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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: proteantime on Tuesday 17 January 06 13:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have a little mystery surrounding who the wife of our great great uncle, George E Oppenheim was. This is the only information that I have and I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the mystery of the differing surnames between daughter and father:
Isabel Haddon, younger daughter of Sir William Sinclair, of Manchester.
Kind regards and many thanks in advance
Kirsten
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Hi Kirsten,
This is just a thought-- could Haddon be a surname used as a first name? This would mean her full name was Isabel Haddon Sinclair. Many people have come across similar things in their family tree, the name coming perhaps from their mother's maiden name or someone else that they wish to remember.
Hope this helps
Best Wishes
Jane
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The 1891 census would support that theory, Jane -
See 1891 RG12/3188 Folio 79 Page 5 - 250 Oxford Street, Chorlton on Medlock, Lancs
Let me know if you need full transcription Kirsten
Regards
Catherine :)
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:P
So obvious I missed it! How brilliant to have you all to brainstorm with when I'm finding it something obscured.
I'd love that transcript. Fascinating that it seems from the address that they were just down the road from where Ernest's father and the rest of the family lived (497 Oxford street/road).
Many thanks
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Household in 1891 as follows -
William Japp? Sinclair 45 Doctor of Medicine Physician Surg Scotland
Margaret 36 Scotland
Margaret 5 Lancs Manchester
Isabella Haddon 4 Lancs Manchester
Emily Parry 26 Domestic Servant Cook Staffordshire Tamworth
Catherine Machin 16 Domestic Servant Nurse Staffordshire Hanley
Regards
Catherine :)
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:D
Absolutely brilliant thank you!
That's the second son to marry the daughter of a surgeon in this generation and makes finding information about them so much easier. For those interested I've been able to establish the following:
Alexander Sinclair b (about 1819) Aberdeen, Scotland
married Margaret McLae b:27/12/1819 in Lanark, Scotland.
children:
Donald Sinclair b:5/11/1843, Laurencekirk, Kincardine, Scotland,
(m: 27/12/1872 at Lower Craighill, St. Cyrus Kincardine to
Elizabeth McHardy b:05/07/1843 on December 27, 1872 )
William Japp Sinclair b:26/03/1846, Laurencekirk, Kincardine
Anne Sinclair b:07/10/1849, Laurencekirk, Kincardine
Alexander Fraser Sinclair b:23/10/1853, Laurencekirk, Kincardine
Thanks again for your help. If anyone can find them for any other years before and after 1891, I'd love to see how long they were in the area and indeed if they had further children after Isabel/Isabella.
Kirsten
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Still there in 1901, though at first glance no Isabel: maybe at school, I thought, but see below
William J Sinclair head 55 physician surgeon Scotland
Margaret ditto wife 46 ditto
Margaret ditto daur s 16 student Manchester Lanc
Mabel H. ditto s 14 ditto ditto
a mistranscription for Isabel, I'm sure
*Agnes G. Haddon sis in law s 52 Scotland*
Charles A Vince visitor 45 political agent Handsworth Staffordshire
Margaret Owen servant s 2o waitress domestic Widnes Lanc
Alice Sawyer ditto s 38 cook Cambridgeshire
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:)
Thanks Jane - the school idea is a good one. If the boys all attended Rugby I wonder if anyone knows if the girls attended a similar institution in Lancashire for girls?
Kirsten
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Hi Kirsten,
I should have made it clearer, sorry. I gave up the school idea -- girls of their class probably had a governess and were taught at home, though we don't see one on the census. Perhaps it was her day off, or they were in the process of finding a new one.
I meant to say your Isabel Haddon is there in 1901, but she has been written down as Mabel H. (for Haddon.)
The name was probably misheard by the enumerator. the age is right, 14, and the H. initial would seem to agree with this theory.
Did you see the Agnes Haddon, who is visiting the family?
Hope this makes things clearer for you
Jane
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;) Hi Jane,
Thanks for your input on this puzzle for me, it helps to make things so much clearer as I'm still really a novice on the systems and social heirarchies that existed in England at the time.
