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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Cell on Sunday 26 September 04 04:45 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I didn't know where to post this, here or in the beginners room:
Where do I start on tracing immigrants? My Husbands G, G grandfather came from Russia "Charles Carlsen" ( although I think it was a Scandinavian country he came from in today's geography , but born In then Russia , the borders moving in history)
He was a sailor (ships carpenter) , and always marked the censuses For ( former) Russia .One of the censuses (1891) he said he came from Christ something ( it looks like Christanasher, but there is no such place that I know of. It's impossible to tell by the writing)
In 1901 it says on the census Russian British subject, again saying Russia where he was born , 1891 and 1881 it said For Russia. and didn't say British subject. So I would guess he gained his British citizenship between 1891 and 1901.
We Haven't even looked into tracing this ancestor because thought it may be a hopeless cause, and resigned ourselves to think that there is no way to trace his line. Scandinavia is full of carlsen's unlike the Uk. And I don't know where to start.
I've got a ship's name he was working on in 1881, when he was "unmarried" ( it was docked in England, Plymouth , so I have him on a census for 1881, which was the SS Greece - a ship that used to carry a lot of immigrants going to the USA I believe )
Anyway my question is, when they got British citizenship are there good records anywhere for this in the early days . Basically where do I start on tracing this ancestor, or finding records for his British citizenship . Are there any? ( perhaps this really should be in the beginners forum) , and will his British citizenship records ( if any) list his parents in Russia ( who I don't think came to Britain) , or do they hold any relevant info on it that I can use to trace him further? Or are these records hopeless for that type of thing?
Also would he have got British citizenship by marrying his wife ( who is British - Welsh, swansea ,where he lived with her and died ) - although I don't think they were ever legally married, I went through twenty years looking for their marriage to order their marriage cert ( cost me a fortune!) , and there isn't one entry for him ( 1837 site). Or would he have gained it by the amount of time he lived in Britain.
In other words - Help!! ;D.
Where on earth do I start with tracing him any further into his own country? ( where do I find his British citizenship records) . I have 1901, 1891 and 1881 , in 1881 he was unmarried on a docked ship , 1891 and 1901 he is with his "wife" in the censuses .. and that's all
I can't get a marriage cert, I haven't found a marriage, and honestly don't think they were ever legally married ( they were living in sin) . I have his daughters Birth cert , my husbands G grandmother, but that does not tell me anything that I don't already know about him.
I just don't know where to start on this person, and how to trace him back, and who his parents are.
Should I give up before I even start on this person? Or are there ways to trace him back into Russia and so on , to find his parents etc?
Thanks :)
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P.S
This is from the 1891 census, where I can not make out the place name where he was born ( his other census in 1881 say "For ( former) Russia, and 1901 says Russian British subject " - this 1891 one says the place name, but I can't make it out what it says)
Can anyone make out this place name, christinarker, Christinasher it looks like to me. Or have any ideas what it says, or what it is supposed to say, and any idea where it is? I don't think those two above place names exist . I think the census person has misspelt the name
Thank you for any ideas
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Hello,
Whilst it appears fairly hopeless at the moment, don't give up!
There are few options and comments I can list - a bit like brainstorming!
Swansea had many immigrants - and you may well find that the area where lived was mainly where immigrants lived. There were lots of Italians in Wales for example - perhaps contact the relevent FHS, local studies library, records office and see if there was a specific Russian community.
Check about possible places of worship. For example, teh Italian community was so large in Clerkenwell London they have their own church & have done so since the circa 1870s, the Italian community in Woking Surrey also have a church from 1950!
He may have been Jewish.
Contact the Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain http://www.jgsgb.org.uk/
Or, if the boundaries changed the Anglo German FHS may have some details
http://www.art-science.com/agfhs/
Registration of Aliens visiting England started in 1792, and your relative would have had to registered with the Police. Naturalisation records would be at Kew. Many of the Alien records may not have survived or perhaps will be at the records office.
You mention Plymouth. have you tried Devon Records Office regarding any passenger lists? Its a long shot, but worth a try? My local paper (in South Devon) where we still have a working dock lists each week which ships are docking or are in dock. We often see Russian ships here!
I also came across these web sites which might be of interest.
http://www.mtu-net.ru/rrr/
http://www.genealogylinks.net/europe/rus.htm
One further long shot is have searched for a marriage using slight varients? - such as Carlson instead of Carlsen.
