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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: MagpieCott on Saturday 21 January 06 00:03 GMT (UK)
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Hello! Would really appreciate any help anyone could give me on further researching my family.
I have got as far as details from 1881 census:
Charles Copperwaite born abt 1840 - Clifton, Beds - Head - died 5 Aug 1905
Jane Copperwaite, born abt 1842 - Clifon Beds - Wife
Elizabeth Copperwaite born 1872, Clifton Beds - Daughter -married David Payne - born abt 1870, Clifton Beds.
Can't seem to find the right people before this - can anyone help???
Kind regards
Claire
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Welcome to Rootschat
Hi, Claire,
Is your Copperwaite family on the 1881 census the family with Charles and Jane and 9 children?? (including Elizabeth)
Tricia
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Hi Claire
Not sure if you have the following info, but here goes ...
1891 Census of Clifton, Beds
RG12/1257 F44 P13
"Shefford Rd"
Charles Copperwaite, head, m, 51, farm labourer
Jane Copperwaite, wife, m, 49, plaiter
Charles Copperwaite, son, 20, farm labourer
Martha Copperwaite, daur, 11, plaiter
Edith Copperwaite, daur, 10, scholar
George Copperwaite, father, widr, 78, living on own means
All recorded as born in Clifton, Beds.
So we have details of Charles's father!
1901 Census of Clifton, Beds
RG13/1498 F80 P22
"Lime Lane"
Charles Copperwaite, head, m, 61, road labourer, born Clifton Beds
Jane Copperwaite, wife, m, 59, born Clifton Beds
Cheers
Dave
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OOPS! Just realised you have Charles with his Dad in 1881 anyway.
By the way, Fossil Digger is a great occupation! :D
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Hi Dave and Tricia - yes, that's the right family.
Stupidly, I only went as far as the 1881 census - George is only listed as a boarder there, so obviously 10 years later he had put down roots, as he was listed as Father!
It's strange though, as I can't find even a mention of a near match for him for anything before this 1881 census, and no mention of a wife??
Any ideas?
Really appreciate all your help
Kind regards
Claire
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Oh yes, and Fossil Digger is a fantastic profession, and rather a rare occupation back then I would say!! Now I know where my love of Archeology comes from!!
Claire
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They are happy and well in 1871 - hang on - unless Dave is doing it as I speak ;)
1871 census
3 Taylor's Cottages Clifton
Charles Copperwait,Head age 31 Agric lab b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
Jane Copperwait,wife age 29 Straw Plaiting b.Henlow, Bedfordshire
Mary Copperwait,dau age 11 b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
Ann Copperwait,dau age 3 b.Clifton, Bedfordshire
Ellen Copperwait,dau age 6 born Clifton, Bedfordshire
George Copperwait,son age 12 months b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
Charles Copperwait,son age 2 monthsb. Clifton, Bedfordshire
RG10/1551 Biggleswade Folio 43 Page 8
Tricia
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Thanks Tricia - that's wonderful to know they were still there - why cant' I find Father George anywhere before 1881 - I was wondering if he had another name he used.
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May have to return to this tomorrow - internet keeps crashing and I am very tired ;)
Don't worry - if they are there we will find them(famous last words)
Tricia
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Thanks Tricia - there is no rush!! Time to pop off to bed for me too - this searching is like a time vortex - swallows you up and spits you out 5 hours later - very bleary eyed!!
Thanks for all your help
Kind regards
Claire
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Deleted - incorrect family
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Oh you star!!!! - obviously someone couldn't spell!!
I'll post again sometime tomorrow!
THANK YOU sooooooooooooo much
Claire
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Marriage reference for Charles
Charles Copperwaite
Marriage quarter ending December 1860
Biggleswade
Vol 3b
Page 815
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Umm! How strange - but if they can't spell, or even pronounce their own name, they could be called anything!!!
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The 1861 posting is incorrect.
There are several families with similiar names but have now worked it all out from 1851 forwards. I am going to delete that posting and re-post. There was a family called Copperwheat and I thought the Copperweat was yours but mis-spelt. Have now found correct families. Mary was not born a Copperwaite - she was Jane's, presumably illegitimate, daughter. Couldn't understand why I couldn't find Mary's birth.
