RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: sandra bills on Wednesday 11 January 06 18:27 GMT (UK)
-
Would someone please do look up for George North
born 1775 and died 1850 aged 75. He would have
been alive for the 1841 census. He lived in Almondbury and
Huddersfield.
Trying to trace movements of family.
Thanks
Sandra
ps. His wife Sarah died 1848 so she would have been
on there as well.
-
Hi Sandra
Do you know what year Sarah was born?
Best wishes
Ticker
-
Hi #Ticker,
After having exhausted all the birth certicates it seems
that I have drawn a blank as to deaths of George and
Sarah North.
Sarah Lockwood born 1802 married George North
March 1822 All Hallows Almondbury. George born 1798.
All children born Colne Bridge, baptised Kirkheaton.
George and Sarah on 1841 census but no trace after
All their children after 1851 looked after by brother.
George on his sons marriage certificate in 1847. So alive then.
Hope this helps.
Sandra.
-
Theres a George and Sarah North buried in St Martin's graveyard Brighouse
-
Hi Sandra
Silly question. Are you trying to bring your FT forward or trace George North ancestors?
As I think you are aware Benjamin is looking after his siblings according to the 1851 census.
I can look other censuses for you.
Do you live close to St Martins in Brighouse? If it is any help to you I live only about 5 miles away in Huddersfield. I would only be to happy and visit and take a photo of the headstone if there is one and if you should so wish.
-
Hi Yorky,
Just picked up your post and thanks your offer of photo.
However I have someone who has now taken photos of the grave and I have now progressed much further down the family tree.]
thanks again,
Sandra
-
Hi Sandra
Silly question. Are you trying to bring your FT forward or trace George North ancestors?
As I think you are aware Benjamin is looking after his siblings according to the 1851 census.
I can look other censuses for you.
Do you live close to St Martins in Brighouse? If it is any help to you I live only about 5 miles away in Huddersfield. I would only be to happy and visit and take a photo of the headstone if there is one and if you should so wish.
If there is one?
-
1841 Census: HO107/1275/16 folio 16, page 24
Bradley Lane, Huddersfield
George North 42 cotton spinner
Sarah 40
Mary 15 cotton spinner
Benjamin 14 ditto
Annie 12 ditto
Wright 10 ditton
Emma 7 ditto
Sarah 3
All born in county.
BumbleB
-
Now I'm confused ;D Is it George 1775 or George 1795?
There is another George North on 1841 Census
HO107/1278/1 Folio 20 page 32
Dalton, Huddersfield
George North 65 Shopkeeper
Ellen 60
Emma Tyas 14 female servant
All born in county.
BumbleB
-
Hi Sue,
Yes! you was the source of the nile or Brighouse info above-as you were with all my family history in Temple Balsall Warwick and for Sandra in her family History North & Cockroft.
Janet at YAS Claremont Leeds Has taken Sandra back to 1379 and Richard Horton head of Kirkheaton church ancestry research team & you
We are still are looking for Sarah Appleyard for you.
Dave
-
Hi Dave: And I'm still looking for the possible first Tidmarsh marriage!! Touche
Sue
-
Hi Sue
There were two George's and proved George of Bradley lane Colne Bridge as George in Brighouse Graveyard also George was related to Sarah North died in the famous 1818 Colnebridge cotton mill fire -died aged 18 in the tower memorial at Kirkheaton church! It was after this fire Robert Peel started the factory safety act!
Dave
-
Hi Dave: And I'm still looking for the possible first Tidmarsh marriage!! Touche
Sue
Tar!
-
Ps
While we are thanking folk
Ian at Halifax WYAS has Helped us all in Yorkshire ancestry at one time or another direct or indirect.
Big thank you! :D too him
also Lenny Beaumont! maybe the two best
-
I'll second the thanks to Ian, unfortunately I don't know Lenny.
Sue
-
Hi Sue,
Lenny helps everybody online unfortunatly not a member of Rootchat -big mate of Steve Whitwam
SStar 2008 Kirkheaton -Libby9 Leeds 8) - Maidmarionopps Perth in Australian and Charlotte W.
all 4 have Helped Sandra! and too many members to count on Rootschat like yourself. :D
-
Greetings from USA. This query is directed particularly to "dobfarm." Dear Sir: I noted with interest your info on the XVI.- and XVII.- century wills, etc., regarding the Norths of Coldroyd/Colroyd/Cowroyd/Couleroyd/Couldroyd and their kin. How can I obtain photocopies or pdfs of the originals? I apologize for going slightly off the topic here; but the referenced thread has been locked, and I am new to RootsChat and could figure no other means by which to contact you in this regard.
