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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: PatrickSullivan on Monday 20 February 06 20:03 GMT (UK)
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Can someone please tell me if all the Irish that came to Wales in the 1800s would have been registered somehow, perhpaps leaving Ireland, on the boat across or on arrival?
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If only, Patrick!!
;D
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So, I take it that there are no records of any kind of the Irish leaving Cork and landing in one of the ports of South Wales during this time. They have records of arrivals in the USA and Canada, so why not for us?
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I can't explain why, it must not have been deemed necessary.
I read a report recently (that Christopher posted), stating that cattle came first and passengers were squeezed in after!
It all adds to the confusion that is researching Irish ancestors - I have 3 lots of my own and very little progress to report.
I wish you luck, though, and if we can be of any assistance, please shout
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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I can't explain why, it must not have been deemed necessary.
I read a report recently (that Christopher posted), stating that cattle came first and passengers were squeezed in after!It all adds to the confusion that is researching Irish ancestors - I have 3 lots of my own and very little progress to report.I wish you luck, though, and if we can be of any assistance, please shout
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
Hi,I have just seen this post.I also have this problem only my rellies came from Wales to Dublin,the boats Christopher mentioned were actually cattle boats
and i'd say originally meant for that purpose .the whole of Ireland then was
ruled by Britain and so people traveling to England ,Scotland or Wales would be treated the same as someone traveling between Wales and England or Scotland to Wales,even today passports are not needed but a lot of people would have them for photo i.d. to collect airline tickets e.t.c. the Republic of Ireland became independent in 1922.
regards.anne
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R.T.Price's book 'Little Ireland' deals with the Irish in Victorian Swansea and includes a name listing for part of the period. What name(s) are you looking for? The book is available from the West Glamorgan Archive Office - I have a copy.
Bernard
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My great-grandmother's family came from Cobh in County Cork, in those days it was called Queenstown. Her eldest child was born in Cobh in 1855, her second child and all subsequent children including my grandmother were all born in Cardiff. I would imagine that to travel from Ireland, then part of the United Kingdom, to anywhere else in the UK was just a matter of buying a ticket with no identity checks being carried out a bit like getting on a train or bus.
In the 18th century and in deed earlier if you were not directly descended from one of the Norman lords or possibly one of the Anglo-Saxon gentry you were a nobody to be treated as one of the herd along with the sheep and cattle. Even the speaking of your native language Welsh or Irish for example was banned by law.
I for one am proud of my Celtic roots.
Pete :)
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I, too, have Irish ancestors who migrated to Wales ~ indeed, I share some of them with Peter, above (Hi!).
I understand that Treforest was a particularly popular place for the Irish to settle ~ does anyone know, please, if there are any books on this?
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Hi all,
my g,grandparents also came from Ireland to Wales.
I have recently visited their birthplace in Bandon,Co,Cork , and it
made me think how long it took them to get to Cardiff (where they settled).
There were no busses or trains in the 1850's,so the journey must have been quite grueling!
My family ended up in the Canton area,and if you look at the website,
Gathering the jewels--you will see a photograph of Halket Street,Canton.
This is where my both sets of Irish ancestors ended up living.
There has been a lot written about the Irish in Newtown,Cardiff,but I
believe there was quite a big community in Canton.
Anyone know of any books.
Cheers
MM
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Not sure if this will help:
http://www.uwp.co.uk/holding_frame.html
Bernard
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Hi Bernard,
thanks for the tip,but what should i type in the search box.
MM
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If you double click on the 'link' it should take you right to the page you need. From there choose 'book search' and you'll find some categories - take 19th - 20 th century and plod through the lists - I think its the middle set - there is one book on Wales and the Irish.