Have you tried FreeBMD? posted to the Russian list on Rootsweb, Or to the Welsh mailing lists - there is one for Swansea. Even placed a posting on the Welsh section of Rootschat.
I would records any references to your Carlsen surname that I came across in the UK as you never know if there is perhaps a connection.
There is also the Federation of Eastern Europe FH Societies http://feefhs.org/
There is also an online map room http://feefhs.org/maps/indexmap.html
I hope that this lot has given you some hope! Good Luck!
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The first one looks like Christinarler / Christinarker / Chrisilinarker / Chrisitinarker ? ??? ?
The second one is Glamorgan Swansea
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Hello,
Is this not a form of CHRISTIANIA [ OSLO ] Norway.
Industries include shipbuilding.
Kaja
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Thank's for the all the replies.
I'll have a good look through those links you provided JDG.
It does look as if I have work cut out tracing him, and may have to wait until I get back to the UK to really have a good crack at tracing him.
Yes, I've tried all varients of Carlsen. I went through twenty years of all quarters looking at the "CAR" entries ( I went through them all on the 1837 site) , and none match him. I have his wife's maiden name ( from one of thair childrens birth certificate), and have traced her to the next generation back so far. Also I searched using her maiden name in the marriages on the free BMD. It looks like they never legally got married, although they were living with each other up until he died ( there's a death for him on the BMD)
"christiania" sounds very plausible kaja. He was a ship's carpenter, he also named his daughter, my husband's G grandmother Chritistina. The family always thought she was Swedish until we started to trace her and discovered it wasn't her but her father, and it seems he came from then Russia to the UK ( according to the other censuses we have) But with a name like Carlsen, I doubt very much he was a Russian , but scandanavian
Thank you all for the help :)
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Well, I simply typed in "Carlsen" into Ancestry's Census and immediately this popped up in front of my eyes for 1871:
Carl Carlsen, married, male, 23, able seaman, born: Christinestadt, Russia
Isn't this the same man? Carl>Charles
On a vessel named "Fortuna"
In the Royal Dock Grimsby, County: Lincolnshire
Registration District: Great Grimsby
What do you think?
UKgirl
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Hello Cell,
I don't know whether you ever actually looked at the original version of your 1881 Census for Chas. Carlsen, or just the LSD transcription, but they are somewhat different.
Under the heading "Where Born" it actually says "Finland Russia". It does not say "(For) Russia" as the LSD version states.
However, under the final column "Deaf-and-Dumb etc." where notes are often made (for example, in Manchester there is a marking (like a tick) for all those born in Ireland, which has been added at a later date) there is a squiggle next to all those born overseas. This has also been added later (different writing) and in some places can be clearly read as "For", presumably denoting "Foreigner" or "Foreign born".
Presumably, as in Manchester, someone was collecting additional statistics at a later date.
So all your pondering about "place of birth" is actually answered clearly for you.
In addition, a Google search shows Christinestadt as Russian Finland.
Perhaps you have already sussed all this out, but if not, it's a little extra to add to your info.
Have you considered that your fellow was married twice? You know what they say about sailors ;)
I also did a search of Grimsby and Fortuna (I am obviously short of something to do!) and I came up with an funny section about sailors' wives absconding and the sinking of this ship "Fortuna" at a later date. It makes for a little extra colour to your notes!!!!
Good luck
UKgirl
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Hi
If you look on 1891 he appears to have a child, Charles (11) who should appear on the 1881 census with mother Mary - what is her maiden name?
ec
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This appears to be them in 1881 - transcribed as CALLISON
Mary CALLISON Head M Female 28 Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Charles CALLISON Son Male 2 Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Mary M. CALLISON Daur Female 3 m Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Mary E. KEMSBURY Visitor U Female 6 Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales Scholar
8 Gam St Swansea Town, Glamorgan, Wales
RG11 / 5358 folio 14 Page 21
ec
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Hi,
I've only just logged in and seen you above messages Ec and Uk girl, thank you for the help.
