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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lincolnshire => England => Lincolnshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: clairenorman39 on Tuesday 11 April 06 09:39 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I really am stuck with a Gt Gt Grandmother of mine. Her name was Dorothy Robinson and she was born abt 1845 in Gainsborough, Lincolnshire (according to census results). Her father was Frederick George Robinson B 1821 in Gainsborough.
I cannot find Dorothy or her father in the 1851 census and by the 1861 census, Frederick has been widowed and is living with his sister in Peterbro. Dorothy has been to prison and is in the west riding reformatory for naughty girls!
At the time of admission to the reformatory, Dorothy was living with an aunt - Ellen Broomfield in Masbro (1859).
So I presume her mother had died before then.
Any help with this quandry would be really appreciated.
Many thanks
Claire
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Not much help I'm afraid.
1851 census HO107 2120 folio 189
Bridge Street Gainsborough Lincolnshire
Anne Robinson 44 Rotherham, Yorkshire, Head Unmarried Nurse
Ellen Robinson 21 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Sister Unmarried Dressmaker
Rebecca Robinson 29 Beckingham, Nottinghamshire, Sister-in-law Married labourer's wife
Clara Robinson 1 Scrooby, Nottinghamshire, Niece
Unfortunately this appears (from the 1861 census) to be the wife and child of William Robinson born Gainsborough circa 1819.
The sister Ellen appears on the 1861 census as Broomhead
RG9 3489 folio
12 ? Walk Sheffield Yorkshire
William Broomhead 25 Masbrough, Yorkshire, Head Married Filler
Ellen Broomhead 28 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Wife Married Dressmaker
Joe Robinson 45 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Lodger Unmarried Cabdriver
I can see older brother Joseph in Gainsborough - a servant on the 1851 census but as well as Frederick I can't find brother William.
Regards
Valda
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Here they were in 1841
634-4/25
Chapel Yard, Gainsborough
Mary ROBINSON 56 Widow (NOT Lincs
Thomas 28 Ostler
William 23 Carpenter
Frederick 20 Lab
Ellen 10
Others born Lincs.
Possible burial of father
Joseph ROBINSON 12 March 1841 (67) Gainsborough
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Thanks for that.
I had found these census results previously and tried to build a bigger picture.
I cant even find Dorothys birth in the bmd index so I am hitting a brickwall.
How can some of these ancestors be so elusive?
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If a marriage did take place and there seems no evidence as yet from the civil registration one did - could it have occurred after Dorothy's birth, in which case you might be looking for a differently named child?
1851 census HO107 2120 folio 104
Whitehorse Yard Gainsborough Lincolnshire
Ellen Hasthead 49 Tetford, Lincolnshire, Head Married Mariner's wife
Henry Hasthead 16 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Son Upholsterer (app)
Elijah Hasthead 14 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Son
Ellen Hasthead 5 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Dorothy Hasthead 5 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Granddaughter
William Oxley 22 Morton, Lincolnshire, Son-in-law Married Blacksmith Journeyman
Jane P Oxley 21 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Daughter Married
Maryann Clements 18 Colchester, Essex, Lodger Dressmaker
In 1861 Ellen is a widow and servant in Market Rasen with her daughter Ellen. The surname is spelt Hursthead.
I actually don't really know what the surname was - as neither of these seems a surname in its own right. The birth registrations don't help for Ellen and Dorothy
Births Mar 1846
Hostkead Ellen Gainsboro 14 327
Hostired Dorothy Gainsboro 14 321
but I think the surname is probably spelt most commonly as Hosthead (but may be it is a variation of Horstead?)
Dorothy disappears after the 1851 census, though with her surname spelt in so many variations it is possible I missed finding her.
This is the only Dorothy I can see connected to Gainsborough but she is a bit of a long shot.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Yes I had tried to fit that together already too.
I cant add it all up though.
Dorothy married a Henry Crabb in 1871 in Peterbro and then lived in Essex. I have a copy of her marriage cert which names Frederick George as her father and the witnesses were Fred and also her cousin Clara Robinson.
I am starting to wonder whether she was an incestuos child - Fred and Ellen.
Incidently :( :(Dorothy named her female children Ellen and Elizabeth.
Claire
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Also I presume Ellen Robinson married William Broomhead but I can find no trace of the marriage either.
Oh what a puzzle!
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the surname is probably spelt most commonly as Hosthead
That's what it looks like on the BMD index image ... alphabetically, it's after HOPKINSON anyway.
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An illegitmate child can later be known by another surname especially if there was a subsequent marriage between their parents. Their births are ususally registered in their mother's maiden name.
Regards
Valda
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Hmm I will have to dig a bit deeper then.
Thanks for your help.
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FOUND IN 1861 CENSUS
DOROTHY ROBINSON BORN 1846 IN GAINSBOROUGH LINCOLNSHIRE IN
HOUSE OF REFUGE
WAKEFIELD
YORKSHIRE
ANY GOOD!!
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Annie,
I have the records for her admittance into the house of refuge. She stole a shawl and had two weeks in prison and then 3-5years in the reformatory/house of refuge.
Claire
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Have you got her birth certificate because cannot find birth for Dorothy.Wondering if she took her mothers maiden name , do you know what it was.Starting to annoy me as well that I can't find anything.It's a mystery!!!!!
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Annie
that is why I wrote about and gave the
Hostired Dorothy Gainsboro 14 321
birth reference as a possible reference because there was no Dorothy Robinson birth registration in Gainsborough (or Lincolnshire). However this Dorothy seems unlikely because I cannot see a subsequent marriage with Dorothy's known father, and fathers don't ususally take on their illegitimate children without a marriage involved somewhere. Illegitimate children tend to stay within their mother's family when a marriage doesn't occur. I also doubt this Dorothy's birth certificate would prove anything because even if she was born illegitimately (and at this point there is no evidence of that) her father would probably not be named on the certificate.
The interest in this Dorothy is she appears on the 1851 census and is the right age and has the right birthplace. She disappears after this census as Dorothy Robinson appears on the 1861 census. That is what the previous messages on the thread have all been about - trying to find out who "Dorothy's Robinson's" mother was and where she was on the 1851 census.
Claire, if she has not done so already, will probably need to check the Gainsborough baptisms (which don't seem to be on the IGI for this date) to see if either Dorothy appears. If both appear they cannot be the same person. Either way she should get a mother's first name if she finds a baptism and might be able to go on from there.
Regards
Valda
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As I said the image shows that Hostired is actually HOSTHEAD. I see there was a HOSTHEAD girl married before 1851.
The head of the HOSTHEAD family seems to have been William - he and Helen/Ellen had several kids baptised at Gainsborough - two with middle name Pepple/Popple.
