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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Andy001 on Sunday 19 February 06 12:48 GMT (UK)
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I found my Gt Grandad,Walter Byron on the 1901 census,living at Portugal st, Manchester RG13/3740 with his wife Mary ann,her daughter Catherine Clancy,and their children Francis Charles Byron,Walter Byron and Ethel Byron.
His birthplace was Birmingham and he was born around 1874.
I've also got his marriage certificate from 1896-also in Manchester,where his father is named as William Byron a tailor (his age also puts his birth year as circa 1874)
I can find no trace of him anywhere else-he isn't on the GRO birth indexes and I can't find him on the 1881 or 1891 census either.
Can anyone help?
Thanks,Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
there does seem to be a mystery here.
1) 1881 census has a Thomas H (should be A- Allchurch) Adams and Martha Adams in Salford with their children including 'son' Francis C Byrom (note m not n) born Birmingham - see RG11 Piece / Folio 3969 / 112 Page Number 30 - a coincidence!
2) This Francis C Byron (n) is in free BMD- 1870 births Francis Charles Byron, Birmingham vol.6d pg 95 but I can't find him in 1871 census.
3) In 1891 census this Francis is a french polisher in lodgings. He disappears in 1901 but your Walter is a joiner (I think) and strangely enough so is Thomas.
4) Thomas and Martha Shaw are from Dudley area and were married 1870 (freee BMD)
The Adams do not seem to have an obvious connection to Francis or Walter! The 1881 has 'son' but it is scribbled over- it may have said daughter because of Francis/es.
Lastly, if you search Francis Byron/m in Family Search - it is quite a popular name in Dudley albeit not at the time you are interested in.
All this may be entirely coincidental. I have also looked for WIlliam Byron - to no avail as yet.
best wishes
Heywood
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Hello Andrea,
I have found a candidate, but it really is difficult to read the name in 1881 & in 1891.
You could convince yourself that it says Byron- or that it doesn't say Byron. Do you have access to the images themselves?
Further detailed research may prove it one way or another!
1881
RG 11/ Piece 2982/ Folio 23
Civil parish: Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Martin
transcribed as Byrnes
Head: John Conley, 68, General labourer, born Ireland
Son-in-law: William Byron (?) 37, House Painter, Born Birmingham
Wife: Anne Byron, 32, Born Ireland
Children:
Maria 12
Kate 10
William 8
Annie 5
Walter 2
George 4 months
......................................................................................................
1891-same family, but only siblings ( :-\)
RG 12/ Piece 2353/ Folio 102
Civil parish: Kings Norton
County: Worcestershire
Registration district: Kings Norton
Sub-registration District: Kings Norton
transcribed as Bynner
Head: William Byron (?) aged 18, Wood worker, born Birmingham
Sister: Maria 22, Housekeeper
Sister: Kate 20, French polisher
Sister: Annie 15, French polisher
..........................................................................................................
I hope that these people turn out to be the right folks.
There seem to be some candidates for the second marriage of Anne Byron.
Perhaps she is living with the 2 youngest children under her new married name.
It's a pity that the father William is not a tailor, and Walter is a little younger than you were expecting.
But perhaps the best bet yet!
UKgirl
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Strangely enough, there seem to be a pair of missing Byrons at some sort of home/school in London.
The missing Walter & George Byron ???
Heavens knows whether the Walter that I have found is yours or not, but I think that these 2 boys are definitely the missing siblings of Kate & Maria etc.
RG 12/ Piece 1120/ Folio 90
Civil parish: Watford
County: Hertfordshire
Registration district: Watford
Sub-registration district: Watford
St. Pancras School
clearly transcribed as Byron
George Byron 10 (or 11?) inmate
Walter Byron 12 inmate
Birthplace is just London Pancras "ditto" for whole page- probably not correct for any of the children.
Perhaps it is a school/home for orphans?
Perhaps both parents are dead :'(
Just a thought, but if his parents died when he was young, perhaps the father's occupation that he put on his marriage certificate is not actually correct.
Ukgirl
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Thanks for those,UKgirl and Heywood.
Firstly,UKgirl those Byrnes were one of my first findings-and still in my folder of Possibles! I only had them 1881 though,Thanks.
Secondly,Heywood-Exactly what I have come up with!!!! I was hoping that if someone didn't find a very obvious Walter,they would find Francis Charles without me mentioning him!!
