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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Jacamar on Saturday 07 January 06 13:33 GMT (UK)
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Hi...
I am researching the name Scotcher and have so far found them in Wales. There was a story passed down that they were actually originally of the Royal Stuart family who changed their name to Scotcher to hide their origins in the Jacobite rebellion, but they always called the eldest son Stuart to remind them where they came from. We always regarded this as a bit of family embellishment but I have just found this old message (2002) on Genealolgy.com...
I'm researching my ancestors who were in the last 2 or 3 centuries Stuart and Scotcher from different families.
All I know is that Scotcher derived from a Stuart(s) who escaped to France from Oliver Cromwell with King Charles (2nd?) and as it was not wise to be known to be a Stuart they became known as La Cher Scot - later Scotcher. - does anyone know more about this and who they were/are as all I have is word passed down in the form of letters.
I have a Bena who was a Scotcher related (aunt) who told the tale to Billy (Llewellyn) Bullock Webster in a letter and the storey has been passed down through her family and down through mine.
She was related (step?/sister?) to my Gt Gt Grandfather Edwin Stanley Clark - (nicknamed D'Orsay) of Chelsea London in the 19th C.
Does anyone know the names of any early Scotchers? and links to Stuarts? or any info that might help?
So did a double take and tried to contact the author but without success.
Anyone else familiar with this story?
Lynn
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While I don't completely dismiss the story there are a few awkward facts which tend to muddy the waters.
Charles (the II) and his entourage settled in The Hague when he fled from Cromwell ..... and there was no stigma attached to any one name in Britain then. It was a civil war which could and did tear families apart.
Scotland and France had excellent relationships and it would be a badge of honour to bear the name Stewart/Stuart (Stuart is claimed to be the French version introduced by Mary Queen of Scots) ..... the Auld Alliance is a term used to define the relationship between France and Scotland.
The French term for Scotland and the Scots is L'Ecosse and L'Ecossais.
Charles Edward Stuart was born and raised in Rome in the Jacobite circles there where their entourage was.
If Scotcher did derive from Stuart/Stewart it is more likely (in my opinion) to have been from someone staying in Britain where bearing the name did tend to be extremely hazardous to ones health after the 1745 rebellion. There are numerous examples of hidden supporters and various acts.
eg The Royal Toast in Scotland - A jacobite supporter if unsure of the company they were in could give the Royal toast appearing to support the King in London but by passing their glass over water before drinking the meaning changed to a Toast to the King over the water --
There is a painting which was done (I think its in Fort William museum) which just appears to be a mass of swirling colours until you place a silver goblet in the exact centre when a portrait of Bonny Prince Charlie can be seen.
So the derivation is possible but possibly more homegrown
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Hi, I have just come across your post and had no idea that the name Scotcher might have Scots roots. I have the name as part of my family tree and was told we were of Hugenot descent. On contacting the Hugenot society they could not confirm this so felt at a loss as to where to go next. I have traced the family to the early 1800's and they are in the Bethnal Green area of London. I suppose thie is a bit too far south to have any connection with your Scotchers?
Purple Frog
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Hi Lynn, I typed in' Scotcher/ Genealogy' to google and up came 5 websites I also looked into Familysearch the mormon church site and up came 200+names one being 1549 Cambridge, the other one to try is GENUKI, good luck, regards Billy
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Hi Lyn - We have the same "myth" in my husband's family. He is Ian Derek Stuart. His mother was Mary Eileen Stuart nee Mills, born 1913, Ealing ( a first cousing to Sandro Bullock-Webster). Her mother was Kathleen Mary Elise Stevens, born Brixton, ca. 1884. Kathleen's mother was Kate (Catherine) Stuart Scotcher, born Wrexham, Denbighshire, ca. 1854, whose father Nicholas Stuart Scotcher was born in Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, ca. 1814. We were always told that the name Stuart came down the female line. Not all the Stuarts left the country with Queen Henrietta. Some of the Blantyre Stuarts seem to have stayed. I have no way of going further back with Nicholas Stuart Scotcher. If anybody has any information please post. - Ingrid
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There are 1079 Scotcher names and derivatives in LDS but only 3 in Scotland for a Francis Scutcher, this is a submitted record, so don't put much belief in that , too.
So it is likely to have its roots elsewhere rather than Scotland.
Tom
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I have a totally different origin for the name Scotcher.
We believe that it dates back to the days of the stagecoaches.
When the horses were being changed the wheels were stopped from moving by means of triangular wedges of wood. These were "scotchs", and the person who put them in place was the Scotcher!
Humble beginnings, but like so many names it comes from an occupation,eg Baker, Smith etc.