My descent from the Norths of Coldroyd: My great-great-great-great-grandfather John Broadbent (1795-1856) of Coldroyd, Dalton settled in USA. His mother was Ruth North (1774-1838), wife of James Broadbent, of Coldroyd. Her father was John North (1697/98-1783; wife unknown but might have been either Elizabeth Tweedale or Elizabeth Matchan). John was the son of Benjamin North (ca. 1671-1756; m. Ruth Pollard, 1697). Benjamin was the son of John North of Coldroyd in Dalton (1625/26-1695/96). This John of Coldroyd was in turn the son of another John North who was likely baptized in 1606, a son of another John North. Most of this info appears on monuments in the Broadbent-North plot in the Kirkheaton parish churchyard.
I suspect that the last-named John North was the John "of Couldroyd," son of George North, mentioned in the will of his uncle John North of Rowley. What think you?
Our family occupied the farm at Coldroyd until the first quarter of XX. century. How might I learn the form of their tenure?
Many thanks just for listening! I hope you can shed some light on these questions.
-
Hi tadorsett
Greetings also from Rootschat website.
First basics.
We advice not to use your own name or basic address on ancestry forum boards as chance Identity theft with the use on ancestry mother maiden name used by banks log on! and recommend delete or remove your name from the post by modify tab also never put your email address on boards. Use Taddy or similar like I use Dobby ;D to sign
You need to post 2 more post replies to be able to use the personnel message system. do it on the Decipher board -answer 2 of any threads in the link
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,425.0.html
then come back on this thread.
Dobby :)
-
@Dobby:
Thanks for the tips. I do tend to be cavalier about identity theft. I have performed genealogical research intensely for forty years, but am a dope when it comes to the wiles of cyberspace. Anyway...
I have answered two deciphering posts, and am ready for initiation into Personal Messages, I think. :)
Thanks for your guidance.
Taddy.
-
Hi Taddy
The Wills can be found at the Borthwick Insitute York University -Refer as University of York!
Will/probate by Index pre 1858 to find online
Copies of Book entry £5 or about 8 bucks and a full copy of the Bungle of documents of Will/Probate £10 or 16 Bucks but could cost more for USA postage.
Index of Wills is online by credits. See their website
http://www.york.ac.uk/library/borthwick/
See 'News' on the page middle right for index online
They Will look after your needs
-
Thanks very much for the Borthwick info. Is that also where I would find the 1565 Boyfe Hall Farm lease (to George North) you referred to?
If you ever need any info regarding the Antietam country of Pennsylvania and Maryland, please feel free to ask. I think we have the same "job," just different continents.
-
Thanks very much for the Borthwick info. Is that also where I would find the 1565 Boyfe Hall Farm lease (to George North) you referred to?
If you ever need any info regarding the Antietam country of Pennsylvania and Maryland, please feel free to ask. I think we have the same "job," just different continents.
KM:291 Title Westheton
http://www.archives.wyjs.org.uk/wyjs-archives-calderdale.asp
Funny enough alot think! that I'm some expert but is a million miles away.
Doing look ups for people in repositories and graveyards & on the net! I picked up things more by blunder & chance! that I know more than PhD experts being where to find info of into the unknown. The experts go by known knowledge and set rules. Laymans rules at this game -there is none! thats the secret! No rules. Commonsense is the rule of thumb in the UK -be there one.
Dobby
-
Thanks again!
And, yes, what beats the School of Experience?
-
Thanks again!
And, yes, what beats the School of Experience?
Yes! Thats it! if it sounds stupid or impossible-go for it! like a bull at a gate! pure Experience of thumps and bumps ;D and find whats on the other side of the gate! ;)
-
I have never been to Yorkshire (or England, for that matter), but I feel as if I have roamed around there for ever. The cousins from Leeds and Huddersfield as well as such researchers as yourself have been so kind and helpful, that my English research has been almost effortless compared to my local work. Also, the maps, photos, and literature online have taken me virtually right to the scene of my immigrant ancestor John Broadbent's youth.
John Broadbent wrote a number of fascinating letters to his family and friends at home, which were collected and preserved after his death. The cousin who owns them has given me the rights to publish them as an addendum to the Broadbent genealogy I am preparing.