Interesting for me in that 1901 census (apart from the enumerator's error! lol) is the fact that the visitors are as interesting as the occupants.
"Charles A Vince visitor 45 political agent Handsworth Staffordshire"
from www.janus.lib.cam.ac.uk
Charles Vince, Secretary of the Birmingham, Aston, and Handsworth Liberal Unionist Association
from www.docsouth.unc.edu
Struggles for Freedom; or The Life of James Watkins, Formerly a Slave in Maryland, U. S
The following is a list of the names of a few of the ministers of different denominations who have so warmly seconded my efforts in the cause of freedom:--
Baptists:--Revs. Mr. Tucker, Manchester; H. Stowell Brown, Liverpool; Charles Vince, Isaac New, Mr. Swan, J. Taylor, J. Landells, Birmingham, and D. M. Evans
So it seems that Mr Vince was an interesting liberal petitioner for the rights of the worker at the time. Fascinating!
"Agnes G. Haddon sis in law s 52 Scotland"
this is a curiosity and if my thinking is straight on this she would have the name haddon from her husband who cannot be the brother of Isabel because then she would surely be Agnes Sinclair.
This suggests to me that she is of the age (52) to be the wife of her mother's brother and that indeed her mother's maiden name was Haddon.
I've tried to track down the marriage of Margaret to William but to no avail.
I'm intensely curious now about our Isabel's history as it seems her family were not only pioneering in the field of obstetrics and gynaecology but also had political leanings. Curiously enough, her husband (our George E Oppenheim) although from Jewish ancestry became a Grand Mason. The times were definitely 'a changin'.
:-) Kirsten
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Hi Kirsten,
This is really interesting, all the Charles Vince information you have found. I love the social history side of family history.
On the subject of Agnes Hadden, if you look, the enumerator has added a s in the marital status column. This should mean s for single. ie Agnes was never married. Otherwise they would have written widow.
So that would make her the elder sister of Margaret Sinclair, nee Haddon.
What do you think?
Forgive me if I have got it wrong, but may I ask if English is a second language for you?
If so perhaps I can clarify that the term sister in law means the sister of one's wife or husband, therefore Agnes Haddon is the sister of William Sinclair's wife, Margaret.[
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Hi again,
Here is William in 1881
RG11/3940/4/1
125 Moss Lane East, Moss Side
William J. Sinclair head 35 unmarried surgeon physician, Scotland
John A McKenzie visitor 26 unmarried assistant physician Scotland
Fanny Jackson housekeeper39 unmarried housekeeper Mile End Middlesex
Elizabeth Cutting servant 11 unmarried general servant Manchester.
Maybe William and Margaret married in Scotland, but unfortunately I do not have access to Scottish Records. Maybe such a marriage would have been reported in the newspapers?
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The marriage in Scotland should be easy to find on "Scotland's People" and will provide more info than in England with the added bonus of no waiting for a certificate!
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You could ask for a lookup on the Scotland General board
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"This suggests to me that she is of the age (52) to be the wife of her mother's brother and that indeed her mother's maiden name was Haddon."
lol ;D
oh dear (sigh), this is what happens when I try and respond to things late at night! (I'm an hour ahead of UK time) Sorry. What I was trying to work out was whether the visitor was Margaret Sinclair's (nee Haddon) sister in law, ie. married to Margaret's brother.
This is particularly funny and embarrassing all at once because English is my first language, the subject I read at University and the profession I engaged in for 15 years (broadcaster). So while I'm cringing at my ineptitude under the influence of neuro-toxins, I'm also delighted that I'm still fallible and need to work on my clarity. lol
I missed seeing an 's' for single in the column which also explains why I was heading down the 'Haddon by marriage' trail. hehe
Ok, so if I'm clear now (god everything is crossed now!), the visitor should be the unmarried sister of Margaret Sinclair (nee Haddon). Love ya Jane, thanks for your patience.
exhale..........
Thanks again Jane and Northern-rose for the suggestions about finding the Scottish marriage. I'm no expert at Scottish genealogy and when I did the obligatory 'googling' found that I could not search without paying a fee and so put the idea in a shoebox (so to speak) to tackle when a bit less overwhelmed.
