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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey Lookup Requests => Surrey => England => Surrey Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: noody on Saturday 25 March 06 00:58 GMT (UK)
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I have a family of Bennett on the 1851 Census in Shadwell. The wife Rebecca states she was born in Rotherhithe. Going by the age stated, she was born c. 1800.
This is the only information I possess.
I am desperately hoping this is my family, but I cannot "claim" them until I know her maiden name.
I am searchin for a Rebecca Harding born Rotherhithe, is there some one who can suggest where I can get more information regarding Rebecca?
many thanks in advance.
Noody
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Hi
My maths is not brilliant but looking at the image for the 1851 census she is age 40 so that puts her birth at about 1811. They do not have children with them, other than a nurse child. If you are lucky they will have married after 1837 so you can look for a marriage in the GRO index. If not then it means searching the parish records - not easy if you do not know the parish. I should ask for an 1841 look up for them and hope to find some children, possibly born after 1837 and then you can get a birth certificate which will show her maiden name.
I assume you have looked on www.familysearch.org?
Andrea
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Hi Noody,
Looking on the Surrey Marriage Index (pre 1837) for Rebecca Harding I found,
Rebecca Harding otp married James Shakelford otp 8/1/1823 CHERTSEY. Otp= Of This Parish.
For the John Bennett & Rebecca on the 1851 at Shadwell, Stepney I found on FreeBMD,
John Bennett March quarter marriage 1847, Stepney (2 476)
on the same page is REBECCA FLYNN. Could be that same couple.
Jane
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Very many thanks to Jane and Andrea for trying to assist.
After re reading my post I realised that I had forgotten to mention that I believe Rebecca had a son in 1830. It seems I was having a VERY SENIOR moment.
With a son of this age, already being off and on his own in the workforce, and not knowing of other children's names, I am relying on trying to trace Rebecca's birth in Rotherhithe.
Could one or both of you lovely people tell me if the Church records for Births in Rotherhithe are available on film at an LDS library?
I have tried their Family Search, but have not been able to get a grip on the one I believe I am looking for.
My apologies for putting an almost insurmountable brick wall on the list.
Noody
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The registers for Rotherhithe St Mary are on the IGI on familysearch for 1783 - 1868 according to my copy of Phillimore. There are copies at the Society of Geneaologists so I am sure the LDS will have them too though you may not find her if she is not on the IGI. Worth a try though. There are also non-conformist records so perhaps you ought to check those too.
Was this an illegitimate son? You may find more details in the parish chest if so as there might be a bastardy bond which names the father. Otherwise it puts the marriage back at pre 1820. How do you know her maiden name is Harding? What are the details for the son?
Andrea
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I have a marriage certificate that states the Mother's name as Rebecca Harding. The ages on all his other certificates tally with 1830 as the date of his birth..
I will try the IGI.
So far I have found nothing to suggest that the birth of the son was illegitimate, so will continue on the assumption that parents were married.
many thanks for your help Andrea, I will keep plodding.
Noody
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Whose marriage certificate has the mother's name on? English certificates do not usually have that information - only fathers are mentioned. I think it would help us if you quoted what you know about the son in detail. Where was he born? His name? Is it all possible that Rebecca married twice? Trying to look at all possibilities here!
Andrea
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I have an Australian marriage certificate for the son John Thomas Bennett who quotes his mothers name as Rebecca Harding. On the certificate he quotes Middlesex as his birth place but I have a copy of a church record for a John Thomas Bennett being born in Shadwell., to parents John Bennett and Rebecca. So I gather the parents were married.
How do I find out about the Parish Chest? I have never heard of this before, can I access it from overseas?
Noody
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I doubt if the parish chest would help in this case. It is really a record of the "accounts" and other dealings of the parish so would stat if they were paying to help a single mother for instance. However many have not survived, If they have then the local record office will know where they are held. Probably Kew in this case. Have you searched the film of the Shadwell St Paul register ? It is not on the IGI. It might show some siblings and the names might help.
Andrea
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Andrea, many thanks for your time and patience.
One more question before I don;t bother you again, and that is would you know where I can get the number of the film for Shadwell St.Paul?
Would the local LDS library be able to tell me?
Many thanks once again. If there is anything I can help you with in Australia, please let me know.
Noody
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Yes, the LDS centre will be able to help. They will have a catalogue of all their holdings. We are off on holiday today - up to Cumbria - the frozen north! Wish it was Australia. We had a year in Ballarat and loved it.
Andrea
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Many thanks for all your suggestions and help Andrea. I will get the film in and have a look see.
thank you once again.