In these letters, JB mentions his "Uncle George" and wonders whether he still be living (1840s and 1850s). He had an uncle George Broadbent, but I have wondered whether he also had an uncle George North. That is one thing I had hoped to clarify prior to publication. I have sent messages to Mrs. Bill and one other gentleman in that regard.
And after spending several days poring over the microfilms of the Kirkheaton Parish Records several years ago, I find I wish I had paid closer attention in Latin class!
Please keep up the good work.
-
Hi Taddy,
With the usage of computer translations of latin, a brief study old English lettering in capitals and lower case will soon show parish registers were not in latin in a lot of cases but old engish spelling.
This Boysefall Will 1565 is in old English but was thought Latin.
Genuki website is good for repository location of Doc's
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/CBW/WRY/Kirkheaton.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/WRY/Kirkheaton/index.html
-
Greetings from USA. This query is directed particularly to "dobfarm." Dear Sir: I noted with interest your info on the XVI.- and XVII.- century wills, etc., regarding the Norths of Coldroyd/Colroyd/Cowroyd/Couleroyd/Couldroyd and their kin. How can I obtain photocopies or pdfs of the originals? I apologize for going slightly off the topic here; but the referenced thread has been locked, and I am new to RootsChat and could figure no other means by which to contact you in this regard.
My descent from the Norths of Coldroyd: My great-great-great-great-grandfather John Broadbent (1795-1856) of Coldroyd, Dalton settled in USA. His mother was Ruth North (1774-1838), wife of James Broadbent, of Coldroyd. Her father was John North (1697/98-1783; wife unknown but might have been either Elizabeth Tweedale or Elizabeth Matchan). John was the son of Benjamin North (ca. 1671-1756; m. Ruth Pollard, 1697). Benjamin was the son of John North of Coldroyd in Dalton (1625/26-1695/96). This John of Coldroyd was in turn the son of another John North who was likely baptized in 1606, a son of another John North. Most of this info appears on monuments in the Broadbent-North plot in the Kirkheaton parish churchyard.
I suspect that the last-named John North was the John "of Couldroyd," son of George North, mentioned in the will of his uncle John North of Rowley. What think you?
Our family occupied the farm at Coldroyd until the first quarter of XX. century. How might I learn the form of their tenure?
Many thanks just for listening! I hope you can shed some light on these questions.
You'll not find this Info in archives (sounds Impossible! The other side of the gate)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,536666.0.html
-
Last bit
Your Cousin in Huddersfield could try visiting YAS Leeds by appointment
http://www.yas.org.uk/content/claremont.html
Ask to see Red Book MS 517 by Tolson! It has all the early to mid- Wills transcribed for Kirkheaton.
If you live near a Latterday saints Church ancestry family library open to non church members- They have MS 517 Tolson Kirkheaton Book on micro film to order to view in the USA
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=406046&disp=Parish+register+transcripts+for+Kirkheat%20%20&columns=*,180,0
-
Thanks, Dobby.
Actually, my nearest cousin lives in Leeds! And she is familiar with the Tolson book. There is a poem in it about my immigrant ancestor and his brother.
Legh Tolson was another relative.
And, yes! I live about four miles from a very helpful LDS family history centre. That is where I have spent days poring over the Kirkheaton parish records.
I appreciate all your help, and was especially glad to receive your photos of the North monument; my cousin did a splendid job of accuracy. The only item I question is whether Mary, first wife of John North (near bottom of monument), was 38 (cousin's conclusion) or 58 (which would make her more John's vintage); from the photo, it could be either one, but I tend towards thinking it is 38.
Many thanks again.
Taddy.
-
Hi Taddy
Apart from query of uncle George North, you have Cousins with access repositories who will be well versed in where to find doc's like Wills & old doc's ( or easy to google search find ?)or MS 517 in your LDS local library and all the North already translated Wills you refered to are in MS 517 that your Leeds cousin has accessed! I'm a little puzzled why you asked about where to obtain original documents in the first place. ???
However you seem to be content with what rootschat have helped you with and that what counts
Regards
Dobby
-
Sorry to puzzle you, Dobby. Both cousins in WY who have done research are now getting on in years, and I am reluctant to ask them to do legwork. I have found, however, that the staffs of the various repositories in WY are quite helpful; so I thought if I had specific references to the various North documents, it would expedite the search.