I don't think Thomas Allchurch Adams married Martha Shaw in 1870,but Mary Ann Lloyd-the other on the page.I found him on 1871 married to a Mary ann,living in Dudley wood.
Francis Charles' Birth certificate shows his mum as Patti (formerly Hickman),which I'm told is another name for Martha!!!
Thanks to people on here and GR I know where Patti was in 1851.1861 and 1871.
Though in 1871 she is Patti BRYAN-with a husband called George
FC Byrons birth+marriage certs list his dad as Charles!!!!
ANYWAY,back to Walter-I think Francis's mum 'married' Thomas Adams
although there are no records of it.In 1891 though,they are living in Stockport with a son called Walter-though his last name is Adams,he is the right age.
Francis was in Salford in 1901,The Adams's were nearby.
I hoped to find Martha Hicmans marriage to a Byron but have found none.I can't find her marriage to Thomas Adams either to connect her,Francis and Walter.
Any suggestions anyone?
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Charles Byron's occupation on Francis's birth cert was 'Clothiers Salesman',he was just 'Salesman' on his wedding cert.
George 'Bryan' was a Woolen Draper on 1871
Walter was a joiner,/labourer,his wifes dad really was a tailor,maybe he lied.
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Regarding St. Pancras school:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/
choose from left panel:
English Poor Law Unions
then:
London: Middlesex
then:
St. Pancras
........................
The information says that in 1868, the St. Pancras Guardians embarked on the erection of a new industrial school for pauper children in the parish. They acquired a 38-acre site in a rural location at LEAVESDEN to the north of Abbots Langley.
And there is an 1895 map showing it. And a 1905 photo of it. Looks pretty spendid, to me :)
There were 678 children.
And you'll be pleased to know that by 1896, at least, talking was freely encouraged ??? You'll be further relieved to know that "Any child still hungry at the end of a meal could raise their hand for extra bread" ;D
There were swimming lessons with a "drillmaster" and the "elder boys were allowed to go picnicking in Bricket Woods" (I wonder what mischief they got up to there ::) )
All fascinating stuff. Could do with a holiday there, myself!!
I wonder if there are any vacancies??
Ukgirl
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At least some bits are being tied together! I have found similar things with occupations- I suppose if you don't know your dad or they're dead - what does it matter what the occupation is- they perhaps thought along those lines!
It is complicated though isn't it - I had to read the explanations a couple of times -and am still a bit puzzled- Martha must have been very young when she had Francis- is that right- then 'married' Thomas?
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Don't worry- it's becoming clearer now!! She would not have been that young!
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Martha Hickman-if she is Martha Byron/Bryan/Adams was born 1848/9
I forgot to say-Walter Adams wasn't with them in 1881,so even if he isn't my Walter Byron he was still Francis's half/step brother and missing!!!! Quite a coincidence that they are both missing!?
I found a couple of Walter Adams born in Dudley,one was born 1876 and he was in an orphanage in Islington.
George 'Bryan' was born in Middlesex!!!
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Didn't I find Francis with them in 1881 in Salford? But no Walter.
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Yes!!!
That's why I wasn't that sure about my Francis being his brother theory at first,and I left it for a few months,but a few weeks ago,I decided to see where Martha and Thomas had got to in 1891 and I nearly fell off my chair when they had aquired a son called Walter,of the right age !!! They also aquired a 19 year old son called Thomas in 1901!!! Their birthplaces are all mixed up,one census some kids are born Salford,the next Dudley.I think the enumerator did too many Ditto's! But Of course checking on the indexes there are people of the same name born in Dudley and Salford in the same year!
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Andrea, I just took this up again- thinking I'd have a scout round for Charles ther mysterious dad.
In looking at deaths I find:
Francis Charles Byron 1896 0 yrs Salford - do you have this death - obviously somewhere in the family.
Heywood
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Hello Andrea,
Of course excluding something is often as important as finding something, just to clear the field of possibilities.
So, this should help, with regard to the above family that I suggested.