Noody
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Hi noody,
If you google Family Search.org and click on SEARCH it will take you to a screen where you can choose from:
Search for Ancestors, Research Guidance, Research Helps, Web Sites, Family History Library Catalog.
Choose Family History Library Catalog and proceed from there.
Insert the name of the community you want to know about and the next screen will display all the resources held by the LDS for the place you choose. For Rotherhithe you have several churches to choose from. If a singular resource is very comprehensive and has been broken into sections that information is also available, so you can sometimes select a particular time frame to search.
Beth
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Hi Beth,
Many thanks for your post. I was actually at the local LDS Library last night and find that the LDS haven;t been able to obtain the right to copy the Shadwell St. Paul Register.
So a question to you Beth and to anyone else out there:
Can you tell me where the Shadwell St.Paul Register is being held, and is it possible to have it searched and if a registered researcher is necesarry?
Long question I know, but need many answers.
Thank you for your help Beth. Hope someone out there can help me with this last question.
Noody
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Hi noody,
When I Google Shadwell, Surrey, I get a number of responses which indicate that Shadwell is within Greater London ie: references to the underground.
In the LDS Catalog there is a Shadwell, Middlesex with a St. Paul's Church for which they do hold church records.
If it were me, I would check the time frame you need against what is available from there and hope that someone has their geography distorted and that the records you seek are indeed available.
Here's hoping.
Beth
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Hi Beth,
Yes the LDS do hold some records for St.Pauls Shadwell, but unfortnately not for the years I am researching 1800-1845.
Many thanks for the idea of the Greater London, will follow that up and see where it leads.
thanks again,
Noody
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My feeling is that these are one and the same church.
I hope you are able to find another avenue to access these records though it just may be that they have been damaged or destroyed in some way.
Good luck and happy hunting.
Beth
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If you are patient this website will eventually have indexed all the St. Paul Shadwell records from the C18th to the 1880s but it doesn't have the period you are interested in as yet.
http://www.parishregister.com/
The IGI gives a potential baptism for John Thomas Bennett in Stepney
JOHN THOMAS BENNETT
Birth: 22 NOV 1830
Christening: 25 DEC 1830 Saint George In The East, Stepney, London,
Father: JOHN BENNETT
Mother: REBECCA
Other possibilities of siblings from the IGI in the East End of London area are
WILLIAM ROBERT BENNETT
Birth: JUL 1824
Christening: 27 JUL 1824 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father: JOHN BENNETT
Mother: REBECCA
SAMUEL BENNETT
Birth: 01 JUL 1832
Christening: 01 AUG 1832 Saint Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London,
Father: JOHN BENNETT
Mother: REBECCA
JOSEPH BENNETT
Birth: 01 JUL 1832
Christening: 01 AUG 1832 Saint Luke Old Street, Finsbury, London,
Father: JOHN BENNETT
Mother: REBECCA
When did John Thomas Bennett emigrate?
What was his father's occupation?
Regards
Valda
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Hi Noody,
I am not quite sure what you know for certain?
My understanding is that you have Australian certificates for John Thomas BENNETT who states that he was born ca 1830 in Middlesex, and that his parents were John BENNETT and Rebecca HARDING?
Are they the only facts you have i.e. does everything else come into the category only of possible leads you are following up? It is always possible that John Thomas might not have been baptized and/or there might be no surviving record of it. And his parents might not still have been living by the time of the 1851 census. Etc ...
Perhaps when the 1841 census comes on to a certain site you will be able to see whether any John BENNETT(s) aged ca 11 is/are with parents John BENNETT and Rebecca ...
Though even this may not help as it is known (see Valda's post) that a John Thomas BENNETT (might be yours, might not) was baptized at St George in the East, Stepney in 1830 to a John BENNETT and a Rebecca; it might be worth ordering the film (#0578791) into your local LDS FHC just in case there are any further clues in the entry? And you say you have a copy of a church record for a John Thomas BENNETT being born in Shadwell to a John BENNETT and a Rebecca; what are the full details of this "church record"? St George in the East, Stepney and St Paul's, Shadwell were adjacent parishes and both were in Middlesex (sometimes recorded as London).
If you search for Shadwell on
http://www.old-maps.co.uk
then, when the map comes up, click on 'enlarged view', and scroll around, you can see St George church and, not far to the east, St Paul's church.
Incidentally the Hugh Wallis site at:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers.htm
indicates that baptisms for St Mary's CE, Rotherhithe for the time of the birth of Rebecca of the 1851 census (ca 1811) are in the online IGI (Rotherhithe appears in part as London, and in part as Surrey in the IGI). But, as you have found, there is no Rebecca HARDING in them. It is possible that Rebecca HARDING (wherever she was born) might not have been baptized or she might have been baptized in a church of some other denomination, the records of which are not held by the LDS and/or have not survived. Similarly a record of the marriage of John BENNETT and Rebecca HARDING (wherever that took place) might not have survived, or have been indexed.