My branch of the family comes from Suffolk, though I now live near Glasgow.
Can anyone corroborate this?
Richard Scotcher
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Just come across this board. Maybe I can shed some light.
I have a letter written in 1927 by Marianne Susan Stuart Scotcher (1837 - 1935), my mother's great aunt (her younger sister - my great-grandmother - was Susan Muller Scotcher who married Edwin Stanley Clark in 1872). The letter was written to her great-nephew, Billy Bullock Webster (1879 - 1970), a theatre educator in Vancouver, B.C. The letter discusses the Scotcher "story".
She was known to my mother and other family members as "Auntie Bena". She never married and spent much of her adult life in Russia tutoring the children of nobility. She followed in the footsteps of her aunt, Jane Stuart Scotcher (1810 - 1879), who also tutored Russian princes. It was Aunt Jane who passed down the story. In the 1927 letter she writes..."She (Jane) knew, she said, we were descendants of the Scottish family (of) Henry Darnley Stuart, who married Mary Queen of Scots and they had one son who became James the First of England."
Marianne's parents were Nicholas Stuart William Scotcher (1813 - 1903) and Eliza Crawford Muller (1815 - 1881).
I would be glad to share additional information on the Scotchers & Clarks.
Steve
P.S. I tried to upload the letter which I have scanned, but the file was too large.
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Here is a link to the genealogy (ancestors and descendants) of Henry, Lord Darnley:
http://www.genealogics.org/
Type "darnley" in the search box at top left, and click on his name in the list of results.
Cheers
Prue
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Hi Steve
I'm afraid that I don't know anymore than revealed here except that I have a transcribed copy of the above mentioned letter.
I am from the Clark and Scotcher line via
Edwin Stanley, his son Henry Denton was my Grandfather, and his son Edwin Colyn my father.
We actually lived next to Sandro Bullock Webster without realising we were related via Aunt Bena for years!
I am investigating further though and will share what I find.
So who sorry was your mother so I can add you to my findings ;o)
thanks
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Thanks for all this!
My ancestors are possibly related to Nicholas Scotcher as they were all in the same part of Wales at the same time - but can't prove the relationship as the census doesn't go back that far!
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Thanks for all this!
My ancestors are possibly related to Nicholas Scotcher as they were all in the same part of Wales at the same time - but can't prove the relationship as the census doesn't go back that far!
How far have you got? what other members of your family are there?
Nicholas was my great grand mother's (Susan Muller Scotcher's) father
Perhaps you can fill in the rest of my family ;o)
I have some information on his children and some on his wife's family and descendants and I know that his father was Stuart Scotcher and his wife was an Owen but I don't have any more information on his parents than that they had 3 children ...
Jane Stuart Scotcher 1810–1879 (died in Florence)
Thomas Henry Scotcher 1812–
Nicholas S W Scotcher 1813–1903
This is Nicholas's info ..
Birth: 1813 18 Oct
at Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales
1836 31 Oct Age: 23
Marriage to Eliza Crawford Muller
Press, Shropshire
Description: Married by Rev Edward Neville, Vicar of Press
1851 Age: 38
Residence
Wrexham Regis, Denbighshire, , Wales
1881 Age: 68
Occupation
Description: jeweller and silversmith in Wrexham Regis, Denbighshire, Wales
1891 Age: 78
Residence
Kingston, Surrey, , England
Description: 18 North Rd
1903 Age: 90
Death
Surbiton
He had the following Children ....
Ann Jane Scotcher
Frederick L Scotcher born in Oswestry
Mary Anne/Marianne (my family's Aunt Bena) Scotcher 1837–1935
Susan Muller Scotcher 1847–1914
Catherine S Scotcher 1854–
E Scotcher 1855–
G.O Scotcher 1857–
Nicholas is listed on the following census with children/spouse..
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OK... I am away from my home computer at the moment - but I have traced my Scotchers back to George Owen Scotcher born 1812 in Leominster who married a Mary (?).Getting this off my ancestry tree..
He had children as follows:
Fanny 1835
Stuart W 1836
Oscar owen 1837 - 1879
Haydn 1838
Rossini 1841 - 1899
Novello 1842
Mozart 1845 - 1874
Jane 1849
Yes, the guy was very musical!!! Stuart was born in Oswestry also and I have looked at your line b4 - Frederick L was Frederick Ludvig (as in Beethoven?) so this is why I was thinking there was a connection. Although these two were born in Oswestry, by the 1841 census, Stuart was in Stoke on Trent, so I can't tell where exactly he was living in Oswestry.
