RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: rossh on Sunday 12 March 06 20:23 GMT (UK)
-
Hi, i'm just starting out search my family tree. I've got stuck on an ancestor and i'm looking for some advise. I know the following details about Duncan Haggart and Ann (Burns) Haggart:-
Duncan Haggart
HAGGART, DUNCAN Statutory Deaths 485/B0 0016
-Parents: Archibald Haggart and Catherine Campbell
-Born:1847
-Died:19 Feb 1901, Parish of Logie, District of Stirling, Bridge of Allan
-Spouse: Ann Burns
1881 Census, FHL Film 0203508 GRO Ref Volume 374 EnumDist 1 Page 14
-Children: 8, James, Catherine, Duncan, Eliza, Isobella, Maggie, Peter, William
-Birthplace: Duncan Haggart, Kenmore, Perthshire, Scotland
-1881 Address, Airthrey Mill Cottage, Bridge of Allan
I would love to know Duncan and Ann's marriage details, but can't find any or birth details but i'm really after more information on Duncan's parents, Archibald Haggart and Catherine Campbell
otherwise i'm stuck! Any adivse or help would be great.
I've tried various different searches on familytree.org and scotlandspeople.gov.uk census details for archibald and duncan 1881, 1871 and can't find anything? Also no death entries for Archibald or his wife?
Thanks
Ross
-
I would love to know Duncan and Ann's marriage details
Hi Ross,
If you look on the IGI you'll find that Duncan and Ann got married in Dunblane on 20/12/1860. No sign of his parents anywhere though, I think continuing to search the censuses is your best bet!
Caroline
-
Hi Ross
In case you are unaware - the IGI http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
contains the civil records for scotland births and marriages 1855-1875, 1881 and 1891. It also contains many pre and post civil church records.
The marriage mentioned by Caroline is a civil marriage record, so you would be able to buy a copy of the image on ScotlandsPeople. It will be there somewhere, perhaps the spelling is different to what you have tried. On the IGI the spelling is
DUNCAN HAGGART and ANN BURNS
The 1860 marriage, however, would throw some doubt on the birth year of Duncan of 1847. Where did this date come from? What was the age of Duncan on the 1881 census?
Children records on the IGI are
All born in Logie, Perth, Scotland
Mary Ann 28 FEB 1862
John 30 SEP 1863
James 29 SEP 1865
Catherine 06 SEP 1868
William 26 DEC 1869
Peter 31 MAR 1871
Duncan 10 SEP 1873
The missing ones presumably between 1876 and 1880 would be on SP.
Trish
-
Hi Ross,
I think you may have the wrong parents.
According to the I.G.I. Duncan Haggart could be the son born 25 Mar 1830, Kinnoul, to Peter Haggart and his wife Mary Campbell, or the son born 23 Mar 1832, Aberfoyle to Peter Haggart and Janet McNaughton. Whichever one of the two, this would make him 28 or 30 when he married Ann Burns.
-
Hi all thanks very much for your help. I have been concerend over Duncan Haggart's age. This is what info i have:
Marriage entry for:-
James Haggart & Catherine Forrest
24 Nov 1885
Lecroft, Perth, Scotland
James parents: Duncan Haggart & Ann Burns
address: Bridge of Allan
I then have a death cert for Duncan Haggart
Death: 1901 ages 54, so year of birth 1847
Wife: Ann Burns
Address: Bridge of Allan
Parents: Archibald Haggart & Catherine Campbell
Then on the census details the year of birth (1844) differs, i thought it may have been an error on the death entry?
Could i have the wrong census details be wrong? Also why would Archibald and Catherine's death entries not be registered? If they died prior to a register is their anywhere else i could search! Sorry pretty new to this thanks again for all the help
Regards
Ross
-
Could it be you have a death certificate for the wrong James - but he does have the correct wife ??? mmm It does seem that the age on the death certificate is wrong OR it is the wrong person on the census - very tricky
Sorry, I don't think I'm much help. As suggested by Caroline, there seems to be no sign of the birth of Duncan, so trying to go backwards via the census may be the best option.
Trish
-
Did you get the names of Duncan's parents from his Marriage Certificate or from his Death Certificate ? I only ask because there is just a possibility that whoever registered the death may have given the wrong parents. As far as the Marriage Certificate is concerned, one would expect that Duncan would have known who his parents were.
-
Hi Thanks for all your help, that's great advise i'll get looking at Catherines death entries hopefully it will give me some clues! Thanks again this has really been useful.
-
Ross,
I too am looking at Duncan Haggart and his birth dates.
I looked at the death certificate and saw that his father was Archiblad Haggart although on his marriage certificate it has John Haggart and a coorected death entry has it as John Haggart also - so I'm confused.
It was interesting to note though that he fell off a wall intot he River Allan and died of exposure.
I'm also interested in my great grandfather James Haggart and his wife Catherine Forrest. I have her as both Bowie (birth, james's death cert) but Forrest on their marriage certificate.
Any ideas?
Where do you come in the tree??
Nancy
-
Hi Nancy,
Thanks for this. I'm afarid i got stuck and haven't got back to it for some time, but you've renewed my interest! My parents are:
James Haggart, Marion Haggart (Parents, Dundee)
Robert Haggart, Besty Haggart (Grandparents, Dundee)
What about yourself?
I'll have a look at my family tree again this week and i'll get back to you.
Thanks again
Ross
-
hi pal,
wonder if this is any help?