1871
RG 10/ Piece 3104/Folio 29
Civil parish: Birmingham
County: Warwickshire
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St. Martin
transcribed as Byroner
Head: William Byron (?) (crossed out and then clearly written above as Bynner)
Wife: Annie
daughter: Maria 2
daughter: Catherine 9 months
Armed with this new information, I then found their children registered as born in Birmingham under the name of:
Bynner
Catherine Sep 1870
William Henry Dec 1872
Annie Theresa Jun 1875
George Sidney Dec 1880
except for Walter:
Bynnes
Walter John Sep 1878
MARRIAGE: Bynner Walter John in Jun 1903 in Kings Norton.
So, I think that you can now remove this family from your "folder of possibilities" as it were and safely chuck them in the dustbin.
So, that's good news, I think.
It certainly whittles the choices down.
Hope it helps you.
UKgirl
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Hello again:
FREE WEST MIDLANDS BMD: (similar to Free Lancashire BMD)
Confirmation of marriage:
1870
ADAMS Thomas A and LLOYD Mary A married at St. James, Dudley
Registers at Dudley
Ref: 202/005/375
(If it would help to unravel the plot, perhaps some kind soul could check this marriage for you in the St. James Parish Records of a library.)
UKgirl
You may be able to track down some of your other mystery marriages like this.
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I think I've just found Walter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I looked on ancestry for Martha Hickman's mum in 1881,and she was with one of her other daughters,who had a nephew called.........Walter Hickman age 6!!!
So,very possible? ;D
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That sounds very likely - hope so but why Byron?? Perhaps he will be named as the father on the certificate?
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Well Andrea,
It certainly sounds too good to be true.
From the West Midlands Free BMD for Dudley, there are plenty of Hickmans, and 2 named Walter, 1874 and 1876.
This must be the most complicated trail ever if your theory is correct- a male with a different family name on every Census!!
There's still a lot of unraveling to do!!
The key may lie in the 1861/1871 Census for the Hickman family. You, may find Walter's mother.
UKgirl
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Just to upset you, there is another Walter Hickman "grandson" born in the Dudley Union workhouse!
With your theory, both may be possibilities!! This one is 7 years old!!
1881 Civil Parish Sedgley
Head: William Hickman Mar 58
Wife: Kyiah Hickman 58
son of wife: Samuel Thomas 23
last Hickman's grandson: Walter Hickman 7 born in Dudley Union
ditto : Benjamin Hickman 3 born in Dudley Union
Born in Dudley Union would suggest a single mother and may explain a change of name in later life.
The writing is unusual and the "H" looks like a "D", but all the H's on the page eg Henry/ Harriet look the same.
UKgirl
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Hello Again,It certainly has been a really difficult one and I wouldn't have been able to do it without loads of help!THANKS ;D
I don't think I'll ever know for sure,but since I'm now not the only one to match Francis Charles with Walter I think this is the closest I'll get.It was just a bit of a mad theory,but to find a Walter with the same family twice,both the right age,is too coincidental to overlook.
I didn't come up with the idea Walter might have been a Hickman,I was just looking for Martha's mum in 1881 and couldn't believe there was a Walter with her!!!
Walter's dad could be FC's dad George/Charles or it could be Thomas Adams before him and Patti/Martha married (I've never found a marriage!!)
I think I'll send off for Walter Hickman's birth cert,see what that says,though I wouldn't be surprised if his mum was one of Martha's sisters,just to complicate it further!!!
Whatever Walter's real name was,I bet he changed it to avoid the bizzies,he tried to kill his wife with an axe and ran off and left her for dead!!!
Andy
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Hi Andrea,
Having now found Walter with granny Hickman and Pattie with George Bryan and Francis- I feel so much better!
Go for Walter's birth certificate- what the heck!
Heywood
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Yeah,what the heck,I don't even care wether he's actually 'mine' or not any more-I just wanna solve this wierd puzzle!!!
Ta for your help :)
Andy
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THE MARRIAGES
Francis Charles' Birth certificate shows his mum as Patti (formerly Hickman),which I'm told is another name for Martha!!!
Thanks to people on here and GR I know where Patti was in 1851.1861 and 1871.
Though in 1871 she is Patti BRYAN-with a husband called George
FC Byrons birth+marriage certs list his dad as Charles!!!!
I think it may yet be solved if you could just find the marriages to knit it all together.
ANYWAY,back to Walter-I think Francis's mum 'married' Thomas Adams
although there are no records of it.In 1891 though,they are living in Stockport with a son called Walter-though his last name is Adams,he is the right age.