As far as I can tell, there are no other Scotchers in Wales at that time!
I also do rather think that my Scotchers were related to the Scotcher piano family as I can put one of them in Birminghm very close to the street where the shop was.
However, how all this relates to the Stuart Royal family is anyones guess. The "Cher Scot" story seems a bit thin as when Bonnie Prince Charlie was in France - there were aready lots of Scotchers in the UK.
I'd love to be able to nail down whether my lot were related to Nicholas though!
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Sounds definitely plausible they are related with the musical side of it ;o)
I'm trying to get my heads around the dates of it and would need to sit down and have a look at what we've got here. ;o)
Perhaps George Owen Scotcher is a brother or cousin to Nicholas as they were born a year apart, though I don't know how far apart they were born. Perhaps they share grandparents?
There seems to be a lot of first names in my family carried through the family - your's mentions the Owen - that is linked to Stuart scotcher - with George and then with Oscar and you have a Jane and I have a Jane, I wonder if the families might have got their children confused as well.
I'll get back to you if I come up with anything ;o)
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Hehe
Glad to have you aboard re the Scotchers!
I have a lot on at work this week - but after that I may have time to go through this as well from my end.
Brother or cousin is what I have thought. I am compiling a google map to log all the whereabouts of the family and I will get back onto this after this week is out and send you the link.
So........ OK you have this link to Lord Darnley - but where does the Scotcher name come in??
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Hehe
Glad to have you aboard re the Scotchers!
I have a lot on at work this week - but after that I may have time to go through this as well from my end.
Brother or cousin is what I have thought. I am compiling a google map to log all the whereabouts of the family and I will get back onto this after this week is out and send you the link.
So........ OK you have this link to Lord Darnley - but where does the Scotcher name come in??
Thanks ;o) ooh Google map sounds like a good idea
Ah yes thats 25,000$ question!
I did hear it said that one of my cousins had a childs lace cap that was alledgedly worn by one of the King Charles' but I've never seen it or had it confirmed.
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Curioser and Curioser!
So you have no family history of why the Stuarts became Scotchers then?
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Curioser and Curioser!
So you have no family history of why the Stuarts became Scotchers then?
well I've not found it yet but I'm just discovering my family as I never new most of my cousins until this year so am just learning things now.
My own immediate family is no more to ask.
I only have a copy of the same letter mentioned above that was written to Billy Bullock-webster
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Just to complicate the story...
There was a George Scotcher who wrote a famous book on fly-fishing called "The Fly Fisher's Legacy" published around 1810. It was a sort of bible for fly-fishermen (and women, of course). The book is long out of print and - if a copy was discovered - it would be quite valuable.
Here's a link to a description of the book...
http://books.google.com/books?id=KwsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=scotcher+fly+fishing&source=web&ots=oxsaPGQy8h&sig=GluWcjDOiwLpueAx99Iufir2_uw
I think this George Scotcher may have been an uncle of Nicholas Stuart Scotcher. In some notes I have from Auntie Bena (Marianne Scotcher, 1837-1935) I seem to remember that she refers to him.
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Just to complicate the story...
There was a George Scotcher who wrote a famous book on fly-fishing called "The Fly Fisher's Legacy" published around 1810. It was a sort of bible for fly-fishermen (and women, of course). The book is long out of print and - if a copy was discovered - it would be quite valuable.
Here's a link to a description of the book...
http://books.google.com/books?id=KwsAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=scotcher+fly+fishing&source=web&ots=oxsaPGQy8h&sig=GluWcjDOiwLpueAx99Iufir2_uw
I think this George Scotcher may have been an uncle of Nicholas Stuart Scotcher. In some notes I have from Auntie Bena (Marianne Scotcher, 1837-1935) I seem to remember that she refers to him.
Intriguing thanks, I've just spent the weekend in Chester with Myles Denton-Clark's family and discovered they were all heavily into fishing. there are big notebooks with records of the fish caught and newspaper articles on what the fishing is like this season.
Ohh and I just found an article about how Fred Scotcher was running the local newsagent ;o) I'll get more info for you when I have a moment to look at it properly
Sorry I'm just going through my parents things and new things are coming to light all the time.
I wondered about the uncle/nephew thing - it still could be true even though they were only born a year apart
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The book was published in 1810, I think. Clearly George Scotcher was one, maybe two, generations up from Nicholas.
Did you meet Edward, by any chance?
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I've got a couple of names that were noted down that might help us ...
Captain Thomas Stuart - Adjudant of Chelsea Hospital
born 1668 - 26/10 1750
Simon Stuart of Hartley Hampshire
Now I know nothing more than these were written down on a piece of paper amongst all that I have
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The book was published in 1810, I think. Clearly George Scotcher was one, maybe two, generations up from Nicholas.
