RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Boongie Pam on Sunday 08 January 06 20:04 GMT (UK)
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I've started this new thread from the inspiration of another...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,31004.0.html
My own fascination in "potters" and earthenware dealers comes from my Anderson, Robinson, & Lowther ancestors from Cumberland and Northumberland.
There seems to be different kinds of pot or earthenware hawkers/dealers.
Those that had shop oulets and those that travelled a route plying a trade village to village.
In my family I have a <A HREF="http://fallon.rootschat.net/163.html">Henry Lowther</A> who seemed to be a man of means, owning properties in Wigton and Ulverston. He is listed in Pigots so I presume he had an outlet in Wigton. Another chap <A HREF="http://fallon.rootschat.net/161.html">Thomas Robinson</A> who owned a warehouse outside Carlisle at Brunstock - possibly the trade side of the dealing?
Other members of the family always seem to be on the move. Children born in many different parishes. Living in tents and caravans on the census.
One thing I've found is that whenever I find a "potter" or "Earthenware dealer" in Cumberland I can normally trace a relationship to my Lowthers.
This made me think was there a dynastic control over the trade? Anyway that's the basis for why I'm interested.
Way back when it is my belief that my ancestors came from gypsy ancestry. I have been in touch with one person with the same name who until a few decades ago still ploughed a trade in caravans in the north of England. He believes the Lowthers are connected to Lee, Herron and Lovell families of southern England and Wales.
So I am going to attempt to gather as much info on the hawkers and dealers of pots, earthenware and glass.
This is where I need your help!
Do you have any Hawkers or dealers in your tree?
If you do and you want to include data please post here.
The Earthenware Dealers seem easy to find as they appear in Directories but the Hawkers and travelling hawkers/dealers are harder to pin down.
Have you found them from census, BMD certs, MI, directories etc?
What other occupations of this vein have you found on census etc?
I've seen Potter (Cumberland), Hawker of Pots, Earthenware Dealer, Dealer of China, Hawker of small wares, Glass Merchant, China Merchant, Merchant of stoneware, Hawker of Crockery, Pedlar of China.
I want to map all the names - see how big a dynasty there was - if there was one!
December 18th 1841 CP : At Longtown on the 7th inst, Mr Thomas Anderson, potter, at the age of 79 years. The deceased was well known in the adjoining counties in his profession. Transcript from http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/longtown19/ Excellent Site!
Nice photo...
http://www.thepotteries.org/descriptive_account/hanley/37a.htm
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I have one in my sister in laws side of the tree. She comes from a long line of gypsey/travelling families.
Samuel Worrall as indicated on his daughters birth certificate 21/7/1884 as dealer of earthenware living in Marsh Lane, Shrawadine, Shropshire.
Samuel was born 20/4/1860 in Birmingham.
In later information i have him as a basket maker.
Any other info you want noted?
David.
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Hi All
Interesting topic!!......I too have found rellies in the same job....few details at the mo...sorry not as detailed as alot of you have already found out
What I have so far.........
Of my g g g grandfather's wife...in 1851..
Pheobe Morelee 47 Earthenware dealer as was her daughter Ann aged 16 living in Mold, Flintshire, North Wales.
Pheobe and a couple of daughters appear in later census as earthenware dealers or hawkers in and around the same town.
Nearly all the men appear as coal miners until 1870s when most moved to nearby Buckley and were in the brick industry........all the way along until my own father working in brick kilns in Buckley during the 1960's.........clay seemed to be the way to go in my family!!! LOL
This thread has certainly made me think about their jobs and to find out more about the earthenware dealers / hawkers that were in my family
Sarah
:D
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Thanks so much for your reply.
Some of my dealers became Besom makers and dealers.
I have no real ide what I'm going to do with teh info at teh moment :-\
But at least a database of names coupled with locations and maybe a map so if I see anyway of expending it I may try to get more info out of you ;D
For now that's great ta.
Sorry Sarah - posts clashed ;D
Thanks fro your info as well ;) It does seem a trade the women continued with. Teh ladies in my family seem to plough the money into property.
Morelee is a very interesting name. Do you know it's origins?
Pam
;D
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hello just saw your post dont know if this would be of any interest to you my traveller family were thorpes one branch of the the thorpes eventually settled down in glandford brigg in lincolnshire and they were described as earthenware /pottery dealers they had a warehouse type place on the industrial side of glandford brigg
i could provide more info should you feel this is of interest to you
donna ;D
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Dear Pam
I come from a dynasty of hawkers of pots in Warwickshire.
Like you I believe that their roots were gypsy, or at least traveller.
Their names were Kirby, Whitehouse and Bentley.
They were intimately connected to the Sharpe family of Ashby de la Zouch.
I suspect to the family that ran Sharpe's Pottery there. ( I haven't proved this)
It was through a marriage into the Sharpe family in 1830 that my ancestor Joseph Kirby entered the trade. His son married a Bentley woman and their son married a Whitehouse daughter.
This daughter, the matriarch of the later family, Sarah Whitehouse, was the daughter of an Elizabeth Whitehouse illegitimately by a John Bentley.
Elizabeth had five or six other illegitimate children before marrying an Isaac Bentley in 1864 in Birmingham.
Wherever they pop up, in the censuses, (widely disparate places) the same surnames crop up again and again, intermarrying, which is what I'm told gypsy families did.
This must be exactly what you are intewrested in, mustn't it? I think gypsies must have been the ideal people to hawk pottery around the country.
They would have been well used to long distance travelling, and known all of the best routes inside out.
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I'm a bit late to reply to this, but it sparked my interest. I've just recently come to the realization that my ancestors were potters, hawkers, pedlers, travellers, and such. There are some I don't have info on yet, and that would be my Anderson's. My GGG Grandmother was Isabel/Isabella Anderson born about 1771 in Northumberland. I believe her Father may have been Alexander Anderson, but haven't found her actual birth record yet. Isabel married Robert Todd (perhaps in Morpeth?). I've seen Robert as a potter and I believe pottery merchant or pedler in Northumberland. I've found who I think are 7 children attributed to them, and they did move around a lot within Northumberland. Their Son was Matthew Todd (b 1802) who married Helen/Ellen Drummond (b 1800),(my GG Grandparents), and they had 5 children in Scotland. On the 1841 census Matthew shows as a stoneware merchant. I believe Helen's Brother, Alexander Drummond (b 1803) is above them on the census and is a stoneware merchant also. On the 1851 census Matthew's occupation appears to say: travelling Marsh, or something like that, so seems to be a "traveller"? Alexander Drummond and I believe another Brother James (b 1812) are on the 1851 census as basket makers. I think Helen, Alexander, and James parents were an Alexander Drummond and Helen Diet, Dyet, Dyer, or Dewar (both possibly born early 1760s)? I've seen this Alexander as a basket maker, licensed hawker, Chapman pedler, in Scotland. They also moved around a lot. Matthew and Helen (Drummond) Todd immigrated to Ontario about 1855. In Ontario Matthew Todd was a horse trader and farrier.
Would be interested in possible ancestors/relatives of my Todds, Andersons and Drummonds.
Thanks!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA)
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Hi. My g g g g grandfather was a hawker of earthenware. But the jobs seemed to change from time to time. Some people did research on that ancestor of mine and here is what they found during the 1800 census.
1871
New Yard melbourne Derbys
William James Head M 56 Hawker of Earthenware Huh??Derbys
Jane wife 52 Derby Derbyshire
Mary daughter 18 Lace Glove Stitcher Melbourne derbys
Joseph son 15 Farm Boy Melbourne
Jane daughter 10 melbourne
RG10 3552 78 10
1861
New Yard melbourne
William James head M 47 Coal Higgler
Jane wife 41
Sarah James daughter 12 Silk Winder
Hannahjames daughter 12 12 Silk Winder
Mary Willm James daughter 8 scholar
Joseph Willm James son 5 scholar
Jane James daughter under 4 (or 1?) month
all b Melbourne
RG9 2489 60 13
1851
???anch Croft
Derby Rd Melbourne
William James Head M 38 labourer & potter Hartshorn Derbys
Jane James wife 32 Glove stitcher Melbourne derbys
William Willn step son 13 errand boy melbourne
Elizabeth james sdaughter 11 Nurse girl Derby Hills
Thomas W james son 9 derby Hills
Sarah James daughter 4 melbourne
Hnnah James dauhgter 2 melbourne
HO107 2140 319 3
That's the only one so far. They are the grand parents of my great grandfather to his mother's side.
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Hi Pam,
Are you still looking for info, most of my lot where Earthenware Dealers etc, Young's, Cunningham, Varney (and variants), Wilson, Kelly, Hartley etc.
Loads of them, all on the move, northern England and Scotland.
Would you be interested, if yes, then I will gather the info together and write it out for you, could take some time ::).
Yours Jane.
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Pam, I just spotted this thread as I was passing by, I've a Broughton Atkinson in Barnoldswick, Yorkshire who was a tailor all his long life but in 1881 he was also an Earthenware Dealer, not two trades that I would expect together.
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hi
i have Lowthers Sowerby Adams who were travelling and selling earthenware and horse dealing in 1800's in Cumberland, North England. I ahve more info and can share with you
best wishes
Marie
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I hope this project is still live as I have recently found some earthen ware hawkers/dealers on my tree too
James WHITEHOUSE was a hawker on the 1841 census born in Warwickshire and when he died in 1850 he was said to be 49 giving his birth as 1801. When his son was baptised in Hook Norton in 1823 James was described as an earthenware man.then in 1824 another son was baptised in Warwick and James was described as a traveller In 1826 and 1831 he was down as a potter then in 1834 he was once again described as a hawker. What is interesting is the next generation James born 1821 started his career as a policeman in 1861 then became a fruiter 1871 & 1881 However on the 1891 he is back working as a police constable. In 1845 this James married a widow Elizabeth Grimmerd nee WHITEHOUSE she was the daughter of Joseph and Ann WHITEHOUSE of whom nothing definite has been found. They are named on Elizabeth's baptism age 14 in Warwick her father's occupation given as Servant but no indication as to what type of servant, and why was she baptised at such an odd age. Elizabeth married Samuel GRIMMERD when she was 18 in St Martin's Birmingham She was widowed and left with two young children when she married James was he a sympathetic cousin or a distant relation Elizabeth and James had two children baptised in Warwick on one baptism his occupation was Traveller and on the other Earthenware Dealer Their son James born in 1850 was also a fruiter (1881)and dealer(hawker)(1891) he died in 1905 aged 56 and was described as a greengrocer.