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Sounds rather exciting!!
I'll report back tomorrow.
Kind regards
Claire
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I have addesd a litle bit to my previous answer which will explain this one
1861 census
Living Clifton - no address recorded
Chas Copperwaite Head, Rail Lab, born Clifton
Jane wife age 19, Straw Plaiter, born Clifton
Mary Wootton, Wife's daughter age 1 born Clifton
RG9/997 Biggleswade Folio: 48 Page: 23
I checked on the civil registration list and there is a marriage registered in the name of Jane Wootton matching the reference numbers I gave for the Charles Copperwaite marriage earlier in the thread.
I have also found his parents on 1861 and 1851 - will post tomorrow
Tricia
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1851 census
Living Clifton Bedfordshire
George Coppenwest,Head age 37 Rail Lab Clifton, Bedfordshire
Mary Coppenwest,Wife age 39 b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
Charles Coppenwest,son age 11 born Clifton, Bedfordshire
Ann dau age 3 born Clifton
HO107/1753 Biggleswade Folio 457 Page 23
Tricia
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1871 census
George Copperwest ,Head age 47 Rail Lab b.Clifton, Bedfordshire
Mary Copperwest,wife age 49 b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
Geo Copperweil,son age 16, Rail Lab b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
Ann Copperweil,dau age 13, Plaiter, b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
RG9/997 Biggleswade Folio 52 Page 31
Tricia
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You will notice on 1861 there is a son George who does not appear on 1851. Here he is
1851 census
Lakes, Clifton
John Sturton,Head age b. Norths, Artwell
Mary, wife age 62 b.Slonford Southill, Bedfordshire
Geoe Coppenweil,Granson age 7 b. Clifton, Bedfordshire
HO107/1753 Biggleswade Folio 459 Page 26
John's surname is difficult to read Stunson, Sturton Stunton ???
Tricia
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Good morning Tricia
How strange - in the 1861 census I think it looks like George and Mary are Copperwest, and if you go over the page, the children quite plainly seem to have their name written as Copperweit. I wonder if it is just bad writing for George and Mary, and a bad transcription by whoever typed it up when t first went on to ancestry.com!!
The only thing is that we thought George's wife was Jane - or is that wrong now ..... starting to get confused - where did Jane come from?????
Really appreciate all your help
Kind regards
Claire
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This was quite a tricky family to sort out so I am hoping this is correct. I have spent a fair amount of time on it - eliminating the other family that was floating around on 1861.
The only way to safely verify the information is to get hold of Charles' birth certificate which will give his mother's maiden name.
Sod's law again on the spelling.
Taken from civil registration
Charles Copperwate
Birth Quarter ending March 1840
Biggleswade
Vol vi
Page 67(61)?
The page number is my query, not theirs. It looks like a 7 but the writing isn't that clear and you never know.
Tricia
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A fossil digger would have been a coprolite digger, used as fertiliser. see http://www.cambridgeshirehistory.com/People/coproliteindustry.html
I have seen a number of these in the nearby village of Langford as well.
I think the place that Mary Sturton was born would be Stanford, a hamlet in Southill.
I'll see if I can find the Copperwheats (or however it was spelt!) in 1841
Regards
David
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Wasn't Jane married to Charles?
Have sent you a pm
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Oops - Tricia- think she was married to Charles - too many names spinning around my head!!!
Any help you gan give David would be GREATLY appreciated
From confused Claire - Sidmouth!!
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Here he is in 1841
HO107-003-06 folio 7A
Clifton, village
George Copperwaite 25 ag lab
Mary Copperwaite 25
Charles Copperwaite 1
All born in county
Regards
David
France
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Hi, are you the David I am helping ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Gosh David - that sounds interesting!! Would have to have a look at that - where did you find that reference?
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Just a brief summary for my own benefit!
Charles & Jane Copperwaite
Charles was born 1840 (or late 1839) in Clifton.
Birth registered in March qtr 1840
Parents: George and Mary Copperwaite
In 1841 he was with parents [edited after posting]
In 1851 he was with parents in Clifton.
He married Jane Wootton in Dec qtr 1860
Jane was born abt 1841 in Clifton.