Bernard
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Immigration and Integration:
The Irish in Wales, 1798-1922
Paul O'Leary
‘This scholarly analysis of the fate of the Irish immigrants who came to this country mainly during the nineteenth century, is also an invaluable contribution to the history of Wales and the Welsh.’ (New Welsh Review)
‘ . . . this well-written book represents a valuable addition both to the social and religious history of Victorian Wales and the wider study of the Irish in Britain.’ (English Historical Review)
~ Paul O'Leary is a lecturer in the Department of History and Welsh History at University of Wales, Aberystwyth. He has written several articles on Irish immigrants in Wales and is co-author of Wales of One Hundred Years Ago (1999).
http://www.uwp.co.uk/holding_frame.html
I'll have to look out for that one! Thanks!
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Hi
I'm completely stuck with my Connolly/Connellys that originated from bandon, Co Cork and settled in Merthyr Tydfil. They moved sometime to Wales after 1881 but before 1891. I am looking for Patrick and Catherine Connolly b 1846, with children of Edward b1872 in Bandon, Daniel b 1874, Mary b 1877 and Ptrick b1880, all in Ireland. I have written to the Monsignier of Bandon parish and although Edward states in later census Bandon was his birth place there are no records of any of the childrens births/basptisms nor the marriage of Patrick and Ellen ???
Moderator's Note: other thread here- please reply to that thread with any information or suggestions for zozo
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,335406.msg2150319.html#msg2150319
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hi
my maternal line of dempsey's arrived in cardiff in approx 1852
unfortunately on the censuses it only states from ireland
my paternal side of my family are all irish from counties kerry
and longord
i too am proud of my celtic roots and also in awe of the struggles they
endured
berni
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I a researching Sullivan too but its a lost cause unless you have any family parish records for Ireland.
All Irish records were demolished in when the Dublin Records office was destroyed during the troubles as they call them
Two useful web site I found where there is a lot of info :-
http.//www.ballinagree.freeservers.com
http.//www.newtown.org.cardiff
Records passports you must be joking???
Hundreds of immigrants fleeing the famine in the 1840's were used as ballast in boats returning to Wales after off loading their cargo, totally illegal of course. They were then dumped overboard when they got near to the South Wales Coastal ports and were forced to walk ashore to start a new life. Courageuos helpless people
I wish you luck., if you find Humphrey Sullivan of Cardiff let me know
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I am also stuck on my Irish roots the Lane family they came over from Ireland by 1841,Censuses just state birthplace Ireland for Michael Lane.They settled in the Seaside area of Llanelli right where the docks were.The area was very poor have seen an exhibition of old photos in my local library the area was nicknamed "Little Ireland "back then due to the number of Irish that settled in that area of Llanelli.
And am now totally stuck
Came across this while researching,The Great Irish Potato Famine of the 1840’s is now recognized as the worst human disaster of 19th century Europe. In 1841 the population of Ireland was 8.5 million people. By 1850, at least one million died in terrible conditions. Another million emigrated as refugees
Sadly reading two old books of Llanelli at first the Irish were not welcome at all.Dont think Wales was their promised land back then
Welsh Lady
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Thanks to joining today, Jim has helped me to trace my great, great grandmother Mary Ann Condon to Merthyr in Wales. I believe that he originated from Wicklow in Southern Ireland. She then moved to Portsmouth and there met and married my great grandfather before moving back later tro West Cornwall.
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They were then dumped overboard when they got near to the South Wales Coastal ports and were forced to walk ashore to start a new life. Courageuos helpless people
I wish you luck., if you find Humphrey Sullivan of Cardiff let me know
My family were luckier, they came to Cardif in the mid 1890's as my grandfather was a merchant seaman although on my mother's Welsh side I have a gg grandmother from Cork that was in the Newtown area of Cardiff which I believe was a bit of an Irish ghetto, correct me if I am wrong.
The Irish who were dumped off the ships where ever the tide level was were known locally (Newport) as the Mud Crawlers and I wonder how many of those died getting to land if they couldn't beat the tide coming in.
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I was so pleased that am not the only one who who's Irish relatives arrived in Wales to settle from Kerry in Ireland.
My grand father Patrick Moore was in the Munster Fusiliers in WW1 and settled in Treforrest ( like Tricia 2) when he was repatriated after being a POW for 4 years in France. Can anyone tell me if there is a connection with Kerry or Treforrest and the Marquis of Bute ? My grandfather worked for the Marquis at Dumfries House in Ayrshire after the War and I would love to know how this may have happened.