Samuel GRIMMERD son of William an umbrella maker was this a Romany trade? Sam had a younger brother Edwin who was a trunk maker.again is this a Romany trade?he married the wonderfully named Euphemia Sarah Fielder the oldest of four sisters the others being Veronica, Lucretia and Josephine these names are a bit flowery do they belong to the travelling families? They are altogether a very mysterious bunch all four sisters tale exactly 9 years off their age on the later censuses why???
Have I found a Romany or Gypsy family among my Warwickshire ancestors? Can anyone give me a definite answer to the question are my Whitehouses true Romany or Gypsies
Hope you can throw some light on this small branch of my tree
Trees
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I have some later info on the Whitehouse family in Warwick.
Florence Whitehouse born 14/06/1874 at 14 Bowling Green St,Warwick,married soldier Thomas McPherson.
Florence father was a James Whitehouse fruiterer and general dealer and mother Amelia Green.
Florence and Thomas moved from Dublin where Tom stationed in the R Warwicks Reg,over to Oxford in 1920.He worked at Bisley and also ran a Territorial unit of a kind in Oxford University.He died in Oxford in 1952.
Florence died Oxford 1948.
The earlier origins of the Whitehouse family I too have been unable to get accurate.
Had no idea they may be hawkers until found this post today.
Brionne.
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Hello brionne
I had Florence's marriage but had not gone any further with her as she is a bit on the edge of my tree but her sister Ann Elizabeth married William PRATT in 1898 William was a son of my 2xgt grandparents and James Whitehouse(Florence's father) had a sister Harriet who married Charles Edward PRATT brother of William it isn't quite as complicated as it sounds.
You can see these PRATTS on our web site if it helps.
The biggest problem with the Whitehouses is who were Elizabeth's parents the only mention i can find of Joseph and Ann is on Elizabeth's baptism
Can we share the load with them a bit?
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i have hawkers of pottery in my family their down as dish hawkers on 1911 census for stirling .a alfred yates and a james yates also their sister mary jane boag my grt grannie living in newcastle at that time. ;D
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Just a note not all Earthen ware Dealers and Pottery hawkers etc were Romany thisi was a country trade long before the Rom and other travellers started to trade same as besom making and hurdle making and brush making all country trades for the peasant classes of that era .In fact many were listed as hawkers of one kind or another but this does not always mean they were Romany.
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hi Romany, Many thanks for that timely reminder but how can we tell a true Romany or not. I would like to know if my Whitehouse and Grimerrd family were or were not Romany please can you help with it? Did Romany folk ever have a permenant base where some of the children stayed while the parents travelled for example?
My James Whitehouse is described as a Hawker, a traveller and an earthenware man at various times but 4 of his known 6 children were all baptised in the same church and 3 of the children were living with a china dealer in 1851 I can't find any connection with the china dealer, Mary HAL,L and the family so why were the three all under 15 be with that lady And why did she have the three Whitehouse children and another 10 yr old Thomas Sandford and 15 year old john Harwood with her its really rather odd all the youngsters are called servants. Do the names Harwood, Hall, Sandford ,Grimerrd and Whitehouse have any Romany connection do you know?
Hope you can shed some light on it for me
:) Trees
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Just looking at Trees coat of arms. McMullen? My GG Grandfather wasn't a traveller, but was a McMullen or McMullan. He was a shoemaker from Ireland.
My Traveller's were Todd, Drummond, and Anderson. My families have shown as potters, muggers, stoneware merchants, basket makers, Chapman pedlars, licensed hawkers, tinsmiths, and in Ontario a horse trader. For a lot, I was able to find children's birth records, but the families obviously moved about a lot because of various birth locations. However, there are very few marriage records, so they may have married within a group.
I don't really know if mine had a home base, but it seems they probably did. On my GG Grandmother's headstone it says "of Perthshire", and that's not where she was born. Also, it seemed my GG Grandparent's encouraged their children to be educated, and I'm pretty sure one was educated at Perthshire.
I don't know if there was Romany influence in my family or not. My reading about Traveller's and Romany's indicates they probably travelled in different groups, but there was some intermarriage. My family seemed to move around the border and in the Lowlands. I have also read, that a lot of people had to "take to the roads" as a result of the after effects of the Battle of Culloden, when many were thrown off the land.
I may never know for sure, so I try to study all possibilities.
Thanks!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA, USA)
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Was he James from Bellaghy County Londonderry? I have sent you an PM James was my husbands gt gt grandfather and was a shoemaker
fingers crossed
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Thanks Trees!! I replied to your private message. My Irish shoemaker was John McMullen married at Downpatrick 1844.
However, one of my closest matches for DNA was a McMullen from County Londonderry, so this could be very interesting to pursue.
Thanks!! Tom McMillan
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Potters and earthenware dealers are to be found all over northern England of the past. The difference between gipsy and gorgio potters is revealed in their wedding certificates because each tended to marry his own kind. I have collected thousands of parish register entries referring to potters and earthenware dealers. If you would like me to post some of them please select a surname. I will include the other recorded occupations so that you can see what the proportions were.
All the traditional traveller families of the north have similar statistics with just over half the entries referring to pottery and many of the others being hawkers who may well have sold pottery.
TL
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The names I am interested in are Whitehouse,Grimmerd,Salmon and Randle but these are midlanders so I'm not sure if they would appear on your North Of England list :)
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If your still intrested in these people I have Billingham's listed as Licenced Earthenware Hawker/Dealer on several of the census (1881 1891) returns, and although the family are listed as living in a Caravan, they come from the Chain making Billingham's of the West Midlands area.
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Hi King OTG,
Have you any with the name Mills, from the early 1800s, in Nottinghamshire & Lincolnshire, or general East Midlands counties areas? I'd be very grateful for your help
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DBY Ashbourne bp29/6/1862 (b29/5) Annie Eliza d/o Joseph/Mary Ann MILLS, brazier of A
LIN Langtoft bp6/4/1841 Thomas s/o Robert/Susan MILLS, potter of Nottingham
NTS Aynho bp24/4/1755 Mary d/o Charles/Mary MILLS, travs
NTS Maidwell bp1/1/1756 Elizabeth d/o James/Elizabeth MILLS, trav
NTS Maidwell bp1/1/1756 John s/o James/Elizabeth MILLS, trav
BDF Maulden br25/1/1762 Elizabeth MILLS, a trav
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Thanks very much for those refs. The Thomas s of Robert & Susan is my family, but I will look into the others
Vimira
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Wow... At a long shot I thought Id type in my Granda's Grandma's name Ive been relentlessly trying to trace my roots... She was Martha Lowther a grand lady (hawker) married to Tom Crickerd. Her Dad was Chucky Bob Lowther...(Charles Robert Lowther) Martha and a lot of my family lived on Potters Lonning in Workington.. Was knocked down long before I was born.. I have a photograph of the grand lady and had the honour of meeting her daughter also Martha (My Grandads aunty) Who was also a grand lady :) My Grandad speaks highly of Martha and says she was a lovely woman. Also sold fish. Our family also has a connection to the Millers of Whitehaven... We may be related :)
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My Great x 2 Grandparents were James and Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick. They sold earthenware and made besoms and baskets in Northumberland. They became infamous in 1855 when they were charged along with a family of Andersons/Allen with the murder of their landlady called Dorothy Bewick in a case which came to be known as the 'Matfen Murder.' They were all acquitted at their trial in 1856. In 1841 there is a nine year old Jane Anderson with the family which would go on to be held for trial with my own ancestors. This family was made up of Isabella Anderson known as Tibby, Michael Allen, Jane Anderson and Ellen/Eleanor Anderson. They were hawkers.
James and Elizabeth's youngest son Thomas married Isabella Miller who was the daughter of Jacob and Jane Miller nee Anderson. The latter was the daughter of Alexander and Isabella Anderson. (Morpeth area).
My ancestor James' had a sister called Ann who married an Adam Drummond. They had a daughter Mary. I don't know what became of Ann and family after that.
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Interested to see that this post is still going, my post 12, regarding the Whitehouse family Warwick.
Unable to add any more information Brionne.
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I just came across this post yesterday.
Incidentally, the Grandparents of Jacob Miller who married Jane Anderson were William Miller and Jane Steward.
Coincidentally, Jacob and Jane went on to have a Grandson called William Miller who married a Jane Steward in North Shields in 1913. This son was born to their son Michael Miller who married Elizabeth Watson who was the daughter of William Watson and Mary Conroy. Mary was the daughter of my Great x 2 Grandparents James and Elizabeth.
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My Great x 2 Grandparents were James and Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick. They sold earthenware and made besoms and baskets in Northumberland. They became infamous in 1855 when they were charged along with a family of Andersons/Allen with the murder of their landlady called Dorothy Bewick in a case which came to be known as the 'Matfen Murder.' They were all acquitted at their trial in 1856. In 1841 there is a nine year old Jane Anderson with the family which would go on to be held for trial with my own ancestors. This family was made up of Isabella Anderson known as Tibby, Michael Allen, Jane Anderson and Ellen/Eleanor Anderson. They were hawkers.
James and Elizabeth's youngest son Thomas married Isabella Miller who was the daughter of Jacob and Jane Miller nee Anderson. The latter was the daughter of Alexander and Isabella Anderson. (Morpeth area).
My ancestor James' had a sister called Ann who married an Adam Drummond. They had a daughter Mary. I don't know what became of Ann and family after that.
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Hi Jack,
Welcome to RootsChat!
Did you mean to post anything else besides my quote? I am quite excited to see if you are posting because you may also be a descendant, perhaps?
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Hi river Tyne lass, I noticed you mentioned Adam Drummond being married to Ann, they are my 5 x great grand parents. They had a son Thomas born in shilbottle in 1804. Andrew born eglingham 1807. Adam born longframlington 1810, jane longfram' 1814 and john born 1819 who died aged approx' 1yr. Ann's father was Andrew Allen basket maker native of lorbottle. I can't seem to find anything more about Adam or Ann prior to 1804, but I have the whole family tree up to 1903 if it's any help to you. Regards jack.
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Yes but I'm new to this and made a mistake. The Adam Drummond you mentioned who married Ann Conroy is Andrew Drummond and Mary Ramsey's son , I think I have the name's of the children they had but I'll have to dig through my paperwork for you.