In 1861, Charles and Jane were in Clifton with Jane's illegit daughter Mary, born 1859/60 in Clifton.
In 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901, Charles and Jane were in Clifton.
George & Mary Copperwaite
Parents of Charles
George was born about 1813 in Clifton.
He married Mary on an unknown date.
Mary was born abt 1811 in Clifton.
Her maiden name was probably Sturton - can be confirmed by Charles's birth cert.
(See 1851 Census for their son George, born about 1843.)
In 1841, George and Mary were in Clifton with son Charles [edited after posting]
In 1851, 1861 and 1871, George and Mary were in Clifton
Mary died before the 1881 Census.
In 1881 and 1891, George (widower) was living with son Charles and wife Jane.
Possible death reg: George Copperwaite, age 92 [sic], March qtr 1900 Biggleswade vol 3b page 275
John & Mary Sturton
Parents of George's wife, Mary (assumed)
John Sturton was born abt 1790
His wife Mary was born abt 1789
(ages from 1851 Census)
In 1851 they were in Clifton
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1851 Census of Clifton
RG10/1551 F54 P29
4 Stafford Cottages
George Copperwait, head, mar, 57, agr labourer
Mary Copperwait, wife, mar, 59, straw plaiting
William Copperwait, grandson, 5, scholar
All born Clifton Beds
Have updated above summary
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Ah, now we get the correct David ;)
Can you fit that William into the correct family in 1861 and have you seen the 1861 entry that is thrown up with a married Charles and George and a single William.
Claire - ignore this for the moment - it is confusing
There are also 2 deaths registered for a Mary Copperwaite - one in 1871 age 60 Biggleswade and another in 1877 age 60 Biggleswade ???
Claire - ignore this for the moment - it is confusing
Tricia
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Marriage per IGI
George Copperwaite & Mary Simson [sic]
28 Nov 1835 in Clifton
Children of George & Mary Copperwaite [IGI]:
Charles Copperwaite chr 4 Mar 1840 in Clifton
George Copperwait chr 28 Aug 1842 in Clifton - died in infancy?
George Copperwaite chr 22 Oct 1843 in Clifton
Mary Copperwaite chr 22 Oct 1843 in Clifton
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Hi Tricia - If you are referring to the family in Plumstead in 1861, I see what you mean. I think the records we've got so far are the right ones - everthing hangs together nicely. I wonder where William (c1845, Clifton) was in 1861?
There's a William Copperwait [trans. Coppenut] in Arlesey in 1861 and he's about the right age. (He's also a coprolite labourer!)
Dave
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He is there but I think we may confuse Claire by going down this line if we are confident the correct family has been sorted.
Tricia
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Okay ...................... so where did we end up, and who with???? Sorry!
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Oh Claire,
I am so sorry - it really doesn't help when 2 people start posting and repeating the same information.
I will pm you and try and sort it out.
It's quite simple really ::) ::) ::)
Tricia
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Thanks Tricia - got it all sorted out in my mind now!!
What records are likely to be available to me before the last date we have, and where do I go to find them?? Sorry - as I said before - new to all this!! ;D
Kindest regards
Claire
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Hi, Claire,
You have already got back to 1841 with your Copperwaite's so you are doing very well.
Prior to that you may have to rely on parish records which means going to Clifton or putting out another plea on here.
A lot of early stuff can be found on the site of the Latter day Saints but it isn't always reliable. It may be worth having a play around on it:-
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp
I have had a quick look on there but apart from the birth of Charles in 1840 I haven't found anything on the Copperwaite's any further back. You could always send for his birth cert (details further up this thread) and that would give you his mother's maiden name. Quite important as there were two Mary's around at the same time with similiar surnames.
You can order this online for £7 here
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificate/index.asp
Other people reading this thread may be able to advise you further (especially Bedfordshire Boy, I would have thought) :) even thought he lives in France
Good Luck, Tricia
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On 1 July 1837 a civil registration system for births, marriages and deaths was introduced in England and Wales. I have looked through this for you from July 1837 to 1842 but can't find the registration of a marriage of George Copperwaite in Bedfordshire or anywhere else which is a pity because the certificate would have given you his father's name and his wife's father's name.
