of years I have spent a lot of time on my mother's maternal side, and only last weekend found connections back to the 1870's with Australia and New Zealand.
I live in Clovelly (Eastern Suburbs, Bondi way) about 7km from Sydney city.
Lez
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Hi Lez; we almost need direct email for some exchange of data! The 1911 census shows the first 4 and a fifth: George Harry, who is shown as about 1 - and deceased for the census. Since Jess only knew of 4, I didn't look further! Edward I see is 1st Q 1912; I shall now have to question her, and also about her B + S, which I left off as I started at her - be in touch.....
Derek
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Lez - Further to that - yes, uncle Ted was forgotten temporarily, so we would be able to link up cousins!
Over to you as to how we do it - I take it that mum is still in UK??
Derek
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slight puzzle again - having worked out that Maria was with Edward but DIDN'T marry him - I wondered if she went to him because Harry had died, but can't initially find a death for him? Perhaps she just left him which might explain no marriage with Edward - but I can't find Harry on the 1861 census either?
Thank you for the help before, Geoff - we have now used email to start putting the cousins in contact.
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slight puzzle again - having worked out that Maria was with Edward but DIDN'T marry him - I wondered if she went to him because Harry had died, but can't initially find a death for him?
He was Harvey (not Harry) - I wonder who this was (in Wales), he ought to be in the 1861 census
Deaths Jun 1861
SCOTT Harvey Holywell 11b 219
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Geoff_E - your post of of 17/09/2009 has
Marriage 2 May 1836 at Louth
Harvey SCOTT to Maria ATKIN
I've searched all over the web - as it is somewhat difficult to get to any of the historical societies or local libraries from here in Australia - on how to get Louth records but can find nothing .
As George Scott Winter was my 2 x ,great grandfather can you tell me where you got the information from or where I can get a copy of the parish records from.
Thanks Lez
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FreeReg is the simplest to find http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=468012
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Thanks for that Geoff-E - I'll have to use it for some other records that I have been stuck on.
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For any future researchers: further investigation proves that Harvey Scott was jailed to three months hard labour for bigamy.
Newspaper articles of the time - 1861 / 1862 - mention the court case and in doing so confirm
1 ) Harvey Scott married Maria Atkin(son) in Louth in early 1836
2 ) They had at least three sons John, Matthew and George [need to confirm Matthew's details and that he did soon die after birth]
3 ) 1851 Census - Kingston-upon-Hull shows Harvey, Maria, John and George (males all from Louth and Maria from Alford)
4 ) 1861 Census - Sculcoates - Maria now showing with surname of Winter - Edward Winter [head of family] - Maria born in Alford, also son George Winter (born Louth) and niece Sarah Day from Louth
5 ) Oct 1861 Harvey Scott married Harriet Ann Eden
6 ) Court case starts from Jan 1862
7 ) Court case details (as per Hull newspaper) states that Harvey said he had been a widow for 21 years but then later details that Maria had been living another man (Winter) for 23 years
8 ) The 06th March 1862 "Assizes and General Gaol Delivery held at the Castle of York" shows Harvey Scott charge with bigamy and sentenced to 3 months hard labour.
At this stage there does not seem to be any actual marriage record for Maria Atkin(son) Scott to Edward Winter and I don't know how to go about finding out if Edward Winter did actually adopt George Scott, nor what happened to his older brother John - something else to keep me busy.
Added to this George Scott Winter seems to have followed somewhat in his parent's footsteps as he married Ann(e) Maria Hill of Yarmouth in 1862 in Hull; can't find any births for them or that she died however in 1868 George Scott Winter married Sarah Jane Taylor and begat all the Scott-Winter's.
Some interesting times ahead.
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Burial 3 Aug 1841 Louth, Matthew SCOTT (inf)
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Thanks for that Geoff-E, already using that info as a started I have requested copies of Matthew's birth and death certificates from the GRO just to confirm I have the right details / person / relation - takes 3 to 4 weeks to get here to Aus. so just have to wait and see.
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I wonder who Harvey's "wife" in 1861 was ... Sarah 35 Louth ;D
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Yes - Sarah is on my list of investigations - however I assume she is the women he was living with prior to his 3 month courtship and subsequent marriage to Harriet
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Have you found Harriet EDEN in 1861?