1851 census- acharn, kenmore
catherine...age 48...out door worker...born killin
john...age 25...labourer
james...age 16...apprentice tailor
archiebald...age 14
duncan...age 11
mary...age 9
donald...age 7
1861 census- 4 henderson street, logie
catherine...age 55...lodging house keeper
isabella...age 31...cook p
duncan...age 21...paper maker
donald...age 18...groom
1871 census- 8 stirling mill road, logie
duncan...age 31...paper mill worker
mary ann...age 9
james...age 5
catherine...age 3
william...age 1
peter...no age
margaret stewart...age 4
1881 census- airthrey mill, logie
duncan...age 37...paper mill worker
ann...age 35
james...age 15...paper mill worker
maggie...age 14
catherine...age 12
william...age 11
peter...age 10
duncan...age 7
isabella...age 4
eliza...age 2
1891 census- mill of airthrey, logie
duncan...age 47...mill worker
ann...age 44
magie...age 24...millworker
william...age 21...plumber
peter...age 20...millworker
duncan...age 17...millworker
isabella...age 14
eliza...age 12
agnes...age 8
johanna...age 6
1891 census- mill of airthrey, logie
james...age 25...railway cleaner
catherine...age 26
duncan...age 4
mary...age 2
robert f...age 1
1901 census- mill of airthrey cottages, logie
maggie...age 33...paper mill worker
jessie watson...age 6...niece
ann brown...age 78...grandmother...born dunblane (maybe a clue!!)
1901 census- paradise row, newmains, douglas, lanarkshire
william...age 30...plumber
jessie...age 24
john b...age 2
1901 census- old millnew bdes
peter...age 29...dye worker
elizabeth...age 33
isabella...age 8
duncan...age 6
robert...age 6
william sutherland...age 15...rural postman
1901 census- mill of airthrey, logie
duncan...age 27...cotton worker/packer
janet...age 24...born tillicoultry
duncan b...age 1
catherine rintoul...mother-in-law...age 48...born tillicoultry
david rintoul...brother-in-law...age 19...cotton worker
mary agnes rintoul...sister-in-law...age 10...born dunblane
1901 census- 78 st.mary's wynd, stirling
james...age 35...railway worker
catherine...age 35
duncan...age 14...message boy
mary ann...age 12
robert...age 10
william...age 8
eliza...age 5
katie...age 2
Joe
-
Hi Joe
That's fantastic, thanks for your help! Loads of info to go on. I had a look at the death cert. of Duncan Haggart he was 54 when he died in 1901, so born 1847, yet the census means he's born 1840. Are these discrepancies common?
Thanks again for the info
Ross
-
Ross,
I think there are discrepancies in the census ages. I seem to have found a lot of these.
I am from Stirling but I currently live in New Zealand.
My parents are William and Isabella Haggart (Stirling)
Grandparents William (b. 1892) and Agnes Haggart (Stirling)
William was James Haggart's (1865-1934) son.
So was your grandfather Robert and my grandfather brothers?? Are you still living in the area?
I got really stuck on the births of Duncan Haggart and Ann Burns - can't seem to find any information anwhere - although Joe's information is really great!
I haven't given up though....
Nancy
-
Point to note about the 1841 Census:
Enumerators were instructed to round down the ages of persons 15 years and over to the nearest five years. Hence a given age of 28 would be recorded as 25, one of 63 as 60 and so on. If a person lied about their age, this, combined with the rounding down, could severely distort the actual age.
In the 1851 census:
The given age of each person was recorded, instead of adult ages being rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
-
I think there are discrepancies in the census ages. I seem to have found a lot of these.
Excluding the rounding of 1841, we all have many of these "discrepancies". I have one lovely relative who aged 45 years in a 60 year time period - a variation on creative accounting perhaps ;D ;D
Trish
-
If it's any help . . . . .
Logie, Bridge of Allan and *Lecropt are all side by side and Dunblane just up the road, so that might exclude some of the further afield locations.
*Lecroft as posted by Ross is Lecropt
I also noticed there was an RCE reference on Duncan's death certificate - might be worthwhile finding out what that's all about - might not be anymore than is already on the certificate, but you never know.
Lastly, the local cemetery for this area would be Logie Cemetery, so there's a possibility that Duncan might be buried there. Given that you know Duncan's exact date of death, if you contacted: http://www.stirling.gov.uk/cemetries , they would be able to tell you if he wasn't buried in Logie, where he was buried (providing it was within the Stirling area)
It's not always the case, but sometimes there can be information on an MI that you wouldn't necessarily find anywhere else.
There are plent of people (like me ;D) who are quite happy to go 'graveyarding' to look for people's ancestors and take a wee photograph of the stone, if there is one. All that's required is a Section and a Lair number (supplied by the above link) so it's not a case of wandering around like a lost soul!!
Anne.
-
Anne,
Thanks for all the help here!
I know the Stirling area really well so I plan to go 'graveyarding' in September when I am back home. I have an aunt who is 87 so I am hoping that she may have information on her grandfather (James Haggart) and further back.
I looked at the RCE for Duncan's death - it seems he fell over a wall into the River Allan in Bridge of Allan causing his death. ??? Strangely though on the death certificate it has Archibald as his father and on the RCE it has John. I'm not sure if this is the correction or not :-\.
Anyway, I'll keep digging - I think a visit to Kenmore Church is a must!
Nancy
-
Hi Nancy,
Don't forget a visit to Logie as well!
I've got all the MI's for the Churchyard so if he's in there, he doesn't have a stone. There's now another cemetery extension at the front of Logie Kirk so between that and the cemetery which is attached to the Churchyard, it extends to quite a size.
I hope by September summer is here or at least it stays dry during your visit.
I'll keep my fingers crossed!!
Anne