It may be worth posting a request for his marriage on the Bedfordshire Board saying that his first born was probably in 1840 and his wife's first name is Mary.
Tricia
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Sorry for the delay. Glorious day in France so was forced to leave the computer and go and look at the Mediterrannean!
You are lucky researching in Beds in that the IGI on the family search link that Tricia provided has virtually all of the Beds parish registers pre 1812 included on it, and many parishes go up to the 1870s. But be very careful to diffentiate between member submissions and extracted records, which you'll find in the Messages section on the IGI Individual Record page. Extracted records are reliable, member submissions are not!
To avoid the member submitted dross try going in via the individual parish link on
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryEngland.htm#PageTitle
There's a marriage in Clifton between George Copperwaite and Mary Simson on 28 Nov 1835 which may be them - it's the only marriage showing in Beds with these names. I don't like the gap between 1835 and Charles born 1839/40 though. Unfortunately pre 1837 marriage entries in parish registers did not usually include fathers' names. All you get are the names of the witnesses and the parish of residence if not "of this parish".
So given my slight doubt here I would definitely get Charles' birth cert to confirm whether or not his mother's maiden name was Simson.
There's a George Copperwait christened at Clifton on 13 July 1817 aged 4, which is consistent with his age in 1841 (where ages over 15 were rounded down to the nearest 5 below, so 25 covered an actual age range of 25-29) and with the 1851 where he was 37 born Clifton.
I couldn't see a Mary Simson or Simpson but there was a Stimson family in Clifton at the right time, but I still can't see a Mary.
Clifton parish records are available on microfilm from your nearest Family History Centre of the LDS
That's probably more than enough to digest in one message! But as Tricia says, play around with the IGI on the LDS site.
Regards
David
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Thanks so much David & Tricia. Is anyone able to tell me, is microfilm easy to use? Also, do all Library's have a viewing facilty for it, as ours is rather small!
Kind regards
Claire
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Yes, microfilms are easy to use! Even I, a mere male, can manage them.
But I've only ever used them in the LDS, not in public libraries, so can't comment on library facilities. In LDS Family History Centres there's always someone on hand to help if you get stuck.
Good luck
David
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Hi Claire,
I can go back to1749 and maybe before with your copperwaites,
(and mine) Martha was my great grandmother,then its charles and jane,then George and mary,etc will give you more details when I have time.
Glen.
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Greeting from Australia. I have been searching the Copperwaites and I can help you with your Query of Charles and Jane. Father George mother Mary Stimpson/simpson. 12 children adopted one. I can forward all the information I have. Are you able to email me. MODERATOR COMMENT:email address removed to avoid spam. Please use personal message system to share email addresses. Thank You Can you tell me what line you are researching and connection. Love to correspond with you to fill in some gaps. Karen
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P.S from Karen
Sorry Claire forgot to mention the next line after George going back is Elizabeth Manning and William Copperwaite. All in Clifton.
As I said previous it would be great to correspond, as I do not have a great deal on Charles and Jane family.
Karen
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Karen - send your Email address in a pm. This one will be removed to prevent spamming.
Tricia :)
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Hi Karen - just sent you an email to the email address you send me!
Speak soon
Kind regards
Claire
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Who's a lucky girl. then Claire ;D ;D ;D
Tricia
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Hi Tricia Not sure what you mean? Karen
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Don't worry Karen - what Tricia means is that she is going to remove your messsage with your email address so that you don't get people you don't want to hear from contacting you!! A pm is a private message, which you can send by clicking on someone's name - you don't need to worry about that all now, as I have sent the email to your email address directly - speak to you from there.
Kind regards
Claire
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Claire
This family has been so well researched. I remember sending all the prison records to a lady in Australia...One COPPERWAIT escaped from the prison hulk at Woolwich and returned to Clifton where he was rearrested - he had lost an inch in height and went from a fresh complexion to sallow whilst awaiting transportation.
The trial records are at the National Archives in Kew - Bedford only has gaol records :'(
cathy
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Thanks so much Cathy - jolly gripping stuff!! Do you know if Kew are able to provide copies of these records, and if they have someone to do the leg work for you............ I have a 2 year old, and live in Devon, so I'm having to pay for researchers left right and center!!
