RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: sewingfooi on Monday 06 March 06 16:16 GMT (UK)
-
There is a Charles Bailey, born in Monmouth, on the 1861 census listed as private in the Army at South Barracks & Calvary, Walmer, Kent. I see no reference of a regiment number - is it just the calvary? I would like to find his military record. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks,
Dorothy
-
Hi Dorothy,
If you have access to the 1861 census,try working backwards from the entry for Charles as the officers of the regiment were usually listed first and it might give an indication of the regiment he was in.It's gotta be worth a try. :)
Regards,Mick ;)
-
Thank you for the tip. I just paged through all 30 pages and even the officers are listed as just "in the army". Just my luck I guess. Thanks again.
Dorothy
-
If you can post some of the names of the officers, that might help - sometimes it's much easier to track down officers than other ranks. They might be in the Army List or the Times, for example. Particularly if any of the officers have unusual names!
Also, if he had any children born while he was still in the army, their birth records (possibly on the overseas index) might show his regiment.
-
The barracks at Walmer were the North, South and East barracks and the South barracks were definately Cavalry barracks,so that does narrow the search down a bit.A bit of head scratching is needed,I'll see if I can find anything else.
There is a pic of the South barracks here,not a lot of other info there though! ???
http://www.cavalrybarracks.com/index.html
Regards,Mick ;)
-
Thanks Jorose! OK here goes-
Corporals Saul Higham, Joseph Dunkuley, Edward Gough, Amos Markes, James Pentener.
Captains Baker Russell, Francis Attye (Altye?).
Lieutenants Edward Wynne Griffith, Vincent Upton Larsworthy(?), Henry Flood, Henry Waring.
Sergeants Thomas Brown, Edward Lovlock, George Orr.
Appreciate your help so much!!
Dorothy
-
Hi Dorothy,
Quite a list you have there,the officers,as jorose rightly said,will be easier to find.Were they all serving in the 1860's?
Mick ;)
-
They are all listed on the 61 with Charles Bailey.
Dorothy
-
There was a Captain Baker Creed Russell of the 13th Hussars (Cavalry) listed in the 1876 army list,we might be getting closer! :P
I'll keep looking,
Mick ;)
-
Captain Baker Creed Russell joined the 7th of Foot in 1859 (Times) - moved to the 13th Hussars from the 7th Foot in 1862 (also Times)
In 1863 Lieut. Vincent Upton Larsworthy moved from the 7th to the 100th Foot (also Times).
Seems a bit odd if they were supposed to be in a Cavalry barracks!
-
So maybe my Charles was in the 7th Foot? What exactly does that mean - is that what you would call infantry? And yes they were all listed in the census as living in South Barracks.
You guys are the greatest!
Dorothy
-
So maybe my Charles was in the 7th Foot?
Possibly, if we have the right Captain Russell.The 7th Foot (The Royal Fusiliers- City of London regiment) were an infantry regiment and as such I'm not sure why they would have been in a Cavalry barracks ??? Will need to do a bit more digging!
Mick ;)
-
I checked back on the census and he is listed as Baker Creed Russell. I left out the middle name when I noted him.
Dorothy
-
I checked back on the census and he is listed as Baker Creed Russell
Great stuff!! see?,we're getting somewhere now! :)
Mick ;)
-
The movements of the 1st and 2nd battalions don't really help much ???
1st Battalion
1857 Sepoy rebellion
1859 India
1863 NW Frontier
1870 Aden
1870 England
2nd Battallion
1858 Gibraltar
1863 Malta
1865 Canada
I'm sure we'll get there! ;D
Mick ;)
-
Is a Battalion made up of many regiments? or is a battalion another name for a regiment? Forgive me this military stuff is totally unfamiliar!
Thanks again!
Dorothy
-
Hi Dorothy,
Infantry regiments were divided into two battalions with each battalion having four companies.One battalion usually served overseas whilst the other stayed at home,unless there was a conflict when both battalions could be sent.Each battalion had a strength of approx 1000 men.
Of the two battalions of the 7th foot,I think it more likely that it was the 2nd battalion that was at Walmer because the 1st were in India before and after that date and I can't see that they would have brought a battalion home from there only to send them out again!The 2nd battalion might have been there in transit between Gibralter and Malta.
I did find this about the movements of the 7th foot;
'Periods in garrisons and tours of duty both at home and abroad followed. The Crimean War saw the 7th as part of the Light Division at the Battle of the Alma 1854 where they won great renown. In all, the 7th won five Victoria Crosses during the Crimean War. The Indian Mutiny followed (1857/8), with the 7th arriving from England in December 1857. In 1863 the 1st Battalion of the 7th were on the North West Frontier of India and the 2nd Battalion went to Canada 1866-1870 where they were involved in dealing with the Fenian Raids.'
Unfortunately, I don't have access to the census returns so I can't look at them with a view to working out how many other units,if any,were at Walmer in 1861.I think that maybe we have to break the golden rule and 'assume' that Charles was in the 7th foot and possibly the 2nd battalion,given the information we have so far.