Francis was in Salford in 1901,The Adams's were nearby.
As it is, the story is difficult to grasp with just a quick glance at the above.
(Although genius Heywood seems to have managed!!)
I hoped to find Martha Hicmans marriage to a Byron but have found none.I can't find her marriage to Thomas Adams either to connect her,Francis and Walter.
Any suggestions anyone?
Martha Hickman-if she is Martha Byron/Bryan/Adams was born 1848/9
Why don't you clearly list the necessary marriages needed and the time frames, and then someone may come up with something.
I have the British Vital Records Index. There may (or unfortunately, probably won't!) be something there that matches. The good thing about it is that it brings up good alternative spellings.
.......................................................................................................................................................................
.......................................................................................................................................................................
LITTLE WALTER
I think I've just found Walter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I looked on ancestry for Martha Hickman's mum in 1881,and she was with one of her other daughters,who had a nephew called.........Walter Hickman age 6!!!
There is another Walter Hickman "grandson" born in the Dudley Union workhouse! This one is 7 years old!!
Born in Dudley Union would suggest a single mother and may explain a change of name in later life.
Since I found the other Walter Hickman born in Dudley Union, probably with no father's name, it may be difficult to know which is which when you send off for the certificate- or rather, after you receive the certificate ???
Or have I seriously lost the plot here?
And does the whole theory hinge on the assumption that the names "Pattie" and "Martha" are interchangeable?
Is that really true, or did someone else come up with that to make the pieces fit?
What about Pattie simply being short for Patience?
There is a Patience Hickman who married a William Hickman in 1874. :P
Can she be squeezed into the picture somewhere? At the very least it is evidence that the name "Patience" was used in the family.
Yes, I know, I should just probably just stay quiet :-X
Oh well.......... just trying to remove alternative theories to help you get the pieces in their correct place ;D
Looking forward to reading the plot in chronological order, so that we simpletons can grasp it ;)
UKgirl
PS. I have just checked the genealogy.about.com site and its discussion of nicknames.
Abbreviations for Martha: Marty; Matie; Mattie
Abbreviations for Martha & Matilda & Patricia & Patience: Pat; Patsy; Patty; Pattie
But as you look down the list from A to Z, it is really so very rare for a nickname to share nothing with its longer version. In 99% of cases listed, either:
starting letter is the same
the first 1/2 of the name is somehow used
the second 1/2 of the name is somehow used
there is a common syllable to both
The exceptions, such as "Daisy for Margaret" (but that's not an exception if you think of the 2 flowers' names (daisy & marguerite)) or "Polly for Mary" are really the exceptions.
And although "Pattie for Martha" is on the list, in a story like this where nothing actually fits smoothly, and everything depends on this nickname, I think I would be very dubious.
Now, on the other hand, if everything else fitted except for the name, then I think that I would run with it.
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Hi UKgirl !
Someone found Patti Bryan in 1871 for me,
the Againsts are:
the name is BRYAN instead of BYRON
the husband is George instead of Charles
the FORs are:Patti+name like Byron
Born in Dudley
son called Francis born in Birmingham in 1870
parents called Hickman
George's job was similar to Charles
ALSO when the same family were found in 1861 Patti was now called Martha UNLESS they were twins!!!!!!!!!!
I will do what you suggested and put the marriageson here that need to be found ( I'll list them now and may do a new post later)
Here are the time frames for the marriages:
Patti/Martha Hickman + Charles/George(will accept William!!!!) Bryan/Byron
Martha was born 1848/9 and her son was born Jan 1870
Walter was born 1874-don't yet know father.
Martha was living with Thomas Allchurch Adams in 1881,there was a daughter,Blanche (might be just Thomas's) born 1878 Salford,the next child was Thomas born after the 1881 census-1882
I have done a lot of searching for these,but with all the name changes and ways to spell/misspell Byron (Biron,Byrom,Byrem,Byram,Bryan,Brian,Bryon etc etc) it's a nightmare!!!!
So,any help is VERY much appreciated!!
Andy
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Righto UKgirl - time to re-evaluate- I'm going to have one last go!! I'm bothered now because Thomas Allchurch Adams has been mentioned and thought that in the dim and distant past he had been discounted!! Need to jot and doodle here!