I haven't found the family in 1841, just a couple of HOSTEAD servant girls in Gainsborough; also William (11) and Henry (7) HURSTHEAD with a HEMSWORTH family on Willoughby St.
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There is a marriage registration for a Frederick George Robinson in the registration dist of Doncaster, XXII, 75 for the qtr Jul-Sep 1849.
I realise that this may or may not be your Frederick, but I thought it was worth posting! On FreeBMD the only other person listed on the same details is a Sarah Ann Berry.
I too have tried to find the Hosthead (and variants) on the 1841 census, to see if there was another daughter, that may have given birth to Dorothy, but to no avail. There is the possibility that Dorothy is the illegitimate daughter of Jane Popple Hosthead, wife of William Oxley on the 1851 census. But as Valda has said this Dorothy seems to disappear after 1851.
Best of luck, Kath
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The thing is ,I have a Albert Lowis in all census up to 1891, then he appears as Albert Western in1891 but in 1901 he is back to Albert Lowis.His mother was unmarried when she had him and later married Albert Western but he must of taken on Westerns name and not been addopted,hense married as Lowis.It took me a while to work out,sorry I couldn't help you.
Happy hunting!!!!
Annie
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For what it is worth these seem the children baptised to William amd Ellen at Gainsborough
JANE POPPLE HOSTHEAD
Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Gainsborough, Lincoln
SUSANNA HUSTED
Christening: 12 NOV 1828 Gainsborough, Lincoln
WILLIAM HOSTHEAD
Christening: 03 JUL 1830 Gainsborough, Lincoln
HENRY HAWSTED
Christening: 30 JAN 1835 Gainsborough, Lincoln
WILLIAM HOSTHEAD
HELEN PHILLIPSON
Marriage: 12 NOV 1821 Gainsborough, Lincoln
You can have Ostead as a variant of the surname as well!
Susanna is the daughter who married in 1849 (It is true there is a Susannah Robinson born Gainsborough of the right age married to a Thomas Robinson on the 1851 census, but he was born Derbyshire and the couple are still together on the 1861 census).
Jane Popple Hosthead married in 1851.
On FreeBMD there is also a John Hosthead who married in Gainsborough registration district in 1838 (possibly baptism 1818 as Hoston).
You can see here the present coverage FreeBMD has of the civil registration through FreeBMD coverage charts
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/progress.shtml
Regards
Valda
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I see what you are getting at with the Hostheads as I have considered that myself. The thing is Frederick George Robinson (Dorothys father )was married as it says he is a widow on the 1861 census. I presume this was to Dorothys mother. She must have died before 1859 as I know from Dorothys admission record to the naughty girls school that she was by then living with Aunt Ellen Broomhead in Chapel Walk Masborough.
Its driving me potty this one. I dont live anywhere near Lincolnshire so dont know when I can view records.
Is it poss that she was born elsewhere and just presumed it was Gainsborough?
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It only says on C19th certifcates what people told the officials. I research a one name study of a sufficient size that I have birth certificates of people who are being registered as legitimate when I can prove they were illegitimate. I have marriage certificates of illegitimate people fabricating legitimate father's names. I even have marriage certificates of people marrying bigamously claiming they were widowed.
Because Frederick George says he was a widowed on his second marriage unfortunately does not make it true. He might be widowed he might not. At this point there is no evidence either way. However it is also perfectly possible his first marriage was as Frederick Robinson and he didn't use his second name, or worse just as George. People often just used their first or sometimes second name when they married. It is also possible that even if Dorothy was born in Gainsborough her birth might have been registered elsewhere as you had 6 weeks to register the birth. It was compulsory to register births but there was no punishment for not registering a birth until 1875 so some births just were not registered...but then there is no census either and there still is the child doppelganger who appears to diappear after the 1851 census.
It may be a waste of time checking the Gainsborough baptisms and you might have to employ someone to do it (or request a lookup in the registers on Rootschat, or join Lincolnshire FHS and see if they have transcripts or offer lookups - many societies do).
Regards
Valda
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I wonder if there is a birth record for Dorothy Hosthead or whatever name it was?
Maybe I will go and check the bmd records.
Yes - I had seen the marriage for Fred to Sarah Berry - I should look her up too.
Thanks all of you joining in on the hunt.
Claire.
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The details of Dorothy's birth registration (mistranscribed by FreeBMD) are on the thread. If she was illegitimate her father's name unfortunately is likely to be left blank on her birth certificate.
I believe the name on the birth index for Dorothy is Hosthead checked by Geoff.
Sometimes vicars on baptisms can be more informative.
Regards
Valda
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because there was no Dorothy Robinson birth registration in Gainsborough (or Lincolnshire).
It's worth noting that although Gainsborough is in Lincolnshire, it's right on the county boarder with Nottinghamshire - there may be something in East Retford (a favourite in my family!)
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On the Bmd search, these are the births that come up for Dorothy Robinson around the time:
Newtle Tyne 1844
Gateshead 1844
Settle 1845
Garstang 1845
Teesdale 1846
Cockermouth 1847
I have no idea about the locations of these places. Any suggestions please?
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On the Bmd search, these are the births that come up for Dorothy Robinson around the time:
Newtle Tyne 1844
Gateshead 1844
Settle 1845
Garstang 1845
Teesdale 1846
Cockermouth 1847
I have no idea about the locations of these places. Any suggestions please?
All "up north", all 100 miles away or more.
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On the Bmd search, these are the births that come up for Dorothy Robinson around the time:
Newtle Tyne 1844
Gateshead 1844
Settle 1845
Garstang 1845
Teesdale 1846
Cockermouth 1847
I have no idea about the locations of these places. Any suggestions please?
If you're unsure where somewhere is, try looking up on a map engine, I find Google-maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/) is pretty good. You can also have two places mapped to see how close they are.
Also, have you tried all the shortenings for dorothy? Dorothea, Dorothy – Dol, Dolly, Dora
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Newcastle on tyne = Northumberland
Gateshead= Durham
walking ditance of each other
Settle
Garstang
Cockermouth all =Cumberland now Cumbria
Teesdale =Durham[part of ]some Teeside
audrey
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Well, Ive been busy looking for the mysterious Dorothy Horstired/Hoshead or whatever variation there may have been.
No luck. I cant find her at all.
I wonder whose child she was?
I cant find a death or marriage for her either.
Her name could have been different and the enumerator just didnt ask?????????????????/
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what date have you got for Dorothy
audrey
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Born 1845 Lincolnshire and appears in the 1851 census and then vanishes and my Dorothy Robinson appears!
There is no record of my Dororthy Robinsons birth but there is of Dorothy Hostireds!!!
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I have done a full search omitting the name Dorothy in Case it was a middle name using the father Fredrick although there is many births in Lincon with a father Fredrick various mothers there is non around 1840s that would fit also searched out of County for Dorothy but again nothing it looks like Dorothy is a name used by the Robinsons in previous generations
audrey
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This one is driving me mad. I wish I could just find Frederick in 1851 census or Dorothy.
