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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: sarah on Tuesday 07 February 06 21:13 GMT (UK)
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Who Do You Think You Are?
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/images/celebgal_02_horrocks.jpg)
"Jane Horrocks is fascinated by the long line of indomitable working class women in her family past, but it is a 'black sheep' male ancestor and his expensive gift to his niece that makes for the most intriguing mystery of all....
Wednesday 8th February 9pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/wdytya_celeb_gallery_05.shtml
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Not long now... less than an hour. :) :)
I hope Jane's family is as interesting as the others have been, but from the teasing insight it looks like it might be.
Hope Paul E isn't getting too giddy about her "sexy voice". Just think, Paul, a whole hour of her talking!!
Sally
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Family Ties on BBC 4 afterwards is a real treat too.
Anthony and Zoran's Big Adventure
"Though he is a Mancunian, Anthony Shelmerdine-Boskovic has some Serbian blood in him, and he is obsessed by that aspect of his family background. He worships his grandfather Zoran, and remembers the latter recounting the battle with the Nazis in Europe.
Unfortunately, Zoran passed away two years ago, having failed to make it back to the country he had to leave at the age of 17. So Anthony decides to make the trip for him, by taking his grandfather's ashes back home.."
Contains some strong language. :-X :-X
http://www.open2.net/familyties (http://www.open2.net/familyties)
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I wish the BBC would give more information about where they get the information from.
I'm trying to find someone who emmigrated to Canada and was killed in a saw mill accident. How would I find the ship he travelled on?
I don't think today's episode was as good as the others. There were many branches left unreasearched.
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I am glad you said that Andrew123.
Where was the proof? Pure speculation - especially as regards poor little Thomas, who might have died of anything.
Is it good practice to construct your family tree based solely on the work of others? (Although I am sure in this case they were well-researched).
Where were the certificates?
And as for JH nicking her poor parents' bed! I have gone right off her!
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I really enjoyed Jane's quest. She got really got stuck into it.
We live in Bury, and Rawtenstall is the next village/town along (and yes it is pronounced "Rottenstall" locally!).
I thought Sam Horrocks was a star. He was dead excited to show her the coat of arms, and his box of Horrocks stuff. Let's hope we see him on RootsChat!
Jane said about the height of children working in cotton mills and how close the machinery would have been to their eye level, and how frightening it must have been. I'd neve thought of it like that. I also then wondered if the noise perhaps had a bearing on the local dialect due to hearing while working...
The big question lies in what happened to the other siblings that were disowned? I wonder if we can help?
Bravo!
Trystan
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Did anyone wonder if Sarahs 2 younger brothers might have been her own illegitimate children? Just a thought.
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I enjoyed it, she came across as a right feisty little minx! ;D
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I was surprised they didn't look to see if Sarahs father had married twice.......maybe I missed a bit!
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I've got a "billiard marker" - so I loved that bit, as I didn't really know what he did. My Albert Alexander Bearman is a billiard marker on the 1881 census at the "City and Counties Club" Peterborough.
Personally I was thrilled with the description the man gave. I love it when someone less than respectable turns up. Gives a bit of colour.
Yes ianfao, I wondered if the younger two siblings were in fact hers.
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I enjoyed it, but It would have been nice to have known for sure what little Thomas died of and I would have loved to have known what happened to Sarahs other siblings. Its a big guess to say Thomas died of the effects of the cotton famine when at the same time my rural ancestors were losing far more kids than they did, hundreds of miles away. Likewise. We may be doing Sarah a disservice saying she cut her siblings out of her life when she married. She talked openly about 2 of her brothers, why not the rest. They could have all died.
And they were so ashamed of poor Ernest. I think its great to have a colourful character in the family. You would think he was a mass murderer.
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I enjoyed it too, very different from the previous ones.
I was surprised they didn't order the certificate for Thomas' death, did they look for evidence of marriage or death, or census info for the missing siblings?
I wondered too about the younger siblings, remarriage possibly, or as ianfao said, they could have been Sarah's without some birth certs????? we'll never know, but I liked Jane, especially how she got stuck into the census film reader, all that winding!
Newbie
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So was I the only one shouting at the TV then 'get Thomas's death cert and you'll find out why he died'?
I quite enjoyed this episode although I felt they left a lot out as has been said before about the circumstances of Thomas's death and also what happened to the other siblings.
