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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northamptonshire => England => Northamptonshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: wamwig on Monday 13 February 06 23:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Looking for an ancestor of mine, John Smith (yes really) born 1850 Towcester, by 1891 he was a shoemaker in Hertford, married Catherine (Kate) Clarke in Northampton in 1883. Any Help appreciated.
Regards
Anthony
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Hi Anthony
There are no exact matches for your man in earlier censuses.
Have you identified him in 1881? If so, could you post the details please?
Do you have any idea of his parents' names, or have you found a marriage?
I suspect that his age is out - possibly he altered it down to match his wife's age more closely?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Arranroots
This is from the 1891 census in Hertford
RG12/1110 Folio 27. Page 7
29 Church St
All Saints
Hertford
SMITH
John, Head, Married, 41, Shoemaker, b Towester, Northamptonshire
Kate, Wife, 26, b Northampton
Frank, (No relationship given) 6, b Braintree, Essex
May, ditto, 3, b Hertford, Herts
Eleanor, ditto, 1, b Hertford, Herts
FreeBMD indicates a John Smith and Catherine (Kate) Clarke married in Northampton in 1883, so he could have been there in 1881 or earlier, or even in Braintree, I suppose. Have tried to confirm the 1881 location on Familysearch but the server appears to be down at the moment.
Any help?
Regards
Anthony
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Hi again Anthony
After some fruitless searching I tred going to 1901 - and find that John is Samuel!
They all seem to have developed the middle initial "M", which I assume from your earler post is Marriott?
Might make it easier to confirm the marriage.
Will have a look for Samuel in earlier censuses.
Arranroots ;)
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Hi Arranroots
Yes I think you are probably right in that the M would be for Marriot, I believe most, if not all, of the children have that as a middle name, although the relevance of it appears to have been lost over time. My father thought it could have been Kate's maiden name although if Clarke is correct that seems to be eroneous. Did you find them in Hertford in 1901 then?
Regards
Anthony
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I am assuming you don't already have this record? - sorry our posts crossed! :)
RG13/1305/6/4
SMITH Samuel J W Head Mar 52 - upholsterer for Murdoch & Co Goods - Towcester
Kate M W M 37 - Northampton
Frank M son U 16 - commercial clerk - Braintree
May M dau 13 - nursemaid - Hertford
Eleanor M dau 11 - do
Lilian M dau 9 - do
Kate M dau 8 - do
Harry A M son 6 - do
Address 3 Church ST, Hertford, Hertfordshire
;)
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Arranroots
Thanks for that, I didnt have it, but it means the age I had for Harry previously was in error and I think I have now found a birth that matches, Arthur Harry Smith in the March quarter in 1895, as well as some other Smiths that may have a Marriot as one of their middle names. Frustrating this isnt it!
Regards
Anthony
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If you search on Marriot* as a first name a little set of them pop up!
I think it would be a REALLY good move to obtain a certificate at this stage. Otherwise it is going to be a long haul!
I have just been through a whole lot of the 1881 census and Samuel/ John is not appearing.
I wonder if he was married previously, as he was quite old when he married Kate - at least judging by the ages of their children and her own age. I have taken that into consideration when searching.
I see you have been searching for other SMITHs - what is the connection between them, if any? That might help.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Arranroots
Thanks for all your help, I think it probably is time to get a certificate or two now, but it will have to wait till next pay day as I've already ordered a few this month and I need to limit myself.
I think the other smiths were probably a mistake as they do not appear to be connected at all, and were only living closeby. Oh well suppose we all go down the wrong road sometimes.
Guess I'll probably be back when I've found out some more from certificates. Many Thanks again.
Regards
Anthony
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If you find your self with some spare time, the BMD indexes are online at Ancestry (Beta version but free at the moment).
Let us know if you find anything that might help.
It would be a good idea to update your other post to reflect the fact that the 1901 is now found.
Talk to you soon
Arranroots ;)
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I can see a John Smith born Towcester 10 years out (born ca 1841) in 1881, married to an Emma and with children... By 1891, Emma is down as married but husband is not around... Not very convincing, I know :-\
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Hi Tati
Dont suppose it gives his occupation as Shoemaker does it?
Anthony
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Funny you should say that Tanja
Marriage
Mar 1877 Northampton
Samuel John W SMITH
Emma HALFORD or Jemima PARBERY
Vol 3b/ Page 99
I had wondered whether he did a bunk!!
(sorry to cast nasturtiums Anthony! ;D )
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He is a shoe rivetter in 1881 - but some of the children were born before the possible marriage above.
Hmmm
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Umm
This is getting interesting, the name certainly ties up with the 1901 census and the theory may also explain why he married under the name John. I'm intrigued now, never expected this.
Anthony
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He is a shoe rivetter in 1881 - but some of the children were born before the possible marriage above.
Hmmm
They were already married in 1871, if I remember well.
The 1881 reference is RG11/1550 48 24 if you want to have a look, Anthony.
Tanja :)
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Just a note of caution re professions, I am sure you are aware that Northamptonshire was the centre of a very large shoemaking industry & a good proportion of the population would have been engaged in it in some way.
Just the same, it does look intriguing - work harder!! You need the money for all these certs, LOL! ;D
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Arranroots/Tanja
Well obviously I need several more certificates now, lots to think about as well, my dad will certainly be surprised. The name certainly fits the theory and may explain the name change and probably the move to Braintree and then Hertford. Thanks for all your help, when I find out more I'll let you know.
Best Regards
Anthony
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Can't see any other John or Samuel Smith born Towcester in previous census returns. The one born 1841 is a boarder in Northampton St Sepulchre in 1861 (Bootmaker).
Problem being: I am only relying on his birthplace here, so indeed we are just playing around while waiting for the certs to arrive :P
Tanja :)
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Have you looked at Mary Taylor's Towcester website.
A must for anyone with ancestors in the area.
It is a long url, and I cannot paste it. But you will find it on rootsweb.
A google search on 'towcester rootsweb' will find it
Marilyn
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Marilyn
Thanks, Didn't know about that one. I've had a look but neither John Samuel or Samuel John seem to be there! I did note from FreeBMD that there was a John Smith born in Towcester in 1850 and a John Smith there died in 1851, a brother perhaps? or maybe I'm just thinking too far ahead!
Regards
Anthony
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Arranroots/Tanja
Looking at the 1881 census data there is a big gap between the two oldest children (15/13) and the other three (4/3/1) who are after the marriage identified in 1877. Pehaps he was married before this one as well or they may be her children from a previous relationship, think I've identified the birth record for the oldest, Charlotte, so I may look at that if the original theory does check out.