Regards,Mick ;)
-
Hi Dorothy,
I'll have to ask you to do a bit more detective work with the 1861 census.Below I have posted the 7th Foot entry from the 1860 Harts army list (I hope it's not to big!), it lists all of the officers of the regiment in service at that time.The number on the immediate left of each man's name is the battalion he was in,either 1 or 2.
It's really looking good for the 2nd btn of the 7th foot being at Walmer in 1861!! If you look at the bottom of page two it actually mentions that the 2nd battalion's home depot was..............wait for it...............Walmer ;)!!!so I really think that we might be in the ball park with this one.
Could you look at the census and see if the majority of officers listed are from the 2nd? bear in mind that there might have been promotions,so a lieutenant in 1860 might have been promoted to Captain by 1861,even so,we have their full names.I see that Capt Baker Creed Russel is listed as 2nd btn as is Vincent Upton Langworthy on page 2 although he was an Ensign in 1860.
It will be interesting to know how you get on.
Regards,Mick ;)
-
and here's Page 2.
Mick ;)
-
The only names I see that match that list of officers in the 2nd are Russell,
Langworthy and Griffith. Searched the 61 for some of the other officers names in the 2nd on that list and they don't come up in that Barracks.
Dorothy
-
That is a bit of a blow! :-\
Never mind,all is not lost.The 1861 census was taken on the night of April 7th,I found this in the Times of April 27th 1861.
'Yesterday orders were recieved at Chatham by Col.Jervis,commanding the 1st battalion of infantry,directing the depot of the 1st battalion 7th Royal Fusiliers,under the command of Capt.Lord.R.H.Browne,to be held in readiness to proceed from that garrison to Walmer,to join the 6th depot battalion at that station.The headquarters of the 1st battalion Royal Fusiliers are now in India.'
I think that the depot battalions were the training battalions for the regiment,but I'm not absolutely certain.
Lots of new recruits were needed at the end of the 1850's because of the losses sustained both in the Crimea and the Indian mutiny and the 1st battalion took part in both.So maybe the officers and men that were at Walmer on census night were from the 1st battalion, maybe there were some men of both battalions there,I'm really not sure,and with the resources I have it's about as close as I can get I'm afraid.Whether he was in the 1st or the 2nd battalion,I'm as sure as I can be that he was with the 7th Foot. :)
It is possible to find out where regiments were at any given time as the the army kept monthly returns for all regiments, but it requires a visit to the national archives at Kew. :-\
Regards,Mick ;)
-
I can't thank you enough! You're a goldmine!
Dorothy
-
No problem Dorothy!
Always happy to help when I can. :)
All the best,
Mick ;)
-
Hi Dorothy & Mick
I have been watching with interest, and one other thing occurred to me, although I will say at the outset that the National Archives baffles me :)
On their guide to resources, if I read it right, it says that they list men by unit and then my name between 1855-72 ???
Heres the link. I was wondering how difficult, if the light of what you have found out to date, would it be to find his Service Record ?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm
Wendi
-
I was wondering how difficult, if the light of what you have found out to date, would it be to find his Service Record ?
Hi Wendi,
A search of TNA's catalogue in WO97 for soldiers discharge documents,which is one of the first places I would usually look, won't show him because, as I understand it,they have only been indexed up until the mid 1850's :-\ so it would either have to be a personal visit to TNA or hiring a researcher as there are many other mens records in WO97 that aren't listed in the online catalogue.
Given the information we have so far and nothing else,I would be looking for him first in the records of the 7th Foot.If his papers aren't in WO97 there are other ways to put together a record of his service.I've had a look at TNA's holdings for the 7th Foot and they seem to be all there for the years we're after,most useful would be the muster rolls and description books.
Regards,Mick ;)
-
A bit of useful info about the records in WO97 which contain the army papers for men discharged to a pension. :)
From 1760 to 1854 (WO 97/1-1271) and 1855 to 1872 (WO 97/1272-1721) records are filed by regiment and then alphabeticaly by surname.
From 1873 to 1882 (WO97/1722-2171) records are filed by group,that is Cavalry,Artillery,Engineers,Foot Guards and finally Infantry,records are then arranged by surname.
From 1883 to 1900 (WO 97/2172-4231) and 1900 to 1913 (WO97/4232-6322) all records are filed by surname regardless of unit.
Hope this helps,
Mick ;)
-
It is possible to find out where regiments were at any given time as the the army kept monthly returns for all regiments, but it requires a visit to the national archives at Kew. :-\
Thanks for that Mick, a visit to Kew at least look promising doesn't it ;D
Wendi
-
It is possible to find out where regiments were at any given time as the the army kept monthly returns for all regiments, but it requires a visit to the national archives at Kew. :-\
Thanks for that Mick, a visit to Kew at least look promising doesn't it ;D
Definately,if you can get there! I'm like a kid in a toy shop whenever I go to TNA!! ;D
The monthly returns for a regiment,which included their location,can be found in the muster rolls.Most records up until 1878 are in WO12, but those for the Artillery,Engineers and other corps are in WO10,11,14 and 15.Muster rolls were quarterly,each usually recording three 'monthly' returns.They note a units location and lists officers and soldiers names,ranks ,pay,dates of enlistment,discharge or death,punishments,time spent in hospital or other abscence from the regiment.The last muster roll on which a man appears should give a reason for the end of his service.
