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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: Sheila Whittingham on Friday 10 March 06 14:33 GMT (UK)
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Please can anyone help me find Transportation details of my Great great great grandfather James Flower. My cousin in Australia and I have been trying without success to find the ship he was sent out on, sentence, where in Australia he served his time etc. We have found several James Flowers over the past 18 months, but age, date etc are always incorrect.
He came from the Bedminster area of Bristol and was probably involved with coalmining.The story goes that he and two men stole a sheep, and hid the butchered carcass in the outside privy of the Red Cow pub in Bedminster, and that the ringleader was hanged and he and his friend were transported around 1846, when he would have been about 38 years old.
I found a James flower in the Gloucester Gaol register, but age and crime were different. On the 1851 census my Great great great grandmother Caroline and children are listed, her as " head of household, occupation Saleswoman, husband transported," and he is back in England on the 1861 census.
My cousin is having no luck whatsoever on the Australian records.
Any advice on where to go from here at the English end would be very welcome.
Many thanks.
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Hello!
Bedminster came under Somerset, so any gaol calendars etc should be with their records. That might explain why you can't find them in Gloucestershire.
Very confusing of them to split Bristol in half!!
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Many thanks, will give that a try,I was told he was sentenced at Gloucester assizes, but obviously that was incorrect.
Sheila.
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I don't want to contradict what you have been told, but it is worth a try!
Have you looked at Gloucester's online catalogue? I assume you have. If it turns out he is there, so to speak, I can look up the record for you next time I go.
A ;)
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Could he have been sentenced at the Assizes in Gloucester (held every quarter?) but in gaol elsewhere?
Susan :)
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Here he is in 1841
James Flower 35 Toy Maker - Y
Caroline Flower 35 - Y
George Flower 20 Smith - Y
James Flower 15 - Y
Jonathan Flower 13 - Y
Louise Flower 10 - Y
Eliza Flower 8 - Y
Caroline Flower - Y
Charlotte Flower 1 - Y
Greens Buildings
Bedminster
HO107/376 folio 49 page 35
Y = Yes born in county
Susan :)
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Hello Susan,
thankyou for finding them on the 1841 census, same address as the 1851.Children tie in except for my great great grandfather who was born about 1842.i am thrilled to find he was a toymaker as most of the bedminster Flowers in my tree are coalminers.
On the 1851 census Caroline is a saleswoman with three male lodgers., so it looks like she needed income to support her family.
As I said earlier, maybe I need to search Bristol newspapers sometime to see if there is a report of the trial, as my cousin in Oz cant find him at her end either.A number of Flowers but not ours it seems.
Many thanksSheila.
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I recently contacted the National Archives about my criminal ancestor & they referred me to their guide.
A link to that and various other sources are on the Black Sheep site, which might be helpful?
http://blacksheepancestors.com/uk/prisons.shtml
;)
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Thanks Arranroots,
Will checkout website and online catalog at Gloucester as suggested.
Thankyou for your help and suggestions
Regards Sheila.
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there is a website for tasmania, the convicts and more for nsw, where abouts did he go.
the tassie one is really good found my great grandfather there
cheers rosie
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By 1846 there were few convicts coming to the eastern states of Australia
In the period 1846-1850 the ones sent to NSW were known as "convict exiles"
Transportation to NSW effectively ceased in 1842 but between 1846-50 exiles were transported. Exiles had served part of their sentence in a penitentiary in Britain and were granted a conditional pardon or ticket of leave on arrival in the Colony.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/indexes_online_3357.asp#Convicts
Then I find - on the ship China - voyage date 3 Jan 1846 - to Van Dieman's Land
There is a listing for a James Flower =Convicts Transported HO 11/15
Somerset assizes 2 Aug 1845 sentence Life
There are a few others on the China convicted at the same time - would these names be of any help?
Is this a possible - more information
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/nameindexes
He arrived 16 may 1846 and there is a note saying died Norfolk Island June 1846 - and that was not a nice place to be sent!
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?detail=1&type=C&id=24010
I'm not sure where the NI records of that time are held - google will probably find them - 1846 was, I think, the 3rd convict settlement on NI
Trish
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Hi Rosie/ Trish
Sheila hasn't been online for a while but hopefully she will get a notification as the above info is really helpful.