I wonder who Dorothy Hostheads parents were?
Thanks Audrey for helping.
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sorry but the last Hosthead on hear in Lincon is 1837
audrey
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Can this Dorothy Hostead or variation really be Dorothy Robinson?
It seems a long shot but I will keep investigating it.
Maybe I should order her birth certificate even if just to rule it out. If it doesnt name the father at all then I may be on to something. If it does then bingo anyway and if it names someone else - at least it rules this Dorothy out.
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I have just looked at Lincolnshire Archives page and see there are no records for Gainsborough. Do you think this is because they havent been released by the churches?
What can I do ?
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I coudn't see Dot in the baptism register ... Ellen (dau of Wm and Ellen HOSTHEAD) was born and bap 29th Jan.
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What do you all make of this. i found this and thought soundex wise it is worth a look.
Searching for the marriage of frederick George Robinson born 1821 Gainsborough...........as i cant find Dorothys mother......
Gainsborough March 1845 marriage..vol 14 p398...Frederick John Dobson/Dabson
Now is that completely barking mad of me or worth a shot?
Comments welcome please.
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I did say it was driving me potty!
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1841 census HO107 634/2 folio 30 page 8
Beast Market Gainsborough Lincolnshire
Barzillai Williamson 30 Lincolnshire Butcher
Mary Williamson 35 Lincolnshire
Frederick Dobson 20 Lincolnshire Butcher
Regards
Valda
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I have now taken the step (after much thought) of ordering Dorothy Hostired's birth certificate, in hope that it will be my Dorothy.
I have searched and searched the 1851 census for Frederick to no avail.
I cant find him in 1871 either.
So fingers crossed I shall have some luck.
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Hi Claire,
At least when you get the cert you will know whom the mother is or rule this Dorothy out! Anyway here is your Frederick in 1871 (If you use Ancestry, it is transcribed as Roberson):
Bright St, Peterborough - RG101518, Folio 12, Page 15
Frederick G Robinson, Mar, 50, Railway Messenger, Lincolnshire, Gainsboro
Elizabeth " , Mar, 50, , Northams, Peterborough
Regards, Kath
You must let us all know the outcome of Dorothy's birth cert!
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Thank you Kath,
Well done for finding him on the census.
I will of course keep you informed of any updates. I have to wait about three weeks now until Dorothy Hostired's birth certificate arrives.
Many thanks
Claire
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Incidently- i have just found a Dorothy Berry born in Gainsborough Sep 1849. I was thinking about a possible link to Sarah Berry - re the marriage of Frederick George Robinson to Sarah Berry in 1849!
There was a Sarah Robinson died in 1958 Gainsborough too!
I know from records that Dorothy's mother had died before 1859.
The only thing is Dorothys age is consistent on every census, birth being 1845/6
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From FreeBMD
Deaths Sep 1852
BERRY Dorothy Gainsbro 7a 400
Regards
Valda
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Yep Valda, I just spotted that too.
Grrrrrrrrrr
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Hi everyone,
I went and ordered Dorothy Hostireds birth certificate and it should have been arriving now but instead I received this email
Dorothy Hostired 1846 and ref no - no trace of this birth at the reference quoted.
How infuriating. I got the page number wrong!!!
Another four week wait now folks.
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Here I sit with Dorothy Hostired's birth certificate in my hot little hands.
Well........................
Mother - Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD (why spell it differently to the daughters?)
Father ................ Blank space.
So what can I do now? What do you all think please?
Shall I go searching further for Frances?
Could Dorothy Robinson have been born Hostired and then changed to Robinson?
Why would Frances not have named the father?
It is sooooooooo frustrating.
Thanks in advance
Claire
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As I've said a few times in this thread there was never anyone called HOSTIRED. This was an interpretation by the FreeBMD transcriber of what he/she saw in front of them. I looked at the image myself and decided the name was probably HOSTHEAD.
Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD was another of William and Ellen's children, baptised 12 July 1823 at Gainsborough. Her baptism does not appear on the IGI but is on the BIVRI2 disks. I can't see a marriage for her.
She (FEH) was a servant in 1851 for a THOMPSON family in Gainsborough.
Now I must go on holiday.
Bye
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Geoff ;D
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The rules on birth certificates in the case of illegitimate children and fathers' details can be found here
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/births.htm#COL4
Marriages Mar 1861
Hursthead Frances Elizabeth Gainsbro' 7a 830
Spindler William Gainsbro 7a 830
1861 census RG9 2409 folio 65
Hookman Street Gainsborough Lincolnshire
William Shindley 22 Tillingham, Lincolnshire, Head Married Sailor
Frances Shindley 33 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Wife
Charles Hoyland 11 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Son Waiter at railway (Charles Hosthead Shindley on 1871 census so the parents had been together obviously some time before they married - though Charles doesn't appear to be on the 1851 census)
Edward Hoyland 4 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Son
Births Sep 1849
HOSTED Charles Gainsboro 14 344
So I think this takes Dorothy 'Hostired' out of the equation but tracking her family could well be an example of why it is so hard to track your Dorothy.
I would still want to do a search or have one done for me of the Gainsborough baptismal register /s.
Regards
Valda
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Claire, You said that Dorothy's birthdate was consistently 1845/1846 on all censuses. The only one to which I have access is the 1881 (on FamilySearch - Dorothy CRABB) and there her age is given as 33 i.e. birthdate of ca 1848 ...
What was her age on other records (court and refuge records, marriage certificate, 1861 and 1871 censuses ...)
I am assuming(!) that Frederick George's parents were Joseph ROBINSON (probably the Joseph who died and was buried in Gainsborough in Mar 1841) and Mary GUEST who married in Rotherham, Yorkshire in 1805; a Joseph ROBINSON and a Mary had an Ann there b Dec 1805, bap Jan 1806 (fits with 1851 census record of Anne 44 b Rotherham, sister Ellen 21 b Gainsborough, sister-in-law Rebecca, and niece Clara - Clara a witness at Dorothy's wedding). From the 1841 census, and Joe's appearance in the 1861 census, we take it that Joseph and Mary also had (all in Gainsborough?) at least Thomas ca 1813, Joseph ca 1816, William ca 1818, Frederick George ca 1821, and Ellen ca 1831. Thomas seems likely to be the Thomas Guest ROBINSON who died in Gainsborough, Mar qtr 1850.
Just some thoughts.
Do the Dorothy birth records from Gainsborough have to be discarded.
Might Dorothy "Hostired" have been a child of Frances Elizabeth and Fred which William SHINDLEY wouldn't take on when he married Frances? He'd taken on Edward (perhaps his son?) and Charles; if the 1861 ages of William (22) and Charles (11) are correct, presumably William was not the father of Charles. And we don't have a death record for a Dorothy HOSTHEAD (however spelled) or a Dorothy ROBINSON ...