Regards,Mick ;)
-
Ok, I'm back again LOL. What if my Charles Bailey is a deserter? Will the regiment record say that or will he just disappear without explanation from the roles?
Dorothy
-
What if my Charles Bailey is a deserter?
Hi Dorothy,
The harsh conditions and discipline did cause a lot of men to desert from the army.From 1799 until 1852 there is a register of deserters at the national archives,they are in WO25 and filed by regiment.They note a mans age and description and also the dates and places of enlistment and desertion.Trouble is,your man was in the army in 1861 :-\ and I'm not too sure if a deserters register exists after 1852,I'll see if I can find out for you.
If your man did desert,it will certainly be noted on his record.The description books that I mentioned earlier described the men in enough detail for them to be identified if they deserted,hence the name. :)
Regards,Mick ;)
-
Hi Dorothy,
Put us out of our misery Please :)
What is your fascination with Charles?
Wendi ;D
-
Hi Mick!
I wonder if Mack has access to the Police Gazette for those years - maybe you could ask him if he doesn't pick up this thread!
Army: Deserters
There is an incomplete card index at The National Archives to army deserters (1689-1830), compiled from bounty certificates of rewards paid out of locally-collected taxes to those who had turned the deserter in. The index covers only rewards paid out in London and Middlesex (from E 182/594 to E 182/673 ) and in Bedfordshire, Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Cambridgeshire and Cheshire (E 182/2 to E 182/114 ). The main part of the index is of deserters, giving date and regiment:, as well as a reference to E 182 by piece number and sub-number. There is also a sequence by county, as well as cross-references from entries like "Dragoons", "Fencibles" and "Militia" to the main sequence. If you order one of these E 182 references, you will get one or more large boxes of tax documents, with no obvious clue as to where the bounty certificates will be. Look amongst the many unwrapped bundles of documents for a bundle wrapped up in linsen paper (a stiff brown paper).
There are registers of deserters, 1811-1852, in WO 25/2906 to WO 25/2934 . Until 1827 they are kept in three series, for cavalry, infantry and militia (the latter up to 1820 only). After 1827 they are arranged by regiment. These registers give descriptions, dates and place of enlistment and desertion, and outcome. There are registers of captured deserters, 1813-1845, in WO 25/2935 to WO 25/2951 , with indexes up to 1833 in WO 25/2952 , WO 25/2953 , and WO 25/2954 . Deserters who surrendered themselves under proclamation, 1803-1815, are in WO 25/2955 . On capture, some deserters were sentenced to imprisonment on the Savoy hulk: there are unindexed registers for the hulk, 1799-1823 (WO 25/2956 ).
Local newspapers and (for 1828 to 1845) the police newspapers Hue and Cry and the Police Gazette carried details of deserters, giving name, parish and county of birth, regiment, date and place of desertion, a physical description and other relevant information. For deserters in Australia (HO 75 ), consult Y Fitzmaurice, Army Deserters from HM Service (Forest Hill, Victoria, 1988)
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=23&j=1
But Dorothy - what makes you think he was a deserter ???
Annie ::)
-
Dear Helpers!
I suspect that my great grandfather Charles Davies was an army deserter who changed his name and eventually brought his whole family to the US. There are a variety of family legend reasons and the fact that his sister's death certificate listed her maiden name as Bailey. My mother is definitely not talking. Very upset with me for wanting to know and I am determined to find out. This Charles Bailey fits my criteria so far. If he were a deserter I think I may be hot!
Thanks everyone! you are great!
Dorothy
-
So Dorothy it's not going to be an easy visit to The National Archives (UK Limited) is it :D
Dorothy, and anyone else who is watching - I'm on a mission to encourage everyone to loosely fill in their Location on their profiles - it makes it much easier for us to answer questions pertinent to your geographical location.
Like suggesting that you persue your research at Kew in the immediate future, is it ??? ::)
-
Wendi-
I guess what I should be asking you all is if you can recommend an honest researcher, LOL. How do you know who to ask? What if they charge you for hours and hours? Would it take hours and hours to research a very specific person in a certain regiment? If you were an expert? I have no idea and I don't have unlimited funds, LOL.
Dorothy
-
Hi Dorothy!
Maybe you could read this - it may give you some ideas!!
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/gettingstarted/paid_research.htm?source=ddmenu_research7
Annie :)
-
Thanks -
Looks a little steep. May have to wait longer....so close yet so far LOL. Saving all my money at the moment for a trip to England and Ireland in June! Wish I could have enough time to attempt searching myself but that is not feasible.
Dorothy