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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: newbie on Thursday 09 February 06 08:10 GMT (UK)
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Hi Military Experts,
I have this photo, I don't know of who, it was found in a box of old photos that belonged to my Mother and StepFather, can you give me any information about it?
Thanks
Newbie
oops forgot to attach it!
oh dear, 3rd time, first scan was to low quality, and second, 3rd is okay but the size is too big.
have to try again.
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try again..... ::)
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is that okay or do I have to make it smaller?
Newbie
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it's fine as it is.....
there's not a lot to go on though, but for my 2d, I'd say he's army, a private, in tropical uniform (so east of gibralter) and a signaller
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Is that a cross on his fob? and a watch? or is that something else entirely??
Is there anything written on the photograph at all Newbie? name of photographer
maybe??
Annie :) :)
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Thank you harribobs, I wondered if the flags indicated a signal connection, can you make out what is hanging from his jacket buttons, I thought it was a cross at first, but zooming in on the image it doesnt look at all like a cross/crucifix, have you any idea whether WW1 period or later (WW11)?
sorry for my ignorance!
Newbie
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HAA,
we posted together, well spotted Annie!
Newbie
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Hello Annie,
No the whole thing has been cut, probably in half, the only part of the photographers name left is M.B. ??then the surname looks like it might start with an M
I'll scan that bit for you and post in a minute.
that dangly thing looks like a cross, but not when you zoom in on it its seems to be rounded where the cross bar is, but it isn't a cross bar(well not to me)
Newbie
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i'd say it's not military, it's a watch fob by the look of it
personally I'd say pre world war one
compare:- Archie Dicks manchester Regiment about 1903
(http://harribobs.smugmug.com/photos/52962527-L.jpg)
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opps forgot to mention your man's good conduct stripe, (he didn't get caught ;) )
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is that what that is? I bet he's not one of mine then ;D
I've re scanned the whole image so will try and attach it
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Annie, can you see the photographers name?
underneath the M.B. ?? it says I think,
ALLARAE, I tried to do a rubbing of itbut no luck with that, but it's worn away some of the brown board and its a little clearer to see.
Harribobs, thanks for that info pre 1903? as early as that?
thank you,
Newbie
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that will be the city where the photo was taken, above it will be the photographers name
nice google research job for you there!! ;D
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What about Allahabad India??
Annie :-\
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allahabad..certainly was garrisoned
good shout!
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I have to leave in a bit - I haven't had time to go through this - but maybe we could find the photographer!! ;)
http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/rcs_photographers/index.html
(Though I'm going off on a tangent - aren't I? ) sorry I get carried away!!
Thing to do now is ... find out which regiments where there at that time!! :-\
Annie
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Allahabad ?
it could be, I wonder if PrueM will know on the photo board, Denn might be able to enhance it a bit, the last letter could be a B and what I thought was an R could be an H it def says ALLLA?A? then its cut!
Do you know what regiments would have been there?
thanks for the help
Newbie
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Allahabad ?
it could be, I wonder if PrueM will know on the photo board, Denn might be able to enhance it a bit, the last letter could be a B and what I thought was an R could be an H it def says ALLLA?A? then its cut!
Do you know what regiments would have been there?
thanks for the help
Newbie
if thats NOT Allahabad i'll show my...... in rochdale (again ;D)
as for which regiments???? we don't know which year thats the first problem
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hello,
oooh, cheeky! ;D
it certainly looks like it might be doesn't it.
I've put a request on the photo board to ask (PrueM) if the photo can be dated? so that may be a good place to start. If we can date the photo we can nail the regiment? maybe!
thanks Harribobs.
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How come Rochdale gets all the fun .... again :P :P :P :P
As a start - you might want to start thinking about where your Mum's and Stepdad's family came from!! ::)
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Don't think its my Mums as have very little photos of that side surviving family split. But that was Wales.
Step father was London/Middlesex.
Newbie
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Hi Newbie,
I would throw my lot in with Harribobs on this except that I am unsure of the time frame. The only other thing that I can add is that it is a watch chain and fob end that is coming from his breast pocket and hanging down via the button. It also appears to have either a coin or a medallion dangling from the chain.
old rowley
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Allahabad for sure and K. Roh or K. Rohm or K. Roehm perhaps as the photographer.
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did someone mention middlesex,the middlesex regt had a dark border round their stripes,just like the man in the picture,hes definately in the tropics because hes wearing the clip on type stripes and insignia,it was so he could wash his uniform without unpicking the thread all the time and sewing them back on again,the heat out there would mean he had to change his uniform daily,i am with chris on this one,1901-1910,very nice picture,mack
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PrueM asked me to redo a better resolution scan of just the writing, I decided to try "autolevel " thingy as well, I think this may make it easier to determine?
Newbie
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Old Rowley,
Thanks for the information, I wondered whether it was part of his uniform that I could see, but a watch chain and fob will do nicely.
Hack, does the new scan help with the writing? I think the first one is an M? definitely looks like it may be Allahabad now ? thanks for the help.
Mack,
hello again so its Middlesex Reg't, in the Tropics, do you think it could be the same chap that you helped me with before, he was in the Middlesex, you called him an "an old contemptible". but he signed up in 1914? I have a researcher looking for his papers at Kew but haven't found them yet.