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Hi Jack,
I wonder if we are talking about different people - the Ann Conroy who was the sister of my Great x 2 Grandparents James and Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick and who married Adam Drummond was born in 1834 and baptised in Chatton. They had a daughter called Mary before their marriage.
I am not at home but I have lots of information at home. Their marriage information and more ..
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Oh, so you might be a descendant after all? Very exciting!!
This would be great as after marriage I have lost sight of Ann and Adam .. although I believe I have info at home re daughter Mary which I can hunt out.
I have also lost sight of my Great Grandfather x 2 sister Margaret born 1837 and sister of Ann. Last I have her is when she was sent to the Hexham House of Correction.
If you are a descendant, I would gladly send my email to you by pm. I have researched a lot on this family so can send you a lot over time. (However, I must say I do not know still what became of Ann and Margaret and I still do not know what became of my Great x 2 ancestor Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick after 1881.)
What complicates things a little is that I also know that sometimes this family also used the alias name of Gilroy/Kilroy. This is definitely established. An article in the press also related that my ancestor James Conroy was also known as Gilroy - this came to light during a court case. Whether the use of these alias names was by accident or design I will likely never know.
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I have Adam being born approx'1836 and at 1834
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Is this Ann your ancestor? That would be incredible if you are also a descendant!! I have always wondered if I might come across another descendant on here. :D
I think the age of that Adam might sound right .. I have to go off now. However, I will be back on here later this evening and will post the marriage details I have for them. They married in Hexham at a parish Church even though Ann's family background was Catholic. She was also baptised at a Anglican Church.
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I have the marriage dated at 8th may 1962. But I've had problems with Adams since I started my family research, every son had an Adam in the family. But I believe this is the right one.his family are Robert born 1831. Andrew my 4x ggf born 1840. John born 1833
Eve born 1839 died 1yr of smallpox. Ann 1846. And jane 1850.
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Hi Jack,
To start this is Ann's baptism:
Holy Cross, Chatton
18 February 1834
Daughter of James & Mary Conroy
Abode: Lock Gilley, Ireland (I believe this is really likely to be Loughgilley but it is pronounced as like Lock Gilley.)
Travelling Besom Maker
By Henry Parker, Curate
This is what I have for their marriage:
St Andrew, Hexham
Entry 341
8 May 1862
Ann Conroy & Adam Drummond
His age 25 Her age 28
Bachelor & Spinster
Labourer
Both had residence as 'Hexham'
Fathers:
Andrew Drummond - Cooper
James Conroy - Labourer
Witnesses: Ann Canigan - her mark & John Robson
Both Ann and Adam signed with their marks
By Banns
Now this part I am unsure of but I did try to find something for Adam's background a good while back. I did come across an Andrew Drummond who was a Cooper living in Whitley (today known as Whitley Bay) in the Tynemouth registration district in 1861. His wife was Mary, who was a hawker & also
30 Robert - son
21 Andrew - son
19 Ann - daughter in law
15 Ann - daughter
11 Jane
It might be that Andrew's daughter Ann married Henry Johnson at St Stephen in South Shields on 1 October 1866. It might also be that they had a son John who married in 1858 to Catherine Smith Tynemouth reg district. However, I never got around to chasing all this up as I was not completely sure that this family might have been Adam's father and siblings.
Now going back to Ann & Adam I believe their daughter might have been this girl:
Mary Drummond
Parents Adam Drummond & Ann Conroy
Born 25 August 1854
Baptised 10 September 1854 St Francis of Xavier RC, Cheeseburn Grange
She is recorded as having been born at 'Waterloo'
(Incidentally my great x 2 Grandparents James & Elizabeth were living at Waterloo Cottages in 1855 and a couple of their children were also baptised at this Church. Their landlady was known as 'Dolly of Waterloo' Dorothy Bewick)
Now I believe this Mary Drummond turns up again in 1871 age 16 as the niece of Peter Conroy and Ann Conroy and living in Bedlington with Ann's children from other relationships (Jane Smith and Conroys although some really the children of Daniel McBride) and also her children by Peter.
Just briefly for now - I believe this Ann was originally Ann Miller whose father was Jacob Miller. The Millers and Conroys were friends and there were marriages between them down the years. I believe this Ann had her illegitimate daughter 'Jane Smith' baptised at Christ Church Tynemouth when she was residing in the workhouse. She then went on to marry Daniel McBride then Peter Conroy.
I wonder what you think of this so far? For instance, do you think that the Andrew at Whitley might have been Adam's father or do you think I have gone off track there?
I would be interested if you know what became of Ann Drummond nee Conroy after she married Adam if you know of this. Did she have more children? Where might they all be on the census? Also, do you happen to know where, when she and Adam died?
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Yes that is my 3 x ggf's brother Adam right enough who married Ann Conroy. I found a Ann Conroy Drummond on family search.org for the birth of Mary. The thing is there was 4 other Adams all born around the same time, all cousins. And I'm making progress with those but not with the Adam who married Ann unfortunately. Now there was 2 marriages that I'm aware of between Drummond's and Millers, I speak to a descendant of theirs from alnwick quite regularly. I will keep trying to dig more up about Adam and Ann though.
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Now that is very interesting, that there were four Adams who were all cousins. I am wondering now if there may have been more than one Adam Drummond with a wife called Ann Conroy. The one who married in Hexham and whose Father was James is my Great x 2 Grandfather's sister. However, I am now wondering if the couple who had Mary as their daughter may have been other people. I really think this daughter is the one on the 1871 census as Peter Conroy's niece as if you look on freebmd Ann and Adam's daughter's birth fits in with this Mary.
However, Peter has been a puzzle in his relationship as Uncle to this Mary - on his marriage entry to Ann - her Father is Jacob Miller but his Father is John Conroy who was a distiller. My great x 3 Grandfather James, who was Ann's Father goes missing after 1851. I have wondered in the past if he might have gone back to Ireland and died there, or if he died using the family alias of Gilroy - there was one who died somewhere in Newcastle - or even if he might have become changed his name to John, far fetched as that might seem. I do think this Peter will be some connection but I don't know what this was as yet.
I wonder if your Alnwick friend also knows about the connection of Millers and Conroys with the Allen/Anderson family too?
I am not on Ancestry but I would be interested to see your tree if you have one on there. If you do have one I would likely be able to look at it next week when I can get to the library - I am just heading home from nightshift now.
That would be great if you ever find out anything about what became of my ancestor Ann after her marriage to Adam in Hexham.
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I have all the wives names for all the Adams, as far as I can tell the Adam we are concerned with was the one who married Ann, but I was looking on two sites last night and they do seem to drop off the map. My great aunt Ann Drummond was married to Thomas Anderson so I will have a walk up to my cousins on Monday as I have heard him talking about his older brother who used to knock around with the Conroy's of Newcastle in the 1960s. I will keep trying to get to the bottom about Adam and Ann, the name Adam has cursed me for five years now haha.
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Well, I must admit I am not very up to speed with whose who and what links there might have been by the 1960s. My forays into researching tends to be focussed on much earlier periods of time than that, I find this keeps me busy enough.
There seems to have been links forged between the Conroys, Millers, Drummonds, and Anderson/Allens in the Northumberland area, particularly around Morpeth between the 1840's to 1870s.
I have found that there is a grave stone at St Albans, Earsdon which has an inscription for, Michael, Sarah, Jacob and wife Jane Miller nee Anderson. There are some Campbells named too. I do not know how/why they came to be named/buried in this Miller grave. I think that is what so tantalising, sometimes frustrating about family history research is that the question very often outweigh the answers.
Anyway, I digress - if you have the names of the wives of all four Adam Drummond, could you let me know if there were two Ann Conroys amongst them?
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I have been through all the Adams again and have narrowed it down to two one born in 1836 who married ann, and one born in 1837 who was either born in eglingham or beanley who shows up on the census as living with his father well into his thirties, he married a lass named jane who was 20 years his junior. This Adam was the son of the other Adams uncle Thomas if that makes sense. There is one more who married a Joanna miller but he wasn't from my branch of the family.
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Hi Jack,
What information do you have for Ann Conroy after the date of the marriage, the details of which I have provided in the earlier post?
I would be very interested to know of any further children she and Adam had apart from Mary. Also do you know where she is in the census following on from marriage and when, where she died?
I would greatly appreciate hearing if you know more than I already know. It doesn't matter if you might not know anymore - it is just in post 8 you mentioned that you thought you had the names of their children.
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I thought I did, but sadly it was for another one of the Adams. Adam and Ann Conroy just seem to disappear for some reason.
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Given that this thread is from 2019 I don’t know if this info has been considered but I came across this 1861 census.
The family are residing in a lodging house at 152 Gilesgate, St Giles Durham.
Adam Allen, 25, (1836) born Earsdon Northumberland. Occupation Cooper.
Ann Allen, 27 (1834) born Chatton Northumberland. Lodgers wife.
Mary Allen, 7 (1854) born Morpeth Northumberland. Lodgers dau.
There’s also some Millers in this house, don’t know if they’re of interest:
William Miller, 25 (1836) born St Nicholas, Durham. Occupation blacksmith.
Elizabeth Miller, 20 (1841) born Newcastle Upon Tyne. Lodgers wife.
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Wow! Thank you very much! This has made my day, off as I am with covid. I do think this sounds like them. I think I would never have spotted this without your help. Although why they are masquerading as 'Allen' I just don't know. I think it all adds up though and this is really Adam and Ann Drummond nee Conroy. I wonder if they kept going under those false names?
Ann's brother Joseph Conroy married a Mary Allen at St Alban, Earsdon under the name of Gilroy. The newspapers reported my ancestor James Conroy also went under the alias of Gilroy. He was charged with a crime in 1855 and tried along with a family going under the names of Anderson/Allen in March 1856. The Conroys had links with Millers too. Thomas Conroy son of my ancestor James and brother of my Great Grandfather Simon, married an Isabella Miller who was daughter of Jacob and Jane Miller nee Anderson. These latter two have a memorial gravestone at St Alban, Eardon.
By the way, I believe their daughter Mary 'Allen' you mention in 1861 census is living with a Peter & Ann Conroy in 1871 in Bedlington as their 'niece' back under the name of Mary Drummond.