Regards
Anthony
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Have now ordered the two marriage certificates so I can see if there is any substance to the theory. Also I've found a death record for John Samuel W Smith in Hertford for 1904, which gives his age as 55, although I think I've seen a photograph of him in which I would have put him at least 70, so we shall see.
Anthony
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Maybe it was just that he had a hard life?? ;D
Let us know when the certs arrive - could be a bit of a wait though...
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Just a quick update
Have just recived my grans birth certificate, Silvia Marriot Smith born 27/03/04. This gives the father as Samuel John West Smith of 3 Church Street Hertford and the mother as Kate Smith, formerly Marriot, although a quick check of Freebmd only gives only two Kate Marriots and two Catherine Marriots none of which look to be relevant!
Hopefully in a couple of weeks the marriage certs will arrive.
Anthony
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That's excellent Anthony!
What occupation does it give for SJW?
Arranroots ;)
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Occupation - Shoemaker
Anthony
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Bizarre! He should be an upholsterer, cos the 1901 we found HAS to be right - same address!!
What do you think of this?
RG11/3204/46/4
SMITH William H M 74 - tailor & outfitter - Northamptonshire Marcy?
Sarah W M 69? - Lincolnshire Bourne
Samuel John W son U 40 - tailor asst - Spalding
Emma Jane dau U 25 - ditto
Address: 28 The Crescent, Spalding, Lincolnshire
A ;)
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Arranroots
He may have changed jobs of course although the way this is going I dont find anything bizarre any more. That other family looks interesting, which census is that from? There cant be that many Samuel John W Smith's around surely! Not being able to find a suitable Kate or Catherine Marriot just adds to the intrigue as well, of course if the original theory is correct that could possibly not have been her maiden name either. Oh well probably wont know much more until the other certs arrive.
Regards
Anthony
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RG11 = 1881 census
I should think tailoring skills would come in useful in upholstery, but as I think we mentioned before you usually have to serve an apprenticeship to become a shoemaker (or a tailor for that matter)
Will have a look at this chap in earlier censuses & later - bear with me
A ;)
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There is a death
Samuel J W SMITH
Peterborough
Vol 3b Page 147
Dec 1887 aged 45
Could be the same man.
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Arranroots
Looks possible, I guess until I get the two wedding certificates its all pretty much conjecture and even then it may not be conclusive, although the original theory still looks good.
Anthony
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Hi all
Not got the certificates yet (of course) howver I have just been talking to my mother who said that when one of my cousins was born, and was given his mothers maiden name as a middle name, my gran (one of the Marriot Smiths) told her you shouldnt do that as thats only for those children born out of wedlock, perhaps not realising that was the reason for her own middle name. I'll be in touch again when I have digested the certificates.
Regards
Anthony
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Hi Anthony
Using a family surname as a middle name is a very strong tradition in Scotland: almost all my family did it.
The only ones born out of wedlock that I have found so far didn't get their father's surname at all, just their mother's.
Interesting story none the less!
A ;)
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Hi all
One wedding certificate arrived today that of the Northampton Register Office wedding of Samuel John West Smith, a rivetter (widower aged 36), to Emma Halford, no profession, (widow aged 36), both living at 57 Exeter Street, Northampton. Fathers given as Samuel West Smith Deceased (I think), Draper, and Stephen ?(still trying to make it out), fitter at foundry. Witnesses given as Thomas Milliner and Mary Anne Addington (I think).
Well that at least explains why there are older children in the 1881 census, they are obviously from a previous marriage, question is which one? I shall also try to make out Emma's father's surname.
Just waiting for the the later one now.
Regards
Anthony
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Hi again Anthony
You could try posting a portion of the cert on the Common Room board - we love having a go at reading illegible things!
Stephen is not such a common name though - it might be possible to identify the family with just a rough idea of the surname.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Arranroots
Its on the Common Room
Anthony
Consensus of opinion is that its Stephen Tooms, probably not that common a name. However freebmd only gives One Emma Tooms, born Northampton 1859, which would only make her 18 in 1877 and not 36?
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I can find the family you mention in censuses: in 1851 Emma is 10!!
Her dad is a whitesmith, which would fit.
Can post details if that helps?
A ;)
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Here's a possible marriage that might interest you!
Emma Tooms
Edward HOLFORD
Mar 1859 Northampton
Vol 3b Page 82
A ;)
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Emma & Edward seem to have 2 sons in 1861 - Henry & Stephen.
RG9/939/36/9
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Arranroots
Interesting, I would agree that looks like her previous marriage but those children would be in their 20's in the 1881 census so it still doesnt account for the 15 and 13 year olds, maybe they had some more or maybe they are Sam Smith's as both Charlotte and Charles are listed as Smiths.
Anthony
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Arranroots
Thought struck me this morning, perhaps his father Samuel West Smith is on one of the censuses for Towcester, possibly born 1810-1820?, this may help to tie it up, or not. Just a thought.
Also looking at the bmd records on ancestry there is a Samuel John (Walnuff?) Smith born in Spalding Mar 1841 Vol xiv page 349, could this be the birth of the Peterborough death record?
Regards
Anthony
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Can you just remind me of the date of the marriage of SJWS & Emma, please?
I can't seem to see it anywhere!
A ;)
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Morning Arranroots
Marriage
Mar 1877 Northampton
Samuel John W SMITH
Emma HALFORD
Vol 3b/ Page 99
Dont have my records to hand at the moment for the later one (as John Samuel Smith) but I think it was either 1883 or 1884 in Northampton.
Regards
Anthony
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Thanks Anthony, I was just trying to establish at what point he is likely to have left home.
Have had a quick look for SWS without luck so far, but will now try again.
;)
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Arranroots
Remember the cert says he was a widower at this time so he will have had a previous marriage as well.
Also remember what started all this conjecture was Tanja found a John Smith born Towcester (born ca 1841) in 1881, married to an Emma and with children... By 1891, Emma is down as married but husband is not around... and then also probably found him as a boarder in Northampton St Sepulchre in 1861 (Bootmaker).
Anthony
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OK I have decided I need to write this out!
Meanwhile - take this!!
RG9/939/36/9
Edward HALFORD H M 25 - beer house - Northam...
Emma W M 20 - do Mkt Harbro
Stephen son 3 - Northampton
Henry son 1 - do
William RICHARDSON boarder M 54 - moulder - Stourport Worcs
Henry KING do M 60 - do - ??