I liked Jane too, and funnily enough I wondered about the din in the cotton mills and the accents!
Kerry
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Hi
It was enjoyable but I felt all disjointed..... was not planned and thought about, Too many unanswered questions for me!
cheers cardiff ???
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Just had a quick look and George was Head of household in 1891 - although I guess in practice Sarah would have been running the domestic arrangements.
In 1901 she is married, but brother William is with them.
George seems to be married in Salford and his 2 sisters in law are in residence.
Ernest is married to Amy in Rawtenstall (was he the one that went to Oz? I had lost the plot by then!)
Can't find Frederick or John as he sometimes calls himself.
There is a girl who is sometimes Harriet and sometimes Elizabeth. Then Mary J. Assume they are married, but just looking for them.
I wonder if it was something as simple as Sarah disliking one of her sisters in law that caused a rift? There are not many of the next generation, so maybe they just weren't around to be mentioned?
See I can deal in speculation too!!
Arranroots ;)
Why did she call her auntie a liar - that really upset me! Maybe I missed the joke?
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So was I the only one shouting at the TV then 'get Thomas's death cert and you'll find out why he died'?
Kerry
No you weren't cos I was too! Such a lot of time spent on speculation, when they could have found out for sure. As linmey says a few posts ago, many families all over the country were losing children in infancy at this time, so it seemed a waste of a large part of the programme assuming it was directly due to the cotton famine. All that would have been more interesting if they had the death cert in their hot little hand.
As for the other siblings - it was 'assumed' they all lived to adulthood. The first thing I would have done on discovering them,would be to look for possible deaths for them all. It would't have been the first family to have had about 7 children, but only 3 (Sarah + 2 youngest) survived. Certainly not so unusual that the FIRST thought is that they were all complete cads and she disowned them! I dont know how old the others were on the census when they were found, obviously under 10 as they werent on the previous census.
It could be that it was her brothers and sisters that died when she was 12 (maybe in some sort of epidemic), not her parents, and that is where that family story began, but it got twisted over the years. We know she was actually 29 when her parents died.
A good programme, but I agree it did leave a few unanswered questions, and tended to look for the dramatic before ruling out the mundane (a mistake VERY easy to make when doing family history - e.g. if you find 2 marriages for Joe Bloggs of the right age in the right place, it is tempting to think 'how exciting a bigamist in the family' rather than go back to the birth indexes and find that, yes there were 2 Joe Bloggs' born around the same time in that area. )
lizdb
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I agree and something that has been bothering me all night was this bit about Ernest going to Australia.
When she was talking to her aunt about the ring the details were that the cousin had gone to Australia in about 1921 when the ring was given to her mother.
Ernest went to Australia in about 1910 so how could they conclude so quickly it was Ernest that sent the ring, he wasn't a cousin, he was Sarah's brother and others may have gone to Australia.
Or am I missing something here!
Kerry
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Trystan - it is considered to be an established fact that the long vowel sounds of Lancashire and Yorkshire were indeed a result of the noise in textile mills.
Others - Jane Horrocks is super lady but I agree there was a lot of idle speculation. Infant mortality was rife and creating a whole story based on the presumed circumstances of death was a bit futile and an object lesson in bad family history research.
We have had billiard marker here several times - a bit of a wide boy who marked the games, arranged money games and kept the table are clean as well as holding bets and often "running book" on a match. I am not sure there is anything very awful about that. When I was younger and a bit short of money I would work for a while as a bookmaker's clerk on Saturdays or even at evening greyhound races. 8)
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I'd have to agree with you all. I liked Jane and her growing enthusiasm, but the whole program did not have me gripped and left me with too many 'but what about..' questions. May be I would have found it more interesting if I had family from that area involved in the cotton mills.
Did the programme ever find out why one branch of the family were rich and the other so poor? I kind of lost the plot during that bit. I liked Sam Horrocks and desperately wanted to look at all the 'stuff' in his box.
On a better note, I loved Family Ties ;D
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I think I have found Mary
She appears to have married a John Thomas BOND (Haslingden Dec 1888) and in 1891 they are in Gt & Little Marsden where he is a grocer's assistant. In 1901 they are in Nelson with their own business and employee - a brother in law called Frederick J !! (He is misenumerated as BOND). Obviously no great feud at that point then.
A ;)
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Ernest is married to Amy in Rawtenstall (was he the one that went to Oz? I had lost the plot by then!)