I have no doubt that above was Ann nee Miller. Their marriage entry records she was daughter of Jacob Miller and Peter's Father was down as John Conroy a distiller. I have never worked out the connection with Peter but I suspect there is one with my Conroy ancestors.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/272075131/margaret-ann-conroy
As a slight aside, might you know who this person might be - Margaret Conroy - that I have recently added to Find A Grave? This was of interest when I came across her as I think this was also the address of an Elizabeth Gilboy/Rose/Taylor nee Conroy who was the daughter of Edward Conroy who was the brother of my 2 x Great Grandfather James. However, I believe her sister Margaret married a McCarthy as I recall so wonder who this spinster Margaret might be? I believe this was also the later address for Elizabeth's son Edward Gilboy. The latter is buried at Preston Cemetery, North Shields.
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Glad to have helped! I hope you feel better soon :)
I don’t know why they changed their surnames either, this family certainly made a habit of it. Adam & Ann don’t seem to have anymore children under that alias, and I can’t find any matching death records. But then again I still haven’t checked marriages.
Strangely enough Joseph Conroy (my great x3 grandfather through his eldest dau Ellen Rooney) doesn’t seem to have gone by an alias after his marriage to Mary Ann. All his children & censuses were registered under Conroy, which has made them easier to trace. Mary Ann Allen‘s grandfather was also a hawker; John Allen from Longframlington.
Regarding Margaret Conroy, I don’t directly know who she is but I think I do remember one somewhere. I’ll have a look.
Edit: Adam might’ve had the alias Allan as it seems his mother maiden name was that (too many Allan’s! ::))
Adam Drummond bap 3 Oct 1836 Earsdon, son of Andrew Drummond basket maker and Mary
Then on familysearch is his sisters baptism:
Eve Drummond bap 2 Feb 1839 Earsdon, dau of Andrew Drummond and Mary Allen
DRUMMOND FEMALE
Tynemouth Dec 1838
25 377
1861 Census, Whitley, Tynemouth
Andrew Drummond, 51, born Scotland or Northumberland, cooper
Mary Drummond, 57, hawker
Robert Drummond, son, 30, carter, unm
Andrew Drummond, son, 21, general labourer, married
Ann Drummond, dau in law, 19, married
Ann Drummond, dau, 15
Jane Drummond, dau, 11
DRUMMOND, ANN ALLEN
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in ROTHBURY UNION Volume 25 Page 377
DRUMMOND, JANE ALLAN
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in TYNEMOUTH UNION Volume 25 Page 505
DRUMMOND, THOMAS ALLAN
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in BERWICK UPON TWEED UNION Volume 25 Page 28 (??)
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I am very grateful that you found them via their aliases in 1861. I feel that is a great help and may help find them in future. I hadn't thought of looking for Ann under the name of Allen. As I say, your find made my day today. :D
When I think of it in 1861 they weren't actually married yet, so at that point they were still really Drummond and Conroy with their then illegitimate daughter, Mary. Although, I suppose Allen could be considered as his name also, as you have found this to have also been his Mother's maiden name. So perhaps not a total deception?
I think our ancestors are a tricky lot to figure out at times because of aliases and using the same names in families over and again. One thing I have found is that they tended to follow each other about.
Incidentally, have you had your dna done? I have and have matched with some descendants of your Joseph's side. I believe our joint ancestors are James Conroy and Mary Molloy.
By the way, I made a mistake linking the Margaret Ann Conroy address in burial entry - 7 Front Street with Elizabeth Gilboy/Rose/Taylor nee Conroy and son Edward Gilboy. Their address I was thinking of was 37 Front Street, Chirton.
I still think Margaret could be relevant somewhere. I hope one of these days to get back to the archives, - don't know when that might be possible but when I do I might look for her workhouse entrance to see if there was any info about a next of kin.
Thank you for your help today, this has felt like a gift, :-* more so especially as I am stuck indoors with covid.
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I’ve tried locating them anywhere else but unfortunately can’t find them yet. Maybe they’re not ready to be found. Adam’s father Andrew seems to be missing from the 1871 census (mother Mary died 1869?) so I don’t know if that could indicate Adam & Ann were living with them too? If they are all missing.
They do always seem to be linked about! Which is great but also confusing when there’s a connection but no indication how ::)
Do you know what became of Mary Drummond? Did she marry? Or disappear like her parents ;D
Unfortunately I haven’t gotten round to DNA, but something I’m considering in the future. Would be a mighty help.
The closest Margaret Ann Conroy to the one on FindAGrave I could find was born in 1875 in Newcastle MMN Loughlan. Her father named Michael. Not 100% sure thought as she disappears after 1901. Although there are no marriage records 1901-11 to indicate she married (which FindAGrave Margaret didn’t do).
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I'm afraid I haven't been able to find Mary Drummond as yet after she appears as the niece of Peter and Ann Conroy (formerly McBride/MacBride nee Miller) in Bedlington.
I have wondered if Peter was a brother of your Joseph and my James but the marriage entry giving his Father as John Conroy throws a bit of a spanner on that line of thought. I know Peter and Ann's daughter Bridget became a Bridget Gilboy and a person of this name Bridget Gilboy appears as a Godparent on a baptism entry for one of your Joseph's children or Grandchildren as I recall. I can't remember exactly who off the top of my head.
It can be a job and a half trying to link them all up but it's fun. :D
I'll let you know if I come across any more leads and hopefully you will let me know if you find out any more too.
Added re the baptism it was your Ellen Rooney's niece, daughter of brother Edward:
Margaret Theresa Conroy born 16 January 1900 bapt at St Robert Morpeth 28 March. Her sponsors were James Conroy and Bridget Gilboy.
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I’d thought perhaps Peter Conroy was a brother too, but him being allegedly born in Ireland (censuses) whilst the rest were in Northumberland threw me off a bit. Then again censuses are never 100% accurate.
I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this before but I just stumbled across this as a possibility for Margaret Conroy. Since I recall up in the thread that Margaret couldn’t be traced.
Name Margaret Conroy or Young
Occupation -
Residence Tramp
Year Jailed 1874
Age 36
Estimated Birth Year 1838
Birthplace Morpeth
Sex F
Prison Dumfries
County Dumfriesshire
NRS Reference HH21/49/4 p. 84
https://www.scottishindexes.com/prisontranscript.aspx?prisonid=490408425
Don’t know if the article below is why she was jailed (wouldn’t make sense given it was her husband who attacked her) but definitely the same person.
Margaret Conroy & John Young
Married 18 Sep 1871
Peebles, Peeblesshire
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Some feel the Young clan evolved from the Boswells, they certainly swapped names, so they might be found under Boswell or Boss.
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That is a very good find. Perhaps that may be Margaret who goes missing.
I had a birth date for James and Mary Conroy nee Malloy's daughter Margaret 2 Nov 1837 in a baptism record but there was no baptism date. Also I recall it was confusing whether the record was from Colwell & Swinburne or St Francis Xavier, Cheeseburn Grange. I found this entry in my early days of researching at Northumberland archives.
I can't spot a marriage for a Margaret Conroy and a John Young on Freebmd but perhaps they married in Scotland.
I remember there were some articles about a Margaret Conroy (petty criminal it would seem) around the Pandon Bank area of Newcastle.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/249868175/james-gilroy
It could be interesting to note that there was a James Gilroy of Pandon Bank buried in All Saints Churchyard, 2 Dec 1851 Newcastle. Apparently from an inquest report he dropped down dead and cause was found as an 'Act of God'. I have floated the idea that this might be really James Conroy who had been husband of Mary?
An Ann Drummond married at All Saints Church, Newcastle in the Dec quarter 1864.
When I get back to the archives eventually I would like to look this up just in case this might be Ann nee Conroy marrying again rapidly after a marriage to Adam.
All just conjecture at the moment.
Re Peter Conroy down as from Ireland, my James Conroy born circa 1830 is also down as having been born in Ireland in most census.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/668c2a33865574184d12c140?locale=en
I think there was a previous Joseph Conroy to your Joseph. There is an Alnwick baptism for him which gives birth date of 12 July 1836. Son of James & Mary Conroy 'of Monaghan'. My own DNA test links me to Monaghan.
I believe there is a likely burial record for him at the Church at Hartburn which describes him as a child of a poor Irish Traveller.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=842043.msg7085186#msg7085186
By the way, at the mention of your finds on Conroy/Young have you seen this thread? Again, bamboozling but I wonder if there might be any linking somewhere with our Conroys?
Thanks for that info, Talacharn.
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https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/272341244/andrew-drummond
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/272341324/mary_drummond
Just an update, - I believe I have found the burial entries for Andrew and Mary Drummond mentioned by mulberry-rose. They were both buried at Preston Cemetery, North Shields.
Thanks so much for all your info on this thread mulberry -rose, I really do appreciate it. :)
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Sorry for seemingly disappearing for a little bit, went on holiday for a few weeks!
I managed to get a hold of John & Margaret’s marriage, it seems John mostly went under the alias Murphy for censuses but Young for his marriage.
18 Sep 1871 at Peebles
John Young, shoemaker, single, aged 29. Parents John Young (labourer) and Margaret Wilson
Margaret Conroy, single, hawker, aged 33. Parents James Conroy (labourer, deceased) and Mary Lyall. Both abodes Eastgate Peebles.
Witnesses Thomas H & John Gilchrist
Frustrating that the maiden name doesn’t match so can’t be 100% it’s her but it is close. Mary’s maiden name was Malloy wasn’t it?
Also found the 1871 census for them; (Green Pit House, High Tarrenton, Bellingham)
Thomas Barret, 52, head
Dorothy Barret, 55, wife
Dorothy Barret, 10, dau
John Young, 29, lodger. Born Scotland. Shoemaker out of employment.
Margaret Young, 33, lodger. Born Morpeth, shoemakers wife.
I’m glad you found where Andrew & Mary Drummond are buried, at least that’s them accounted for ;D
I found these on ancestry;
Ann Drummond
Trial Date: 6 Jan 1864
Larceny from person
Ann Conroy (Hexham)
Trial Date: 29 Jun 1853
3 months imprisonment - larceny
Adam Drummond (Hexham)
Trial Date: 29 Jun 1853
3 months imprisonment - larceny
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That’s quite the interesting death for James Gilroy! If the marriage to John Young is Margaret then it would at least mean James died before 1871.
I also saw that 1864 marriage, I don’t think there was any parish record available on ancestry/findmypast to see who her father was.