179 Bridge St, Northampton All Saints
Can't locate them in 1871
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I remembered that Tanja found them in 1871, living as man & wife and with Charlotte A b 1866 and John C b 1869 both St Giles, Northampton.
Have you located these births yet on the indexes? They might be registered as HALFORD, since Emma was either married to Edward or his widow at this point.
Arranroots ;)
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Hi Arranroots and all
I shall have to look later, sadly have to do some 'proper' work this afternoon, hopefully the other marriage cert may have arrived today, if so I will post details and a synopsis of what is known already to save looking back over the thread.
Regards
Anthony
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if so I will post details and a synopsis of what is known already
That's great!! I see the blame is put on me ;) but I'm completely lost! ;D ;D
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I also think that would be a good idea - I seem to have Samuel married to two women at the same time!
I think we can discount the findings for the Spalding Samuel though.
I have just made several pages of notes, but they are not coherent enough to post!
A ;)
p.s. Tanja - the credit, not the blame!! ;)
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Hi all
Not got the other cert yet, but I have found a marriage for a Samuel Smith in Towcester, Mar qtr 1858, to a Lucy Davis, and wondered if this might be our mans first wedding? Can anyone find them in the 1861 census as that may help to identify the unknown children.
Many thanks
Anthony
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Hi Anthony
Here they are from the 1861 Census
Rg9/925/1 Cold Higham Pg 15 F.11 Sch 79
Samuel Smith Head Mar 35 Ag Lab Cold Higham
Lucey Wife Mar 32 Lace Maker Maidford
Mary Ann Daur 11 Lace Maker Cold Higham
John Son 9 Farmers Plough Boy Cold Higham
John Davis Son in Law 7 Grimscote
Joseph Smith Son 4 Cold Higham
Thomas Smith Son 9mo Cold Higham
Cheers Sandy
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Hi Anthony
From Alan Clarkes' marriage indexes.
Cold Higham 15-Jan 1858
Samuel SMITH otp, widower, age 34, labourer, father John, labourer to
Lucy DAVIS of Grimscote, widow, age 29, father James Moore, labourer
I will see if I can fiind the other marriages in a moment.
Cheers Sandy
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Hi again
From the 1851 Census Samuels' wife seems to be Sarah.
H.O.107/1736/1 Cold Higham Pg 16? F. (can not read)
Samuel Smith Head Mar 26 Ag Lab Cold Higham
Sarah Wife Mar 25 Pattishall
Mary Ann Daur 2 Cold Higham
John Son 4mo Cold Higham
Cheers Sandy
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Hi again Anthony
From the same marriages indexes. Lucys' 1st marriage.
Maidford BT's 25-Jan 1852
John DAVIS of Grimscote in the parish of Cold Higham, bachelor, of full age, labourer, father George, labourer to
Lucy MOORE otp, spinster, of full age, servant, father James, labourer
Cheers Sandy
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Thanks Sandy
That looks like a blind alley and is obviously not the Samuel (or John) Smith I am after, still it was worth a try. At least its one eliminated.
Regards
Anthony
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Never mind Anthony
They are out there somewhere.
Cheers Sandy
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Hi all
Been trying to find Samuel John West Smith's first marriage sometime between 1857 and 1877 but not really had any luck so I have emailed Alan Clark for a look up of his Northants marriage database, unless anyone has any other ideas?
Regards
Anthony
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Hi Rootschatters
Well in the immortal words of Donald Rumsfeld “There are some things we know and there are some things we don’t know……..” So before we lose track and this becomes the longest thread on here, this is how I see where we are.
I started this thread to find out more about my Gt Gt Grandfather, who had been identified on the 1891 census as John Smith (aged about 40 and b in Towcester) living with his wife Kate and family in Hertford. He was later identified on the 1901 census as Samuel John West Smith, and this name was given as the father on my Grans birth certificate.
It appears he may have been ‘married’ three times
Firstly to an unknown probably either in Towcester or Northampton, it is believed she died.
He then married Emma Halford (Tooms), both aged 36, in Northampton in 1877. The marriage cert says both were widowed. The 1881 census shows them living in Northampton with five children, 3 of whom are 4,3 and 1, the other two Charlotte and Charles Smith being 15 and 13 and probably from one of their previous relationships. Sometime between 1881 and 1883 he appears to have left Emma and
Possibly married Kate Marriott after before moving to Braintree and then Hertford, where they had several more children, including my gran in 1904.
He died in Hertford in 1905, aged 55 it says although the one photo I have seen appears to indicate a much older man, probably in his 70’s, so the original age on the Emma Halford cert seems more reasonable and he probably lowered his age to more closely match that of Kate.
So still to be found is any reference to Samuel John West Smith on pre 1861 census (in 1861 he was an apprentice shoemaker in Northampton), his first marriage and a marriage to Kate Marriott. In regard to his first marriage I have made a request to Alan Clark and I have also looked for the children and there were no Charlotte Halford, Holford or Tooms born in Northampton 1865-1867, but there was a Charlotte Smith (Mar qtr 1867 vol 3b 80) so I will probably order this as well, or perhaps someone could find Charlotte and Charles Smith aged about 5 and 3 on the 1871 census?. The marriage to Emma gives his father as Samuel West Smith if that helps anybody.
Regards
Anthony
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Hi all
Have now received the other marriage cert to Kate Clarke and the bad news is it is not my John or Samuel Smith. I did find a birth record for a Kate Marriott in Northampton in 1865, which would tie up with the age in the 1891 census, although having spent the last hour or so looking on Ancestry.co.uk I cannot find any record of a marriage. There are several Kate Marriots married in the time period although none seem to be in Northampton (or even Braintree) the nearest being Market Bosworth in the Dec qtr 1882. The possiblity may be that Samuel Smith and Kate Marriot never got married. As an aside on my grans birth cert she gives her mothers name as Kate Marriott and then it is crossed out. I have modified the post above to reflect this.
Anybody got any ideas?
Regards
Anthony
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Hi Anthony,
Err... I mentioned this 1871 census somewhere but I can't see it posted:
1871
Northampton St Giles
RG10/148182 43
25 Brunswick Street
John Smith, head, 30, Shoe riveter, b. Towcester
Emma, wife, 30, b. Northampton All Saints
Charlotte A, dau, 5, scholar, b. St Giles
John C, son, 2, b. St Giles
Wonder if John C is John Charles ???
