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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: nutkin on Wednesday 06 October 04 16:03 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find someone who can help me get information from a birth record in Germany and to see if there is any books written on this family. I know they were born in Gernmany and moved to the US but hope there is someone out there who can read German and has access to German records.
Here is what I know about the Schwarz Family. John Schwarz came to the US in 1868 from Germany. According to his marriage license in the US, he was born on October 30, 1855 in Germany to Heinrich Schwarz and Sophia ?. The place on the marriage license looks to be Nuremburg, Bavaria. According to second hand family stories, the Schwarz family lived near Hamburg but as I saw on the marriage certificate, it looks to be Nuremburg, Bavaria. According to family lore, they were organ manufacturers in Germany. I have found pictures of the Schwarz organ in Europe's many cathedrals. I would love to know about this piece of my ancestry as my grandfather, Robert Schwarz was an excellent flute player and I inherited some of his talent.
In the US, the Schwarz family owned a chain of bakeries in Manhattan. John Schwarz was a baker. Later sold the bakeries at the turn of the century. John Schwarz married Katharine Kroll on October 3, 1886 in Manahttan. Katherina Kroll was born on February 21, 1855 in Germany to Friedrick Kroll and Anna Elizabeth Doosel ?. Again, family lore says Stuttgart or Gross was her birth place but the marriage record is hard to read. Katherine came to the US in 1884. John and Kattie had 3 children John/Jack (my great-grandfather who was born on July 14, 1888 in Manhattan), Katherine (born 1887) and Anna (born 1894). John died in Mahattan in 1914 just after his son Jack was married.
I would love to find out more on my German ancestry. Please let me know if this is a possibility that someone can help me.
Sincerely- kristin
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Did Germany have the same kind of records that Britain did circa 1900? I too wish to find out more about my German ancestors, my Father's Mother's family in fact and I've had no success at all!!
Sorry if this kills your buzz...
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Hi Nutkin, Hi Ryan,
look on the "Immigrants" Board, "Sharing useful links: Germany & E.Europe". I wrote a bit there about the records situation. I can tell you more later, but not now, as I am off to Wales for a week.
Talk to you when I get back ...
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Hi Nutkin,
Back in Berlin !
I've tried a google search for "schwartz orgelbauer" but no luck so far. Still looking !
For Kroll you say Stuttgart or Gross. Gross means Big or Great and is often used as a name prefix Gross X
The only Gross... I could find so far in Baden-Württenberg (same federal state as Stuttgart) are:
Grossaltdorf
Grosselfingen
Grossglatbach
Hi Ryan,
can you give more details ?, preferably as a look-up in Immigrants, rather than emigrants, as more people will see it there !
Bob
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Bob,
Here is a copy of the marriage license between Katharine Kroll and John Schwarz. It shows the place of birth. I am not postive of the place as it is hard to read and I am unfamiliar with Germany places.
Maybe you have super powers and came read this better than I.
- Kristin
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Super powers ? Me ? No Way !
So far I have for no. 6: Nürnberg, Baiern, G. (Baiern = Bayern = Bavaria, G. = Germany ?)
and for the third from last line (place of birth) I think it's
Alt-something Heftell, G.
I shall carry on looking, but first, I must go back to work !
Could you add a bit more of the image, for comparison ?
regards,
Super- ( - would that I were - ) Bob
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Hi Bob. I hope you enjoyed your trip!!
My connections to Germany are rooted in my Paternal Grandmother whom I call 'Nanna' :P Her name is Ruth Folke. She was born 1933 in Oels (Oelsnica) Silesia. She is the daughter of Emil Folke and Hildergard Manthei, and Granddaughter of Adolf Folke and Berta (?). My Nanna has recalled all of this from memory. Really, my Nanna is the only emmigrant. She married Kenneth Hill (my astranged Grandfather) and lived with him in first the Isle of Wight, then Canada until my Grandfather left her (he was a total cad and a horrible man). He left her with their 7 children. My Nanna returned to Britain and lived with her in-laws here, in Exeter.
Does Germany have BMD records like we do? Do you have any tips on how I can learn more about my Folke ancestors?
Thank you!!
:)
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Super Bob,
I am at work righ now but when I get home tonight I will attach the rest of the immage for comparison.
It will be a few hours.