Speaking of Joseph Conroy’s (the second one), I was never able to find out where he was buried, neither Mary Ann Allen. Since he died in Scotland Gate I thought maybe it was Choppington parish. I always thought since Mary died in Morpeth that she was buried at St Mary. I know some of their children; Mark & Mary were buried in Netherton Lane Cemetery in Bedlington. Same with a few of Peter Conroy’s children.
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Thank you for all you have found out, Mulberry Rose.
Yes, it is frustrating that Margaret's Mother's maiden name doesn't match as Malloy. So we can't be sure 100% sure, as you say that this is her.
However, my own paternal Grandmother first appeared in a census under her step-Father's surname (her Father died when she was two) and when she had children, her eldest my Aunt shows with the mmn of that of step father. However, my Father and other children had mmn which corresponds with name of her birth Father.
Admittedly, I don't know much about the early life of our mutual ancestor Mary Malloy, who may or may not have also been Lyall, for all we know.
Hopefully, more will transpire as time goes on and we might discover more.
That is a shame that no one seems to know where Joseph's resting place is. As you say, Mary may be at St Mary, Morpeth. Hopefully, one day their burial places will be confirmed.
I am appreciative of your help and thoughts - how good it is to have imput from a mutual descendant of James and Mary Conroy nee Malloy. :)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/272787932/isabella-conroy-winsley
Incidentally, I have recently come across an interesting child burial at Preston cemetery North Shields for a child called Isabella Conroy Winsley burial date 19 Oct 1900.
I have looked for a mmn but there doesn't appear to be a match on GRO.
I do wonder if she may be connected somehow to one of our ancestors and wonder if you may have come across this child before?
I know that in 1901 my Great Grandfather Simon Peter Conroy was living in North Shields with an Elizabeth as his wife (my ancestor Bridget who was his first wife died in childbirth in 1892) but I have never been able to find a marriage for them. He did later go on to marry an Elizabeth at St Charles RC Church in Gosforth but these two Elizabeth's appear to have been different people.
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I do hope one day we can find where Mary originated from, it would certainly help to connect all the other elusive Conroy’s, Peter, etc. :)
Also, I possibly stumbled across another Conroy brother through newspaper articles; Patrick Conroy. Whether accurate I can’t tell— haven’t been able to trace him yet. I wish they had named his wife.
https://imgur.com/a/JugHnzz
It appears Isabella is the daughter of John Conroy Winsley & Mary Emma Kemp. She died 19 Oct 1900 at 106 Howard Street, Tynemouth. In the 1901 census John C appears in North Shields with wife Mary E Winsley. John Conroy Winsley is born in 1872 at Hexham according to the census. Mary E is born in 1877 at Kenton.
In the 1911 census they’re living at 26 Brock Street, Byker
John Conroy (transcribed Convoy) aged 41, born Hexham
Mary Emma Convoy, aged 34, born Kenton. 2 children, 1 alive. Married ten years.
John George Conroy, aged 7, born Consett Durham
Separately, I remember noting down a couple; James Conroy & Mary Winsley who had three children; Mary Jane (1866), Peter (1868), and John (1872). They married in 1864 at Hexham, with James Conroy having the alias Gilroy and being the son of Thomas Conroy/Gilroy. I do not know if John C Winsley is their John, as he appears in the 1911 census with his mother Mary, unmarried and no children.
(A very helpful FreeReg postem)
St Mary's Chapel Hexham (Roman Catholic) 26 December 1864 James Gilroy 23 Bachelor, Labourer, Hexham, father Thomas Gilroy, Labourer married Mary Winsley, 20 Spinster [- for residence], father Bernard Winsley, Labourer, both made their mark
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Yes, I too have seen that article re 'Pat' in the past. I did wonder if the reporter was just being a bit sarcastic calling this person 'Pat' perhaps as some might refer to any Irish man as 'Paddy'.
I have also wondered if this may have been James brother in law Adam Drummond (although likely not Irish) rather than a brother? No evidence to support any of this though. Yes, it is a shame they didn't name the wife which may have been helpful.
That is very interesting regarding all you have discovered about the Conroy/Winsleys. I can't help wonder if there is a connection to our lot. I will make notes for future investigation at some point. Many thanks for your posting on all this.
My Great Grandfather Simon Peter Conroy (son of James & Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick and Grandson of James and Mary Conroy nee Malloy) had an older brother called Joseph (didn't they tend to use the same names over). This Joseph was born 20 January 1849 and was baptised at St Robert Morpeth on 11 Feb 1849 and his 'sponsors' were recorded as Thomas Conroy and Elizabeth Conroy.
So I do wonder if James and Mary nee Malloy may have had another son called Thomas and he was the sponsor? Perhaps he may be the 'Pat' mentioned in the article? This is just conjecture though as I don't know what relationship or connection there may have been between this Thomas on the baptism entry to my ancestors James and Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick. The latter had other children who were baptised in Hexham - Thomas, Catherine and Elizabeth. Sadly these two girls died as infants.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/271566353/john-rooney
Incidentally, I also recently added this John Rooney to Preston cemetery. This person may be no connection to your Rooneys but I thought I would mention just in case.
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River Tyne Lass
I wonder if the Thomas Conroy mentioned in your Joseph (1849)’s baptism as well as being the possible son of James/Mary Malloy is also the father of James who married Mary Winsley. The latter James was born about 1846—so near in age to what could be his hypothetical cousins. And the alias Gilroy to boot. I remember an article about an Elizabeth Conroy somewhere—will have to look for it again. Perhaps this is where the namesake Thomas comes from for some Conroys. Very sad about the infants Elizabeth & Catherine. I know my Joseph Conroy had three die as young children.
Censuses have Adam Drummond as born & baptised in Earsdon.
The article does seem to have that sarcastic tone, especially in “the disappearance of his better half” etc. And none of the Patrick Conroy’s seem to match up in age; 1820s-1830s.
Thank you for the findagrave memorial. I don’t think this John Rooney is connected to me unfortunately as my greatx3 grandfather John Rooney was the only Rooney of his family to come down to Northumberland (he was born Glasgow). His parents Bernard & Margaret died when he was young, and his siblings Ellen, Bridget and Edward remained in Scotland. I have traced his other grandchildren, thankfully they’re more easy to trace than the elusive Conroy. ;D Interestingly John Rooney was the informant on Joseph Conroy’s death record in 1890.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/263823873/john-rooney
Intrestingly one of the Rooney memorials you have on findagrave is actually connected to mine; https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/234007589/mary_mulley_cassidy she is the daughter in law of John Rooney
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Hi Mulberry Rose,
I have just finished work not long since so just catching up now.
Yes, I wonder too if the mentioned Thomas could be another son of James and Mary and a brother to your Joseph and my James.
Perhaps later this week I could add this Conroy/Winsley line to my tree and see if any matches turn up from their descendants.
Re the mentioned 'Pat' in the article, - from other articles I have come across I think there was an undercurrent of prejudice against these ancestors. So I can imagine it may not have been past people to lump them altogether as Irish navvies. Although Adam was from Earsdon perhaps he may have been the assumed brother. Adam and Ann seemed close by. And their daughter was baptised in the same RC Church St Francis Xavier as James and Elizabeth's children James and John. Or the 'Pat' may have been a real unknown brother. We may never know.
Re: the Find a Grave memorial I have up which is connected to your line, if you are on there and wish me to transfer this to you just let me know and I will. I am happy either way. :)
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Another late response, apologies :)
With the Winsley lot I wasn’t able to trace back John or Peter Conroy, as not 100% on the match of John C Winsley. Although Peter seems to have died by the 1911 census as his mother Mary has “3 children 1 deceased”. I think Mary Jane married someone with the surname Denny.
I wonder if it could be possible that the “Pat” in the article is Peter Conroy (married Ann Miller)? I’ve quite a few ancestors where Peter/Patrick are interchangeable.
Also I’ve been digging into trying to find Margaret Conroy again. Interestingly I noticed these two were the neighbours of James Conroy at Gilligate in 1861.
Joseph Watson, head, 22, born Scotland, tinsmith
Margaret Watson, wife, 23, born Morpeth Northumberland
These two have a daughter, Mary, baptised Apr 1867 at Corsenside, father a “tramp”. Sadly she died aged 3wks. An article about her death iniquity mentions a witness Charles McBride (the brother of the Daniel McBride that married Ann Miller.). Unfortunately no birth record for Mary to find MMN.
There’s also a marriage which I can’t confirm to be connected to them but worth a look;
Joseph Watson & Margaret Conway Jun 1858, Newcastle on Tyne, 10b 173. They have a daughter Mary on 30 Sep 1861, baptised at Newcastle, fathers occupation shoemaker/journeyman.
I wonder if Joseph Watson is connected to the William Watson that married Mary Conroy in 1864, Hexham. That William Watson (b. Brampton 1844?), although the marriage record has his father as John, appears to be the son of James, a tinsmith born in Scotland.
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Wow, that is some very interesting stuff you have found! You are good at noticing things - I hadn't spotted that Margaret before. She may be Margaret Conroy under an incorrect spelling. The page number is low for their marriage so I suspect they married at a Church.
https://one-name.org/marriage-locator/
Marriage Locator can't suggest a specific place only that it appears between St Peter and the RO. I will make a note of this and when I am next able to get to the archives, whenever that might be, I think I will check out St Peter for them.
By the way, this is a long shot but as you are good at spotting things, if you ever come across any likely death (or remarriage even) for my 2 x Great Grandmother Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick - I would appreciate it you would kindly let me know?
I believe I found the last sighting of her in the Tynemouth Workhouse Admissions/Discharges:
Elizabeth was admitted to Tynemouth Workhouse/Hospital on 10 July 1900. Widow of James. RC religion. Age 76. Nearest relative Son Thomas Conroy of New York Village. She was then discharged on 17 July 1900.
After this she seemingly disappears!
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I’ll keep my eye out for Elizabeth! She really does seem to have disappeared… ???
I may have had a breakthrough with Margaret Conroy, or at least a theory for what happened in her later years.
Margarita Conroy & Robertum Hannah married 27 May 1895 at Bellingham. Margarita dau of Jacobi & Maria Conroy. Robertum son of Thomas & Joanna Hannah.
(In FreeBMD under Robert Hannay & Margaret Conroy, Jun Qtr 1895)
Robert Hannah / Hannay possibly dies Sep Qtr 1895 at Morpeth aged 55. Buried 27 Sep 1895 in Morpeth Parish, residence being the Workhouse.