The suggestion to try the Scotland General board is ideal and I will do that next.
I'm not going to tie this lovely topic off with a 'completed' ribbon quite yet. I'll see what I can find out on the Scotland list and come back here and let you know what I find.
Heartfelt gratitude and thanks for your time and patience.
Kirsten
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Hi Kirston
While I was looking for some relatives I came across your conversation back in 2006. I don't know if you're still interested in the topic but I have some information about Sir Wiliam Japp Sinclair and his family which you may have by now. I have been looking for descendants of Margaret and her sister Isabel, William and Margaret's daughters. Perhaps you know something of Isabel's if she and her husband had children. Isabel was my grandfather's first cousin.
No more for now in case I haven't done what is necessary - my first time.
Best wishes
Margaret
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Dear Margaret,
I'm afraid I was stuck at a wall with this one. But will spend some time on it this evening and report back as it has been a couple of years since I last was in the zone with this line (one of just 24 I am currently researching).
Thanks for getting in touch as I am sure that between us and with the expertise and incredible intellectual resources of our rootschat family, we can solve this puzzle, once and for all.
Kindest regards,
Kirsten
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Good to hear from you, Kirsten.
After I'd written I realised I had the report of the death of "Bell", daughter of Sir W J Sinclair. At her death her name was Osborne so I'm wondering if she was married twice or if maybe you have the wrong person. She died in Manchester in 1947. Perhaps this is why you hit a wall?
I look forward to hearing from you again.
Margaret
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Dear Margaret,
I'd love to see that! That would be Isabelle as George changed his name from Oppenheim to Osborne shortly before WWI and not long after they were married. His brother likewise did the same becoming Frederick Bury Osborne (the Bury being his wife's maiden name). Both brothers married the daughters of doctors, Frederick's wife being the daughter of Judson Bury and william Japp Sinclair being as follows:
Biographical History
Sir William Japp Sinclair was a pioneer of modern gynaecological surgery. He was born in Kincardineshire on 6 March 1846 and studied medicine at Aberdeen. Sinclair was resident medical officer at St Mary's Hospital, Manchester and house surgeon to the Clinical Hospital for Women and Children. In 1875 he was elected honorary physician to the Manchester Southern Hospital, for many years he was the only consultant, and he retained his post when the hospital amalgamated with St Mary's in 1905. In 1888, Sinclair became professor of obstetrics and gynaecology at the University of Manchester. He wrote important works on gonorrhea and was a pioneer in vaginal hysterectomy. He was an important player in the controversy over the Midwives Bill, arguing for state registered training, and was an original member of the Central Midwives Board. Sinclair was the first general secretary of the North of England Obstetrical and Gynaecological Society, and was president in 1893 and 1904. He played a major role in the beginning of the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology of the British Empire , in the early 1900s. He was also one of the founders of the Medical Chronicle in 1884, and was an editor for the journal for many years. Sinclair was president of MMS in 1899 and was knighted in 1904. Sinclair died on 21 August 1912.
He was also pretty much the only advocate for the work of Semmelweiss and was knighted on December 19 1904 when he was Professor of Obstetrics and Gyneacology at Victoria University Manchester. I do not have the Times digital archive transcription of this as my subscription has expired - sorry. Likewise, I would also love to see the death notice for him in The Times August 23, 1912.