Might the Dorothy BERRY who died in Gainsborough in 1852 not have been the same as the Dorothy BERRY born there in Sep qtr 1849? Perhaps she might have been an older Dorothy BERRY after whom the 1849 Dorothy BERRY was named?
Then there's also Dorothy Diana GREEN born 1843 (and a Dorothy GREEN death in 1853) ...
Perhaps burial records might help.
And it would be good to find each Dorothy in the 1851? And to find Fred ... And Sarah Ann (BERRY) ROBINSON. Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD has been found as a servant in a THOMPSON family - presumably without either Dorothy or Charles ...
Incidentally Claire, if you can get to an LDS FHC the film of the Gainsborough parish church records seems to be listed in their catalogue so could be ordered in ...
JAP
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The National Burial index has coverage of Gainsborough up to the late C19th, beginning in 1813 and 1844 for the two parish churches. No Dorothys already listed.
The use of the surname Hoyland for the two sons on the 1861 census I think is significant. On later censuses they both used the surname Horsthead. William was dead by 1871 and Susannah was a widow.
Dorothy Hosthead was with her maternal grandparents in 1851. Men who don't marry women they have a child with, are rarely welcome at the women's family residence.
Regards
Valda
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Hi All,
Perhaps the unlikely still has to be considered given that the problem has not yet been solved? Although I suppose it is possible that Dorothy ROBINSON (daughter of Frederick George ROBINSON according to her marriage certificate) was never registered … But, if so, where is she in 1851?
If we hypothesize, just for a moment, that Dorothy HOSTHEAD (illegitimate) and Dorothy ROBINSON (same age, same birthplace) might still be one and the same, it is perhaps worth remembering that Grandma Ellen HOSTHEAD (who was looking after a 5yo granddaughter Dorothy HOSTHEAD in 1851) had been widowed (when?) some time between 1851 and 1861. She had apparently had to take up employment as a servant in Market Rasen, and she had her own daughter Ellen (same age as Dorothy) with her. Would an employer have accepted a granddaughter as well? And remember, if Dorothy HOSTHEAD and Dorothy ROBINSON are one and the same, Dorothy was a “naughty” girl. Perhaps Grandma HOSTHEAD had no choice but to find somewhere to place Dorothy (either because she couldn't take her to her place of employment, or because she was too "naughty") – if Dorothy's mother Frances Elizabeth wouldn’t/couldn’t take her, and if none of her HOSTHEAD aunts and uncles would/could take her (have they been checked out?), perhaps Grandma HOSTHEAD simply took her to the ROBINSONs, said something like 'here, it's your problem now, you sort it out', and departed for the job at Market Rasen with her own daughter … Yes, it is nothing more than a hypothetical scenario but doesn’t it have to remain a possibility until either (a) Dorothy ROBINSON is found before 1859, or (b) Dorothy HOSTHEAD is found in 1861 – or a death or marriage is found for her after her birth in 1846 and by 1861.
Sorry if I’ve missed something but, as I read the thread, the salient points are as follows (listing all possible Dorothy births in Gainsborough). And one of the most important missing pieces of the jigsaw is where Frederick George ROBINSON was in 1851.
1841
Frederick ROBINSON is living with his mother Mary in Gainsborough
1843 Jun qtr
Dorothy Diana GREEN is born in Gainsborough.
1846 Mar qtr
Dorothy “HOSTIRED” is born in Gainsborough. Mother is Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD (Frances is a daughter, b 1823 in Gainsborough, of William and Ellen HOSTHEAD).
Ellen “HOSTKEAD” is born in Gainsborough.
Geoff E found the birth/baptism (both 29 Jan) of Ellen HOSTHEAD, daughter of William and Ellen in the Gainsborough baptism register.
He did not find a record of a Dorothy HOSTHEAD in the baptism register.
1849 Sep qtr
Dorothy BERRY is born in Gainsborough.
Charles HOSTED is born in Gainsborough (almost certainly another child of Frances Elizabeth)
1849 Sep qtr
A Frederick George ROBINSON marries a Sarah Ann BERRY in Doncaster.
(Is this Fred from Gainsborough?)
1851
Dorothy “HASTHEAD”, 5, is living with her married grandmother Ellen in Gainsborough. Ellen has children aged 21, 16, 14, and (Ellen) 5 living with her.
Dorothy’s mother, Frances Elizabeth, is a servant elsewhere.
Frederick ROBINSON has not yet been found.
Dorothy GREEN has not yet been found.
Dorothy BERRY has not yet been found.
Charles HOSTHEAD has not yet been found.
Where are they?
1852 Sep qtr
A Dorothy BERRY dies in Gainsborough. (Is this the Dorothy BERRY born 1849?)
1853 Mar qtr
A Dorothy GREEN dies in Gainsborough. (Is this the Dorothy GREEN born 1843?)
1859
Dorothy ROBINSON is admitted to the West Riding House of Refuge in Wakefield – she was living with her Aunt Ellen (ROBINSON) BROOMHEAD (marriage not found) in Masbrough at the time of admission. This is the first time Dorothy ROBINSON has been sighted.
1861
Dorothy HASTHEAD’s grandmother Ellen (as HURSTHEAD) is widowed and is a servant in Market Rasen. She has her daughter Ellen with her.
There is no sign of a Dorothy HASTHEAD (where is she?).
Dorothy ROBINSON is in the House of Refuge in Wakefield, aged 15, born Gainsborough.
Frederick ROBINSON, widowed, is living with his sister (is this Anne?) in Peterborough.
Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD (now married) has her son Charles (as HOYLAND) with her; also another son Edward.
Cheers,
JAP
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As an illegitimate child called Hosthead and brought up in the Hosthead family, if none of that family were prepared to look after the child she would go straight into the workhouse. She wouldn't be suddenly dumped on the Robinson family (as their responsibility - which she legally wasn't) and acquire a Robinson surname - which legally she had no right to (though you can and could be known by any surname you chose), and then subsequently be placed by that family into the workhouse system. It is extremely rare that an illegitimate child's paternal family take up the responsibility for the child, unless a marriage at some point occurred between the parents.
Births don't get registered and people do get missed off or wrongly enumerated on censuses. It is perfectly possible that Dorothy Robinson has falled through both those cracks - no birth registration and the whole 'family' including her father missed off the 1851 census.
Surmising anything about the surname Robinson is very tricky because it is such a common surname. The 12th most common surname in the country, so you easily get coincidences like this even in Gainsborough and even with an extremely rare surname like Hosthead which I'm not sure even exists anymore.