I did forget one really important search: When John Broadbent of Coldroyd dwelt in Philadelphia, PA, he became close friends with JJE Mayall, the celebrated photographer who later settled in London and Brighton. Mayall, who photographed Queen Victoria, made a daguerreotype of JB gratis, and JB sent/gave it to his sister Ruth (later Mrs. Abraham Tattersall, of greater Leeds). Would it not make a lovely frontispiece for "John Broadbent of Coldroyd, Dalton and his Descendants"? But how to track the Tattersall descendants who have a common surname, lived in a large city, and were not notable/landed/etc., so far as I know. My relative in Leeds threw up her hands at the idea, but I am a bit more stubborn. ;D I ask, What would Legh Tolson do?
Taddy
-
Hi Taddy,
Now I understand, libraries & archive don't charge too much for copies! its the finding that cost. Only future info finding advice I can give is to Google websites like Genuki and LDS and many more. Take a little time to think your search entry in Google/Yahoo or other search engines, trying various wording attempts also google books website. Then go for forum websites giving a brief of your problem and what you have already attempted as this saves others retrying on the net. There is always chance then a forum member of the website will think that! outside help is need offline! if they live near repositories and they conclude its a genuine case! they may/will help resolve the issue.
Your photo! You could try a classified add in a Leeds newspaper? try contacting Leeds library and YAS for advice on and the photographers work.
Ancestry dot thingy members doing Broadbent's ancestry or Tattersall may send out Indian scouts or jungle drum messages to their relo's in Leeds
I think its a ICB missile shot but you never know.
Dobby
-
Dobby,
Thanks again! I shall follow through (or more probably muddle through somehow).
As for the Leeds search: I had actually found someone on Ancestry who had these people on her tree; however, they were only collateral, and she knew nothing further about them. But you were on the right track! The classified ad might also work.
Taddy.
-
Try posting on the photo restore board as there maybe a copy of the photo in some archive of the photographers work, there are many photography experts on there who may know about this type of photo. I afraid its not my subject
-
Ruth North baptised 26 th Dec 1774 son of Jno
.............................................................................................................................
John North
married 24 th June 1773 Banns laid 27th May 1773 Kirkheaton
Elizabeth Beumford
MARRIAGE
BATCH No M01272-3
FILM 990704
REF Blank
BANNS
BATCH No 102901-8
FILM 9937O2
REF No p141
It very unlikely this John North below D 1783 was the John above in the marriage as he would have been 75 at marriage in 1773 also the is no mention of a 2nd wife of John d 1783 on the grave stone
John North X Mary Senyor married 3 rd Feb 1724 Kirkheaton
As Bottom of gravstone Old Ground BL- 17. Kirkheaton
John North born 1698 died Oct 30 th 1783 age 85
Mary his Wife born 1701 died March 2 nd 1759 aged 58
-
Dobby, you made my day.
The info you posted bolsters a theory I have had for a number of years but could not prove.
As improbable as it may seem, it is not impossible that John North, born 1698, was the father of Ruth North Broadbent, born 1774. I have searched in vain for another John North who could be old John's son and Ruth's father.
Here is my supposition: John North (1698-1783), son of Benjamin and Ruth, wed Mary (Senior, we now know, in 1724). Mary died in 1759, and John remarried (at least once) to Elizabeth (Beumford, we now know, in 1773), who bore him Ruth. John dies in 1783, and Elizabeth remarries to William Hirst on March 5, 1784/5. Elizabeth is not included on North monument because she remarried; however, right smack against the North monument are the two Broadbent monuments chronicling the next three generations, even in America, starting with Ruth. (I think that there is a fourth monument nearby, to Edward Broadbent, but it is immaterial to this hypothesis.)
I grant you that it is more likely that John and Mary had a son John who married Elizabeth Beumford and had Ruth. But I cannot find (either in records or on a monumental inscription) a younger John to be Ruth's father, and it is rather compelling that old Johnny died in 1783 and very shortly thereafter in 1784/5 "Elizabeth North" married William Hirst in Kirkheaton. It is also compelling, though not probative, that the child of this unlikely marriage was named Ruth, probably after the old father's mother, nee Ruth Pollard. The only puzzle is what old John was doing between 1759 and 1773. This is why I had suspected he married Elizabeth Tweedale in Huddersfield in 1760. I strongly suspected that Ruth's mother's forename was "Elizabeth" because Ruth and James Broadbent seemed to employ that old naming pattern for their children, and their second daughter was named "Elizabeth." Again, not probative, but supportive.