Heywood
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Hi to you both-
I've spent HOURS searching and cannot come to any more conclusions than Walter Hickman is the best bet to go for. Mr and Mrs Hickman seemed to have several daughters so there is a possibility that Martha is not the mum but you have to eliminate her. There is also the chance that she took him in anyway! Can't find Thomas anywhere before 1901 and Francis has disappeared in 1901 as far as I can see but didn't search too much.
There are so many possibilities here with names/marriages/relationships that the sensible thing is to go for something -certificate which MIGHT tell the truth (mmm..).
Best of luck- it's been fun!
Kath
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We need help with the image.
I've been taking a closer look at the 1881 Census in Salford, and I think it says something of relevance in that crossed out squiggly bit.
Could it say "Late sister's son"....or something like that. I am sure that there's one of those words that has been abbreviated with little letters added in a high place and then underlined, to the left of the word son.
~~~~~~~~--------------------------
And, I feel sure that Pattie & Martha are different people.
In 1871, George Bryan is listed as lodger crossed out to visitor.
But Pattie is listed as "wife" (of course this is incorrect, since the Census shows "relation to head of the family")
I guess it should say "wife of visitor".
I am sure that if she was Adam's daughter, it would simply say "daughter", and next to George it would say "son-in-law".
The Enumerator knew about the word "son-in-law" because he uses it lower down the page. Although that too is incorrectly followed by "wife".
The very fact that George has been corrected once from "lodger", not to "son-in-law" but to "visitor", makes me think that Pattie may be a niece, or more distant relative, rather than Adam's daughter.
Just more mud in already very muddy waters?
Hope not :)
UKgirl
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Yes I noticed the 'visitor' bit too and wondered.
If you look at the 1851 census for Adam and Mary Hickman- there is a daughter Martha but no candidate for 'Patti' but Francis' birth certificate says Patti Hickman.
There are some Patience Hickman and Martha Hickman marriages but none that jump out at you.
Yes - there is a scribbled out word - does look like 'Late' wondered if it could be 'Step' - the L and S on the page are similar but am inclined to go with 'late'.I thought it might have been the beginning of 'daughter' and crossed out.
I would now go for Walter's certificate and throw Blanche's in as well. Then we (or should I say you Andrea) have something concrete to go on. Am I right that we are not sure really who Martha Adams - presumably Mary Ann has died.
It's a tough one this!
Heywood
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Hysteria is setting in now. Andrea you have said that Francis is around in 1901 but I couldn't find him.
I have just noticed that son Thomas is also a french polisher like Francis - his age is too young though to be transformed into Francis but there is yet another similarity.
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Hi Heywood+UKgirl ! :)
I've just remembered why Francis can't be found in 1901-if you are using ancestry he is transcribed as Myron,the enumerator had slanted B's!! I found him via 1901census online,then went to look on ancestry and couldn't find him!!! RG13/3733 f 163 Atkinson Place.Thomas Adams is on Folio165
I did wonder if Francis was Thomas's sisters son,I searched for an Adams and Byron marriage pre 1870 and found nothing.
Since I got FC's birth cert I have thought maybe Patti/Martha were different people -aunts cousins,but whoever she is she was a Hickman and I have downloaded all the quarters for Hickmans from 1865-1873 so far and haven't found a match to a Byron-I'm still checking Bryans and other spellings.
Yesterday I found Thomas's family in 1861 and 1851.
In 1851 before Thomas was born ,Mary Jemima(Griffiths)+Thomas Allchurch Adams lived in St Andrew,Dudley Wood HO107/2033
In 1861 RG9/2062 Thomas was 10 on there and his sister,Blanche Marina/Marinda.
She married John Darby in 1877 at Dudley register office.
Theres a few Mary Adams who died in Dudley between 1871 and 1881.
There might have been another Adams sister,but she wouldn't have been old enough to be FC's mum.
I did try to use an ultra violet light to see what the scribble was next to son on 1881-it just looked like step!
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Oh,Thomas the French Polisher WAS real -he married Hannah Pendlebury in May 1904 and they lived at Falkland Ave.
All the Thomas's had ALLCHURCH as a middle name,possibly the middle Thomas's sister Blanche did too.
Here's a wierd bit of info-Thomas Allchurch Adams,who married Mary Jemima was 22 on the 1851 census,so I looked on the IGI and there he was,easy to find with a name like that-christened in August 1828 in Dudley-nowt wierd about that-except he also died in April 1829!!!!! ???