ROBINSON, Thomas
Susannah HOSTHEAD
Marriage Date:31 Oct 1849 All Saints Gainsborough, Lincolnshire
Husband's Father: Thomas ROBINSON
Wife's Father: William HOSTHEAD
These Robinsons moved to Durham and from the later censuses it is apparent this Thomas was born in Derbyshire.
FreeBMD is of course incomplete for the period we are interested in so any of these Dorothys mentioned could have further entries in the civil registration - not just for the Gainsborough registration district - which doesn't just cover Gainsborough.
Gainsborough Registration District
Parishes in Lincolnshire (1837-1930):
Blyborough, Blyton cum Wharton, Brampton, Coates, Corringham, East Ferry, East Stockwith, Fenton, Fillingham, Gainsborough, Gate Burton, Glentworth, Grayingham, Greenhill and Redhill, Hardwick, Harpswell, Haxey, Heapham, Hemswell, Kettlethorpe, Kexby, Knaith, Laughton, Lea, Marton, Morton, Newton on Trent, Northorpe, Owston, Owston Ferry, Pilham Scotter, Scotton, Southorpe, Springhtorpe, Stow, Sturton by Stow, Thonock, Torksey, Upton, Walkerith, West Butterwick, Wildsworth, Willingham, Willoughton.
Parishes in Nottinghamshire (1837-1930):
Beckingham, Bole, Misterton, Saundby, Walkeringham, West Burton, West Stockwith.
All I know from the civil registration is these other possible Dorothy's had their births registered in Gainsborough registration district. I don't know that they were actually born in Gainsborough. e.g. 1851 census
Misterton Nottinghamshire
Dorothy Berry 1 Misterton, Nottinghamshire, Daughter of Thomas
and the Dorothy Green death registered in Gainsborough registration district in 1853 is possibly this woman.
West Stockwith Nottinghamshire
Dorothy Green 70 Harworth, Nottinghamshire, Head Widow
Gainsborough parish registers for baptisms have coverage on the IGI only until 1835, so whether Dorothy 'Robinson's' baptism did or didn't occur in the Gainsborough parish register is still unknown.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Naturally, as I'm sure you realize, I accept and fully understand everything you say.
The only point I'm trying to make is that we should not dismiss a possibility simply because it is rare or very unlikely - especially given the various very loose ends which haven't yet been (and may never be) tied up. Incidentally, I don't think that Dorothy ROBINSON was placed into the workhouse system by the ROBINSON family - Claire advised that Dorothy ROBINSON was imprisoned for two weeks for theft of a shawl followed by (part of the punishment?) 3-5 years in the West Riding House of Refuge.
As I understand it, Geoff E looked at the Gainsborough baptismal register and didn't (as I understand what he wrote) find a Dorothy HOSTHEAD or a Dorothy ROBINSON (he did find Ellen HOSTHEAD). He said he was off on holiday so perhaps on his return he will be able and willing to search out more information.
Regards,
JAP
PS: I am only too well aware - to my chagrin - of how common the name ROBINSON is! If anyone can find the origins of my Gggpa James Christie ROBINSON who married in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia in 1852 they will earn my undying gratitude. On birth certs of his children, James described himself as born in Exeter ca 1832 - but who knows. He is thought to have been a mariner and to have come to Australia ca 1850 - but who knows. His death has not been found.
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This is what Geoff says about his sources for Gainsborough baptisms
Her baptism does not appear on the IGI but is on the BIVRI2 disks. I can't see a marriage for her.
From Phillimores' Atlas and index of parish registers, coverage on the IGI appears to stop in 1835. On the BVRI disks I hold (second edition) though coverage of the marriage register goes further (1837-1896), for baptisms it is only 1813-1834. The coverage on the BVRI is of All Saints Gainsborough the original parish. However the National Burial index, besides All Saints also has coverage of Holy Trinity parish register from 1844 onwards.
'In 1842, there were five non-Anglican chapels and meeting houses in the township of Gainsborough. The Wesleyan Methodists built one in 1804, the Primitive Methodists in 1838. Other chapels included the Independents, Baptists and the Society of Friends.'
Apparently the Congregational chapel was built there in 1602.
Though anything is possible I always think it is better to explore the more likely before moving to the less likely. The absence of the more likely at this stage does not make the less likely any more likely becvause of that. Not finding something doesn't mean it is not there - merely we have not found it and at this point there is still one major source left to search.
If the birth or births, since there may have been siblings, has not shown in the civil registration, it does not mean it won't show in the baptismal register/s where there is still a chance a father might be named, or a second middle name might be given, which was never used again but will give us further clues. If there is a search of the Gainsborough baptismal registers it also gives the opportunity to look at Dorothy Hosthead's baptism as well, since again her father might be named. That might either confirm a connection or dismiss it.
I just think before exploring more unlikely possibilities through internet sources it is sensible to research the more straight forward option of the parish registers and keep focussed at this point on the possibility that Dorothy Robinson was born legitimately, or if she wasn't her parents married soon after. Otherwise on Frederick's second marriage we have to believe he lied when he said he was a widower, because he certainly didn't marry Dorothy Hosthead's mother which I originally hoped would be the case when we discovered her mother's name from her birth certificate and could therefore find her subsequent marriage. Yes it is possible Frederick married a woman who was not Dorothy's mother but why complicate it any further if as yet that is still a possibility.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Claire, yours is an interesting puzzle – but I’m frustrated by not having access to census records! Especially the 1851 census.
Of the known members of the ROBINSON family (presumed children of Joseph ROBINSON and Mary GUEST), the following have been found in 1851 as far as I am aware – Anne (b Rotherham 1805), Joseph (b Gainsborough ca 1816) and Ellen (b Gainsborough ca 1831).
Thomas (b Gainsborough ca 1813) probably died in 1850.
Still missing in 1851 are (at least) William (b Gainsborough ca 1818 – what are taken to be William’s wife Rebecca and daughter Clara are living with Anne and Ellen), and Frederick George (b Gainsborough ca 1821).
And Fred’s daughter Dorothy (b Gainsborough ca 1845) – unless, of course, she has already been found under another name.
It would be particularly good to find in the 1851 census the bride and groom from that tantalising 1849 marriage in Doncaster of a Frederick George ROBINSON with Sarah Ann BERRY the only other name on the page in FreeBMD. If they could be found (anywhere!) it would be a cheaper method of getting more information than buying the marriage certificate - which might be a last resort.
Searching might need to be creative – I recall that katherinem found Frederick G. ROBINSON in 1871 but mentioned that, in Ancestry, his name had been transcribed as ROBERSON.
I am in Australia so my mind automatically goes to Internet sources and to films of church registers which can be ordered in to LDS FHCs - which is why I mentioned that possibility.
So Claire, if you are in a position to look at Gainsborough church registers yourself, or if someone else can do so for you, that will be great but, if not, perhaps the LDS films would be worth pursuing.