If there was an intervening generation between old John and my Ruth, then where is it? It seems strange that a whole generation would go unmentioned in a six-generation chronicle on three adjoining tablets; it's not as if they had no room! for there was quite a span of time before some of the later Broadbents were added. And why would Ruth be the one to be buried there unless she was the likely candidate as old John's eldest child to the second marriage. Moreover, I have had no luck connecting our Coldroyd Norths with any other Norths in that vicinage.
Of course, the intervening "pond" does not help me in solving this puzzle.
Thanks especially for posting the Batch and Film numbers, because for some reason I cannot find Kirkheaton records from the mid-XVIII. century on IGI or on the films I heretofore examined at LDS Family History Center. No trouble finding the earlier and later ones; just that period in the middle.
I think I shall attempt attaching a collage I made for the Huddersfield cousin, showing Kirkheaton church, late cousin Maurice Broadbent at North-Broadbent stones, and garden view of the old house at Coldroyd, still standing, where the Norths, Broadbents, and Kilners lived.
Again, you made my day and earned some stars in your crown.
Taddy.
-
Dobby,
I should note that I am aware of the John North, son of John North, who was baptized at Kirkheaton on April 21, 1739. I can find nothing else about him, though. I concede he could be the son of John (1698-1783), the husband of Elizabeth, and the father of Ruth. But I believe that my previous supposition has more to support it, despite the huge age difference between presumed father and daughter.
Thanks for listening!
Taddy.
-
Hi Taddy.
With snips & bits of info with single line entries of PR- BMD's to 1754 marriages! -when we got witnesses -single or Widow/er and if lucky on any single line BMD an abode up to 1812 anything is possible but 75 is a bit old even them days :-\ if he had married Liz say 1763 at 65 that would be more possible
John North death 1783 may have a Will or Probate administration of his estate if he left no will but gives names of executors-maybe other names.
If I find anything else I'll post
-
Kirkheaton parish register 1786 page 88 Entry 201
Willaim Hirst X Eizabeth North
Married by Licence
Witnesses Joseph Blackburn
Ruth Lodge
Curate signed for William Hirst ? (Same hand writting)
Elizabeth North left her mark
5th March 1786 Kirkheaton Parish Church
..........................................................................................................................
Bond Allegation film 1440 ref 431786 (Ref is date 4.3.1786 Borthwick York Uni)
(The written part only did not bother with standard printed text on form only important bits)
The Obligation
George 111
William Hirst of the parish of Kirkheaton in the county of York, Clothier and
John Horncliffe of said parish, Clothier (Bestman or Bondsman)
Year or our Lord 4th March 1786
Willaim Hirst & Elizabeth North widow
The Bond
George111
Year or our Lord 4th March 1786
On this Day appeared William Hirst of the Parish of Kirkheaton in the diocese
of York, Clothier
Be sworn, alleged and made oath: That he is aged 41 years a widower
intends to marry Eizabeth North of the said parish aged 48 widow
William Hirst left his mark
-
John North Coxwinder X Elizabeth Tweedale spinster
Both of this town -St Peter's Parish Huddersfield county of York
By banns
3 rd Feb 1786
John North signed
Elizabeth Tweedale left her mark
Witnesses
James Booth
John Hanson (Henson?)
-
John North X Elizabeth Baumford
Both of this parish of Kirkheaton in the county of York
by Banns 6 th, 13 th, and 20 th of June 1773
24 th June 1773
John North Signed
Elizabeth Baumford left her mark
witnesses
John Hallas
Elizabeth Haworth
-
Info finding
Only possibility link is Both John North's marriages 1760 and 1773 marriage both signed their names
both very similar
Hope it helps
I'll make no judgement!!! either way! It's not my family.
Dobby
PS There is no Will or Administration of a probate of estate for a John North of Kirkheaton in the Will index from 1783 to 1790 book at Borthwick York
-
Dobby, that is some strong work. Thank you! It certainly throws the preponderance of the evidence towards showing that the second (we presume) Mrs. William Hirst was in fact John North's widow and Ruth Broadbent's mother. Now the question remains, Which John North? I wish there were not so many John Norths abiding in Kirkheaton parish at the same time!
Elizabeth's age at the time of her second marriage places her at nearly the same age as the John North baptized in 1739. But the timing of her second marriage rather suggests (I did not say "proves"! :) ) that she was remarrying after the 1783 death of her first husband.
I wonder if there is a monumental inscription for the John North baptized in 1739. I shall search the pages sent to me years ago by the staff at one of the WY libraries or archives.