It's an interesting thing to note that convicts were still being sent abroad at this time - my own was sentenced in 1853 and disappears without trace, so I know how frustrating it can be looking for them!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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hi arranroots
its amazing and frustrating, there are so many records that have been destroyed too, such a shame pity they didnt have puters going back then
take care and thanks
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/
rosie
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Oh dear - I only ever look at the last post - didn't check the date on the others - now if old threads were deleted, I wouldn't have spent time on this ;D ;D
Truth be, they probably found the information from your Somerset comment AR, so we can assume another happy customer
Trish
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Ah, never assume in Family History!
And since Sheila's cousin may also want to refer to the thread, we won't be deleting it (see my comments to you earlier today).
We've had quite a few people discover new cousins and solve long-standing mysteries by discovering threads posted years ago on Rootschat - and that's the beauty of sharing!
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Many thanks folks for your input, and sorry I haven,t been on line for ages.
I have now found out where my original confusion over names occurred regarding Flowers transported.My great great great Grandfather James Flower ,the toymaker ,may have now served his time in England but his wife may not have known where he was, and put husband transported on the census form.That may be why we cant find him on Oz.and it seems the other James Flower who was transported was his son, who,s prison details and newspaper report of his trial were supplied by Gloucester records office.Young James was sentenced for highway robbery.He and a friend got chatting to a man in a Bedminster pub, who was seeking work.They followed him outside, robbed him and beat him very badly.His conduct whilst in prison awaiting trial was very good and it seems he was previously of good character.My cousin mentioned a ship called the China. My cousin in Oz also thinks that another brother ended up in the notorious prison near Portland Bill breaking stone, and their mother may have died in London in a womens prison.My great great grandfather seems to have been the best of the bunch.His only "crime" seems to have been getting my Great great grandmother pregnant before the wedding.
Thankyou to everyone who helped me along the journey,and hope you all have a great Christmas
Sheila xx :)
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Wow Sheila - some pretty colourful flowers in that bunch! :D
Do try to get hold of all the relevant court records - the physical descriptions alone make it worthwhile.
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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8)
hey everyone
just wishing you all a wonderful chrissie whether it is going to be hot, snow or rain
take care rosemary
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Hi my name is Lisa,
i think i have some information about James Flower from Bedminster who was transported on the Bangalore in 1847, he was tryed along with his partner in crime Edward Milkins but am sorry to say it was not for the crime of sheep stealing they where both given 7 years for there crimes. my conection to the Flower family is through James sister caroline who married James Parsons my relative. In 1881 Caroline Flower senior was in prison in Milton Keynes and Johnathan was in prison in Portland Dorset in 1861.
I hope this has helped
Lisa
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Hi lisa,
Yes we have the same family.
I have Caroline Adela 1837-1887 married to James Parsons in Clifton in 1859, and she was his second wife.I have him as dying in Pontypool in 1895.Caroline was my 2x grandfathers sister.
regarding James Flower and Edward Milikin, I think they were the two who were transported for highway robbery, (see my messages,) and according to the prison records, it reads that Edward was a collier, aged 30, 5'7" sandy hair and grey eyes. "Having feloniously attacked and beat in danger of his life and violently stealing his property from his persons against the statute native of Bedminster,John Tucker Edward was married.
James has the same charges.
james was an engine smith for Stallard and Stoddard .
they both had orderley conduct whilst in prison.
if you would like any further Flower info, please e mail me privately and I will see what I can do.
There is still some confusion on which ship the men went out on.
Sheila xx
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Hi Sheila
I did a little happy-dance :D when I came across your post... I'm researching my partner's line and was looking into OLDFIELD (John). According to his conviction info in the Bristol sessions on 10th April 1849, he was tried for "sheep-stealing before convicted of felony" and from what I can discern, his partners in crime were James Flower (convicted and sentenced to 'Transport 7 years') and Jonathon Flower (found not guilty).
John Oldfield was transported to WA Australia for his crime, arriving Fremantle 1851.
I'm new to this family research stuff, so not sure if I'm reading the register correctly....Am I right in connecting the Flower boys with John Oldfield? :-\
If so, I'd love to hear more about the story behind the sheep-stealing :)
Cheers, Kathryn
WA, Australia