Ec , yes I have that information from 1881 . I've got all his family from 1881,1891 and 1901 ( it's also mistranscribed on the original too as callison by the enumerator in 1881 - but it's definitely them. I t's the enumerator's mistake and not the LDS mistranscription for once :) )
I have Mary in 1871 when she was not married to him too,and earlier _ traced her line back no problem - The Johnsons ( she also comes from a sea faring family - more ruddy sailors! lol ;D) but her family were welsh , pilots and stayed in Swansea so she was easy)
Uk girl ,in 1871 I couldn't find him. I just looked at the 1871 census info you have pointed me to , impossible to tell if it's him really, it may be him if he was married to someone else before Mary, or he was lying about his marriage condition in the 71 census
In 1881 I think it is him on a ship in Plymouth - transcribed as Chas Carlson, again no way to really tell for 100% it is him .
I could not view the original in 1881, Ancestry have the wrong image for the "household" . I've just taken another look and it's still the same ( I keep meaning to email them about this ,that they have the wrong image for Chas Carlson) . when I view the original image , he is not on there, the original image I get is a ship "lady of the lake" with four names on it, "headed" by David stephens master mariner , none of them are his name. I tried looking through all the ships in the dock, and" Greece " and "Lady of the lake" , but can't find the correct image for him.
can you view the correct image for him in 1881? if so, what am I am doing wrong? When I press the "view the original image" for "chas carlson" , I get the lady of lake image ,one of one image, with four names on it, first name on the list is David stephens
1871 he wasn't married to Mary yet ( nee Johnson, I have their daughters Christina's birth cert so know Mary's maiden name - she is also buried with her parents charles and Mary, and son is charles junior is in the very next grave to hers) . They married in 1873 - I haven't got their marriage cert yet, it will be the very next one I order - I've just ordered a load of certs for other lines - money, and more money.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,47221.msg187588.html#msg187588 ( I found Charles marriage to Mary a few months back in 1873 under the name of Karlson)
Thanks both for your help :)
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Hello again, glad you got the message.
Just for comparison's sake:
(1) 1871 Carl Carlsen; ditto(Mar); 23; Able Seaman; Christinestadt, Russia
(2) 1881 Chas. Carlsen; ditto(Unmar); 32; Seaman; Finland, Russia
(3) 1891 Charles Carlsen; Mar; 42; Ship Carpenter; Christinasher
(4) 1901 Charles Carlsen; Mar; 57; Ship's Carpenter; Russian, British Subject
Of course you know that (3) and (4) are the same person.
And I am sure that you know that "Chas." is the correct, accepted abreviation of Charles, just as "Geo." stands for George and "Thos." stands for Thomas.
When you see them all in a line, they certainly look like the same man. The major discrepancy is the state of marriage of BOTH (1) and (2). I don't think that your fellow "lied" in 1871 as you suggested, but it may simply have been that "run-away" ditto that we have all encountered, especially when someone is not in their own home on the night of the Census. (1) and (2) were both on ships on the night that the Census was taken.
On the other hand, when you eventually get your hands on the marriage certificate, you may find out that he was a widower.
How to see the correct Census page for 1881:
Click on the image, then click above on vessels, then click on Greece SS (NOT on Greece), then click on Page 2 of 3.
Good luck,
UKgirl
PS. If you want a really good laugh ;D, please check how many people living in Wales in 1861 were born in Finland!
Answer:
824, most of whom, strangely enough, are called JONES!!! And funnily enough, they have all decided to "settle" in Flintshire!!! ???
It must be a really beautiful place! ;)
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Thanks for that Uk girl , I have just found the original 1881 image with your above help.
Interesting to see it is written as Finland Russia and not For Russia as transcribed. Whether it is him or not, the unmarried is written as "do" down the list . I tend to take those "do's" with a pinch of salt a lot of the time until I investigate them. I've had too many that have turned out incorrect, especially for the birth places of wives and children of the husband/head of household written as "do" etc.
I sort of worked out months ago it may have been Finland that he may come from, with his birth place in 1891 written as what looks like to be "Christinasher"- no such place , the writing is bad on the census. And Russia in 1901 .Finland was under Russian Control in the days he was born - Hence my signature saying possibly "Finland"
I'll trace 1871 "Carl Carlson" to see if he dissapears , or is still there in Britain (to see if he could be a possibility for Charles).
If 1871 and 1881 are him, one of those ships ( or another ship he was working on) must have come into Swansea at one point between 1871 and 1881 for him to meet and marry Mary.
I haven't been back into this Carlsen line for a few months now. I've been currently focusing/concentrating on another line( I've been giving my husband's Carlsen's a little holiday :)). So, "My" Carlsen line is not really 100% fresh in my memory at this moment in time.