Yes Ernest was the one .... and a year after he had gone Amy (his wife) apparently joined him.
Thomas died of Scarlet Fever aged 3 ... it would seem that they did get all of the appropriate certificates but just did not include them in the show itself.
Theres more information in the book that accompanies the series.
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Hi,
Because my mum worked in a Mill at Preston I was very interested in this one, left with lots of unanswered questions though,
but a bit disappointed with Jane Horrocks, first for sleeping in her parents bed than calling her aunty a liar, bit of a harsh thing to say, considering the circumstances.
Family ties was very touching and had me in floods of tears, he obviously loved his granddad very much., what a line that would be to follow, especially the Great Granddad, what a fasinating figure he was,
Jakky.
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I agree with a lot of comments on this - no certificates and excess speculation about familial traits ("she was feisty therefore i get it from her").
But i liked Jane Horrocks and she really got into it in a way that most of the others don't.
And yes, the programme never gives any tips on exactly how people can find certificates, census etc.
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I was a little disappointed in the programme. Too many shots of her walking along, not enough"proof" either. Yes, she was enthusiastic, but something was missing from this one.
I recall they looked at the 1861 and 1881 census for the Cunliffes - but did I blink and miss the 1871 census?
I would have loved to have looked in Sam's box of family items - a genealogists dream come true?
Jan
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No I wondered about the 1871, they didn't mention it, presumably they couldn't find them or something!
Kerry
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Their storyline was that Jane discovers she wasn't the only one to leave her native village...
Well actually the family were living in Stayley, Cheshire in 1871!
There was some confusion with names too - they kept changing them!
;)
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Yes, at the end when she was telling the family about the census entries, she did say after showing the 1881 census "the next one back" which I think should have been cut or corrected.
I also agree that there were too many loose ends left dangling but what I did like is that more sources were used, actually going to the Record Office and checking the microfilm rather than checking the index for the census online the easy way and using the library to check newspapers.
So it did in one way show that there is more work to do than sitting before the computer and pulling up the evidence.
All in all I enjoyed it.
Mary
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Maybe she'll be on here next..... it left so many interesting leads to follow up later, maybe that's why she didn't look for them on the programme, she'd have been on all night!
I'm glad I wasn't the only one saying "what about that death certificate then?" and wondering why she seemed not to have checked out the other censuses for all those missing siblings.
But whether or not the cotton famine was to blame for the death, it was interesting to put things into a historical context. I didn't know about the cotton famine before, and now it's got me wondering whether it might have a bearing on an infant death in my family at about the same time and area, when all the other children in the family survived.
Veron
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Well actually the family were living in Stayley, Cheshire in 1871
I saw that too Arranroots and wondered why? Rawtenstall in 61 and back again 81. That wasn't brought up.
My Dad's Mother was a Cunliffe. Her family were born Hindley Lancs. I don't know if they were related to the Rawtenstall Cunliffe's or not. However I received an email today from a friend who's Grt Grandfather was my Grt Grandfather's brother, to say that Sarah Cunliffe's photograph looked very much like her Grt Grandmother. So we are investigating further.
Many of my Cunliffe's were cotton workers, and it really brought it home to me how hard they worked and how dangerous it was. I didn't know about the cotton famine either, so now will go through my files to look for deaths around that time.
I like Jane Horrocks ... you can take the girl out of Lancashire, but you can't take the Lancashire out of the girl ;)
Su
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I enjoyed the progamme and, yes, I did wonder why they appeared not to have followed up the siblings.
I was particularly interested in Herbert because I discovered a cousin in Australia a few years ago who was born in Toowomba; her parents emigrated in 1913. Her father was in the Army Reserves and was called back to his regiment in 1914; he was killed in Flanders in 1917.
Our families might well have known each other - I will have to ask her if the name rings any bells.
Regards, Bill
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Thought you might all like to see the following posting on the Rootsweb LANSGEN board.
As a person who was involved with the research for this programme and yes I did get my few minutes of fame with Jane in Rawtenstall Library I can say that the whole of the family history going back a lot further was presented to Jane including the census details and marriages etc but obviously the programme makers just chose which parts they wanted to use to make what they thought was a good television programme. Many details which I thought were interesting (including the 1891 census details which showed Sarah's elder brother as the Borough Rate Collector) were obviously cut from the programme and I can say that I wish I had the programmes budget as all certificates were purchased but they only used the information they wanted too.