For Gainsborough in the relevant time period, the FHL Library seems to have not a bad coverage (there are also earlier and later ones) - including the following:
* Parish registers for All Saints Church, Gainsborough, 1564-1948 / Church of England. All Saints Church (Gainsborough, Lincolnshire)
* Parish registers, 1844-1973 / Church of England. Holy Trinity Church (Gainsborough, Lincolnshire)
* Church records for Gainsborough and Gainsborough Circuit, 1838-1968 / Wesleyan Methodist Church (Bridge Road, Gainsborough, Lincolnshire)
Includes entries for places outside of Gainsborough that are in the Gainsborough Circuit, including, Torksey, Willoughton, Upton, Blyton, Knaith, Marton, East Stockwith, Stow, Sturton, Saundby, Misterton, Sturgate, Willingham, Worksop, Kexby, Retford, Somerby, Brampton, Heapham, Bole, West Burton, Walkeringham, Scotter, Saxilby
* Church records for Primitive Methodist Church, Gainsborough Circuit, 1843-1935 / Primitive Methodist Church. Gainsborough Circuit (Lincolnshire). (Baptisms 1843-1945)
Includes entries for places outside of Gainsborough that are in the Gainsborough Circuit, including, Sturgate, East Stockwith, Misterton, Kirton in Lindsey, Gringley on the Hill (Nottingham), Beckingham (Nottingham), Heapham, Springthorpe, Somerby, Marton, Morton, Kexby, Torksey, West Stockwith (Nottingham), Birmingham (Warwick), Retford, Hull (York), Walkeringham (Nottingham), Corringham, Willoughton, Sheffield (York), Bardney, Brampton, Upton, Horncastle, Aisby, Pelham, Leeds (York), London, Lincoln (city), Heckdyke, Willingham, Ingleby, Haxey, Saundby, Hartlepool (Durham), Grantham, Ollerton (Nottingham), North Wheatley (Nottingham), and Scunthorpe.
* Church records for Wesleyan-Methodist Chapel, Misterton, 1844-1968 / Wesleyan Methodist Chapel (Misterton, Nottinghamshire).
* Record of members, 1843-1922 / Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sheffield Conference (Yorkshire)
Hi Valda, I guess we’ll have to agree to have our own interpretations of the application of Occam’s Razor in this case ;) I’m keeping an open mind.
I take it that Geoff E was using more than one source for baptisms.
In one post Geoff referred to a baptism register saying “I coudn't see Dot in the baptism register ... Ellen (dau of Wm and Ellen HOSTHEAD) was born and bap 29th Jan” (he didn’t spell out that this was in 1846 i.e. was the Ellen who is recorded on FreeBMD in Mar qtr 1846 as HOSTKEAD; I note that there is also an Ellen HOSTHEAD – perhaps also a dau of Wm & Ellen? – born Mar qtr 1840 and death of an Eleanor HOSTHEAD Mar qtr 1842).
In a later post, referring to Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD (bap 1823), he referred to the BIVRI2 saying “Her baptism does not appear on the IGI but is on the BIVRI2 disks. I can’t find a marriage for her.”
Just for completeness (though, of course, the HOSTHEADs might be a complete red herring) ... You indicated earlier that Jane Popple (bap 1827), Susanna (bap 1828), William (bap 1830), and Henry (bap 1835) do appear in the IGI (which goes to 1835 though it doesn't seem to include Frances Elizabeth bap 1823).
Geoff mentioned that William & Ellen had several children (he didn’t name them) including two with middle name Pepple/Popple (name of the other one?) so presumably there was at least one we don't know about. We also know from the 1851 census about Elijah (his birth as Elijah Philipson HOSTHEAD Mar qtr 1838 is on FreeBMD) and Ellen (her birth being recorded as HOSTKEAD Mar qtr 1846 on FreeBMD).
Regards,
JAP
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Just to let you know that some marriage entries for Doncaster are now on www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk, and the marriage in 1849 is on there, which confirms that a Frederick G Robinson married Sarah A Berry at Doncaster Register Office.
Regards, Kath
P.S. I don't know if you are aware, that Doncaster and Rotherham (Masborough) are approx 12 miles apart, so I think it is feasible that this is your Frederick.
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I can offer these baptisms:-
WILLIAM HOSTHEAD Christening: 03 JUL 1830 Gainsborough, Lincoln, England
JANE POPPLE HOSTHEAD Christening: 21 JAN 1827 Gainsborough, Lincoln, England
from the IGI^^^
Frances Elizabeth 12 July 1823
William Pepple 18 June 1825
Jane Popple (as above)
and William (as above)
from BIVRI2 ^^^
A burial
28 March 1842 ... Sarah HOSTHEAD (2)
It may be of slight interest to find the baptism of a George Popple OSTEAD at Broughton, Lincs, the last of the 9 children John and Elizabeth OSTEAD had baptised there 1814-37.
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Hi Geoff E, the HOSTHEADs might, of course, be a total red herring.
The puzzle of Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON (said in censuses to have been born ca 1846 in Gainsborough, and said on her marriage certificate to be the daughter of Frederick George ROBINSON) still remains. The first time that Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON turns up is in 1859 when she was tried for stealing a shawl - at that time she was living with Fred's sister Ellen BROOMHEAD in Masborough.
I guess that the only reason the HOSTHEADs are being discussed at all is because a baby called Dorothy was born in Gainsborough in 1846 to an unmarried Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD - and it was thought that she just might be the same person as Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON. But nothing at all has been found to tie Dorothy HOSTHEAD (mistranscribed on FreeBMD as HOSTIRED) to Claire's Dorothy ROBINSON. Dorothy HOSTHEAD, aged 5, was with her HOSTHEAD Gran in 1851; unfortunately no later trace of Dorothy HOSTHEAD has yet been found so she can't yet be absolutely and completely ruled out.
An appropriate Dorothy ROBINSON still has not been found in the 1851 census.
And Frederick George ROBINSON (b ca 1821 Gainsborough) still has not been found in the 1851 census.
Also not yet found in the 1851 census is the Frederick George ROBINSON (might be the same person) who married Sarah Ann BERRY in Doncaster in 1849.
Claire was last on the thread on 6 June - I wonder whether she's found out anything else?
JAP
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JAP ... Yes you're right of course!
Dorothy Hasthead 5 Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Granddaughter
This is the only Dorothy I can see connected to Gainsborough but she is a bit of a long shot.
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Geoff,
On FreeBMD there are three records of babies named Dorothy registered in Gainsborough in the 1840s ...
Births, Jun qtr 1843
Dorothy Diana GREEN
(1853 Mar qtr, FreeBMD has the death of a Dorothy GREEN in Gainsborough - same person?)