The marriage cert of Charles and Mary is the next thing cert I will be ordering. I just haven't got around to ordering that one yet, it's the next on my long list of certificates to get.
Thanks again :)
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Hello,
Have you tried :
http://www.norwayfamily.com/
http://genealogy.about.com/od/sweden/
You will find good information in English
Steve
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Were Mary's parents John (1827) and Mary (1829) ? I think my partner has links to this seafairing Johnson family. Let me know
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Were Mary's parents John (1827) and Mary (1829) ? I think my partner has links to this seafairing Johnson family. Let me know
Hi, I've only just seen your above message, so sorry for not replying to it sooner
Johnson's ; I've had to look through some of my folders to refresh my memory with this line . I traced the Johnson's about two years ago, so the Johnson line is not really fresh in my memory at the moment.
Here are some of the details: John Johnson , occupation mariner abt 1828, Mary his wife also abt 1828 ( Nee Davies. Then I think her father is Morgan T Davies - her mother is Jane Hancorne).
Some of their (John and Mary Johnson) children are:
John abt 1850
Mary 1853( my husband's GG grandmother, the one who married Charles Carlsen)
Rebbecca abt 1857 ( I've know I've left some of the children off, I'm trying to look through all my folders here)
John Johnson father was also called John Johnson abt 1801 occupation pilot ( who had a lot of other children besides John junior his son )
John Johnson junior ( 1828) lived at Elephant st (Swansea) in 51, and the Graig in 61 ( Swansea) (ref RG9/4104, folio12 schedule 070), and in 1841 lived with his father John senior at little wind st . I think I've got that right - I'm trying to find all the censuses and info in my folders on the Johnson's.
This Johnson family gets very confusing. I know this line drove me around the bend at the time when I was tracing them ,with them all being called John Johnson, father's sons, brothers etc etc lol
The oldest sons in each generation are all called John Johnson and the family are all pilots and mariners.
when I first traced this John Johnson family I started to get visions of lots of little "Don Johnson's" running around with white shoes -Miami vice ;D lol! It drove me totally around the bend.
Are these yours too, the Johnson's who lived in little Wind st (1841), then Elephant st (1851)and the Graig(1861) ?
:)
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Now i know this must fit in somewhere!!!!
I have these details so far (all bmd's etc are from microfilm in Swansea archives)
1841 Little Wind Street
John Johnson - 40 - Pilot (christened 28/7/1797, Swansea St Mary)
Elizabeth Johnson - 30
children Jane, John, Thomas, Eliza, Mary and Nicholas
+ Nicholas Johnson - 80 - Pilot who i believe is John's father but have no proof except John's christening above says fathers name Nicholas. I think Nicholas was married twice to Ann Morgan 21/5/1793 and Jane Jones 15/2/1808
John Johnson (snr) married Elizabeth Thomas 29/10/1833 in Swansea St Mary but prior to this where your link comes from did he marry Jane Morris 7/2/1821, Swansea St Mary (let me know if this is right?)
Nicholas Johnson (snr) buried 8/11/1844 in Swansea St Mary (note 1841 census states Nicholas born Foreign)
I'm more confused the more i write, still have not boxed this family off, need some help
The branch you have down to your husband is from John senior like you say, my partner's is from George Johnson (1806), John seniors brother. I have your John junior born 7/11/1827 and christened 14/12/1827. I have three siblings for him. Nicholas (who i have as the eldest born 6/5/1821 died 25/1/1836), Jane Johnson born 7/10/1825 and a very confusing Ann 14/11/1825 which is obviously not possible as the too birth dates are too close together!
That means i Have all Nicholas as the first borns not John!
Nicholas born circa 1758
Nicholas born circa 1794
Nicholas born 1821
and then John born circa 1850 (brother of Rebecca and Mary)
I have the 1851 and 1861 census details as you and then 1871 in 40 Vincent street
send me a PM with your email if you wanna swap more detailed info!
David
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This page might interest you:
Behind the Name:
http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/fin.php
KAARLE m Finnish
Finnish form of CHARLES
KAARLO m Finnish
Finnish form of CHARLES
KALLE m Swedish, Finnish
Swedish and Finnish pet form of KARL
Also:
KARL
Gender: Masculine
Usage: German, Scandinavian
Pronounced: KAHRL (German, English)
German and Scandinavian form of CHARLES.