(Possible baptism for Robert; 13 Apr 1843 at Morpeth son of Thos & Jane)
1891 Census (??)
Wooler, Chapel Lane
Robert Hannah, 50, lodger, born Morpeth
Margaret Hannah, 53, lodger, born Morpeth
1901 Census
Glanton, Alnwick
Peter Buchanan, 66, born Ireland
Jane Buchanan, 59, born Longhorsley
Margaret Hannah, 63, born Morpeth, boarder
1911 Census
Lumsdens Lane, Morpeth (some Conroy relations did live here in 1901, interestingly)
Ellen McCarthy, 62, widow, born Longhorsley
Margaret Hannah, 73, widow (married 30), vistor, hawker, born Morpeth
Margaret Hannah died Dec Qtr 1923, aged 83, 10b 430
Margarita Hanna buried 17 Nov 1923, Morpeth Northumberland. Birth yr 1840
The informant on Margaret’s death record (1923) is a Margaret Robinson of 1 Oak Lane Morpeth, listed as niece. Edward Conroy (1843) has a daughter named Margaret born 1872 who seems marry a Henry Robinson at Morpeth in 1917.
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Thank you so much Mulberry Rose! I think you have nailed it with your research and that it sounds like this surely must be the Margaret who was the sister of your Joseph and my James. I tend to believe this theory of yours about what happened. I do very appreciate all you have found. You are so good at this stuff! :)
Re: Elizabeth it certainly does seem like she has disappeared. I have wondered if she may have used an alias? There is a Jane Conroy of roughly her age who died in a workhouse registered in the Alnwick area in 1909. Could this be her with an alias. I would certainly appreciate it if you would keep a look out for her. You would think in her old age she might have wanted to stay near her adult children who had not emigrated. I know daughter Mary and son Thomas are buried in Preston Cemetery, North Shields and her son Simon Peter (my Grt Grandfather) is buried at Ashburton RC Cemetery, in Gosforth. Hopefully, she will turn up one of these days.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=801204.msg6591532#msg6591532 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=801204.msg6591532#msg6591532)
Actually, it's a bit confusing when I think back, when you see above thread (see post 7) it looks like Margaret (daughter of Edward) marries Ralph Stephenson. I think I recall that she then married a John McCarthy after Ralph...
Mind, it can all be a bit bamboozling with all the similar names.
Just to add that when Edward's wife Mary (nee Martin) died I think I recall seeing a notice somewhere that death had occurred at her daughter Margaret McCarthy's house?
.. I think it is past my bedtime, penny has just dropped with me that Henry E Robinson married Margaret McCarthy in 1917. ;D
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(A late response ::))
River Tyne Lass
Thank you! I’ve very glad to have gotten that breakthrough with Margaret. 1921 census has her at 2 Union Street, Morpeth. Place of birth as Benridge—probably one of the farms north of Mitford since 1851 census puts her born as “Milford”.
I am wondering the same about this Jane Conroy…she only appears in the 1901 census (at Alnwick workhouse) and before that there’s no sign of her. If I recall there were some Conroy’s that moved up to Alnwick / Berwick so although not directly there would be family there.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=842043.msg7085186#msg7085186
By the way, at the mention of your finds on Conroy/Young have you seen this thread? Again, bamboozling but I wonder if there might be any linking somewhere with our Conroys?
To go back to this quickly, there is a link between our Conroy’s and the Conroy/Stewart’s in Berwick which I found. But can’t think off of the top of my head right now about how. I think it was through a child of John Conroy b. abt 1830 (married a Mary)
I wish I could remember! This is very frustrating…
Aha!
Joannes Stewart & Mariamus Conroy marry 1 Feb 1901 at Alnwick. Parents Jacobi Stewart and Joannes Conroy.
Mary is the second youngest daughter of John Conroy b. 1820-30.
John Conroy son Edward (born 1861) also married a Helen/Ellen Stewart on 22 Feb 1901. Parents Jacobi Stewart & Joannes Conroy. So perhaps some sort of joined marriage?
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Thanks for this Mulberry Rose .. all these Conroys and their connections can be bamboozling at times. I will have to go over it all. I remember seeing in the marriage entry for Peter Conroy who married (Ann Mackbride) nee Miller that his Father was recorded as John - Distiller. I wonder if Peter is connected to those people?
Thank you so much again for all you find out, I really appreciate all you have discovered.
I have an update too - a very kind man I know has looked up and sent Jane Conroy's burial entry:
Alnwick Cemetery
Entry 1849
Jane Conroy
Widow
Age 79
Union Workhouse, Alnwick
Burial 22 April 1909
It is a shame the entry doesn't record whose widow she was. It is a shame the workhouse records don't exist as there may have been a next of kin recorded in the admittance.
Also the burial entry for our mutual bloodline ancestor Mary Conroy (nee Malloy):
St Mary the Virgin, Morpeth
Entry 503
Mary Conroy
Morpeth
Feb 23 1879
Age 78
Her death is recorded in St Robert, RC Church death entry too - date of death 21 Feb 1879.
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River Tyne Lass
Peter is still an enigma! The fact his father is listed as John throws everything off. ;D Where did you get the marriage? I’ve tried to look on FreeBMD but have never found it. Was he using an alias?
That is frustrating that Jane’s husband is not mentioned, nor that the workhouse records exist.
I do have some (very) tentative connection for John Conroy as the son of James Conroy & Mary Malloy.
I don’t know if I mentioned this but I recently purchased the GRO record for Mary Malloy, and the informant of her death is an Edward Conroy of Oldgate Street in Morpeth, listed as her grandson.
Going by process of elimination on the Edward’s; ( ;D)
- Joseph Conroy - son Edward born 1867
- James Conroy - son Edward born 1869
- Edward Conroy - son Edward born 1874
Are all too young to have registered the death. (And Peter Conroy did not have a son called Edward). That leaves John’s son Edward, born 1861 who would’ve been 18.
(…Unless of course, there is an extra son to James Conroy and Mary Malloy who had an Edward)
Edward Conroy b. 1861 has a military record, enlisting in 1880 (service number 2664) which lists his intended residence as “Halgate Street, Morpeth”. Which I think refers to Hillgate. ???
https://imgur.com/a/dvDWaqr (Mary’s death record)
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I found the marriage at the archives. It was a good while back now but I think I saw it both at Tyne and Wear Archives and Woodhorn. I noted down the info and later I added this as a postem on freebmd - see:
Peter Conroy & Ann Mackbride
Sept quarter 1874 Vol 10b 298
They married at St Mary the Virgin, Horton. I agree it does throw a spanner in the works that his Father was recorded as John and as a distiller.
I do wonder too if James and Mary had another son. Or did Margaret have an illegitimate son even? Or did Ann ditch being a Drummond and revert back to Conroy and have an illegitimate child named Edward? I haven't come across any more Drummond named children for her after her daughter Mary. I tend to believe it is this Ann's daughter Mary, who shows up on the 1871 census with Peter and Ann and who is recorded as niece.
Hopefully, one day something might turn up to make it all a bit clearer.
Thanks for posting the death cert for Mary. It is very kind of you to share this info. :)
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Thank you for the marriage! No wonder I couldn’t find it, I spelt it as MacBride ::)
I do wonder about the possibility of other children, maybe older.
Something intriguing that popped up when I purchased Margaret’s GRO record. James Conroy’s mentioned at living at Gateshead.
Her birth is at Benridge, north of Mitford, like the 1921 census of Margaret Hannah/y so I’m now certain that is her. Her birthdate is 30th Oct instead of 2 Nov here, though.
I believe that Mary Drummond living with Peter is Ann’s daughter too. Still not sure how they link together. And that same census has mention of a Barney Trainor born Spennymoor, “cousin”. :-\
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Wow! Mulberry Rose, that is very interesting about James recorded at Gateshead. They did get about didn't they? ;) Did it mention her Mother Mary at a different place? How strange that baptism was in Northumberland but Father is at Gateshead.
I presume this is a birth record you are talking about for Margaret. I could be that 2 Nov may have been baptism date.
Yes, that is very puzzling about this Barney Trainor being named as a cousin. I haven't a clue how he might tie in yet, either.
I greatly appreciate your help and if there is anything I can check out for you at the Local Studies in North Shields - do not hesistate to ask! By the way I have seen your 'Leightley' thread. I think it might be worth mentioning that I have added some Leightleys to St Alban, Earsdon on Find A Grave. It might be worth having a look just in case these might tie in somewhere with the extended family of the people you are researching.
Merry Christmas and Thanks so much for all your imput. :)
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Yes the birth record I’m referring to is Margaret Conroy, should’ve clarified ;D
The birth was only registered three days later (3rd Nov) so definitely possible that Mary was at Mitford whilst James was at Gateshead. Perhaps he had work there.
Another sleuthing I did on Ann Conroy (I can’t help myself!) I remember that she was baptised in Chatton Anglican but this may be the RC baptism;
Anna Conory born 1 Feb 1834 bap 14 Mar 1834. Parents Jacobi Conory and Maria Maloy (transcribed as Matoy). Haggerston Castle RC, Ancroft. Sponsor Maria Brown.
Thank you very much for the kind offer! I remember you mentioning an about Ellen Rooney receiving relief at Tynemouth Workhouse abt 1910-1915–when you have the time would it be possible for you to check these? And if there are mentions of other Rooneys too, or a Grace Tweddle. Unfortunately I’ve never had the chance to go to the local studies.
I‘ll make sure to check out the Leightleys, high chance they are connected to my branch. Not many of them.
Merry Christmas to you too :)
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River Tyne Lass
Very excited!!! Just found this! ;D
John Conarry bap 14 Aug 1831 at Morpeth son of Jas and Mary Conarry
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Also got my hands on the GRO record for Jane Conroy of Alnwick Workhouse hoping that her husband might be named. She died 19 Apr 1909. Unfortunately the only information is “widow of — Conroy, a pedlar formerly of Morpeth”
There is this baptism in Morpeth; Mary Conroy bap 15 Jun 1862 dau of James and Jane
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Wow! You are amazing Mulberry Rose, with all you have found out! :D Many thanks for all of this.
So there was another son to James and Mary - a John! He must be close in age to my James who was born around 1830 usually recorded as having been in Ireland. Obviously, this John won't be Peter's Father as Peter also seems to have been born in the 1830s. Re Peter I suppose there might be a possibility that whoever got his Father's first name mixed up and it should have been James and not John. This could be a possibility if Mary Drummond really is Peter's niece as recorded in the census.
