RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Derry (Londonderry) => Topic started by: TikTokToo on Saturday 21 January 06 21:58 GMT (UK)
-
I am interested in the parentage and siblings of John Madden (1897-1983) born in Dartress, Articlave, Coleraine in 1897.
His Northern Ireland birth certificate has his parents as Andrew Madden and Annie Madden formerly Kyle. His Scottish marriage certificate in 1921 in Glasgow, Scotland has his mother as Annie Madden m.s. Vance. I'm not sure of the Kyle/Vance issue and is one of the things that I'm trying to establish.
Family folklore suggests that John had siblings George, Thomas, William and Mary but I have no details and would like to know more about them.
Hope someone out there is able to help.
John
-
Hiya John,
Andrew, Annie and James Madden of Dunboe, Articlave signed the Ulster Covenent in 1912.
All the Best, Chris
-
Hello Christopher,
Many thanks for your advice. I now have their signatures and I know where they lived at that precise period of time. I have also picked up some further clues for other relatives which is a big bonus.
Regards
John
-
Update
I thought I would let everyone know that I still haven't solved my initial posting on 21 Jan 06.
With the help of "Christopher" I found out that both Andrew Madden and his wife Annie were alive in 1912, when they signed the Ulster Covenant, and still living in Articlave in Dunboe district. This means that Andrew must have died between 1912-1921. His wife Annie Kyle or Vance died after 1921.
It is also possible that Andrew had a son (or a brother) called James. Other relatives could be George Madden and Martha Madden both of whom were living in Pottagh in Dunboe in 1912.
Hope this triggers someones memory.
John
-
You haven't said if you've done the basics - have you searched the GRO birth register for any siblings of John, and the GRO marriage register for the marriage of Andrew and Annie ?
Adrian
-
Hello kintree,
Thanks for the very quick response.
In 2003 I was in touch with GRO in Chichester St., Belfast and paid for a marriage search for a period prior to 1897. This produced only one "hit" of an Andrew Madden and Annie Boyce on 16 May 1884 at Crossgar Presbyterian, Coleraine. I did not think that the entry was relevant and left it at that.
As far as siblings are concerned I am not at all certain that I have the correct names and anticipated a bit of a costly wild goose chase at £20? a certificate and shied away from getting into that morass. It may well be my only option and would appreciate your comment on it.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
John
-
Certainly £20 per dip is not a sensible way to try pot luck.
Can you easily get to Dublin to search in the GRO there ? It's much cheaper: 20 euro for a day of unlimited searching of the indexes, and then 4 euro for each photocopy of a register-entry. Since all your dates are pre-1922 you should have no difficulty finding what you want.
If Dublin is not possible for you in person, you might want to pay someone to search on your behalf. But that takes the price up again. So how desperately do you want the info ?
Adrian
-
Hello kintree,
Thanks again for following up on my query.
I live in England and a long way from Dublin and I'm afraid it's the old cost/time justification again. It would be lovely to be able to do what you suggest because I have been there before on a short break - nothing to do with genealogy.
You asked me about how desperate I am to have the info. In this genealogy game there are degrees of desperation that I have learned over the years. I have seriously considered paying for a short report on my Madden family at 75 euros (about £52) and have opted out of that which must mean that I am not that desperate. However it may well come that I eventually have to do that in order to progress.
Thanks again for you interest.
Regards
John
-
John, have you had a look at the Emerald Ancestors site ???
-
John- are you sure 1884 Andrew Madden & Annie Boyce marriage in Crossgar Presbyterian Church isn't the correct one. Andrew's father was George Madden, also a labourer.
-
Hello 'Christopher' and 'aghadowey',
You guys have taken me by surprise and I must thank you both for keeping me in mind. It's nearly a year since my last posting on the Maddens and I must admit that I had largely given up on Irish research because of them.
Christopher
I have looked at the Emerald Ancestors site following a tip-off by a fellow rootschatter. However, I failed to find my Andrew Madden. I may have missed something but following your prompting I will have another go.
aghadowey,
The possibility of the Andrew Madden/ Annie Boyce marriage in Coleraine in 1884 being the marriage that I'm after has crossed my mind purely because it is the only marriage of an Andrew that I can find. However I already have my Annie Madden, maiden surname Kyle or Vance, from actual birth and marriage certificates of her son John.
The possibility that my maiden surnames are Kyle, Vance or Boyce seems unlikely but, as we all learn, not impossible.
Even if I saw the Madden/Boyce marriage certificate I could not be certain that they were the correct couple. I do not have any knowledge of my Maddens parents.
Thanks again for taking the trouble to help. I will have another think about where I go next.
-
John
I would say there's no doubt about where to go next: you appear to have continuous residence in Articlave (or round about) from 1897 to 1912. So you should ask someone to check the Censuses of 1901 and 1911. If you find your Maddens in either of those, you will get an idea of whether or not John had any siblings. You will also get the County of birth of each recorded individual, which may help.
You would then get copies of the registration of birth for those siblings, and check the mother's maiden name.
Don't forget that if Andrew Madden married a widow, her surname at marriage would be that of her late (or even latest!) husband.
Adrian
-
Adrian, I think you are correct- 1901 and 1911 census might be best to start.