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His dad was called that too- if there was no age - it could have been grandad or sometimes if one baby died they called a subsequent one the same name. Don't forget to keep us posted on developments.
What ever happened to Francis by the way?
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Hi everyone,
UKgirl asked if I would post the offending bit of the 1881 census with Francis C BYROM [sic] on it, with an indecipherable relationship to the head of household. I've altered the levels a bit to see if that made it easier to read, but it doesn't really - also made it negative in case that helped. I copied some family relationships from further down the same page, and overlaid the word "Son" over Francis's entry - there is definitely a "Son" in the relationship column, but whether it's been crossed out, written over, blotted with ink or what, I don't know. I can't make out the rest, but I wonder whether to the left of "Son" is written something starting with "D" - it could be an "L" but the top of the initial stroke seems to swing the opposite way to the other "L"s on the page. The only thing that puts me off thinking it's "Daur" is that the age has been left in the "Male" column.
I don't mind saying that I'm stumped ??? ??? ??? but I hope these images might help others.
Cheers :)
Prue
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...and here are the clearly written family relationships from further down the page
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Thank you PrueM for having a go.
As you say, it's not yet crystal clear.
But with logic, we can rule out some things:
1). IF the enumerator had written daughter and then changed it to son, daughter would be written neatly within the column, and son would have been added to the left. BUT what we are looking at is the opposite scenario. So, it's the left bit which has been added.
Next point: the candidates for the capital letter would seem to be "L", "S" and "D".
The case for "L":
2). IF it's "Lte", with the "te" tiny, in a high position, and underlined, and IF the enumerator correctly filled it in, then the relationship should relate to Thomas H. Adams.
Possibilities: late wife's son/late sister's son/ even late mother's son ??? (she remarried)
(although with the exception of "wife", the word "late" is redundant in all these cases (eg. late sister's son>nephew/late mother's son>brother).
Which only really leaves us with "late wife's son" (as opposed to "his" son, & hence not named Adams)
Not possibilities: late brother's son/ late father's son.
3). IF it's some attempt at "Lodger's" son, then that is hardly likely since both lodgers are male and both lodgers are unmarried.
The case for "S":
4). IF it's "Step", I don't think it is possible to shorten that word to an abbreviation. On the other hand, it could be written with a large "S" and then tiny "tep" just to take up less space. There would definitely seem to be a "te", so this explanation is definitely still in the running. However, my query is this "If all the letters are actually present, (as in S tep), would the tiny letters still be underlined? Or is underlining only used when some letters are missing? (eg. tiny "th" written after "Eliz"- I think in this case the "th" should be underlined). Are there any grammar specialists out there??"
And then we should note that the meaning of "Stepson" has 2 possiblities:
a). The son of a former wife of Thomas Adams
b). The son of the present wife of Thomas Adams
The case for "D":
5). IF it's a "D" and tiny "te"................well it COULD NOT be an abbreviation of "Daughter's son. That's for sure.
any more suggestions?
...........................................................................................................................................................
And then if we consider why it was corrected in the first place, well we all know that men are not too fussy about such things. They've got "more important" things on their minds :P
So that would suggest that the objection to what was written came from Mrs Adams. I guess she did not wish to be viewed as the mother of a 12-year-old "big boy", while she was delighting in her pretty daughter, Blanche.
I bet you anything that baby Blanche was her first child!! ;D
The proud mother of her own child, but not of another mother's child.
I place my bet on either "Late wife's son" or "Stepson", with the same meaning in both cases, "the son of Adam's previous wife" and no connection with Martha.
Well, that's my theory.
The birth certificate of Blanche should shed much light on matters (or am I being overly optimisic?????????????)
Of course, this theory requires Thomas to have 3 wives 1871>1881, 1st, Mary Ann, then Pattie, the mother of Francis, who must have died, and then Martha ???
Lucky fellow ;D
Who is he with in 1891?? Or has he died of exhaustion by then? (Which by the way, I too may be doing shortly >:( )
Ukgirl
PS. What was that comment Heywood made, about hysteria setting in??
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Andrea, why don't you list up every married couple as they actually appear in each of the censuses, not as you wish they appeared, with the apropriate timeline for their marriage according to children's ages (starting with the grandparents' marriages, as this throws up other possible maiden names):
Then without the details of the story, challenge people to find those marriages as they are described in the Censuses.