The details of the "church record" would be interesting. And Valda has asked two very pertinent questions - when did your John Thomas emigrate (if you don't have the details of ship etc, presumably you have his death certificate which will indicate how long he had lived in Australia) and what was his father's occupation (which should be on John Thomas's marriage certificate).
Good luck,
JAP
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Valda and JAP. Many thanks for both of your replies. Valda I have taken down those children previously, but have nothing at this stage to link them to my John Thomas and Rebecca, but they are in the file WAITING.
Jap,
I have on the marriage certificate, the name of Rebecca Harding, John Thomas's father's occupation, that of Waterman. Cannot not find him in the bindings, so he may have just been a dock labourer.
On all his children's certificates his age is consistent, as it is on his marriage certificate.
The "church record" I have is a copy of a record which I believe is a Church Record, as it has not only my John Thomas's name on it but several others and is hand written as though in a book.
According to his death certificate he arrived in Australia in 1853. I have a John Bennett aboard the Lizzie Webber in 1852, but am not convinced this is the man I am after.
Yes a lot of what I have is maybe, but I feel that this is the man I am after. I really need to find the marriage of John Bennett and Rebecca Harding and feel that this will pull it all together. But then I wonder.................... and trying to find the marriage in c1820 is the almost impossible part.
Many thanks for all your input,
Noody
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Hi again Noody,
1851 CENSUS
If John Thomas BENNETT arrived in Australia in 1853 (what is the earliest record you have for him in Australia?), one would expect to find him in the 1851 census. There are some possibilities for a John BENNETT born Middlesex/London ca 1830 but nothing one can be sure of. What was his (earliest) occupation in Australia?
'LIZZIE WEBBER'
You mention the 'Lizzie Webber' in 1852. Googling shows that this ship carried unassisted migrants - one might perhaps expect that John Thomas, if he were the son of a dock labourer, would be an assisted migrant?
A website at:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/Indexes/PassengerLists/LizzieWebber.html
lists the passengers on the 'Lizzie Webber'. It states that passenger John BENNET (they spell it with one 't') was a Blacksmith - was this the occupation of John Thomas?
Have you looked at the microfiche of the 'Lizzie Webber' voyage - it might have further information about passenger John BENNETT which could either rule him out or leave him as a possibility.
The site also says that the ship sailed from Sunderland and that, though not all passengers were from NE England, most were.
THE "CHURCH" RECORD
Are you certain that the "church record" is from St Paul's Shadwell? What is the wording of the entry?
If I were you, I would be ordering in the film with the baptism of John Thomas BENNETT, 1830, son of John BENNETT and Rebecca, in St George in the East, Stepney (the parish adjoining Shadwell St Paul's0. It probably won't help - but you never know.
1841 CENSUS
Have you requested a lookup in the 1841 London census on the London Lookup Requests board?
Good luck,
JAP
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A waterman and lighterman are very specific terms so unless John Thomas Bennett was elevating his father's status on his marriage (and if he was doing that you might expect him to have elevated it a bit further than waterman) you would not confuse the term waterman with a dock labourer. Watermen apprenticeships passed down families and there is that strong element of training and skill associated with the occupation. Dock labourer is an unskilled job. If you finished your apprenticeship as a waterman and became a member of the Guild you were also entitled to become a freemen of the City of London (dock labourers born Dartmouth Devon were not likely to have received that London apprenticeship which in the earlier part of the C19th was still a bit of a monopoly but which broke down increasingly as the C19th progressed).
The website I have already given has access to the records and indexes of the watermen and lightermen (and I personally have found information outside the bindings when I have researched watermen) and will do searches for you. You might expect the son of a waterman to have been apprenticed himself so it would be worth searching for John Thomas Bennett in the records.
http://www.parishregister.com/aboutstp.html
As JAP says there are several possibilities for John Bennetts on the 1851 census, one of whom was a blacksmith born St. Pauls (Shadwell or otherwise?) but he was a prisoner on the 1851 census.
I can see no Rebecca Harding marriages within 20 years in the London area on the IGI or Pallots marriage index. Boyds marriage index is on the Origins website but that is subscription only.
The John Thomas Bennett baptism at St George in the East should give the father John Bennett's occupation.
Regards
Valda
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To Valda, JAP and everyone else who has helped with suggestions and advice, a VERY BIG THANK YOU.
I will have to leave it there for the time being, as there are some medical things to attend to, but I do thank you all for giving me so much to think about, and to plan ahead for.
many thanks
Noody