- Kristin ;D
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The full marriage record is rather large in size. I tried to reduce it as much as possible and it is still 1.5M. I can send to your regular email. Just pm the address.
- Kristin
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Hi Kristin,
My mailbox won't take that either. Can you just 'cut' out another piece, similar size to the above. It's just the handwriting we need, for comparison.
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Hi Ryan,
I've just added a topic to the board: http://www.rootschat.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15098.0 which should help answer some of your questions.
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Hi Kristin,
I think the place you are looking for could be NURNBERG, in Bavaria. I found it on a map of Germany on the internet.
I went to www.geneanet.org and searched for Schwarz at Nurnberg and came up with one database owned by a Michael Klein in Berlin.
(http://www.goklein.de)
He may be able to help you.
I would also recommend www.familysearch.org (Latter Day Saints)
I have had amazing success with the Kirchenbuch - German parish records, for my mother's family who were from Prussia.
I ordered the film for the village where they came from in Prussia and found out that my 2nd great grandfather had 2 other wives and 6 other children who we did not know about.
The records are in a mixture of Latin and German but are not too difficult to interpret and there are on-line lists available, of German and Latin words which relate to genealogy.
(I checked the IGI at the LDS website but did not see your John there.)
Please let me know what you think about the location being NURNBERG - that's how it appears to me.
I may be able to help you with Katharine Kroll's place of birth but the map site I require is not available at the moment.
Hope this gives you some help and encouragement.
Foxglove
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Hi Foxglove,
you beat me to it. I was going to suggest http://www.geneanet.org for a rainy day, and go through the various contact links there, to try and find some matches.
I agree with you on Nürnberg, but how would you interpret the birthplace of Katharina Kroll ?
I have Alt-something Heftell, G. or maybe Hessen ? I hope Kristin can add a bit more handwriting soon, for comparison.
p.s.
I have posted several links and tips on the "immigrants" board, including one about Local Heritage Books (Ortsfamilienbücher) - none for Nürnberg, unfortunately !
p.p.s
I tried Googling for "Kirchenbücher Nürnberg". It seems that those that they are available in Nürnberg für Look-ups, but not on-line
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Hi Bob,
Sorry - I have read all of your posts and thought I would add my vote for Nurnberg.
If you go to LDS Family Search site and try to do a "Place Search" for Nuremberg you won't find it - you have to look for Nurnberg. You can then chose from a number of films for that location.
I agree with what you have so far on Katharina's place of birth - I would have to say it is Hessen, but can't be sure about the first word.
I have a website for maps but the page will not be displayed at the moment - will keep trying.
If I can access it there is a list of all the villages in Germany, arranged alphabetically.
address is http://www.calle.com/world/germany/
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Hi Foxglove.
looks like they changed the URL to mirror the Internet country code.
try http://www.calle.com/world/DE/
p.s. I keep typing Nürnberg with Umlaut, but I don't know if it shows up as such on an "english speaking" computer ;D
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Hi Bob,
I don't have Umlaut on my keyboard ( I'm Canadian, eh ) but I see it on my monitor.
Yes I visited the www.calle.com/DE/ page but the link I have should take you to their world map pages. I have written to them to ask if this is just a temporary problem.
Cheers,
Foxglove
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Bob and Foxglove,
I can add another part of the marriage immage but the only other handwritten part is the name John Schwarz. The rest is type written form. Let me know and I can cut the other piece.
I love geneanet. You are correct and it is great for a raining day. I will see what I can find.
Thank you so much for all your help and interest. I appreciate this so much!- kristin
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Hi Kristin,
bring on the dancing girls ! Ooops, sorry, try that again: yes please, do add John Schwarz.
Another idea: is it possible, to re-size the bit you have above, from 591 to 700 pixels and post it again ?
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Hi Bob and Kristin,
I have the new address for the map site - the page for Germany is at : http://www.fallingrain.com/world/GM/
I have been trying to figure out a match starting with "Alt" under Hessen without much luck.
Maybe the two of you can figure it out.
Cheers,
Carol (Foxglove)
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I am at work right now (lunch break) and will try to resize an area for you when I get home. I will try to bring some dancing girls...but short notice for the ones I know! ;D
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Home from work and was unable to find the dancing girls but I was able to scan the other part of the certificate. Still learning how to use the darn thing.