Tanja :)
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Tanja
Thanks for that, I definately have a marriage cert for Samuel John West Smith and Emma Halford dated 1877, perhaps his first wife was also called Emma, which would be possible? Crikey this isnt easy is it. Does it give an age for this Emma here?
Regards
Anthony
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Sorry - have added the age in the meantime. Just the same age age the 1881 Emma too.
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Tanja
Thats strange because it definately says they are both widowed when married in 1877 and Arranroots found her marriage to Edward Halford in 1859 and found Edward and Emma in the 1861 census so this could be the Emma he married in 1877 but just not married at this time, though it doesnt answer his first marriage and wonder why ther is a gap in children between these two and the three post 1877?
Anthony
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I'm afraid only one of the children's birth certs would help you out... if you can spot them :-\
The 1877 marriages seems to make sense with the children's age gap so indeed the 1871 Emma may have been a previous wife. I agree he could have made things easier for you ;D
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There are certainly still more questions than answers here!
I was wondering what happened to Edward HALFORD, so I had a quick look, but can't see either a death or a census entry post 1861. Neither is there any trace of Henry & Stephen, the children of that marriage.
Anyone else seen them?
;)
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Anyone else seen them?
Not me >:(
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Hi all
You know I think we are looking at two seperate wives called Emma that were also the same age. The wife in the 1861 census was born in Northampton All Saints, while the Emma in the 1881 census (ie the one previously married to Edward Halford) was born in Market Harboro. So somewhere there must be a record of Samuel or John Smiths wedding to an Emma probably in Northampton around 1865.
Regards
Anthony
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Hi Arranroots Tanja and anyone else following this
Thought I'd try Tanja's advice and try and find a birth record for one of the children on Ancestry, found a couple that could be John or Charles Smith, however there is a Charlotte A Smith, born Northampton Dec 1866 qtr, Vol 3b p69, which looks a very good bet so I shall order this one and see what it says. In the meantime if anyone has any more ideas feel free to post
Regards
Anthony
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Good plan, Anthony!
I have nearly worn out the SMITH button on my computer, LOL !! ;D
;)
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Thanks Arranroots
I think its a good plan as well, and probably the only plan at the moment! but I am determined to get to the bottom of this as what seemed like a simple request in the beginning to find out about John Smith has actually turned out to be rather interesting. Its a good job they are all not this confusing and involved. :D
Anthony
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Tanja
When you found him as a boarder in the 1861 census in Northampton Sepulchre was there anyone else in the house that may give a clue as Charlotte was born in 1866 and, I know its a long shot, but he may just have met Emma there?
Regards
Anthony
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Anthony - you're such an optimist ;D
I think we can discount the Emma he is living with:
1861
RG9/936 26 9
Northampton St Sepulchre
Adelaide Street
Henry Dingle, head, 26, Bootmaker, b. London
Caroline, wife, 19, b. Northampton
Elizabeth, dau, 21 ms, b. do.
Emma, dau, 7 mo, b. do.
John Smith, boarder, unm, 21, Boot maker, b. Towcester
Tanja :)
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Thanks Tanja
Worth a try though wasnt it, of course she may have been next door though........................but I woulnt dream of asking that.
Anthony
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No Emma immediately next door - several Emma's born Northampton ca. 1840 to be found in Northamptonshire.
Not much help, is it?
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Well it was worth I try, sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you dont. I will just have to order Charlotte's birth certificate and see what it says. Thanks anyway Tanja.
Anthony
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Hi all
Over the weekend I was looking at the Towcester and district historical society's website and they have details from the 1855 Towcester Rate Book. This lists a Sam Smith living at Islington Road, which could be my mans father. Could someone please look and see if he turns up in the 1841 or 1851 census?
Many thanks
Anthony
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Yes, he is there - not sure whether he helps or not though - will post shortly
A ;)
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Here they are
1851 census HO107/1736/ folio missing / page 3
Samuel SMITH H M 27 - ag lab - Woodmancote
Ann W M 25 - Cuttle Mill
George son 4 - Towcester
Sarah Ann dau 3 - do
Elijah son 1 - do
Emma dau 3 wks - do
Sarah COLLINS visitor Wid 60 - Byfield
All b Northamptonshire, towns as specified
Address: Islington, Towcester, Northants
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi Anthony,
OK - arriving too late for Saml ;D
... and this seems to be the nearest John :-\
HO107/1736
Kings Lane Towcester Union Workhouse
John Smith, 10, Pauper, b. Towcester
Other Smiths I can see in the workhouse (not enumerated together however)
Susan Smith, 44, unm, Pauper nurse, b. Kent Gravesend
Ellen Smith, 3, Pauper, b. Towcester
Sarah Smith, 7, Pauper, b. Towcester
Tanja :)
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Thanks Arranroots/Tanja
One of these days I will get a breakthrough on this, looks like I can elimate that Sam Smith, again worth a try though, so I guess my mans father probably died before 1851. The John Smith in the workhouse could be interesting as he is the right age and that could explain why he went off to Northampton. Thanks again, I'm sure I'll solve all this one day, in the meantime we probably arent that far off the longest thread on this board!
Regards
Anthony
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we probably arent that far off the longest thread on this board!
Only 1169 replies to go for the rootschat record 8) 8)
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The John Smith in the workhouse could be interesting as he is the right age and that could explain why he went off to Northampton.
It might be worth posting, to see whether anyone on the board has access to the Board of Guardians Minutes Book for Towcester.
If this is your John in 1851 (or even if it isn't) it is likely that the Guardians would have apprenticed him out in the few years after that census. The Minute Book should record such a fact, there were often applications for a set of clothes to send the child to work in or some such mundane record. Worth a separate post, maybe? The record would be in the county record office if it survives I suspect.
kind regards, Arranroots
(1168 to go... ;D ;D )
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Hi Anthony!
Do you have these pictures already? for background ..... !!
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/Towcester/Towcester.shtml
Annie :)
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Thanks Annie
Didnt know about that one, some good background info.........
Anthony
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That sounds promising - look what it says about the records:
Northamptonshire Record Office, Wootton Hall Park, Northampton, Northants, NN4 8BQ. A wide variety of records survive including: Guardians' minutes (1835, 1839-1930); Admissions and discharges (1901-5, 1922-9); Deaths (1837-1930); Creed register (1914-30); Register of lunatics (1892-22); Punishment book (1899-1933); etc.
I would send them an e-mail if it were me!!