Did you meet Edward, by any chance?
Ah thanks.
Yes I did ;o) he's lovely
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I've got the same pieces of paper! However, I was able to find something interesting about (Sir) Simon Stuart. He must have been some kind of forebear, but I can't make the connection yet.
Anyway, what I found was from a magazine whose name I forget for the moment. The publication, which existed for about 40 - 50 years in the early 1700s, is actually available online. Or it was a few years ago when I found the reference to Sir Simon Stuart.
There was a small article, no more than a paragraph or so, which told that he had been lucky enough to find a treasure trove of gold coins buried on his land by his grandfather during the English Civil War.
I'll try to dig it out in a few days and give you specifics.
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I've got the same pieces of paper! However, I was able to find something interesting about (Sir) Simon Stuart. He must have been some kind of forebear, but I can't make the connection yet.
Anyway, what I found was from a magazine whose name I forget for the moment. The publication, which existed for about 40 - 50 years in the early 1700s, is actually available online. Or it was a few years ago when I found the reference to Sir Simon Stuart.
There was a small article, no more than a paragraph or so, which told that he had been lucky enough to find a treasure trove of gold coins buried on his land by his grandfather during the English Civil War.
I'll try to dig it out in a few days and give you specifics.
thanks! that sounds fascinating
there must be more information if he was a 'Sir'
I'll let you know if i come up with anything
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"In the parish church (of Countesbury or Countisbury) is a tablet in memory of Sir Simon Stuart, Bart., of Hartley Mauduit, Hants, who died in 1816."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50573
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"In the parish church (of Countesbury or Countisbury) is a tablet in memory of Sir Simon Stuart, Bart., of Hartley Mauduit, Hants, who died in 1816."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50573
this of course is a different Simon Stuart to yours..
I also found a major Sir Simon coming back from the Boer wars in 1900..
http://www.angloboerwar.com/Other/shipping/190012.htm
he might be the same one from Hartley but not I fear related any closer to the mystery of the Scotchers!
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Ahem...
I just found a post I made in 2002 asking the same scotcher/stuart question and one of our cousins suggested I/we investigate the Blantyres.
Here is the link to the forum for the full reply..
http://genforum.genealogy.com/cgi-bin/pageload.cgi?Lord,Blantyre::stuart::2386.html
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Hi all you Scotcher ancestors :)
Will you be needing any more help from the rest of us non-Scotchers? I only ask because a few of us have made suggestions further up the thread that I'm not sure you've followed up on yet...
The best suggestion I can give you all is to completely ignore the legend for now, that your surname is derived from/originates from the royal Stuart name, and just trace backwards. This is the only way that you are going to find out for sure, either way.
If you need any more leads or ideas, just let us know.
Cheers
Prue
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Thanks Prue
Well I'm looking up everything and following every lead ;o)
I'm just a bit random about how I go about it.
I'll go back and have a look in case I missed something.
thank you everyone that has been helping us!
"Hi all you Scotcher ancestors
Will you be needing any more help from the rest of us non-Scotchers? I only ask because a few of us have made suggestions further up the thread that I'm not sure you've followed up on yet...
The best suggestion I can give you all is to completely ignore the legend for now, that your surname is derived from/originates from the royal Stuart name, and just trace backwards. This is the only way that you are going to find out for sure, either way.
If you need any more leads or ideas, just let us know.
Cheers
Prue"
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Well said, PrueM!
I know we all love our family myths but so often that's exactly all they are i.e. myths ;D
I think it was Billy Anderson who made an excellent suggestion back in reply #3. Look at the IGI! I don't pretend to have found the earliest extracted record of the name SCOTCHER but I've now come across them back into the 1580s (in England) - there may well be earlier ones.
Such dates rather make a nonsense of the myth ...
JAP
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The Sir Simon from Hartley Mauditt was indeed the one mentioned by Auntie Bena so he must be some kind of connection.
Very strangely, though, another branch of my family (neither Scotcher nor Clark, but Turvill) came from Hartley Mauditt, which is not (and never was) exactly a metropolis.
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Well said, PrueM!
I know we all love our family myths but so often that's exactly all they are i.e. myths ;D
I think it was Billy Anderson who made an excellent suggestion back in reply #3. Look at the IGI! I don't pretend to have found the earliest extracted record of the name SCOTCHER but I've now come across them back into the 1580s (in England) - there may well be earlier ones.
Such dates rather make a nonsense of the myth ...