I am also very proud of my Celtic roots !
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Can ANYONE help me out here. I have reason to believe some of my family went to Wales. James, John or Catherine Allen, maybe spelled Allan. I dont know what direction to go to.
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Hi April
We could do with more information in order to help you. What dates are we talking about & did they travel from Ireland? Why do you think they went to Wales - do you have census information?
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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My Irish ancestors settled in Swansea. My ggfather James and his wife Margaret Coltis emigrated between 1886 and 1888. So far I have not traced them definitively in county Waterford (their home place), but family tradition has it that the family came from Bunmahon, Ballyristeen, and I know from the marriage of James and Margaret that their fathers were Patrick Fleming and Thomas Coltis.
Coltis seems to be an unusual name. The only othe records of it in Waterford or Swansea that I can find have been a few marriages on IGI at the time period to potentially be Margarets siblings.
Margaret returned to Waterford in 1900 to have her 6th child, while James went over to the USA (allegedly) to join his brothers Philip and Michael who were copper mining in Butte, Montana. Margaret died of puerperal infection, James was home in time to register her death, and the bby (Katie/Catherine) disappears until her marriage in 1920.
James remarried and had a further 6 children.
I would dearly love to find anything about the Coltis family who are so elusive, as well as Flemings in Bunmahon area. I have found a death for a Patrick Fleming in Bunmahon, as registered by his wife, Bridget, and Partick and Bridget were names used in our family (along with every other Irish family of the time I suspect).
I don't suppose anyone else has any connection to Coltis?
Jill
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Wow how interesting to read the postings.
My husband ancestorys where Thomas McCarthy born
1849 Cork died September Qtr 1888 Cardiff Occupation . A shipwright.
Married to Hannah Barrett born 1853, March Qtr 1873 in Cardiff.
|In 1881 lived 18 Tyndel Street, Cardiff Glamorgan.
If there is any more information regarding Thomas or his wife Iwould be grateful
Many thanks
Heddwch
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Hi
Welsh Jen posted this site
http://www.anecdotalcity.com/web/irish_stevemurphy4.html
cheers cardiff :)
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sorry for the late reply to your posting
I know my grand father was in Pontypridd in 1914 as that was the year he married my grandmother. He then went on to fight in WW1 but was a POW for 4 years and he did not return til 1918 He joined the Munster Fusiliers in Kerry Ireland .As I said in a previous post, Patrick worked for the Marquis of Bute at his estate at Dumfries House in Ayrshire Scotland.
What has always intrigued me is, how did path begin ?
From Kerry, Ireland to marrying in South Wales . On to Scotland to the Marquis of Bute then settling in Treforrest after the war as an army pensioner.
There must be some sort of connection. Does any other Roots Chatters have any ideas?
Thank you
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I
Marquest of Bute owned most of Cardiff he built the docks in Cardiff.
So its not suprising that your grandfather came to South Wales. It would not suprise me if the Bute family also had intrests in Ireland.
Suggest you look at the Bute family it may will give you an idea of why he took the path he did!
cheers cardiff :)
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Just like to suggest that re: Irish ancestors to Wales or anywhere else:to locate family information = look in Scotland, as the Irish and Scots travelled to and fro and if you can even find 1 ancestor from Ireland there will shed an avalanche of information especially after 1855, altho I found the County/City of my Irish ancestor in the 1851 Glasgow Census. The USA also has great amounts of accessible info. Their most recent Census 1930 and a partial 1940. Canada's 1911 for all Provinces with the additional 1916 Census of the Prairie Provinces of Alberta /Saskatchewan. Quebec and Ontario and the Maritimes a lot of accessible data. With one of my brickwall kin I really must think outside the box . Its like a dripping faucet a little bit at a time. Good Luck all.