Are those published indexes you consult? If so, I really should purchase copies. I also think the idea the gentleman interested in Kirkheaton churchyard has about placing Legh Tolson's book on CD is fantastic. I'd certainly support it.
I cannot thank you enough for your help. I shall weigh the evidence very carefully before drawing any real conclusions. But my original hypothesis has yet to be disproved!
What an interesting people the Kirkheaton folk were/are...especially in Dalton.
Gratefully,
Taddy.
-
Hi Taddy,
The bond allegation information was taken by me off the original record on micro film at Borthwick York after consulting the index first. With postage to the USA it will not be much cost to obtain a copy from them,
The John North marriages info again was taken from original copies on micro film at the Huddersfield library! again won't cost much to obtain copies of! to study the John's signatures
I think I would accept Mrs Elizabeth Hirst as Ruth North's b 1774 Mother Elizabeth Baumford or Elizabeth Tweedale (the death of this Tweedale actual lady prior to 1773 may be a clue)
Next job is to work on elimination of any other possible son John bapt (21 plus years before Ruth's bapt year 1774 Kirkheaton PR.) candidates if any? working on a son of John sr Death 1783 Kirkheaton, possible marriages and John deaths-wife deaths.
This! if any evidence is found that will support any theories you have enough to accept to a reasonable high degree as true or same level as a man/woman jury of 12. (ask 12 friends to judge when evidence is found and concluded- You take a back seat and await judgement of)
If anything else turns up -will post.
Dobby
-
|Hi Dobby,
Thanks for info.
Sandra
-
Elizabeth Balmford
Bapt 28 FEB 1737 Kirkburton, Yorkshire, England
Farther Joseph Balmford
-
Kirkheaton graveyard
Here lieth the remains of John North of Lidgate in the parish who resigned his mortal life 1788 Dec 15 th AD in his 51 st year of his age. Also Anne wife of said John North who departed this mortal life Jan the 18 th AD 1791 in the 53 year of her age. Also Ann the Great Grand daughter of William and Rebecca North of Fenny bridge Lepton who departed life Oct 9 th 1831 aged 10 weeks. Also Eliza the daughter of William and Rebecca North who departed this life Nov 26 th 1847 age 3 weeks, Also Martha the daughter of Willian and Rebecca North who departed this life Feb 23 rd 1850 aged 20 years
Also of John Edward son of Martha North who departed this life March 12 th 1850 aged 3 weeks
Also John North their son who died May 31 th 1851 aged 18 years
-
Dobby,
Once again, thanks! I have recorded all the film roll numbers I need, and shall descend upon the Family History Center nearby the next time they are open for business. Ours is a small, satellite FHC, so it may take me a while to obtain the films, but I shall post findings after perusing the films.
I shall contact Borthwick Institute also.
And how can I attach a photograph to this thread?!?
Taddy.
-
You can't put photos on the look up board. its to stop people posting Birth certs, original census and PR's;- Ie;- copyrights!! etc--- in ignorance
-
Dobby,
Thanks for the explanation about pictures. UK copyright laws must be a lot stricter than USA copyright laws. I have been wondering whether the copyright on Legh Tolson's Kirkheaton history has expired, because I strongly support the idea Mr. John E--- has about copying it onto CD. There is a very interesting photo in it of one of my ancestral houses (long since demolished) with two little boys in sailor-like costume playing in the garden, of which I'd like a high-resolution scan. But I'd hate to include it in any of my publications and then be sued or prosecuted for copyright infringement or both!
Also, I believe that the John North whose death is recorded on the stone with all those small children, which you just posted above, could well be the John, son of John North, baptized in 1739. If he is, that removes the only possible candidate I have found to be Ruth North Broadbent's father other than the elderly gent on our famous monument. Closing in!
Taddy.
-
I'll look up the baptism 1739 PR of John of father John to see if there is an abode Dalton or Lidget but Kirkheaton is very limited with entry info compared to others parish registers! so not too hopeful
-
Dobby,
Here is a link to a pertinent webpage: http://www.brianalvey.com/news/2004/05/18/tony-randall-father-of-two/
:)
Taddy.
-
Hi
It not impossible! In India! A chap of 80 married of a Girl 11 and she had a child! then he poped his clogs- leaving her a widow at 12 with a child.