A ;)
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Go on, you know you want to...
email: archivist [at] northamptonshire.gov.uk
;D
Sarah Bridges
County Archivist
Records Office
Wootton Hall Park
Northampton
NN4 8BQ
Tel: 01604 762129
Fax: 01604 767562
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Done, but dont hold your breath!!
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Did you tell them you want to know about Samuels AND Johns? LOL
;D
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Yes I did
Hi
I believe one of my ancesters may have been in Towcester workhouse, he would be John Smith who was born in 1840 or 1841 and was listed in the 1851 census as in the workhouse. My gt grandfather was born in Towcester in 1840 or 1841 as either John Samuel West Smith or Samuel John West Smith and was then an apprentice bootmaker in Northampton in 1861. I was just wondering if there was any record of the John Smith in the surviving workhouse records that could possibly confirm, or not, whether it is my John Smith.
Many Thanks
Anthony
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Fingers crossed now then, Anthony!
8) 8)
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Hi all
Just received this from Northampton County Archives
Thank you for your e mail of 13 March 2006.
Unfortunately few early records survive for Towcester Union Workhouse which would give information about inmates. The admission and discharge registers only survive from 1901. There is a register of deaths 1837 - 1930 (Ref: PL 11/225) but this would only be relevant if John Smith died in the workhouse.
There is also a Board of Guardians minute book 1847 - 1853 (Ref: PL 11/4). The Boards of Guardians minute books relate to the administration of the workhouse and some include occasional reference to inmates by name. The Research Service here could look at the Guardians minute book 1847 - 1853 for any entries relating to John Smith for a charge of £15 for an hour research. However it is not very likely that information on your ancestor will be included in this register. If you would like the Research Service to look at the Guardians minute book on your behalf please download the application form on our website at www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/Community and Learning/Record Office/Services, fill it in and return it here together with your payment.
I hope that this information is helpful.
Yours sincerely
Enquiries Archivist
So unfortunately that doesnt look very promising either, unless someone happens to be in the Northants County Archives.
Regards
Anthony
-
Blimey! I do it for free in Gloucester!
Still, that is how they finance saving the documents in the first place, I suppose.
Now what??
A ;)
-
Had we already searched for a birth?
Samuel John West
September 1841
Towcester
15 379
(or John Smith
March 1840
Towcester
15 381)
(from an incomplete free index - there may be others)
-
Tanja
I thought we had and not found one, Samuel John West seems like a 99% sure, or as sure as anything is in this story, at least that is what he is on my grans birth certificate. I shall add that to my order to the GRO. Well done I was beginning to think there wasnt a birth record.
Where did you find that as I'm sure I looked on Ancestry and didnt find anything, although I could be wrong of course.
Wonder which one is the one in the workhouse in 1851, possibly mine as the other would be 11 at the time of the census?
Anthony
-
I suggest you try again ;)
-
Ah thats because with his age on later census, and when the census was undertaken, I obviously didnt go far enough and completely forgot about the possibility of rounding up ages. Still got lots to learn!
Anthony
-
Tanja
Just read your post again, was that a Samuel John West or a Samuel John West Smith?
Anthony
-
Seeing your post ... he was plain WEST.
I guess we'd have to check complete death indexes too.
I can't see any Samuel John West in 1851.
There are plenty of John Smiths but the only one born Towcester is the one in the workhouse.
Still trying to figure out where the Smith comes from if little Sam John is your boy.
Tanja :)
-
Have you had a look at genuki's Towcester page?
http://www.kellner.eclipse.co.uk/genuki/NTH/Towcester/
There's a very tempting lookup offer for parish registers...
Tanja :)
-
Tanja
Thanks for that, no hadn't seen that one, will look tonight when I'm at home and have more time.
He's not making it easy for us is he.
Dont suppose you can find Samuel John West in the 1851 census?
Anthony
-
Well ... NO >:(
-
Sorry, I thought I'd ask though, just wondered if we had been looking for the wrong person in 1851 and John Smith is the one in the workhouse and Samuel John West (later Smith) was elsewhere at the time?
Anthony
-
I'd like to find an answer but I can't :-\
-
I had a quick look to see whether there were any relevant marriages.
Either Samuel's mother was nee WEST or she remarried SMITH after Samuel was born.
Maybe.
;D
-
Tanja and Arranroots
Thanks, I was thinking that but on his wedding cert to Emma Halford it gives his father as Samuel West Smith, which seems to suggest not!, unless of course he was lying?
Regards
Anthony
-
There is a chance that the 10 year old John Smith was in the workhouse in 1851 because he was born to a single Mum. Either she couldn't look after him because she had to work, or new hubby wouldn't have him.
In the 1841 census in Towcester (Alan Clarke's transcription) is
Park St, Towcester
in the household of William and Ann HART
Frances SMITH age 24 servant
N.K. (not yet named?) SMITH 2 weeks
all born in the county.
Perhaps someone could look at the original census to see if the infant is male or female.
If this is John, then possibly his father is a
Samuel WEST. or similar
Marilyn
-
Come on, Anthony, put us out of our misery and ask for a christening look-up on the genuki site ;)
-
Tanja
Now who is being optomistic!!
Did it about 10 minutes ago, I'm sure it will make everything crystal clear, not!! :-\
Anthony
-
Anything wrong with being optimistic ???
Tanja ;D ;D
-
Nothing at all
Except in the context of this topic its perhaps just a bit too much to ask! Still I suppose the truth must be out there, somewhere! ;)
Anthony
-
Hi all
Marilyn, you were right but it would appear finding the sex from the census would not have helped as Mary has answered a couple of points
Hi Anthony,
Just spent the last hour tracking your research through Rootschat! You have
certainly come a long way.
I think this is what you are looking for:
Towcester PR
1841
Sep 15th Samuel John illegitimate s Frances Smith Towcester
The 1841 Census reads:
Plankhouse Joseph Hart 25 Ag Lab Born in County
Ann Hart 25 Lace Maker Born
in County
Emma Hart 4 Born
in County
Mary Ann Hart 1 Born
in County
Frances Smith 24 Servant Born in County
N. K (girl) Smith 2 weeks Born in
County
I hadn't linked this supposedly female child up with the male baptism in the
PR.
Frances is on my site, baptised 10 Dec 1815. Although I'm afraid it doesn't
get you very far.
It is very common for illegitimate children to
a. Make up a father's name for their marriage certificate
b. Change their surname
and cases of bigamy are not unknown. I have two or three on the site - look
at Charles Peploe, John Gibbs born about March 1818 (not to mention his
first wife Elizabeth Wheeldon), and Betsy Salmon born about 1855
You should know that Plankhouse was slightly out of the town, and usually
inhabited by some of the poorest people in Towcester. Down by the
Silverstone Brook, it was in a part of town that would have flooded
regularly.