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can anyone tell me if there are any records of the irish who emmigrated to Merthyr Tydfil. I am helping a friend research her family and it is proving to be very difficult. we are going to join the Glamorgan family history society, and on sending a email to the secretary she mentioned there had been some research done on the irish in merthyr Tydfil, but looking on the site I can't find anything relating to this research. My friends family are MURPHY/REGAN/GRAHAM/ LEWIS/JAMES , and there are thousands of them. would be most grateful for any information regards carol99
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Hi Carol99 - welcome to Rootschat :)
I hope you get some ideas on this thread but if not, it might be a good idea to start a new thread on the Glamorgan Requests board. If you are researching backwards, it is helpful to post details of the earliest ancestors your friend knows about. Mention anything that helps identify them (Irish names, like Welsh, tend to be quite common!) Also tell us what resources you have access to and which you have already examined to save duplication of effort.
Good luck!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hello I also have been looking at my husbands ancestors who came from Ireland to Cardiff, with no luck, as on the census it just says Ireland.Their name was Mcdonnel/McDonnell. My husbands great grandfather was the one who came over in about 1850s. Read somewhere that the Marquis of Bute would ship young men over to work on building Cardiff Docks. He also supplied them with housing. There was an area in Cardiff called Newtown which he owned it was about 8 streets, and the houses were practicaly full of Irish lodgers. Apparantly today this area is the Mermaid Quay. I've forgotton the website ,but I just put in Cardiff Docks and found a bit of info. It's a pity we can't go any further back on the Irish line..
Cheers Christine
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Hi Christine,
have you tried tracing the family in the census's.
Marysma
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Hi Marysma, From the censuses I know my James Mcdonnell was born in Ireland around 1831. First time I,ve got him is on the 1851 census and I've got him and his family up to the present day. I think he came over from Ireland in the late 1840's. But what part is anyones guess.
Cheers Christine
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I have two families of Irish ancestors who travelled to Wales and both ended up in Newport, Monmouthshire. I have been fortunate enough to build quite a family tree for both sides.
On Grandfather's maternal side: Fitzgerald = came from Cork (going back to 1829) and left between 1865-1868, first appearing on Welsh Census in 1871.
On Grandfather's paternal side: Murray as yet unknown location (in Ireland) of departure, as yet unknown date of departure, first appearing on Welsh Census in 1851, but GG-Grandfather born in Newport in 1845/ 1849.
I have read much of what they must have endured through their lives in Ireland; and I believe that is what helped them to survive the terrible journeys that they had to make to find better lives. I am in admiration of their hardiness and am thankful that they undertook this. Their drive is what has contributed to the good life of myself and their other descendents, and I'm proud of them for that.
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Sorry to tag onto your thread like this, but I try it on whenever I find one where there is an Irish interest - I have posted my own (without any marked success).
I have an ancestor Ledgingham Murphy who had a daughter Sophia 1778 in Chepstow. I have been unable (for about 50 years) to find anything more than this about Ledgingham.
The closest I have got is an IGI entry for 1766 St James Bristol, Walter Murphy married Mary Ledgingham.
Anyone anything to add . . . please.
peter
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Cracked it.
There was a Sophia born to a Walter Murphy and Mary in Chepstow (one of 8 of their children)
I knew Sophia was 1 of 8 but not who they were.
And Walter Murphy married Mary Ledgingham 2 years before the birth of their first child in chepstow.
Good enough for me (especially after 50 years searching).
I'm celebrating!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Hi all, just realised I'd started this post 6 years ago, I think I should join in again lol. My Sullivan family settled in Pontlottyn, Gelligaer parish, Glamorgan in the 1870s, other family surnames from that time were McCarthys, Mahonys, Miskill. There were so many Irish in Pontlottyn and numerous Sullivan families nearly all sharing the same Christian names, eg, Patrick, Michael, John, Jeremiah. I got all the records I need for this side of the water, it's the Irish records that do me in. Haven't researched family history for some years I think its about time I got back into it.
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This is an OLD thread but I'm in a similar boat! (as it were.....)
My Great Great Grandfather, Richard Mahoney, was born abt 1850 in County Cork and by 1874 was getting married in Breconshire. I'm having a shocking time trying to find solid birth info, but have just ordered his marriage certificate, so hopefully more clues there.