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=n&terms=karl
CARL
Gender: Masculine
Usage: German, Scandinavian, English
Pronounced: KAHRL (German, English)
German form of CHARLES.
http://www.behindthename.com/php/search.php?nmd=n&terms=carl
An item on this page indicated that Kalle = Charles:
http://www.sukututkimusseura.fi/place/placewae.htm
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His birthplace may be Kristinestad/Kristiinankaupunki, and there are some Finnish parish records online:
http://hiski.genealogia.fi/hiski?en
However, there are a lot of Carls with fathers Carl in the right sort of time frame (it's set up so if you enter Karl etc you'll get Carls back).
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Hi thanks so much for the replies Jorose and Tricia, I've only just see them. :)
Hi David, I've only just got back into this side. When I eventually put all my info together on the Johnson's I will send you the info - As it stands now, it's all over the place in various files . The Johnson's got confusing last time and I put it down for a while- this time I'm sorting it out for once and for all (I hope) ;D
I think you may have two families mixed up. Just my thoughts: I think that there were two Nicholas Johnson's around Swansea at the time - one married an Ann in 1793 , the other a Jane in 1808. Reason being as in 1820 "our" Nicholas Johnson was still married to an Ann.
He and his wife seem to have fallen on hard times in the 1820 as he and Ann put in a claim with Trinity house in Swansea ( the seamens mission) . That's unless he married three times, which is possible of course - ie Ann first then Jane and then to a another Ann .
The report of the coroners inquest of Nicholas Johnson ( There was an inquest into his death in 1844) could mention family members , I'm about to email for the cost of it , and order it by post, which will probably take a few weeks by slow mail.
confused?, I am !
Kind regards :)
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Hi - Struggling to do something similar and getting nowhere fast! My great grandfather is placed on his Master Mariners certificate in Port of London 1836 born Auclaw Prussia. Where is that??
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Hi
I too am struggling. Abram Carlson b c 1833 Sweden, a Ship's Carpenter. What is it about Swedish Ship's Carpenters?
Have you looked for Charlson?
I did find mine under that name when he obviously registered anything because of his accent ;D but he never mentioned his place of birth.
IGI has a Abram that could be him and it looks like I'm going to have to hire a Swedish researcher.
It doesn't help that his son names him Edward on the wedding cert but all the censuses have him as Abraham.
You have my sympathies. Good luck
Wendy
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Not that it's a lot of help to you Wendy, but we have Carlsson friends in Sweden and have been told that the C spelling is posher than the K ;) ::) ;D
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Hi madpants
I expect nothing less. ;D ;D
CHARLSON must be royalty ;D
Wendy
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Re: the listing of Carl being married in an early census, I wouldn't assume that was right.
My GG grandfather was a merchant seaman from Denmark and was listed as married on board ship some years before his marriage to my GG grandmother. For a while, my sister wondered about bigamy, but I believe it was a simple case of laziness and lack of knowledge/interest of the person who submitted the information. I suspect that one person (master/captain etc) gave the enumerator the data on all the crew, so the ages and birthplaces might be correct, being on ship records or being well-known, but a sailor's marital status would likely be unknown and of little interest to the master of the ship.
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You are able to look at immigrants and aliens on the National Archive Site.
There are records for certificates for alien arrivals and naturalisation case papers can be searched
Naturalisation case papers (1789-1934)
Search the Catalogue (HO 1, HO 45 and HO 144) by last name (surname) and nat* for naturalisation case papers.
Web Address:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/naturalised-britons.htm
Hope this helps.
Regards Krysa.
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Thank you very much Krysa
I am still looking!!
I have very little info pre-wedding [in 1862] . No place of birth and I believe some sailors just walked off their ship and disappeared. He is missing in 1871, and his wife is listed as a Seaman's wife.
I will check out the link but I'm not sure whether he was naturalised.
Regards Wendy ;D ;D
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Kristinestad (swedish) - Kristiinankaupunki (finnish) - Christinenstadt (german) in Finnland
german wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristinestad
english Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristinestad
http://maps.google.at/maps?hl=de&q=kristinestad+finnland&ie=UTF-8&tab=wl
the name Carlson/Carlsen is in any case a scandinavian, in fact sounds swedish.
the orgin can not be russian, but maybe once some of family settled there.
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Hi Cell
I took a look at this thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=760502.msg6116511#msg6116511 and wondered if you have Charles' parents names. If so I can perhaps take a look to see if I can find him in Finland.
Ian