There often seems to have been confusion over names back in the day. A while back I added a James Gilroy (Nov 1851) to All Saints Churchyard, Newcastle on Find a Grave. His inquest article recorded him as a James or John and death was declared 'an act of God'. His age is a bit younger but possibly this person may have been our mutual James Conroy.
But I think Mary and Joseph were in Northumberland in the 1820s as there are Alnwick baptisms for a Catherine and Joseph.
I don't know what became of Catherine but Joseph appears to have been buried at Hartburn early on. Our mutual ancestors certainly got around!
That is amazing too that you have found another baptism for Ann. I ave come across this type of thing before where RC parents will have baptisms carried out at both Anglican and RC churches.
It was so kind of you to check things out further re Jane.
Yes, I will look out for your Ellen Rooney for you in the relief lists. I will get you dates and sums paid. There is literally nothing else mentioned in the lists apart from this asides from that she was recorded at 'Morpeth'. I will also look for Grace Tweddle - do you think she might be in the relief lists too?
This week is going to be hectic and I will be away for Christmas so I may not be able to get back till the North Shields local studies until the New Year but I hope to check things then. Also, check Preston Cemetery too for Leightleys - I know I have added some on FaG too.
I hope you have a wonderful Christmas. :)
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I couldn’t believe it when I saw it! I believe this is the same John Conroy that was with Mary Robson, he became a chimney sweep. They lived Morpeth 1861, then Alnwick 1871. His place of birth was Gateshead according to 1851/61 census.
I’ll have to check about that James Gilroy’s death. It does make me think that James might’ve used the name John too. Presumably they were in Northumberland by 1826 as Catherine was baptised there. I wonder why they came to Northumberland. ???
Yes, Grace Tweddle (1866-1957) may have received relief, at least in my g-gmothers early years to provide for her. Patrick Green’s wages went to Ellen Rooney for his stepchildren Ellen & James Docherty-he didn’t include his daughter as a dependent. Grace’s husband George died so her sons Andrew (1897) & George Jr. (1901) provided income. They lived at Bedlington Bank Top; addresses I have are Wood Row, Craggs Buildings and Bridge End The Furnace (if specifics are needed). I really appreciate you checking this, it’s very kind :)
Regarding Leightley’s, I don’t think any of them are mine but I did come across some info for others whilst researching, so I’ll make sure to add that.
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Hi Mulberry Rose,
This is just a quick catch up to let you know that I was able to pop in briefly to the Local Studies at one point this week and had a quick look at the relief lists. I think it does look like Grace did get relief as I have noted down a ‘Grace Tweddell’ found in the lists. I will double check next time that I have noted the correct surname as I see you have the name as Tweddle.
There are a lot of volumes but I will be happy to work through them systematically starting in the new year to check out the dates wherein Ellen and Grace are mentioned.
Under these ‘Non-Resident Relief’ lists is the paragraph:
‘In accordance with the requirements of Art. III (2) of the Relief Regulation Order, 1911, the Clerk submitted the following Statement as to the relief granted since the last Meeting of the Guardians to persons who though not resident within the Union, were removable thereto, viz:-‘
Just from two random Board meetings, I found that on 9 May 1912 Grace was granted 3s for 14 weeks
and Ellen was granted 5 s for 14 weeks. Then on 14 Aug 1912 Grace was again granted 3s for 14 weeks and Ellen was again granted more at a sum of 5s for 14 weeks.
I wonder what that means exactly? That they were 'removable thereto'? Both were listed as under Morpeth. So I am curious as to why Morpeth Workhouse didn't assume responsibility.
Also regarding Barney Trainor - recorded as cousin, I have recalled seeing another mention of a Trainor/Trainer in the past which I have found puzzling. A good while back I came across an Annie Trainer mentioned in the Morpeth Herald 2 January 1914. Robert Conroy was recorded as her nephew. I remember trying to check things out a while back and although I do not recall my working out from that time, I came to the conclusion at that time that this Annie had been a McBride/MacBride.
This is another puzzling thing how these people seem to link themselves with the Conroys too. I think there is a census too where this Annie has a Margaret Conroy in her household. I think I recall her husband as a John Trainer.
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River Tyne Lass
Thank you so much for this, this is brilliant! :D I believe the Tweddle(s) went by both variants of this name, as I have Grace’s husband George going by the Tweddell spelling a few times. Very interesting regarding the money they received. Grace would’ve had four dependant children at this point, Ellen had two yet received more money. I wonder why this was. Maybe Ellen had to provide for grandchildren aswell? At this point wouldn’t surprise me—poor Ellen looked after all of them.
I’m not sure what ‘removable thereto’ means either. Perhaps easily removable from getting relief since they were non-residents of Morpeth?
It is puzzling. I know which Annie Trainer you mean, and did lookup on her. But for the life of me can’t remember what I found. Although if Annie was a Trainer through marriage then I don’t know if she would be connected to the Barney one. ??? I’ll go have another look. Trying to figure out who this Robert Conroy is aswell.
Thanks again for the board meetings info.
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I remember this Trainer lot now. ::) I’ve not been able to find anything for the niece, Ann, either.
1911 Census Madison St Cowpen
John Traynor, 54, head, Scotland
Ann Traynor, 52, wife, Benton Square (4 children, 1 dec)
John James Traynor, 18, son, Choppington
Edward Traynor, 15, son, Bilton Banks
Daniel McBride Traynor, 12, son, Bedlington
Ann Traynor, 16, niece, Newbiggin by the Sea
Given Daniel was born Bedlington I saw an article in the Morpeth Herald (12 Aug 1899) which I think is the same family. John Trainer accused of being drunk at Bebside Farm. A Mrs Clark was his defendant, his daughter. Makes me wonder if one of them was married prior
Hmm..
Ann McBride & John Maddison Qtr 2 1877, Tynemouth, 10b 244 (had John, Jacob & Georgina)
John Trainer & Ann Maddison Qtr 3 1891, Tynemouth, 10b, 395.
1881 Census Cummings St, Cowpen
John Maddison, 24, head, Seaton Sluice
Ann Maddison, 22, wife, Benton Square
John Maddison, 3, son, New Delaval
Jacob Maddison, 1, son, Waterloo
Georgina Maddison married a John Clark in 1899
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Hi again Mulberry Rose,
By the way when I look at the wording of non resident relief paragraph, I think it sounds like they were reporting on relief paid out in retrospect. So I think this implies not that were going to get paid said amounts but rather that was what they had been paid since the last board meeting. I think I got a bit confused about that at first.
I have managed to pop back to the Local Studies today. I started at the first volume 1911-12 but could see neither in the lists. The volumes show where they first seem to appear on the lists on the dates I have already mentioned. I got up to 12 March 1914 today. But from the dates I have mentioned previously Grace Tweddell does not appear any more up to this date. I will search more of the minutes next time I can go.
This is what I found for Ellen reported in these dated Board Meeting
24 Oct 1912 recorded as 5s per week for 14 weeks
16 January 1913 recorded 5s per week for 14 weeks
10 April 1913 … 5s .. 14 weeks
3 July 1913 .. 5s .. 12 weeks
25 Sept 1913 .. 5s ..12 weeks
18 Dec 1913 .. 5s .. 12 weeks
12 March 1914 .. 5s .. 4 weeks
This sounds like they might have been reviewing her case more regularly, perhaps? I wonder why Grace is absent? Had her situation improved, or might she have gone into the workhouse, or perhaps been refused relief?
By the way there is also a Georgina Weightman mentioned in the lists from Morpeth. I wonder if she might be known to you also, on the off chance?
You have asked if I will look out for other Rooneys and I will certainly do so.
I have found this this baby Ellen Rooney today who was buried at Preston Cemetery. I have added her on Find a Grave:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/277612192/ellen-rooney?createdMemorial=Yes
Entry 2982
Ellen Rooney
Age 10 months
Girl
Died at the Tynemouth Poor Law Institution
Burial 18 Nov 1921
Unconsecrated 2840 c
Mother's maiden name Rooney. I do not know if these baby may have any relevance to our ancestors but if not, I am think this might be helpful to someone else out there.
That is brilliant re all you have found out re these Traynors/McBride/Maddison. :) I think it seems like a lot to look at further in the New Year.
https://one-name.org/marriage-locator/
I see from Marriage Locator this 1877 marriage was at St Mary the Virgin, Horton – as was Peter and Ann’s ceremony.
I hope you have a wonderful Christmas. :)
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River Tyne Lass
Hope you had a nice Christmas, and best wishes for the New Year :)
Thanks for the response. I think all this old terminology can get confusing at times. Interesting that they’re not there prior to 1912. I would’ve thought Ellen would receive relief before that, as her husband John Rooney died May 1911. I think it’s likely Ellen was a repeated case given that she was responsible for grandchildren as well.
Regarding Grace, I’m not sure why she didn’t receive relief afterward 1912–maybe her two eldest sons were working then.
I’ve not come across a Georgina Weightman before. 1911 shows only one in Northumberland living at Hirst, husband Ralph missing. Ralph was done for embezzlement in 1906, probably the reason she was seeking relief.
I added some details to baby Ellen Rooney’s memorial. Unfortunately she’s not connected to mine, but seems to be the daughter of a Jane Rooney from Walker.
Also, regarding the Traynor/Trainer lot, I don’t think they were connected to Barney Trainer from Spennymoor, just a coincidence that Ann married one. John Traynor/Trainer was the son of Frank Trainer and Jane Farrel/Tarrel of Kirkcudbright.
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Hi Mulberry Rose,
I hope you have had a good Christmas and Happy New Year, too. :)
I have been able to move on to the next volume at the North Shields Local Studies, this week. – 1914-1915. No mention of Grace in this volume but Ellen continues in the lists of outdoor relief. This workhouse kept meticulous financial accounts and these seemed to have been presented at the Board of Guardians meetings. The dates continue showing at the dated meetings. Interesting that Ellen’s relief allowance decreases for a time.
Here are the entries for Ellen Rooney from Morpeth showing what she had received:
4 June 1914 – 2’ 6d per week for 12 weeks
27 Aug 1914 – 2’ 6d " for 12 weeks
19 Nov 1914 – 5s " for 4 weeks
14 January 1915 - " 5s for 4 weeks
11 Feb 1915 – 5s " for 12 weeks
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/249868175/james-gilroy
By the way, I have updated the Find A Grave memorial I have up for James Gilroy at All Saints Churchyard in Newcastle to show what was recorded in his newspaper death notice and inquest account.