1901
William J Sinclair head 55 physician surgeon Scotland
Margaret ditto wife 46 ditto
Margaret ditto daur s 16 student Manchester Lanc
Mabel H. ditto s 14 ditto ditto
*Agnes G. Haddon sis in law s 52 Scotland*
Here are the births of the daughters:
Births Sep 1886
Sinclair Isabella Haddon Chorlton 8c 792
Births Dec 1884
Sinclair Margaret Chorlton 8c 837
Here is the marriage of George and Isabelle:
Marriages Jun 1911
Oppenheim George E Chorlton 8c 1599
Sinclair Isabel H Chorlton 8c 1599
I have not been able to establish definitively who Agnes Haddon's parents are but I think here she is in 1881 (with her brother the doctor! and William's wife Margaret):
John HADDON Head U Male 36 Scotland Gen Practitioner
Agnes HADDON Sister U Female 32 Scotland
Margaret HADDON Sister U Female 26 Scotland
Andrew HADDON Brother U Male 17 Scotland Scholar
Dwelling 42 Wellington Rd Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire, England
RG11/Folio 3881 / 53/ Page 45
It is possible that this is Agnes:
AGNES GOODFELLOW HADDON
Birth: 18 MAR 1849 Cavers, Roxburgh, Scotland
Father: ANDREW HADDON
Mother: ANN WHITE
This could be her brother John:
Dr John Haddon MA, Md (1845 - 1924)
Dr John Haddon was educated at the University of Edinburgh, and graduated in arts as well as medicine. The doctor was awarded the Thesis Gold Medal in 1869. As a young man he set up in practise in a residential suburb of Manchester, where his business prospered. During this time (around 1880) he published a paper on Public Health for the Manchester and Salford Sanitary Association. The paper intended to educate the masses with regard to sanitary laws and the avoidance of diseases. At the age of 37 after a bout of illness John embarked on a round the world trip that would see him travel across the Atlantic through America and Canada and across the Pacific.
This is all I have been able to discover at this stage but leads in various directions for lookups on census returns - none unfortunately I am able to do from this location at the moment but would love any help with.
William's family could be as follows:
Father:
Alexander Sinclair b abt 1819 Aberdeen, Scotland
Mother:
Margaret McLae b abt 1819 Lanark, Scotland.
Children:
Donald Sinclair b Novem 5, 1843 Laurencekirk, Kincardine, Scotland
William Japp Sinclair b March 26, 1846 Laurencekirk, Kincardine
Anne Sinclair b October 7, 1849 Laurencekirk, Kincardine
Let me know what your thoughts are here. I will keep trying to track down Margaret the sister of Isabella.
warm regards,
Kirsten
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Hello again, Kirsten. I have just typed a long reply only to find it's disappeared so here I go again, hopefully with better luck. This is Isabelle's death notice:
Osborne - on June 8th at Honeyburn, Spath Road, Didsbury, Bell Sinclair, widow of George E. Osborne and daughter of late Sir William Sinclair of Manchester. Service at Manchester crematorium on Wednesday June 11 at 10.30 am. In quiries to Kendal Milne & Co.
I have her mother's notice as well if you'd like it.
I have a lot of information about Sir William, some from the internet and some from Manchester.
His other family members were
Jane (my ggrandmother) b. 1839 (no official date yet); Angus b.1841 (no official date), Alexander b.Sept 30,1853.
As you are researching the Osborne side you may not want any more information on the Sinclairs but I have some more. Angus was well known in the US and can be found on line. Donald also went to the US.
It's lovely to be in touch and thanks for your prompt, informative replies. Best wishes.
Margaret
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Isn't it fascinating how a house name acts as such an amazing link! Honeyburn was the farm where Margaret Haddon grew up. She married William Sinclair there having met him through her brother, John, who also practised in Manchester.
And yes, you deduced correctly that Agnes was one of her sisters - she had six, and two more brothers who were solicitors in Hawick, Roxburghshire. Her two daughters came to Scotland regularly to visit the family and I remember Maggie Marriot when I was small. Unfortunately I cannot lay my hands on any photographs of them.
My cousin remembers visiting her Auntie Belle in the 1930s in very grand house in Manchester. And through her I finally solved the marriage of Osbourn aka Oppenheim: were they of Jewish origin or just German?
Enid
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Dear Margaret, Enid and Kirsten,
I'm doing some family research now in 2022 and may have some interesting additional information about William. I'd be very interested in a photo of him if there are any. Are any of you still active on this forum? I'd love to hear from you.
Kind regards,
Anne
[...]
I have a lot of information about Sir William, some from the internet and some from Manchester.
His other family members were
Jane (my ggrandmother) b. 1839 (no official date yet); Angus b.1841 (no official date), Alexander b.Sept 30,1853.
As you are researching the Osborne side you may not want any more information on the Sinclairs but I have some more. Angus was well known in the US and can be found on line. Donald also went to the US.