;D
Lets see how this helps. I am also going to post the cover page of teh marriage certificate. Has more writing.- Kristin
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Here is the cover page.
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Hi, I was looking at the certificate you posted and as far as we (my wife is german) can tell the place of birth is Altenhausen, Hessen. That may be a good place to look. regards..
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I agree with Rezzyrezz and his wife: Altenhausen, Hessen
BUT: I tried a german site: http://gov.genealogy.net/index.jsp (Geneal. Place names catalogue)
with altenhausen and got three possibilities:
Name PLZ staatliche Zugehörigkeit
(Name) (zipcode) (Federal State)
Altenhausen 74523 Baden-Württemberg
Altenhausen W8050 Bayern RB Oberbayern - Freising
Altenhausen 39343, O3241 Sachsen-Anhalt RB Magdeburg - ?
Problem:
a) None of them are in Hessen
b) the handwriting doesn't look like any of the above states !
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Hi Kristin,
just came across this link for German Organs: http://www.hetorgel.nl/links/lduitsland-rest.htm
Lots and lots of links here, just the job for a rainy afternoon !
orgelbauer= organ builder
I found two references to "orgelbauer schwarz" in google, one for an organ built in 1903, another in 1908 - is the "family firm" still going ?, or could it still have been going in 1908 ?
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Hey Bob! I am going to check out your link after I email you. The Schwarz family came to the US in 1868 so I am not sure if they were still in business in the early 1900's. It is possible that my Henrich and John Schwarz came from a second son and did not keep in touch with those left in Germany who ran the organ manufacturing business- Kristin.
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Hi Kristin,
I was hoping to give you a few christmas nuts, but, although edible, they turned out to be red herrings !
I was in my local music library recently so I thought I would look up "Schwarz - Orgelbauer"
Red-Herring 1) I found an article in a german music reference book, but then found the same article in the Grove Dictionary of Music (see attatchment)
Red-Herring 2) The only reference to Schwarz in South Germany was in Üblingen - which I can't (so far) find in any internet search machines !
I shall keep looking ! You mentioned some time that the Schwarz organs were still around. Can you let me/us know where they are, perhaps we can trace him through them.
Happy New Year, and I hope you find all your nuts !
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Oooops !!! :-[
can't read my own writing ! not Üblingen, but Überlingen :)
There are two Überlingens but both are in Baden-Württemberg
i.e. more in direction Stüttgart than Nürnberg :(
So probably still a red-herring !
Sorry !
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Bob!
Still searching for my Schwarz family. I will check my notes tonight and see where I saw the Schwarz organs. Thank you so much for thinking of me when you were out.
I wonder if squirrels eat red herrings??? ;)
Thanks again.- Kristin
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Here are the organs that I found. Who know if they are related but keeping my fingers crossed. It seems that most things my grandma knew were correct. Just a bit off but the substance was there. Keep in mind she liked her gin when entertaining.
1908- Altham, St. Valentin
1912- St. Blaise, Black Forest, Germany
1796- Gaz Steiermarkisches Landesmuseum Johnneum- Franz Xavier Schwarz
1903- Munster, Radolfzell/Bondensee
Please excuse my horrible typing of german words. I am sure it is really poor.
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A little present for Nicholas ...
(Topic: My reason for family history....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,111372.0.html )
A description of a church "guidebook", from the Steiermark in Austria (Graz is part of the Steiermark)
http://graz-seckau.at/content/dioezesanmuseum/530_kirchenfuehrer.php?we_lv_start_Katalog=10
Fischbach, Pfarrkirche
Einheitlicher Barockbau von 1783, geweiht dem hl. Ägidius, Orgel von Franz Xaver Schwarz (1785) , in Glockenstube Glocke von 1272 (angeblich), gotische Kultfigur des hl. Ägidius. Führer: 17,1 x 11,9cm, farbig bebildert, 11 Seiten
Bob
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Bob,
Watch out or Nicholas will get spoiled with all the praise and gifts!!!?? But then again is it possible to spoil such a young baby.
I am tutoring him as I type on family history searching. Some of his first words may be "Which way to the archives and where are the census records kept?" ;D
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hello. i live in germany, and read german. i will see what i can do.