-
John North Baptisms of Father John
1700 Up to 1750 Kirkheaton Bapt's
17 Oct 1724 John of Edward North - abode Lepton
22-July 1721 John of John North - abode Dalton
10 April 1739 John of John North - abode Lepton
28 Oct 1716 John of Joseph North - abode Dalton
9 Jan 1725/6 John of Richard North - abode Dalton
3 July 1735 John of Richard North - abode Dalton
28 May 1721 John of Robert North -abode Dalton
17 Feb 1731/4 John of Robert North -abode Dalton
5 Sept 1730 John of William North -abode Dalton
8 Aug 1742 John of William North -abode Dalton
Next John bapt is 1774
Burials Not transcribed
John North X Mary Senyor married 3 rd Feb 1724 Kirkheaton
-
1700 to 1750 Kirkheaton
Baptisms of father John ( Excluding John Of John Already Given above)
20 May 1710 Blank of John North Dalton
18 Aug 1723 Ann of John North Dalton
13 Jan 1741/2 Ann of John North Lepton
20 Aug 1749 Arthur of John North Dalton
28 May 1711 Benjamin of John North ----------
19 Oct 1728 Elizabeth of John North Lepton
9 Nov 1734 Hannah of John North ----------
10 May 1727 Joseph of John North Dalton
1 Sept 1717 Mary of John North Dalton
27 Nov 1725 Mary of John North Dalton
26 Feb 1731/2 Mary of John North Lepton
24 July 1737 Mary of John North Heaton
10 Oct 1730 Matthew of John North Dalton
26 Dec 1741 Nancy of John North Heaton
24 Sept 1742 Phebe of John North Dalton
14 Aug 1734 Sarah of John north Lepton
30 Nov 1732 Stephen of John North Dalton
1 May 1737 Tabatha of John North Dalton
17 Aug 1716 William of John North Dalton
-
Hi
That about wraps it up as things to look up. With all them John's bapts ???
also Almondbury and Kirkburton also Huddersfield so close! having more John's
Ruth's GT grandfather (by dates) could a have been Benjamin with one wife being called Ruth and living at Coldroid (royd) Dalton. No doubt Benjamin had other sons who in turn had sons called John. Who was Ruth's grand father is the question most folk will ask or how do you prove J'no's dad was John or Benjamin or an unknown?. The grave flatstones memorials at Kirkheaton in the old ground have been moved from their original location, so stones that are near to each other today (Broadbent's & North's) is pure chance and is not where they were buried originally in most cases.
Yes Well ::)
I have looked for John North's burial 1783 Will! without success! but there could be a Will with Ruth's name in, the real father! if he was a younger dad and died much later in the early 19th century ???
This my last post reply on this subject! matter.
Regards Dobby
-
Dobby,
A million thanks for all your efforts. You have gone the extra mile, and John North and I appreciate it.
I shall choose my words very carefully when writing about this North-Broadbent connexion!
Kindest regards,
Taddy.
-
Hi Taddy.
The residence of Coldroid and Ruth wife of Benjamin still point to a very strong family connection path back from Ruth bapt 1774 to them though!. ;) long overgrown! other North Wills maybe the lawn mowers
Good Hunting!
Dobby
-
My thoughts exactly, Dobby. I realize you are probably weary of this topic by now, but other readers may benefit from a recapitulation of all the facts we have analysed.
Since reading your last post, I have thought very deeply about the possibility that my hypothesis had been unrealistic. So I reviewed my files again. I also put it to a very skeptical friend of mine. The only fact which gives us pause is the long span of years between the births of John North (1698-1783) and Ruth North Broadbent (b. ca. 1774). But there are a number of facts (and hints) which tend to outweigh that:
1. Although I'm aware that some of the old tombstones in the Kirkheaton churchyard have been moved, yet it seems quite a coincidence that the stones of the Norths of Coldroyd and the Broadbents of Coldroyd and some of their descendants all found their way to the same location. The Broadbents whom my ancestor left behind in Dalton and Kirkheaton were very studious people, very conscious of their heritage, and seemingly very much attached to the fact that Coldroyd was the ancestral house. I suspect they would have at least observed, if not become involved with, any movement of monuments, especially those Broadbents who dwelt very near the church.
2. As you point out, the name "Ruth" is a strong hint. While not an unusual name, "Ruth" is not extremely common either. It is very likely that a son of Ruth Pollard North would have named his daughter for her; it certainly follows the naming patterns widely employed in the XVIII. and XIX. centuries.