I have found with this series of programmes that they do not go back very far but seem to concentrate on the social aspect more than the family History.
Never mind at least Jane has all the information and maybe sometime she will decide to follow it up a little more and find out the whole story of her families life in the Rossendale Valley.
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Why oh hy did she not obtain a death certificate for Thomas, I too wanted to know what he had died from, and if she was so curious and concerned, why on earth did she not get the certificate.
I found it a bit unsatisfying from that point, that is usually the first thing I want to have when I find an ancestor and their children, I want to know what happened to the children, I must have spent a small fortune on obtaining English BMDs, this is where Scotland is much more generous, BMDs can be downloaded for as little as 50p credit, to purchase an English one costs over £7 and yet its the Scots who are supposed to be mean!
To spend as little as £6 the minimum charge for the Scotspeople site, I can obtain quite a bit of information and certificates, now that is good value.
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Not being able to watch the show in oz :'( :'( Did they have any detail of how they found Ernest in Australia? Post 1901 is a difficult time to find immigration records here - although this may be Ernest and his wife
CUNLIFFE E 36 JUN 1910 ORMUZ B 803 002
CUNLIFFE ---- MRS 36 FEB 1911 OTRANTO B 819 009
being Mr E arriving Jun 1910 on the Ormuz (aged 36) and Mrs Cunliffe the following year on the Otranto.
But this is on the Victorian immigrants list - so how they knew they got to Toowomba ??? ??? - perhaps through the death record - I hope they filled in the detailed forms and provided the 100 points of ID the Qld govt require before they will part with a certificate - not to mention refusing to communicate by email.
Here is Ernest in Toowoomba Cemetery
Cunliffe Ernest 63 M 07/02/1937 08/02/1937 METH 3 9 41 Meth P634
No sign of his wife
Trish
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Did anyone wonder if Sarahs 2 younger brothers might have been her own illegitimate children? Just a thought.
I thought that too such a big age gap between them :o
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The first thing I said was with an age gap like that there must have been other children! It's rare to find a 20 year age gap between children at that time in history in my expereince. Most women seemed to be baby factories from the start of their marriage or before to death or old age!!!
Kerry
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Thats exactly what I said too Kerryb! ;D
It would be almost unheard of I think, even accounting for infant deaths at that time, of course by that census others may be have been out working, or lodging elsewhere. That's why I was surprised they didn't look for others in the earlier census to see if any showed up.
But we now know that they did! But it would have helped if they had told us!
Newbie
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Perhaps the answer is for them to do a 2 hour programme out of each person, ask a few of us to star on it and show the whole method including waiting 2 weeks for the certs to drop through the door and every time the postman comes, running down stairs, but no certs just another firm advertising sofas!!!!
Do you think anyone would watch, apart from rootschatters I mean!!????
Kerry ;D
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Hey Guys and Gals,
I haven't read page 2 & 3... (short attention span) ;D
BUT,
Think of us in Australia......
I have had to record all the first episodes...for friends...
You are teasing now......
I will have to wait another year for this series.. :-\
not fair.....
jo
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This episode seems to have attracted the most criticism and you are right Kerry, I felt it needed another hour to tie up all the loose ends. However, I havnt felt that in any way about the other episodes. I felt that it was all neatly pulled together at the end. In this episode there was some guesswork that made us lot feel distinctly uncomfortable I think.
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In this episode there was some guesswork that made us lot feel distinctly uncomfortable I think.
But that is just it ... there wasn't a lot of guess work behind the scenes all of the "proper" research was done ..... the edited version seen on screen was presented completely differently.
Remember as well that this is a program which uses genealogy to produce a show which is for general entertainment it is not an educational "how to" genealogy program.
In this thread there has been a lot of speculation concerning the apparent lack of research based upon what was seen on screen ... read the book .... it puts the show into its proper context and confirms that considerably more research was done.
Personally I believe that the point this show was trying to make was "Ask relatives for information BUT do not believe everything you hear"
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"Ask relatives for information BUT do not believe everything you hear"
Amen to that Falkyrn!! :)
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Yes, I've just got round to reading all these comments - couldn't agree more that it was a programme of missed opportunities and leads not properly followed up. And, Jakky, the thing about her parents giving up their bedroom to their daughter while she was staying, and sleeping in the bunk-beds room themselves I thought slightly bizarre - though absolutely nothing to do with the genealogy, of course!