It's lovely to be in touch and thanks for your prompt, informative replies. Best wishes.
Margaret
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I find all this fascinating! Margaret Haddon, who married W J Sinclair, was not in a happy marriage. I came across a letter to her brother John, complaining about her husband's drinking habits but saying she'd stay in the marriage for their daughters' sake, No, there were no grandchildren, and Auntie Bell was a lovely person but my vague memory of her was a formal lady. She and her sister, Maggie, used to come up to the Borders each summer and her cousin, my father, a solicitor, used to talk to them with myself firmly in another room left with 'Pilgrim's Progress' as suitable reading material!! Later Maggie left their holiday home to my aunt. Yes, Agnes Goodfellow Haddon was Margaret's older sister. And yes, WJ married my gt aunt in Scotland in 1883. And yes, Honeyburn is the family farm - still in the family, and theirs is not the only family that called their English homes that, so I conclude it must have been a happy place (still is). WJ had 5 siblings which I'm sure you've also discovered, 3 born in Forfar as he was, and two in Laurencekirk. His parents came from Inverness-shire. Jane married G C Burnett, Angus remained a bachelor (I think), Donald married Elizabeth McHardy and died in USA, Ann died as a 10 year old in Laurencekirk, Alexander married Jane Hunter and died in Troon, Ayrshire. I'm sure by now you've probably got all this but I have a little more if you haven't
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Having just done Ancestry DNA and a bit of digging into certificates on Scotland’s People, I strongly believe that my great grandfather, William Bell, is the illegitimate son of William Japp Sinclair and an Aberdeen doctor’s daughter called Alice Jane Forsyth. He was born “William George Forsyth” in 1873 at the home address of William’s brother Donald Sinclair in Glasgow. So, if anyone has ANY further information about William Japp Sinclair and his family I would very interested. Alice appears never to have married. She seems to have tried to keep the baby initially, as she reregistered the birth at another address a month later.
I had heard a story once from an older relative that my great grandfather was adopted, but he had only discovered that when a birth parent had left him an inheritance sometime between 1900 and 1920. There was a “Lady Mary/Margaret” involved in that offer. According to the story, he rejected the “guilt money”. I thought it was just confused ramblings at time. It was only when I found his death certificate that I realised there was some truth behind what they were trying to tell me. His death certificate lists him as “William George Forsyth, also known as William Bell, parents unknown”.
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Belle, Margaret, Anne
All sounds perfectly possible as WJS 's wife Margaret was not in a happy marriage. Somewhere I have such a sad letter to her brother complaining of her treatment when WJS had drunk too much (often), saying she was staying in the marriage for the sake of their two daughters. Although both their daughters married neither of them had children, so no DNA trail there.
WJS was born in Forfar, Angus, 3rd son (4th child of 6) of Andrew Sinclair and Margaret McLeay both of Inverness-shire. His medical degree was from Aberdeen in the 1870s and he took up practice in Manchester thereafter.
Somewhere I do have a photo which may well be of WJS with my grandfather/great-uncle (brothers of Margaret) - not very tall, up to the shoulder of my relation who was about 6 foot tall. Needless to say, no-one has written on the back identifying the pair - the problem with many of my family photos.
When did the money transfer to William? Margaret died 1935 in Didsbury so was it a mention in her will? I also am interested in the 'Belle' name as one of William's half-sisters was known in the family as Auntie Belle which could mean that there was contact between them. WJS died in 1913 in Manchester.
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I was told William Bell took none of the money offered when he found out he was adopted. It was sometime after 1910 and before 1920, but I don’t know when.
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There seems to be a photo of William Japp Sinclair online (if that helps with IDing your photos).
https://digital.library.mcgill.ca/oslerprints/search-results.php?s=Sinclair,%20William%20Japp,%20Sir,%201846-1912%20--%20Portraits.
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I also read there is a university class photo in a volume of “Records of Art Classes of Aberdeen University” relating to the class of 1865-69. It was described as a volume that had been compiled and edited by Rev. James B. Duncan & Mr. William Smith. I don’t know which year.