Births, Mar qtr 1846
Dorothy HOSTHEAD (transcribed as HOSTIRED - illegitimate daughter of Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD)
Births, Sep qtr 1849
Dorothy BERRY
(1852 Sep qtr, FreeBMD has the death of a Dorothy BERRY in Gainsborough - same person?)
But Dorothy ROBINSON has not been found.
It would be good if Claire's puzzle could be resolved (or if further information could be found from censuses or from Gainsborough baptismal registers).
JAP
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Dorothy BERRY has not yet been found.
Probably the Dorothy BERRY age 1 in Misterton (Notts) in 1851.
daughter of John BERRY 34/54 (Misterton) and Elizabeth 33 (W Stockwith).
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Thank you all of you for trying your best to help. I have just sat and read your replies and am overwhelmed at the responses.
How well you have all done in trying to break the puzzle down into pieces and explore each of them.
I havent found out anything else as yet but have taken steps enquiring about ordering the film for Gainsborough.
I think it may be worth ordering the marriage cert for Fred and Sarah Berry. But does this mean that Ssarah was her mother? Not necessarily - this could be Freds second marriage or Dorothys mother could have been Frances Hosthead or someone else - anything is possible.
I will go now and check all the dates of birth she gives and ages on documents etc.
Many thanks
Claire
checked census dates and they are as follows
1851 Dot missing
1861 -1846
1871 -1846
1881 -1848
1891 -1845
1901 -1846
On her admittance to the refuge in 1859 she was aged 14 next birthday - this would make the birth around 1845-46
I will check her marriage cert when I get home
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On her marriage certificate she is 24 years old in September 1871 - that would put her birth at late 1846 or early 1847
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Hi Claire,
The dates for Dorothy's birth date seem to be pretty constant. I have trawled and trawled through the 1851 census but can find nothing for her or Frederick. I was hoping to find Sarah Ann Robinson, I had a quick check through the death records, she doesn't appear to have died before the 1851 census, but of course we don't know where they were living ???
I would be very surprised if Sarah was Dorothy's mother, as there is 5 to 6 years difference in the time frame between birth and marriage, but you never know, there could of course have been underlying reasons.
Personally I would be inclined to find out more about Sarah and Frederick's marriage as it could yield more clues (or muddy the waters further) i.e. it would be interesting to see what status Frederick is i.e. bachelor/widower.
You never know Frederick could have been one of those rare men back then, that was willing to take on his illegitimate daughter, it is still interesting that we can find no mention of Dorothy Hosthead after 1851, if only we could find Frederick in the 1851 :P
Regards, Kath
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Claire
you might want to think about contacting Lincolnshire Family History Society.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/lfhs/
and ask them whether any of their members undertake research. I find people recommended by family history societies are efficient and have a very good local knowledge (which makes them even more useful) and a good knowledge of what records are available to search - again that can be very profitable. They ususally are reasonable when it comes to charges as well.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda - I will do that today.
Alternatively it looks as though I may come up to Lincoln myself to spend a day searching. The disadvantage to this however is that geographically I am at a loss so maybe its best to pay someone else to have a look.
Many thanks
Claire
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Claire,
You can always ask local people to have a look for you - post a lookup request on the relevant board.
Hayley
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Update - Im still not much further ahead in my quest to find Dorothys mother but.........
I sent off in the end, for Frederick George Robinson and Sarah Ann Berry's marriage certificate.
The certificate names Fredericks father as Joseph - correct
It has Freds date of birth spot on and sats Fred was residing in Bawltry at the time of marriage -which is only 11 miles from Gainsborough.
It also says Fred is a railway clerk/messenger, which is true on all the census results.
He was a batchelor according to the certificate.
So this probably is my Fred but is Sarah Ann Berry, Dorothys mother??????
The marriage was 4 years after Dorothys birth.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Claire
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Can we have Sarah Ann Berry's information from the marriage certificate? If we can find out more about her, perhaps we can ascertain whether it is possible if she could be Dorothy's mother or not.
Regards
Valda
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Thank you for replying.
The marriage took place July fifteenth 1849.
Sarah Ann Berry was 24years old and a spinster.
She was living at Silver Street Doncaster.
Her father was William Berry and his occupation was listed as a cooper??
Witnessess were Caroline Berry and Thomas Morton.
The marriage took place in the Independent Chapel of Doncaster Union.
Many thanks
Claire
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Hi Claire,
Not sure what your question marks after 'cooper' imply. Are you not sure of the transcription or of the occupation? In case it's the occupation, a Cooper was someone who made barrels/casks.
... Do the Dorothy birth records from Gainsborough have to be discarded.
...
Might the Dorothy BERRY who died in Gainsborough in 1852 not have been the same as the Dorothy BERRY born there in Sep qtr 1849? Perhaps she might have been an older Dorothy BERRY after whom the 1849 Dorothy BERRY was named?
...
Perhaps burial records might help.
And it would be good to find each Dorothy in the 1851? And to find Fred ... And Sarah Ann (BERRY) ROBINSON. ...
Of course, Dorothy BERRY may well be the Dorothy BERRY, aged 1, found in 1851 in Misterton by GeoffE.
And the dob does not fit with later census records for Dorothy ROBINSON.
Purchase of the birth certificate of Dorothy BERRY b 1849 (more expenditure :'( ) should prove or disprove this.
Unless someone might have access to the registers of the Independent Chapel of Doncaster Union in case Dorothy was baptized there (with whatever surname)?
And Frederick George ROBINSON and wife Sarah Ann (nee BERRY) have (as far as I recall) still not been found in 1851. Nor has 'Dorothy'.
JAP
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I did track Dorothy Berry's birth down. Fred and Sarah were not the parents so we can rule that out I guess.
It seems strange that Dot Robinson always said her birthday was 1845-46 and was consistent in being born in Gainsborough.
Could she really have been born up to four years later?
In 1861 when she was in the reformatory in West Riding - I have the report - it only says her fathers name so mother must have died before then. Mind you the report aged Dorothy at 14 but did say she was small for her age.
it also says she was residing with her aunt Ellen in Wakefield at the time of offence commited. That was in Wakefield.
fred is found in later census's in Peterborough.
I wonder if he went there with Sarah or after she died?
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I am afraid, none of the following offers any clues, but I thought they could possibly help:
1841 census, Silver Street, Doncaster (H0107/1340/4, Folio 38, Page 10)
Ann Berry, 50, Laundress (All were born in county)
William Berry, 14
Edward " , 18
Carroline " , 19
Sarah Berry, 17
John Berry, 8
Sarah Applyard, 25
Also on the 1861 census mentioned earlier in the thread for William Broomhead and wife Ellen, there is a son on the next page by the name of Hennith, on FreeBMD (1858), it gives his full names as Hennith Charles Frederick Broomhead.
Regards,
Kath
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Dorothy Berry born 1849 Gainsborough died 1852 Gainsborough.