Kind regards
Claire
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Postscript:
There is some information about the Clifton COPPERWAITs in the 1810s in a book called
'Samuel Whitbread's notebooks - see http://www.bedfordshirehrs.org.uk/
They were very poor people in those days and I think the ones who were sent to Australia were the lucky ones!
cathy
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Wonderful Cathy - will look out for that one!! It is so sad when you are looking through all this poverty and hardship - you can't help thinking of what they would think of you and your life!! It is true that we don't know we are born. I have just found my first relative who managed to pull themselves out of poverty, and became a Tea Dealer then a Magistrate. It is so wonderful to see someone had a life without such hardship!!
Kind regards
Claire
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Claire
If you look in UK National Archives - e mail them about Assizes Records ...but first get the prison records from Bedford
You will find some info on the COPPERWAITEs here: http://www.schools.bedfordshire.gov.uk/gaol/
But you need to e mail the archivist to get their gaol records [which gives you a physical description of the men] & she should be able to e mail the info back to you as it is all on computer now:
archive@bedscc.gov.uk
There is other stuff too like Poor Law Records but I guess you would like to get straight who was transported to Australia etc first?
The book I told you about costs £5 so is well worth it. I gave my copy away but remember reading about the Clifton COPPERWAITs and the poor souls did not have much of a life from what I recall...
cathy
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Claire
I have just read your earlier message - please don't pay for anything you can get for free ;D
As these people do not help very much often...
Beds Archives has a search site [which is being added to daily] and there is a lot of info that can be gleaned from there on your family.
http://blars.adlibsoft.com/beginner/indnms.html
cathy
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PS
My gt uncle, Henry, married an Ivy COPPERWAITE. They had no children and so my link to the family is cold...
If you look at the on-line phone book, [I think]there is only one COPPERWAITE listed in Bedfordshire but there are many in Australia - thanks to those guys being transported?
Let me know if you have any trouble accessing the info and I'll see if I can help this end?
I do wish I still had my Australian peoples contact details as they have done much research on the family - but that was a few years ago now.
You will have seen:
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire/CliftonRollofHonour.html
?
Which COPPERWAITE did you descend from? The 1891 census is on-line and complete for Bedfordshire...http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
All I can think of for now
cathy
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Hi Cathy,
Do you know where Ivy Copperwaite was born and in what year? Karen
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Yes,
Kempston I think [which is near Bedford] & she called herself 'COPPERWHEAT' but it is the same Bedfordshire family...the Kempston branch just chaged the spelling...that would be more to do with teachers in the 19th C telling you how to spell your name........
Reading & writing became compulsory in the 1860/70s so names were often changed then, I understand?
But I know nothing beyond that
cathy
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Hi Cathy - there was a Florence Ivy Copperwheat born in 1905 in Islington. I can have a proper look for more possibilities later - do you know a wrough year of birth for her? I will also get back to you on how I am related to the Copperwaite's. You are very right about their name - I have so far come across Copperwaite, Copperwait, Copperwheat, Copperway, Coppermerl, Copperwayte, .......... and others - doesn't make searching very easy does it!! I think that the people taking the census just spelt the names how they wanted!!
Kind regards
Claire
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I do not think it is the same woman
My Aunty Ivy wore tiny shoes [which crippled her feet - vanity] and looked like a little doll all painted up..........O, I have made a mistake : it was her sister who married a COPPERWHEAT. Ivy was a TYSOE and it was her her sister who married the COPPERWHEAT bloke!
They lived at Green End, Kempston - and I used to drive out and take their library books to them in the 1970s. They used to give me tea & buscuits when I arrived with their books - she liked historical fiction & he liked war novels.
So this is a TYSOE/COPPERWHEAT marriage?
Do you have a record of that?
cathy
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Hi Claire,do you have a fax number?,if so I can send you some of the prison records/transportation records etc. Ps the copperwaite listed in the phone book is my dad,he lives in Haynes.
Glen
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Hi Cathy - what was your Aunt's first name (not Ivy - the Copperwheat who married the Tysoe?)