Something may come up.
They can't all be missing ???
Ukgirl
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Hi to both of you,
In my attempts to emulate Miss Marple I have cut, pasted and listed but still am unable to offer much! Thomas has a Mary Anne wife in 1871 - newlyweds; 1881 he has Martha along with Francis C and baby Blanche; 1891 - Mary - a mistake?? then 1901 Martha - ages and place of birth point to one and the same -at least from 1881 onwards.
I keep trying to give up this and await the results of the birth certificates.
Heywood
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I have searched for death of Mary Ann Adams 1871- 1881 (is quarter) to no avail- might have missed her but did try hard.
Names:
1)you would have thought that she would be registered as Mary Ann - a different name to Mary
2) If Thomas who turns up in 1901 was born 1882 - then why is he not Thomas Allchurch Adams .
3)He would (you assume) be Martha's son- he comes after Blanche- so where is he in 1891?
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Thomas who appeared later,was defo Thomas Alchurch Adams,-only one L.I found his marriage yeasterday,and Blanches,and Alices-Thomas the 'Dad'- died between 1904 and 1913.His mum and dad were both dead by 1871.I've found one of martha's sister's with a son called Walter (Hill) ,born 1871,but I followed him through the census's.I'll have to decide whether I think Walter was an Adams and the Hickman listing in 1881was a mistake,or just mention my dilemma to Dudley and they can check them both!
I was trying to eliminate all the Hickman sisters ,I know Honor married Uriah Gadd 1864,Ellen married Thomas Wright 1857,and I'm sure Emma married Thomas Hill, 1853.
Thre were too many Mary's ,Ann's and Elizabeths.
I tried to eliminate the Martha Hickman who married George Roberts in 1869-because of the name George,but I couldn't find them anywhere!!!
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You are doing so well with such a tricky business. In the end you'll feel personally involved with all these people! I'm getting that way myself!
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I don't really care whether Walter is mine or not anymore!!! I just want to solve the puzzle and see how it all fits together! The words 'dog' and 'bone' spring to mind!!!! ;D ;D
I've been looking at 1881 again,under ultra violet light-it can't see through the black but it highlights the white you can't see so obviously with the naked eye
Anyway it looks like the enumerator started to write L like for lodger or D for daughter,then it definitely says 'son' but the 'S' is like in Salford at the top of the page,not like the exagerated S elsewhere.As for what he wrote before it-I still can't tell,it looks like the J from joiner but there is a letter like a 'loopy' F-possibly a P.
The wierd thing is-the whole family's entry is in the wrong columns-relationship to head is in the marriage bit and vice versa,which is probably why they have got crosses in the middle columns.
There are a few Mary A Adams deaths on west mids bmd but when I tried to get their ages off free bmd it wouldn't work! :(
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Hello again,
I am still sure that the secret key that unlocks it all may lie in that scribble to the left of "son".
PrueM did her best. She is very good at that stuff.
Maybe some other people would enjoy the challenge. (Have you seen the magic worked on the Photo Restoration board listed under the Common Room board? It's fascinating!!).
Why don't you put the images that PrueM put up on your post onto the Photo Restoration Board and invite others to have a go.
If some of the scribble on the left (the cross etc.) were removed, then the word may become visible.
It's worth a try.
(Everyone loves a challenge!! ;D)
Ukgirl
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That sounds like a good idea but I wouldn't know how to do it!!!
I had a better idea-I'll ask Derek Acorah if Sam can help to contact Walter!!!!!!
(You have to have seen Most Haunted on th telly to get that!!!)
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walter byron hit his wife with a iron fender and fled thehousen thinking he had killed her thats why no one can trace him
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Birmingham born in birmingham in 1874
married Mary Ann Clancy's born 1873
children Cathrine, Francis Charles, Walter, Ethel ( my gran ), Elizabeth, Martha and Anna
Mary Ann mother was Catherine Clancy nee ?? born in Dublin in 1839
there is a rumour that Walter was a batman for an army officer in a Irish regiment also he was a tailor
he also worked at Salford docks
Martha died this year and is buried at Phillips park cemetery east of Manchester city centre near the new Manchester city ground she lived just at the back of the cemetery where her mother is buried with other family members