Chris (Harribobs?) thank you again,
Newbie
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It's photographed at Allahabad and the photographers name was M. B. XXXXX
an 'Old Contemptible' was a soldier that fought right at the start of the first world war, it comes from a remark (supposedly) made by the kaiser, referring to the British army as 'that contempable little army'
cheers
chris
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Hi all,
Newbie, I put a reply on the other board, but I've had a further look at the photographer's name and I think the last name starts with an "N"...I haven't been able to find out anything about any photographers fittng the bill, though :-\ (yet). It's definitely Allahabad though, and I think between 1900 and 1910, possibly a little later.
Prue
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Hello again,
Prue, thanks very much for the info, if it is (and its a big if because I haven't a clue) the old contemptible he was 28 in 1915 when he married, do you think that would fit,
Chris, could he have joined the Middlesex earlier than 1914, then left and then rejoined?
just a thought?
Newbie
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Prue,
I'm just looking at the capital letter of the last name,
midway down the first stroke,(it starts with the same style as the M doesn't it?) there is a join in the middle that could be the end of a down stroke or the beginning of an up, and also, there seems to be the start of a down stroke coming from that middle stroke, could it be an R or a K?
Newbie
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Chris, could he have joined the Middlesex earlier than 1914, then left and then rejoined?
just a thought?
Newbie
yes he would probably been in an army reserve and called back to the colours
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Chris, Whoohoo, thank you, I think I 'm on the right track.. lets hope I receive his papers, I hope they've survived ::)
What age would men/boys enlist in the Middlesex approx?
if he was 28 in 1915, then would he have enlisted at 18?
Newbie
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?? he could have joined as a boy as young as 15 ( i think)
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Mack, Rowley, Harribobs, Annie, Prue and Hack,
Have now found this information in his papers!
33 Division
British Expeditionary Force
10983 L/Cpl William Thomas Allen M.M.
Middlesex Regt.Attd 98th BDE Signal Section
Your Commanding Officer and Brigade Commander have informed me that your distinguished yourself in the field on the 10th/20th April 1918I have read their report with much pleasure R.J. Pinney, Major General Commanding 33rd Division.
It's a brownish discoloured card some type printed and his details handwritten
Discharge papers:
Character Certificate of No:10983 Rank: Private
Name : W.Allen M.M.
Unit and Regiment or Corps from which discharged: Middlesex Regiment
This is to certify that the ex-soldier named above has served with the Colours for Thirteen years 34 days and his character during this period was exemplary sober trustworthy was awarded military medal and bar for galantry in the field. Signed..
Date of discharge 31 March 1920 , Hanwell - Place.
So using the time date calculator I estimate he enrolled on Tuesday 26 Feb 1907!
I only have an estimate of his year of birth at 1887.
and
have found that the Middx Regt were in Allahabad
Allahabad :1/10th Bn Middlesex Regt. Jan 1916 - Mar 1917. To Lucknow.
Lucknow :1/10th Bn Middlesex Regt. Mar 1917 - 11 Nov 1918.
so that might fit with the photo.
Thanks for all the help
Newbie
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Major-General Pinney, in April 1918, was commanding the 33rd Division in France so the second period in India is ruled out.
Corporal Allen was a brave soldier to have been Mentioned in Dispatches and also to have been awarded the Military Medal. I had a great-uncle who was similarly honoured and he received an annual small amount which was recorded in the London Gazette. You may find some useful information there.
The 2nd Battalion Middlesex Regiment was at Allahabad in 1915. 8)
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Nice work Newbie :D I'm so pleased for you! :)
Prue
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Hi,
I'm no expert on military uniforms - but why don't you take it/send it to the War Museum or the local Regiment museum - they may well be able to identify it.
Also, IF you can get a close up on the buttons, they may help. All soldiers had regt buttons.
good luck!
Liz
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newbie,i dont want to spoil your fun,but be careful about when he enlisted,if he was under eighteen when he joined the army,then his term of service only counts from the age of eighteen,his prevoius service as a boy doesnt count,mack
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Hi,
I'm no expert on military uniforms -
Also, IF you can get a close up on the buttons, they may help. All soldiers had regt buttons.
good luck!
Liz
err no they didn't..especially not in the great war, the general service pattern was the most used
Newbie
well done on getting his papers Good work!
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Oops, sorry - I said I was no expert. ;
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Hi Hobbis/Liz,
just like to say a warm welcome to rootchats and to the armed forces board.
old rowley
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Hi Hobbis/Liz,
just like to say a warm welcome to rootchats and to the armed forces board.
old rowley
indeed, they're a pretty good bunch on here ...not all as grumpy as me ;)
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Thank you all for the help and advice,
Hack - that's interesting I did wonder when he was in France because he is listed in the Gazette on 2 occasions.
So he was probably in India earlier than those dates I found.
Mack - oh bother, I'd forgotten about "boy" service, so he could have enlisted much earlier than the dates I arrived at.
- his papers were discovered by my brother in a box! The researcher I used wasn't able to locate anything at the N.A.
But what a find!
a happy Newbie :)
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Hello everyone,
and thanks for the warm welcome!
Cheers,
Liz