Hope this helps,
Mary
So, does that mean we are probably now looking for a Samuel John West for his first marriage, which might just be why it couldnt be found before!
Regards
Anthony
-
Speedy reply from Mary - great!! :D :D :D
Now I have no idea if little Samuel John is the one registered as Samuel John West. I suppose he shouldn't be ???
... and September would be a little late for registration too.
-
Tanja
If I was a betting man I would say yes it is as it is the right time, baptised Sept 15th - registered Sept qtr, and the name is just too much of a coincidence! oh now I'm being optomistic. I'm just going to have to get that birth certificate!! :D
Regards
Anthony
-
But he was 2 weeks on 30 March :-\
Then again, I have looked through the complete indexes and couldn't find him. She may not have regisered him at all. :-\
I just know you are going to ask me ;)
I was hoping to find her married to a Mr West... well no. I can't find her in 1851.
-
But the 1841 census was taken in June.
Marilyn
-
I know, but it is surely too much of a coincidence. I'll get that one anyway, but with the GRO's usual speed it could be a while :(
So the Sept qtr is July, Aug and Sept, which puts it in the right timeframe. I think we might be getting somewhere :o
Anthony
-
Is this her ???
1851
Frances Smith 37 Wife Towcester Northamptonshire
HO107/1491 Folio 226 Page 58
Annie :)
-
But the 1841 census was taken in June.
Right - sorry for confusing even more :-[
-
Annie
Could well be if there are no others, age is slightly out, was there no one else at the address, presumably the 'husband' was absent?
Anthony
-
This is ooh ee ooh!!!
In the same house was a man named Thomas West aged 25 with wife!!
1851
48 Princess St Marylebone
Samuel Smith 31 Towcester Northamptonshire Head Paper Hanger
Frances Smith 37 Towcester Northamptonshire Wife
Frederick Smith 5 Marylebone Middlesex Son
HO107/1491 Folio 226 Page 58
Annie :) :) :) :)
-
Hi Anthony and All ;D
I looked at your posts for an hour today also and gave up. ;D
Mary is correct in the 1841 Census information so here is a bit more
to add to it from the original image.
1841 Census Towcester H.O.107/811/06 Pg 1 Folio 5 Plankhouse
Joseph Hart 25 Ag Lab Y
Ann 25 Lace Maker Y
Emma 4 Y
Pg 2 Folio 5
Mary Ann 1 Y
Frances Smith 24 Servant Y
n.k. 2 weeks (in female column) Y
Cheers Sandy
-
Annie
Thats a bit of a coincidence as well isnt it, I wonder if that is my mans father. Can anybody see if they turn up in later census. On my mans 1877 marriage cert he gives his father as Samuel West Smith (deceased, but presumably he would not have known this for sure). pity I'm not famous as this would probably have made great tv, ha ha. ;D ;D ;D
Sandy
Not surprised you gave up, I nearly have several times, but at last I think we are getting towards the end! maybe :-\
Anthony
-
1851
48 Princess Street Marylebone
Eliza West 28 Paddington Middlesex Wife
Thomas West 25 Kilburn Middlesex Head carpenter /joiner
HO107/1491 Folio 226 Page 58
1861
Clerkenwell
Thomas West 35 Head Holborn Middlesex
RG9/194 Folio: 29 Page 52
Annie :)
-
Hi all
Well we are in danger of going off on rather a tangent here, but then again it is all related I suppose and it is my thread after all, just wondered if either Samuel or Frances made it onto the 1861 or later census?
The West connection is interesting, pity there is no way of finding out if they were related to the Smiths at all, and wonder why Samuel and Frances moved to London, presumably leaving young Samuel in the workhouse. Perhaps what happened in later years is a little more understandable now.
Anthony
-
Yes they're in Warwickshire!
1861
Samuel Smith 30 Head Towcester Northamptonshire
RG9/2226 Folio 70 Page 21
Annie :) :)
-
Anybody confused yet? ??? ??? :-\
-
Nearly ;D Anthony from the image Annie states 1861 St Nicholas Warwick
Sch 124 Packmoores
Samuel is a Paper Hanger aged 38 and Franc(i)s is 40 both from Towcester.
Children all born in London Frederick 15, Sarah 11, Louisa 7, Samuel 5, George 3.
So that ties up with the 1851 Census of them in Marylebone.
Cheers Sandy
-
Sandy
Thanks for that, wonder if those five children ever knew anything about Samuel, guess we will never know. I will follow that one up later on the Warwick board probably.
Mary came back later with further information having found Frances baptism on 10 Dec 1815 with parents Samuel (again), a glazier, and Elizabeth Smith, living on the High Street.
Still short of Samuel's first wedding to Emma ? though, Alan Clark has looked and cant find anything in his records either, only thing we know is that Emma was born in Northampton so I would presume the wedding took place there?
Regards
Anthony
-
Also short of a Frances Smith - Samuel Smith marriage :P
-
Boy! That will teach me to have an early night!!
If (big IF) SJWS was not Samuel SMITHs son, he might well have objected to raising him & the child could well have been deposited in the workhouse. This was not uncommon it seems.
I still think the Guardians Minute Books would be worth looking at - they are fascinating reading - is there no-one out there who could nip over to the Record Office?? Tempted to go myself it it wasn't so far! It is quite possible that the Guardians would have funded the lying-in and associated charges for Samuel's mother when he was born, with the possibility that they named the father!
My sheet of paper is proving quite inadequate for all the info you now have, Anthony, I can only imagine how your head must be spinning!
A ;)
-
Hi All
Anthony re: Alan's indexes they go upto 1860 so marriage would not be on them
surely for Samuel and Emma?.
Sandy
-
Looking at Arranroots last post there may have been a bastardy bond with a
reputed father noted? for Samuel of 1840.
Sandy
-
Hi all
Been away for the morning, have to do some work sometimes.
Tanja
And Samuels wedding to Kate after 1881, if he ever did of course.
Arranroots/Sandy
I think it was some good luck yesterday which helped to unlock this one, we were due some really :D . Good idea about the workhouse records, I'm at least 50 miles away so if anybody else does find themselves there, please.......... and luckily I have lots of paper on which to make notes :-\
To help clear some of this up I have on order from the GRO birth certs for Samuel John West 1841, Charlotte A Smith 1866 and Frank Marriott Smith 1884, the last one may help to understand more about John and Kate's time in Braintree.