Keith
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Well, I think most of the other posts have said everything really ;D ...but I just didn't enjoy it as much as the others :(
Oh well - perhaps it was just that the others were so good! ??? :) ;D
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We all know that the BBC want to make a programme that is both entertaining and informative but we don't all want to 'buy the book' in order to get the full picture.
I enjoyed the history part of the programme, ie the workings of the mills but was disappointed from the genealogy point of view.
There is the old saying 'if a job is worth doing, it's worth doing well'
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There is the old saying 'if a job is worth doing, it's worth doing well'
Yes, but what is the job ?
The BBC have not set out to produce a complete instruction course in genealogy the primary purpose of the show/series is entertainment.
Have they done the job well ?
From my understanding much of what was shown was also coloured by Jane Horrocks own wish to concentrate upon the "strong women" (especially one).
Yes they make it all look easy
yes they leave a lot of uncovered territory
but we don't all want to 'buy the book' in order to get the full picture.
;) what would your reaction be if someone said "we don't all want to buy the certificates to get the full picture"
Personally I think the show succeeded in only ONE aspect "don't believe all family stories" but overall it was very similar to the first series and in consequence was very weak.
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In reply to Falkyrn another phrase springs to mind - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing (I'm full of 'em ;D)
Because we all know how difficult, time consuming not to mention expensive this hobby can become, it's all too easy to sit and pick holes in an otherwise entertaining and interesting TV programme.
I won't stop watching but will stop moaning :D
Suey,
who incidentally, just purchased two certs, neither of which belong to my families ::)
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Excellent point, well made Suey ;D...the one about the programme that is ??? :-\ not the buying the wrong certs :( ;D
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Having just returned from an excellent day at the Radio Merseyside Who Do You Think You Are Event, with a throat sore from talking all day - no I wasn't interviewed, that was left to the leader of the Liverpool FHS and some selected visitors with a good story to tell - I wonder if this programme has a lot to answer for.
I've lost count of the number of people who seemed to be quite surprised to find that they had to actually work at finding a birth or marriage before getting the certificate.
Yes the programmes have been entertaining but I do think they could make things just a little clearer that it's not quite as easy as it looks - and I'm sure the helpers on the stand from the Liverpool Register Office met hundreds of people who they had to advise that they can't just walk into a Register Office and walk out with a certificate just like that
I think the ::) ::) of the day was the lady who wanted to know where she would go from here - she had her family traced back to the 1830's, but "Censuses" she said ..... "what are they?" ;D ;D ;D
Mary
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I do agree that the biggest weakness of the shows is a lack of "realism" and this coupled with peoples expectations of the Internet will lead to a lot of disappointed researchers.
The costs are never mentioned ....
just go onto the Internet and get this census and that one .... showing Ancestry each time .....
getting certificates ,no problems ....
hiring professional researchers....
head off to wherever in the world .....
all blithely announced or done without a qualm of conscience about the costs.
Much of what they show is beyond the pocket of the average "joe public" and I think they should do more to show that side of it ... perhaps an add on during the run of the next series 10 minutes after each show following the same member of the public (for the whole series) as they carry out their own research
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I can't see the shows :'( :'( but enjoy reading about them :) :)
Perhaps the lack of "realism" is met by these "follow up" events - as Mary discussed. We were all beginners at some stage - the show catches the interest and the "Events" answer the questions and provide the reality ;D
When I first started reseaching it took me weeks to find out what the IGI was all about - I was too embarrassed to ask. The first site I found was ScotlandsPeople & I had spent quite some pounds there before I found out much of what I was looking for was available at no charge on the IGI.
Trish
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Trish
I agree with you, but my problem was that on the web I can do all the research under the sun but start sending me to records offices and I was out of my depth. Nobody told me to take my research with me or at least know what I was going to look up!!
Kerry
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very interesting. I descend from john horrocks founder of the cotton, his sister mary is my ggg grand mother.
Great to find out jane horrocks is connected to me through the family line.
Would love to hear from sam horrocks.
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very interesting. I descend from john horrocks founder of the cotton, his sister mary is my ggg grand mother.
Great to find out jane horrocks is connected to me through the family line.
Would love to hear from sam horrocks.
Welcome to Rootschat teen!!
Let's hope Sam Horrocks reads this and gets in touch.
Mary
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Welcome to Rootschat, Teen
Kerry
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thanks mary and kerry