Hi Glen - my husband has a fax number - and that would be most kind of you to fax the prison records to us. I shall get back to you later with the details.
Thanks both!
Kind regards
Claire
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hi everyone , just thought i would add that ellen copperwaite was my great great grandmother .I only live in shefford so the family still lives on in the area. My uncle has done a very good family tree i will try to view it and share some info
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Hi, from Australia. Can you please give me a date and more particulars for Ellen Copperwaite. I have been researching the Copperwaite line Clifton for a long while now. It would be great to exchange information. Karen
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Hi , the name i have on my piece of paper is Ellen copperwaite, it also says her father was a john copperwaite from eaton bray. My family tree was done by my uncle who i do not see very often (normally at christmas time) i will make a point next time i see him to find out more info .He is a clever man and i dare say has done a alot of research i also would like to find more info. If you visit the churchyard in clifton there are many headstones with the copperwaite name there must have been loads of them living around here ! best of luck with your research
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Hi, I may be able to help you with Ellen from Eton Bray. Although I do not have a direct line to Eaton Bray I do have info on them. What date am I looking for? Original name was Copperwheat. The Copperwaite in the church cemetery are the Copperwaites from Clifton.
Many thanks. Karen
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Hi , well Ellen copperwaite was my great great grandmother on my grandads side of the family . My grandad (George William Stains) was born in 1914. So i would think i am looking at the 1850's period for ellen copperwaite .Please bare with me i will try to find better info when i next see my uncle. Please ask if i can assist you in any way
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Many thanks for the offer. If your Uncle knows any info of the Copperwaites Clifton I would be very grateful. Karen
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Hi, I have recently discovered that Charles and Jane Copperwaite are my great, great grandparents. Their daughters Eliza and Martha moved to Luton and were living with my great grandfather Harry Lacey in 1901. The census of that year doesn't show Eliza as being in the house (10 York St) but I know that she had married Harry in Biggleswade in 1893 and when the census was taken in 1901 she would have been pregnant with my grandmother Violet Lillian Lacey who was born in October 1901. I have a photo of Eliza and various "death cards" which I'll try and post soon if anyone's interested. Chris
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I am very interested in anything on the Copperwaite families from Clifton Bedfordshire. Karen
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Hi, I have recently discovered that Charles and Jane Copperwaite are my great, great grandparents.
Charles C [aged 51] and wife Jane [aged 49 - were living in Shefford Road in Clifton at 1891 Census ...with children: Charles [20]; Martha [11] & Edith [10]....Charles OPPERWAITEs father, widowed, George COPPERWAITE [78] is listed at same address 'living on Priate Means'
Eliza was a 15 year old servant in anothe household [DEVERILL] also in Clifton.
See: http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
And: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyBedford.htm#PageTitle
I cant see a marriage for them in Clifton but they may have married elsewhere:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
cathy
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Claire
I sent a message - but I think the 8 week old infant is George COPPERWHEAT [your Charles COPPERWHEATs father]?
George's parents were William [b c 1780] & Elizabeth [b c 1755]
siblings:
Mary [b c 1799]
William [b c 1803]
John [b c 1807]
Charles [b c 1809]
Some of the prison sentences are here...there was another brother called Richard [? b c 1805] who was eventually transported. And their father William spent time in Bedford Gaol
Have a look here:
http://apps.bedfordshire.gov.uk/grd/
cathy
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Hi , the name i have on my piece of paper is Ellen copperwaite, it also says her father was a john copperwaite from eaton bray. My family tree was done by my uncle who i do not see very often (normally at christmas time) i will make a point next time i see him to find out more info .He is a clever man and i dare say has done a alot of research i also would like to find more info. If you visit the churchyard in clifton there are many headstones with the copperwaite name there must have been loads of them living around here ! best of luck with your research
If you're still wanting information regarding Ellen I might be able to help. John Copperwaite from Eaton Bray is my great grandfather I believe. His son Harry is my grandfather and Nellie was my grandmother. Harry's only daughter, June Maude who grew up in Eaton Bray, is my mother. June may have some information regarding Ellen and we still have close relatives and friends in Eaton Bray which I may be able to inquire with.