3. Coldroyd! I notice that the parish register often refers to the Norths "of Coldroyd," including when the John (1698-1783) who now commands our attention was buried. And when John Broadbent (1795-1856)'s last-born child was baptized, she was listed as a daughter of John Broadbent "of Coldroyd Dalton." Although I believe at one point there were as many as ten families residing at Coldroyd during the Victorian industrial boom, yet I believe that in the Norths' days and early Broadbent tenancy, the place accommodated fewer families, not unlike its present configuration. Coldroyd is definitely the badge of consanguinity between the old Norths and my Broadbents.
4. Back to the old-time naming pattern: Ruth Broadbent named her second daughter "Elizabeth," which, if one follows the common naming pattern of that time, would suggest (though not prove) that Ruth North Broadbent's mother's forename was "Elizabeth" (the first daughter being "Sarah" for the husband's mother). And indeed we have one John North marrying ELIZABETH Balmforth just in time to have Ruth! And...we have the widow Elisabeth North remarrying to William Hirst in 1784 or 1785. This suggests to me that she was the widow of John North of Coldroyd (1698-1783), remarrying as soon as it was respectable to do so after his death.
5. While there are tons of John Norths around Kirkheaton parish during that era, the Coldroyd line itself seems to be pretty slender. I can find no trace of any children born to John (1625-1695) and Margaret North except Benjamin. And, oddly enough for those days, I can find no trace of any child born to either of Benjamin's wives except for John (1698-1783). That is almost unbelievable for that time period.
6. I am open to believing that Ruth (b. 1774) could have been the great-granddaughter of Benjamin and Ruth through another son's line, but such a line just doesn't seem to be there. I suppose that either of the Robert Norths whom you list as having sons John could possibly be a son of Benjamin, but is there record of Robert's baptism? I have not found any.
6. If John North of Coldroyd (1698-1783) was (first) married to Mary Senior in 1724, we can probably eliminate the John North son of John of Dalton baptized in 1721 as John of Coldroyd's son. Likewise, the John North baptized in 1739, of Ludgit, died in 1788, so he could not have been the husband of Elizabeth North, widow, who married Wm. Hirst in 1785 (although that doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't have fathered Ruth). And there aren't any other Johns who qualify as Ruth North's father in 1774.
Perhaps a will will indeed turn up which resolves this issue. Let us hope!
Thanks again!
Taddy.
-
This is my last post as work building up! while sat here.
I always say after putting my thoughts, case and sources! With the lack of clear evidence? its is up to the reader to judge or investigate futher.
Some info is better than no info to work on! all idea's are good because it adds to the some total Knowledge -Right or wrong if only Eimination or to accept!
Keep up your interesting ancestry at all cost! :)
Dobby
Ps Things do turn up!-Hope!
-
Thanks again!
And, yes, what beats the School of Experience?
Yes! Thats it! if it sounds stupid or impossible-go for it! like a bull at a gate! pure Experience of thumps and bumps ;D and find whats on the other side of the gate! ;)
-
Found this at WYAS Wakefield Archive register of Deeds and Diocese Registers
Deeds Wills index Book (2nd 1800's book of 2-First book 1700's)
1862 John Broadbent North of West Ardsley Woodchurch
Stonemason.
-
Thanks, Dobby! Ya never know!
-
Hi Taddy
I have re-checked the Wills probate index, 1750 to 1858 and there are No John North Wills for Kirkheaton/Almondbury (Huddersfield area)or Administration by executors (When no will of deceased is left)
I checked 1773 to 1786 Very intently.
Just seems if someone? turned the North tap off those years on info! :(
-
Dobby, thanks for clarifying the Will thing.
As for turning off the North tap: It probably is that dratted genealogy gnome who is always vexing me.
:-[
Taddy.
-
Not a lot as for proving anything. ??? and Broadbent's :-\
-
Not a lot as for proving anything. ??? but ;)
'Almondbury Annals' does not make sence when one checks the real deeds
I'll Give you this! info free as in interest in North's!. It is the only relative linking North info there is! in the Deeds! there are other deeds but only land owned stuff! no linking of names or ages of names,
Register of Deeds Wakefield WYAS
.......
Deed Of Land-GG -Vol 337 page 472
Deeds Will 1743 RR- Vol 265 page 341
William North. Estate-People in the Will.
...........
Kirkheaton BT's Borthwick (10 years earlier than Kirkheaton Grave one says but could be the same Benjamin? as as estimated birth year 1671)
Bapt 18th Feb 1660- 1661- Benjamin son of John North of baptized
..........
Kirkheaton Church Register
Bapt John North 4th Oct 1696 son Benjamin of Lacelles Hall Kirkheaton
Have Fun!
Dobby :)