Regards
Anthony
-
The marriage index does not include register office marriages or those in chapels (Methodist, Baptist etc)
There are a growing number of 1860 + marriages, but coverage is spotty. A complete uptodate list is on Alan's website.
Marilyn
-
Glad to hear that Marilyn.
Cheers Sandy
-
Hi Anthony
I looked through some of the Northampton Town Churches for your marriage of Samuel Smith to Emma.
The dates I covered were St Edmunds 1865-67. Not there.
St Giles 1865-1866. Not there.
St Sepulchres 1865-1866. Not there.
Sorry :(
Sandy
-
Sandy
Thanks for looking, Alan has checked his records again and cant find anything either. I'm sure he must be out there somewhere. Hopefully Charlotte's birth certificate will at least give Emma's maiden name, which should be a help.
Found his mother on the 1881 census though, they are back in London.
RG11
0060/133 p21
21 Swakeley Ter London, Middlesex, England
Samuel SMITH Head M Male 60 Towcester, Northampton, England House Decorator
Frances SMITH Wife M Female 66 Towcester, Northampton, England
Edmund W. FIELD Boarder Male 21 Ontario, Canada Retired Green Grocer
Richard IRELAND Visitor M Male 22 Gloucester, England Carpenter
Ellen IRELAND Visitor M Female 30
Ellen IRELAND Visitors Child Female > 1 Shepherds Bush, Middlesex, England
Regards
Anthony
-
I am sure he is Anthony ;D yet seeing my gt gt grandparents had children in 1851 stating that they
were married and yet did not marry until his real wife had died in 1869 I can see
your problem. ;D Did they or didn't they. ;D
Really gets you going to find the missing links doesn't it.
Cheers Sandy
-
Sandy
Sometimes it just gnaws away at you though doesn't it!
I suppose Samuel and Emma's wedding might not have been 1865/6, all we really know is that it was between 1861 and 1871 and were only guessing the date based on Charlottes birthday of late 1866. It could just as easily have been earlier, or perhaps less likely, later! I'm sure he did marry this one though, as he is listed as a widower on the next one, although I am now less sure that he actually married Kate.
Regards
Anthony
-
Morning all
Having found Samuel and Frances Smith (Samuel John West Smith's mother and possible father) in 1851, 1861 and 1881 could anyone complete the picture for 1871 please, it seems they have been moving about quite a bit.
Thanks
Anthony
-
Hi Anthony,
1871
RG10/61 104 20
Hammersmith, London
10 Hainesville Terrace
Samuel Smith, head, 50, Paper hanger, b. Northampton Towcester
Francis, wife, 56, b. do.
Frederick, son, 25, Decorator, b. Mddx Marylebone
Samuel, son, 15, b. do.
George, son, 13, b. do.
I don't want to spoil the fun but is there any serious reason to believe that these people are the right ones? As we know (if the Frances found in 1841 is his mother), she was nee Smith. Now we are supposing that she married a Smith too. Wouldn't we need to find a marriage, at least, to prove this? Otherwise any Frances born ca. 1815 Towcester would fit the bill, what do you think?
I agree finding a Mr West next door was exciting, but this chap was born in London and living next door to them in London while she was already with husband Samuel. Are we supposing he would have had a child with her in Towcester when he was 15? :-\
Or what do we think the West bit comes from?
Or have I completely lost the plot by now ??? :P
-
Tanja
Thanks for that and good point. I think I should add here that outside of this I have found that there were two Frances Smith born in Towcester in 1815 and one of them was Samuels mother, however one subsequently died in 1823 and the evidence suggests that the surviving Frances is indeed Samuel's mother. I also received evidence late last night that suggests that the Samuel and Frances that are 'married' here were step brother and step sister as Frances mother died and her father later married someone who already had children and who were then subsequently baptised as Smith's, including one Samuel, a paper hanger! As there appears to be no actual Samuel Smiths born in Towcester at that time this scenario seems highly likely. The West bit I am still working on, but may take some time.
So no I dont think you have lost the plot, but I think we are getting close to filling in many of the pieces.
Regards
Anthony
-
Gee :o What a story!!
That's just f-a-n-t-a-s-t-i-q-u-e !!
Do we also know Samuel senior's name before he was a Smith? (West by any chance? :P )
-
Hi Tanya/ Anthony
I know what you mean. ;D
I think it is because we are working upwards not down and really at the
moment not able to clarify with certificates "who is who".
It is certainly getting so the plot thickens. ;D
Sandy
-
Yeah Tanya quite a story and its not over yet is it, appears his name was Moulton and the ages are a little out although of course like SJWS its possible he lied later! Also still looking for a possible connection with West. As you said I think we can discount the West in London, that would just be too much of a coincidence and very unlikely even for this story! I guess this will probably go fairly quiet for a while now, at least until I get the ordered birth certificates.
However in the meantime if anyone does find themselves at Northampton archives, please could they see if there is any record of him in the Workhouse Guardians minutes.
Many thanks all
Anthony
-
Hi All
Well Arranroots looks like you were right, looking at the record for Frances Smith on the Families of Towcester website I found the following.
Northants Record Office
Title: Towcester Board of Guardians Minute Books
Abbrev: Towcester Board of Guardians Minute Books
Call Number: PL11
Text: 19 Oct 1841 Order of Affiliation in the bastardy case of Frances Smith of Towcester
Well now we know there is a record of it, with a reference as well, and with the best luck in the world I will be unlikely to get there for some time so if anybody does find themselves at the Northampton Record Office could they please do a lookup for me.
Regards
Anthony
-
Hi all
Two of the certificates I ordered arrived today and it clears up a couple of things but then..........
Anyway easy one first
Frank Marriot Smith, first child of John Smith and Kate Smith (formerly Marriott) was born 19th December 1886 at 122 Manor Street, Braintree. He was registered by his father, who was described as a rivetter.
and then
Charlotte Ann Smith, first child of John Smith, was born 17th November 1866 at 19 Brunswick Street, Northampton. Her mother is given as Emma Smith (formerly Tooms!). She was registered by her mother and her fathers occupation was shoemaker.
However of course I have their marriage certificate dated 1877, which clearly indicates that they were not married at this time, but it does offer some proof that this was the Emma he was living with in 1871, there is also no mention of Halford. So if John was married before (and he is listed as a widower on the 1877 cert, or was this just to be the same as his wife) it would have to have been sometime between 1860 ish and 1865 and Emma's previous husband, Edward Halford, must have died between 1861 and 1865. Also in 1861 Edward and Emma had two children of 3 and 1 so what happened to them, maybe they all died together?