However, back to 1884 Crossgar marriage- Annie Boyce daughter of Alex Boyce, labourer & Andrew Madden, labourer, son of George also a labourer. Both Andrew and Annie give their residence as Glenleary. Only thing I don't have is names of witnesses.
-
Hello 'kintree' and 'aghadowey'.
It's amazing - a posting can lie dormant for nearly a year and suddenly burst into life. I am grateful for everyone's suggestions and for taking the trouble to respond.
kintree,
We meet again.
I am not a rookie at this game but the suggestion that I should ask someone to check the 1901 and 1911 census, at no financial cost to themselves, is something that I thought could not be done. I am not aware of a facility on the Ireland site that carries out look-ups. Any requests for look-ups that I have noted seem to go unanswered anyway. As for look-ups on the 1911 census I was not aware that this was even a possibility.
I presume that I have got it all wrong.
aghadowey,
Thanks very much for the Madden/ Boyce info. which follows from your previous post. As I said before I have not entirely ruled them out as possibles. Kintree's suggestion that Annie may have been married more than once has not escaped me either and may be part of the confusion on so called 'maiden surnames'.
-
Crossgar marriage gives Annie as Annie Boyce daughter of Alex Boyce so it is doubtful that she was previously married.
-
John
I thought Rootschat was specifically designed for requests for lookups - perhaps I have misunderstood it.
The Censuses of Ireland 1901 and 1911 are publicly available. At the end of this year, the Dublin portion of the 1901 Census MAY become available on the web for free, as a result of a joint project between the National Archives of Ireland and the National Archives of Canada.
Adrian
-
Hi,I'm not sure if anybody is still on this topic, but if anybody is, I know a little about the maddens.
I'm George maddens great great grandson, his wife was named Martha and his children were named Andrew and Annie( my great grandmother). George died on August 8th, 1917, in Belgium, he was in the royal iniskilling fusilers, 10th battalion.
I know very little about Georges life before the war, it would be a great help if anybody did, thanks.
Dave
-
Dave,
George Madden married Martha McCallion in Dunboe Presbyterian Church, Coleraine District on 8 Aug 1907.
Regards
-
Good to see this topic alive again. Now of course both 1901 & 1911 Censuses are free online, so it's easy to find George & Martha and family in 1911:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002801497/
Adrian
-
I have this document, but thank you all the same, on some sites it has the information all wrong.
Dave
-
Dave
Never trust an index (constructed from transcriptions, often as wide of the mark as our own) - always check the original document. Mind you, you can't always trust the original either - note that George is stated to be able to Read & Write, but signs with his mark.
Adrian
-
Not meaning to put a spanner in the works but I have a missing Ann (Sometimes ANNE) Jane Kyle b1876 who I cant track down.. Actually one of three sisters I have to find.
What brings me to add to this post is that her Grandmother was a Mary Vance and I was wondering could this be how you have a possible m s Vance on a cert.
It would be easier for someone from Articlave to meet someone from Portglenone than Crossgar.
Maybe you have already got your puzzle solved and if so ignore my fumbling around in the dark.
Regards
D
-
"It would be easier for someone from Articlave to meet someone from Portglenone than Crossgar."
The Crossgar mentioned in this thread is Crossgar Presbyterian Church outside Coleraine (and not far from Castlerock/Articlave)
-
Now maybe I should have checked that out
Sorry for the trouble
D
-
In case either of the Madden posters return to this topic….
Andrew Madden (c1862-1901) m. Annie (c1866-aft.1911)
The 1901 census gives more children for Andrew & Annie Madden-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Articlare/Dartress/1517008/
Annie Madden is listed as a widow in 1911 census- also says married 26 years (c1885) which ties in with marriage of Andrew Madden & Annie Boyce. Annie lists herself as mother of eight children (all living) which if correct not only mean that all the family are listed below but that there were not sons named Thomas & William as in earlier post.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Bannbrook/Blakes_Lower/588183
DEATH: Andrew Madden, age 38, Oct./Dec.1901 Coleraine registration district, volume 1 page 343
1) George (c1885-1917) m. (1907) Martha McCallion- children: Robert, Anne, others? See below
2) Mary** (1887-aft.1911)
3) James Dunn (c1890-aft.1911)
4) Annie (c1892-aft.1911). Annie in 1911 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Bannbrook/Quilley_Lower/588228)
5) Andrew (c1895-aft.1911)- this might be the Andrew Madden who signed Ulster Covenant in 1911 (certainly not his father)
6) John (1897) m.(1921 Scotland)
7) Jane Eliza (c1900-aft.1911)
8 ) Sarah (c1902-aft.1911)
George Madden & wife Martha in 1911 census- with son Robert & ‘nephew’ Anne-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Bannbrook/Pottagh/588225
Original scanned image shows Anne as their daughter-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002801497
In 1901 George is in this household-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Bannbrook/Blakes_Upper/1517180
George’s date of death listed as 10 Aug.1917-
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1622485/MADDEN,%20GEORGE
Mary Madden** married (July/Sept.1907 Coleraine district) to William Campbell. Her brother George’s marriage to Mary McCallion is on the same page.
Campbell family in 1911- with 2 children Margreta (c1909) & Andrew James (c1910)-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Articlave/Articlave_Town/588086