What are your thoughts on the liklihood of Sarah being Dorothy's mother?
Thanks
Claire
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Hi Claire,
For what it is worth; I think that the Dorothy that Geoff E, found in Misterton is the one that the birth and death relates to; as Misterton is listed as a sub district for the registration district of Gainsborough, so the Dorothy Berry's birth registration fits with the Dorothy Berry in Misterton on the 1851 (parents John Berry and Elizabeth).
This particular Dorothy disappears after 1851. On the 1861, all the other children are still at home with John and Elizabeth.
Regards,
Kath
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??? oh this Dorothy business drives me mad.
Im going to pay for someone at the archives to research and look up the registars for Dorothy.
Did people slip through the net and not get formally registered?
I thought it became law in 1837 to formally registar births?
Claire
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??? oh this Dorothy business drives me mad.
Claire
The above is understandable :P
I am afraid apart from deaths (needed for the burial), there were a lot of births and marriages not registered before 1875.
The law changed in 1875, whereby it became a serious offence.
Kath
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There is an unmarried Caroline Berry aged 39, born Doncaster and living at 18 Silver Street Doncaster on the 1861 census.
I can't see the Berry family in Silver Street on the 1851 census (I've checked down the street - as long as it appears only once on the census). If they were living on Silver Street in 1851 and have been missed off the census, then there is a chance that the Robinsons may have been residing with them, which would account for why they can't be found on that census.
Regards
Valda
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Well done Valda - and thank you.
I wonder if Sarah and Fred had anymore children?
Im trying to find Sarah Anns death - to see how and when she died.
I wonder if Sarah went to Peterborough with Fred - he was living with his sister Ann there in 1861.
He worked the railways - I should find out more about that I guess.
All the little pieces of the puzzle slot in but in this case the important pieces are missing.
How would people be missed off of the census? Just that they were out on the night or away?
Regards
Claire
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He worked the railways - I should find out more about that I guess.
Doncaster and Peterborough were both stations on the main line of the Great Northern Railway.
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Staff records for the Great Northern Railway will be held at The National Archives
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=124
Regards
Valda
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Thank you for that.
I am sure I am going to have to spend money now by paying a researcher to access the records office at Lincoln.
But if Dorothy is Sarahs baby - she may have been born in Doncaster??
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hello Claire
I don't know if you have already solved this puzzle, but there is evidence in the Lincoln, Rutland and Stamford Mercury newspaper from 1846 that Frances Hosthead applied for maintainence for her illegitimate child (presumably Dorothy) on Fred Robinson, labourer, at Gainsbrough Petty Sessions. You can find transcripts of the entries on the Genuki site. As Frances is an ancestor of mine, we are related!
Sammy
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Sammy
I cant thank you enough.
I am so pleased to have some confirmation.
I had given up on the trail. Well done and Thank you.
I would love some further info on Frances if you have it.
Its made my day.
Claire
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And can you post a link please for the genuki?
I am so so pleased.
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Wow, so pleased for you Claire :D
A big welcome to Sammy and what a brilliant first post.
Hopefully this link will work:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/bastardy_1846.html
Kath
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Wow, so pleased for you Claire :D
A big welcome to Sammy and what a brilliant first post.
Hopefully this link will work:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/bastardy_1846.html
Kath
Ditto from me :)
Thanks for the link Kath. By changing the year in the URL, you can get from 1843 to 1851 apparently.
Back to this thread - did we ever find Fred ROBINSON's origins? :o
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Geoff, do you seriously want to find Fred Robinson's origins ;D ;D
give it up man :) :)
go looking for Annie Moore, born Gosberton :) :) :) :) :)
Eilleen.
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go looking for Annie Moore, born Gosberton :) :) :) :) :)
I thought I'd solved that but you never believed me. Have another look. :-*
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Welcome Sammy - I'm always hoping that one day someone will join Rootschat who can solve the problem of my g.grandad in just the same way.
Liz
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Sammy333,
Welcome and Congratulations! And great that you are descended from Frances.
Claire,
This is great news – you must be so pleased! I’m pleased too - I was always a big fan of Dorothy HOSTHEAD being your Dorothy ROBINSON and sometimes I felt that people might be thinking I was pushing this theory too hard! You’ll be able to extend your family tree – and lots of the information in this thread now turns out to be of direct relevance.
GeoffE,
Yes, I think we did have pretty good information about Frederick George ROBINSON. I think it’s as follows:
Son of Joseph ROBINSON & Mary GUEST, b ca 1821 in Gainsborough.
Married Sarah Ann BERRY in 1849 in Doncaster.
A widower living with a sister in Peterborough in 1861.
Probably the Frederick George ROBINSON who married in Peterborough, Sept quarter 1861 (two Elizabeths on the same page).
A witness at the 1871 marriage of (his illegitimate daughter) Dorothy ROBINSON to Henry CRABB.
In Peterborough in 1881 with wife Elizabeth.
A couple of loose ends …
1. Why did Dorothy HOSTHEAD/ROBINSON go to live with ROBINSON relatives?
In 1851 Dorothy was living with her maternal grandparents.
Her maternal grandmother had been widowed by 1861 and was working as a servant. She had her youngest child with her but this probably explains why she hadn't been able to continue to look after Dorothy too.
In 1859, when Dorothy stole a shawl, she was living with her paternal aunt Ellen (ROBINSON) BROOMHEAD.
Loose ends – Why didn’t Dorothy’s mother Frances Elizabeth take over care of her daughter? Why did ROBINSON relatives take on Frederick’s illegitimate daughter? Why wasn’t Dorothy’s mother named in the report from the Wakefield Refuge? The answers will probably never be known.
2. The mother of Dorothy HOSTHEAD was Frances Elizabeth HOSTHEAD (bap 1823, daughter of William & Ellen; she is possibly the Frances Elizabeth SPINDLER died age 84 in Gainsborough in 1905).
In 1851 Frances was a servant with a Gainsborough family.
In 1861 Frances married William SPINDLER (sic). In the 1861 census, the household consisted of William SHINDLEY (sic) 22, Frances SHINDLEY 33, Charles HOYLAND (sic) 11, Edward HOYLAND 4. Charles and Edward are, presumably, further children of Frances.
Charles HOSTED was registered in Gainsborough, September quarter 1849.
Edward HOSTHEAD was registered in Gainsborough, December quarter 1856.
Loose ends – where was Charles in 1851? Who were the fathers of Charles and Edward (if William’s census age is correct, he would have been only 11 when Charles was born)?
Cheers,
JAP
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Yes I did find out who Fred's parents were. Mary Guest and Joseph Robinson. But am now stuck on Josephs parents but that is no big mystery like Dot's mother was.
Just so grateful to Sammy and of course all of you for helping along the way.
Claire