So two certificates and still not really much nearer to solving the puzzle or finding out who John Smiths first wife, if any, was!!
Any suggestions anyone?
Regards
Anthony
-
HI Anthony
I went to the Record Office to day and looked at the Minute books for Frances Smith
and the Quarter Sessions but didn't glean anything really.
Here is what the Guardian Book said.
Pg 275
The applications and Notices for orders of Affliliation in Frances Smiths (Towcester)
Bastardy Case were signed at this board - .
No name of father or note of a bond.
No mention in the Quarter Sessions either.
Sorry
Sandy
-
Sandy
Thanks for looking anyway, the one birth certificate I am waiting for is John Smith's, perhaps this might just tell us a little more, although I'm not that hopeful. I'm 99% sure that was him at the workhouse and I have what appears to be all of the census returns for him, but I wish I could find his first marriage and one to Kate Marriott.
Also his mothers parents turn up in a paper in the records of the Grafton estate regarding what appears to be a fine on a property, although from everything we have found so far it would suggest they had little money!
I'm sure the answers are out there somewhere. Maybe after getting his birth certificate its time to put it away for a while and come back in six months or so and look at the evidence again!
Regards
Anthony
-
Hi Anthony,
I have had a look through the complete death indexes 1861-1866 for the Halford's. Couldn't spot a good match for Edward (there are several, but none in Northampton).
Found these 2 possibles:
Henry Halford - June 1862 - Northampton - 3b 46
Stephen Halford - December 1863 - Northampton 3b 48
Tanja :)
-
Hi Tanja
Well that answers what happened to the two children, they were Henry and Stephen. Wonder where Edward is then, nothing is easy on this is it! :)
My guess is that he probably died somewhere other than Northampton and is one of those you found, but which one!!
Anthony
-
Ok All
I've had a think about this and lets assume his 1877 wedding cert is correct and he was a widow. That would mean his first marriage would have to have been between the 1861 census, as he is listed as unm rather than wid, and the time Emma Halford got pregnant with Charlotte, ie between mid 1861 and the end of 1865. Furthermore his wife must have died in the same period.
If we also assume the wedding was in Northampton, as he was working there, freebmd lists only two possible John Smith matches. One, in jun qtr 1861, to either Eliza Frost or Harriet Howes (an Eliza Smith d sep 1863 qtr). The other, in jun 1863 qtr, to either Sarah Flavell or Louisa Hewitt (two Louisa Smiths d in the period, dec qtr 1864 & jun qtr 1865).
So my betting would be that my mans first marriage is one of these two John Smiths. Is that a reasonable deduction?
Regards
Anthony
-
Unfortunately, FreeBMD is far from complete for this time frame, so you could be right - or not :P
The complete indexes are here to search:
marriages: http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=8965
deaths: http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=8966
Tanja :)
-
Thanks Tanja
I shall continue to search over the weekend ;)
Anthony
-
Have fun :P ;D
-
Well. luckily its only less than four years, so it shouldnt be that difficult should it, I mean just how many John Smiths would have got married at that time anyway! ;D
Oh no :o
-
OK here is the other birth certificate
Born 7th June 1841 at 5 am at Towcester a boy Samuel John, father John West (a draper), mother Frances Smith who signed it with an x.
So who is John West?
Is there a John West in the 1841 or 1851 census who could fit the bill?
Anthony
-
Hi
Think I found him
1851, 79 High St, John West, aged 39, a draper
1841, 119 High Street, aged 29, a draper
Yes ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Anthony
-
Champagne !! 8) 8) 8)
-
Well actually I'd already opened a bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon, better not drink it all though I still have to find his first and third marriages, but at last a bit of success. :D
Anthony
-
Was Mr. West married in 1841? :P
-
Tanja
Yes he was, he was married to a Maria Ann born 1814 in Birmingham, in the 1851 census she was back living in Birmingham. They appear to have had just one child William John West, born 1843 and a scholar living with his father in Towcester in 1851. It looks like John West died in 1854, the son went on to be a brewers manager in Northampton.
Regards
Anthony
-
And the boy was however registered as West, right?
What a tricky case!!
-
Tanja
He was registered as Samuel John, with fathers name as John West, a draper, so yes I suppose he was. perhaps Maria found out and that was why she was back in Birmingham in 1851? Well I guess we will never know that, unless there are any descendants of Maria Ann out there................ Now that would be good luck, and pushing it just a bit, at the moment I'm just pleased to get this far as I've also now traced the wests back a couple more generations in Gayton.
Anthony :)
-
Tanja (and anyone else following this)
Slight correction to information from Friday. John West did marry Maria Ann, but it appears not until after 1841, so he was single then and she was still in Towcester in 1851. However everything else appears to be correct. Still got to look for his first marriage though, spent the weekend doing other things, like trying to write all this up into something coherent! :-\
Anthony
-
Hi Anthony.
I've just stumbled across this thread because a few of the names are in common with what I'm looking for.
From the quick census research we've done so far, I've found Samuel J W Smith married to Kate M Dunham (or Marriott?) with Frank Marriott Smith born in Braintree 1885. Also listed as children are May, Eleanor, Lilian, Kate, Harry and Leonard. Both Frank and Samuel (if this is all correct) would be direct ancestors on my dad's line of the family, Frank being my gt gt grandfather.
Did you ever confirm how many marriages and who he married? We're struggling to get past Sam's father John (married to Mary).
Hope you can help.
-
Samuel John West Smith married Emma Halton nee Tooms 22 Jan 1877 at Northampton Reg office. She had been living with him since at least 1866 and had her first child by him in that year. I don't know when her first husband died exactly. She had two sons by Edward Halton who had both died by 1863. It's only speculation that it was around then that the marriage failed and she took up with SJWS. She had six children with Samuel and then he left her sometime after the 1881 census and if he did marry again it was bigamously. He died in 1887 reg in Peterborough district.
They were living together in the 1871 census but there is a gap in the children's births from 1867 to 1877. Of course there could have been more who died between that time.
-
Almost Right Poppet the one that died in Peterborough in 1887 is a different man, our Samuel John West Smith (or John Smith/Samuel Smith depending on how he felt it seems) died in Hertford in 1905 and it seems he never married Kate Marriot, at least I have never found a marriage certificate or record.