I'd love to know more about his life before coming to Wales but Mahoneys in County Cork..... There was no shortage! :)
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Please note that the Irish influx was primarily to mining villages where the vast majority of Welsh went to Chapel, not Mass! So if you want to find your Irish ancestors in Wales, please look for them in RC Bishop Transcripts. Where you find them listed in a Census, search for the nearest Catholic church. Monumental inscriptions do not last very long in Wales (the stones last but the inscriptions are soon covered with lichen) so Welsh research really is not something you can put off until tomorrow!
Aloha!
Rico
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Very interesting thread this! I have the same problem looking to trace family who arrived in Newport between 1840 and 1870 from Cork. They did amazingly well I think coming over and making a better life. On the Catholic Church note I wonder does anyone know if there is anywhere specific to look for unmarried mothers having babies in Cardiff? My relative, grand daughter of the Irish immigrant appears on a census aged 16 in Newport with the family, cant find her on the 1901 census - we know she had an illegitimate daughter (my great grandmother) in 1900 and then she appears again in the 1911 married in North Road, Cardiff with the illegitimate daughter and a husband and more children.
Did young catholic Irish descent girls go to convents to have illegitimate babies? Where there young mothers homes? Did these places fill in the census? Not meaning to hijack the thread
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Have you tried the local workhouse records? Also some towns had 'shelters' funded by private benefactors or charity where unmarried women could give birth and receive some assistance.
Bernard
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Irish pregnant girls were frequently sent to London to have their child. Welsh Census returns were frequently completed by people with no Welsh nor local knowledge, so finding anyone can be a challenge. The child may appear listed as someone's niece in the 1901 Census, but you could try searching for mother and daughter in English Census returns. You might also check with Glamorganshire Family History as someone else may have already completed the research for you.
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I should add that the Age of Consent was 10, so MANY daughters were sent in to domestic service around that age, resulting in an appearance in one census, but not in the next. Also, common names are difficult to sort out in Census returns, so you might try searching the YOUNGEST child listed in a Census to find that family in the next Census, or search the child with the most uncommon name. Aloha!
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Irish immigrants gained voyage how and when they could, often used as ballast for a cheaper rate than the 3d cost. When the great numbers arrived at the height of the successive famines, 1840's so great were the numbers that some ports banned immigrants so overrun were the small towns. Indeed in Cardiff masters were fined for carrying Irish, some vessels were licensed but limited to 30 souls,these rules were flouted. Officers patrolled the ports to enforce the regulations so masters took to landing passengers wherever they could, on [off] the beach at Penarth or in the estuaries, causing people to scramble over the mud flats to get access.
Many Irish headed straight for the workhouse to get immediate relief, a refuge and some food. Many avoided the workhouse as there was a period where they were turned away or returned to Ireland. The regulation was that if you weren't registered as an inhabitant you could get no relief, indoor [workhouse] or outdoor, a loan of money, food or goods to tide one over. Some never registered fearing the workhouse and the possibility of getting transported back.There was a question of convents, up to about 1830-40 there was not even a church let alone a convent, so without help expectant mothers had no recourse but to turn to the work house, mostly tho most expectant mothers feared the stigma of having their child born in the workhouse, there are cases where mothers left the workhouse and sometimes giving birth in small streets or back lanes, really!
As for records, those registered appeared on the census[town] mostly this was used for demographic purposes but usually for taxation reasons, to pay the poor tax. The Irish were loathed, feared and badly discriminated against blamed for bringing and spreading disease, undercutting wages, classed as lazy, thieves and drunkards. Much blame was laid at the Irish door, discrimination lasted as late as the 1960's, where the infamous signs 'no coloureds no Irish' were hung in lodging house windows, contrary to the opinion this was a myth. As an expert in Irish in Cardiff and coming from Little Ireland, Newtown, I witnessed these signs in the Tiger Bay/lower town area of Cardiff. For more information, you can see my facebook page 'Newtown and the Irish in Cardiff' or there is an official Newtown Association, website. Information is free!