You will notice in the death notice he is recorded as James and in the inquest report he is John Gilroy. It seems that he had got up one morning and gone into a pub at 8 o’clock. I presume they were referring to the morning rather than the evening. Were pubs open at that time in the morning, I wonder if he had gone in not to drink but perhaps because of his work? I am wondering if there may be a small possibility that he may have gone in because of work. Could he have been working in the distillery trade at this point? I am still mulling on the idea that he may have been Peter Conroy’s Father going under the name of John, perhaps? The only thing is this James who died at Pandon Bank (who I think may possibly have been our mutual blood line ancestor James Conroy) shows his age a bit out. ??? I suppose though they weren't always accurate with ages back in the day.
Thanks for your thoughts re the Trainers/Traynors. My head is spinning regarding that lot just now. But definitely something to look further into at some point in the future I think, to see how everything could fit. ???
I have added a few more Rooneys to Preston Cemetery - again, don't worry if these are not connected to you - they may well be useful to someone out there. These latest additions have included Margaret Frances Rooney 1907; Annie Rooney 1910 and Francis Rooney 1912.
I hope to check the Relief lists again at the Local Studies when I can next go, I will keep you posted re what is found. :)
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Hi River Tyne Lass,
Happy new year ;D
I really appreciate you getting all these details about the relief for me. Definitely an interesting time period that Ellen’s amount decreased. Margaret Rooney didn’t tie till 16th March 1914, so maybe that’s why the March order is the same. After she died her children (Ellen & James) would’ve gone into Ellen’s care. I was told Patrick Green gave some money to Ellen, so perhaps this is evidence of that. If he supported her for a little while, then the relief received would be less? Guess we’ll never know for sure.
I have been wondering about this James Gilroy, especially about the info about him lodging at Pandon Street. Given he was in Gateshead in 1837, clearly shows he was away from family (for work?) at times. I wonder if we can’t find a death for him because he was away, may have died in that county instead of Northumberland?
On another note, I recently purchased the GRO record for Mary Drummond. It says she was born 25 Aug 1854 at Dogger Bank—off Newgate Street in Morpeth. The Conroy’s are at Newgate St in 1851 census, so it seems they stayed close for a few years.
Interestingly, the informant was a “William Fallon, occupier Dogger Bank” who in the 1851 census lived at Waterloo (Matfen).
Thank you for the info about the memorials, not familiar to me but I have seen them whilst researching. :)
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Hi Mulberry Rose,
That is interesting about Mary Drummond. :) As I recall in her baptism entry at St Francis Xavier RC Church ‘Waterloo’ is mentioned. I wonder who William Fallon was and why it was he and not either of her parents who were the informants? I will have to look it up again but I think I recall our mutual ancestor Mary Conroy living with some Fallons in 1861?
My 2 x Great Grandparents James and Elizabeth Conroy nee Fitzpatrick were living at Waterloo Cottages, in 1855 when they were implicated in the ‘Matfen Murder’ of their landlady Dorothy Bewick. They were acquitted in 1856. Their son, my Great Grandfather Simon Peter was born in Newgate Street on 4 June 1851.
I remember seeing a newspaper article a good while back re a James Conroy. It was quite early around 1841 I think. The report was about a fight he had got into. This person was apparently working on the sea wall I think I recall at Warkworth. I think there is a possibility this may have been our James - I get the impression he got around and was a very hard worker.
I have obtained some more updates re Ellen in the relief lists shown in volumes held at North Shields local studies.
In the 1915/16 volume it is shown that Ellen had received:
6 May 1915 5s for 12 weeks
Then on 1 July 1915 is this paragraph below.
‘Departures from Outdoor Relief Regulations
Resolved: That sanction be given to the undermentioned departures from Outdoor Relief Regulations in force in this Union in the following cases, viz:-
… Ellen Rooney, 51 – 1 child dependent’
So this looks like she was only claiming for 1 child?
This is also a bit puzzling as it looks like relief was discontinued but relief recordings continue:
29 July 1915 5s for 12 weeks
21 Oct 1915 5s for 12 weeks
6 April 1916 5s for 12 weeks
29 June 1916 2’6d for 12 weeks
21 Sept 1916 Ellen does not appear in the list
31 March 1917 Ellen does not appear in the list.
I wonder if Ellen was getting less in June because of the warmer weather and perhaps they felt she did not need extra money for coal?
I will search more volumes the next time I get time again to go to the Local Studies.
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A further update Mulberry Rose.
I have now looked through the Minutes in volumes:
1917-18
1918-19
1919-20
1920-21
However, I can't see Ellen anymore in the Outdoor Relief lists. Obviously, something must have changed during these years. I wonder if her circumstances improved or might she have had to enter the workhouse an inmate?
I will look through more volumes up to her death when I get time.
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River Tyne Lass
I do wonder how these Fallons fit in, especially since they also seem to be from Ireland. 1861 Fallons living with our Mary Conroy are the same ones living at Waterloo in 1851.
William Fallower, 90, b Ireland, formerly gardener
Catherine Fallower, 86, b Ireland, wife
Catherine Bond, 28, b Ireland, daughter, husband soldier
Thomas Bond, 6, b Morpeth, grandson
Mary Conroy, 62 bIreland, cotton hawker, boarder
Joseph Conroy, 19, b Morpeth, railway labourer, boarder
Edward Conroy, 17, b Morpeth, coal miner, boarder
I’ve seen that article about James Conroy and Warkworth harbour, and do think it’s him too. Speaking of him, I wonder if his name was registered wrong…
I had a recent experience with GRO when trying to find the birth of Ellen Rooney, (a sister to my greatx2 grandmother Margaret) but could not find it. Turns out she was registered as “Jane Rowley” MMN Conroy! Complete left field.
I very much appreciate the outdoor relief info. :) Not sure if Ellen went into the workhouse an inmate, as she seems to have stayed in the same address consistently from 1914-1928(death). I wonder since both her youngest sons were in work by 1918, this would’ve meant she didn’t need to take relief as much.
On another note, I came across this baffling note in a criminal register regarding Joseph Conroy (my greatx4 grandfather). He was alleged to have stolen a bible in 1870/1(?), and I do believe it’s him as the age matches. However it makes reference to him in past offences as “No 12 James Conroy, Sep 26 1866, Criminal Justice Act 14 days” ??? Could just be a mistake, but confusing nonetheless.
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River Tyne Lass
Hope you are doing well :)
Come across a new development today, I think some of my Rooneys may have been using the alias Conroy.
Margaret Rooney (24) & Patrick Green (31) married 5 Aug 1911 at Morpeth Register Office. It lists Margaret as the daughter of John Conroy, not Rooney.
I think her first husband, Patrick Docherty, likely deserted her. So, as a cover up she made it appear that Conroy was her maiden name, and Rooney her married name. There is also a witness “E Conroy” which I believe is Margaret’s mother Ellen ??? Not 100%.
Their first son, Francis Green, was registered with MN Conroy, and initially I thought this was just a mixup with Ellen’s maiden name, but now think it was possibly deliberate. My ggmother birth was registered with MN Rooney, but was not registered by bio family.
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Hi Mulberry Rose,
I hope you are keeping well. :) That is interesting re the alias names. I wonder why they did that? It doesn’t sound like it was an accidental slip of the tongue as Rooney and Conroy do sound quite different.
I have revisited the Outdoor relief lists and found this one which I missed at the Local Studies. In the Departures from relief lists on 16 Dec 1915 (page 296 in the printed volume) Ellen Rooney is noted as age 51 with 1 child dependent. This time however, she is recorded under Blyth district.
Also, it may or may not have any relevance to the Leightleys you are interested in but in the departures in the 1926-27 there is an Anna M. Leightley listed age 37 with 2 illegitimate children under the Cramlington district.
Also just to mention, I managed to get a brief time yesterday afternoon at the Archives and whilst looking at a Tynemouth workhouse alphabetical index I came across some Tweddles who may or may not be of relevance. I made a note just in case.
Robert S Tweddle looks like from Cowpen. Birthdate given as 1850. Admitted 4 June 1908 and discharged 5 Aug 1910.
Also a Robert born 1861 with a Sarah born 1881 and an Alice born 1912. All discharged on 21 January 1912. I do not know when they were admitted.
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Hi, River Tyne Lass, hope you’re well too :)
Thanks for the new information. Ellen being in the Blyth district does make sense as they’d lived in Bebside before, and had a few births/deaths registered in Tynemouth. Only Margaret (1888) seems to be using Conroy as an alias, as far as I know the other Rooneys didn’t. Too many aliases! I’m still trying to figure why my Joseph Conroy was referred to as James in the criminal register ???
Thank you for the Tweddle’s and Leightley info, it’s all very appreciated. A quick look on FreeBMD shows Robert S Tweddle died Dec Qtr 1910 not long after discharge. Robert Tweddle (1861) looks to have married Sarah Johnson in 1911, daughter Alice born 1913. I’ll look these up further at a later point.
I can’t remember if I’ve mentioned this before (too many topics to keep track of!) or you may already have this info, but Peter Conroy (married Ann Miller) died of phthisis on 21 Dec 1888 at Damside Morpeth. He was a general labourer. My Rooney’s later lived at Damside mid-1891, a connection I thought might help in future.
There was also this interesting death; Michael Conroy, aged 60, besom maker, died 30 June 1870 at Hexham Union Workhouse (typhus fever).
Unrelated, but this memorial you have on FG https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/241959659/annie-dormand
I believe is connected to my Bell ancestors. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/265983899/matthew-bell
Annie Bell b. 1885 dau of Andrew & Williammina. I didn’t connect it until recently because of the surname from her second marriage.
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Hi,
Interesting topic.
My Great Great Grandfather William Stokes born in Uttoxeter, Staffordshire and christened 26th May 1833. William married Elizabeth Palmer on the 25th December 1862 at St Margaret's Church, Leicester, their witnesses were John Palmer and Mary Ann Billings. They went on to have four children William (1863), Henry (1867), Mary (1871) and Annie (1879).
William's occupation was a dealer in china in Leicester. It is believed that the family worked on fairground stalls and gave china items away as prizes.
His son William (my Great Grandfather) was later listed on census as occupation Potter.
Hope this information is of some interest.
Kind regards,
Tracey
Edited for typo.