JAP
Hiya sorry newbie here,
Its no good telling us to do something as if we should all miraculously know these things.
What is IGI?
Or am I being particularly dense?
I hate acronyms - often they are so blindingly obvious I just can't see them
then I feel really silly.
thanks
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The Sir Simon from Hartley Mauditt was indeed the one mentioned by Auntie Bena so he must be some kind of connection.
Very strangely, though, another branch of my family (neither Scotcher nor Clark, but Turvill) came from Hartley Mauditt, which is not (and never was) exactly a metropolis.
Ah thanks - would that be the George Turvill Brown link?
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Amanda
The IGI is the INTERNATIONAL GENEALOGICAL INDEX and it can be searched here
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
JAP is right, the name of Scotcher predates the Jacobite rebellion BUT the myth is valuable because it seems to have been passed down untouched through different families which may suggest the families ARE related.
I am actually visting my father at the moment and he emphasises that his recollection of the "myth" is that the family were related to the Stuarts and thus a target for persecution thus "hid their name". This ties in more with the above than any "Scotcher" concoction. He also does remember calling the wedges under carriage/cart wheels "scotches".
I have taken advice and tried to trace the family back, ignoring myths. I have got to an impasse because I couldn't prove my lot were related to the Nicholas Scotcher line but I think we are starting to see this could be a possibility.
My interest lies in that the name itself is very prevalent in the East of England, yet my line ended up in Wales and then the Midlands.
Thanks to you all for all the help and advice!
Lynn
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Amanda
The IGI is the INTERNATIONAL GENEALOGICAL INDEX and it can be searched here
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
JAP is right, the name of Scotcher predates the Jacobite rebellion BUT the myth is valuable because it seems to have been passed down untouched through different families which may suggest the families ARE related.
I am actually visting my father at the moment and he emphasises that his recollection of the "myth" is that the family were related to the Stuarts and thus a target for persecution thus "hid their name". This ties in more with the above than any "Scotcher" concoction. He also does remember calling the wedges under carriage/cart wheels "scotches".
I have taken advice and tried to trace the family back, ignoring myths. I have got to an impasse because I couldn't prove my lot were related to the Nicholas Scotcher line but I think we are starting to see this could be a possibility.
My interest lies in that the name itself is very prevalent in the East of England, yet my line ended up in Wales and then the Midlands.
Thanks to you all for all the help and advice!
Lynn
Thanks Lynn, I appreciate the clarification.
I am investigating the names not the myth ;o), and sharing what I've found and that is hopefully what this board is for. I would just like to know who's who and put the links together. The myth is fun but I guess some of the people are sensitive on here.
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Amanda...
Up until right now I have been busy with new job and will be again until next week. Otherwise I would have talked to you more!
I think we need to exchange information because I am damn sure your line and my line are connected. In fact I have sent emails to you over the last few years that you never picked up!
The myth IS fun hehe..... and I am connected to other people who also have the same myth in their family. This is what makes it interesting. If it wasn't for the myth I wouldn't be talking to you right now.
I have been back to Stoke and traced my Scotchers to the pub they ran in Norfolk Street. My Dad didn't even know his grandmother was a Scotcher - he knew her as "Ma Parry".. but he did remember going into that pub as a 5 year old and collecting glasses very importantly. This is what makes ancestry so compelling! He had completely blanked that until we started on this project!
http://www.parryfamilytree.co.uk/2.html
I have somewhere pictures of Fred and his shops in Holywell - the family ran a tobacconists. What is very interesting is that the census recorders had no idea what these outlandish names were (Rossini etc) and misrecorded most of them. In fact some of the guys changed their names to make them more easy to understand.
The other interesting thing is.... we have other "myths" in our family. One was that we were connected to the Tams potters. It was regarded as rubbish by ALL our relatives. I have now successfully traced the connection back to John Tams first marriage. The "myth" happened to be totally true.
So perhaps there are grains of truth in any myth. To me... keeping an open mind is the best bet.
I hope to chat with you further re the Scotchers!!
Lynn
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Amanda...
Up until right now I have been busy with new job and will be again until next week. Otherwise I would have talked to you more!
I think we need to exchange information because I am damn sure your line and my line are connected. In fact I have sent emails to you over the last few years that you never picked up!
The myth IS fun hehe..... and I am connected to other people who also have the same myth in their family. This is what makes it interesting. If it wasn't for the myth I wouldn't be talking to you right now.
I'll email you know ;o)
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Just an update for you guys:
Nicholas Stuart Scotcher 1813. I found his baptism record (7th November 1813) and his father was called George and was a listed as a comedian! His mother was called Mary.
Interestingly his name was actually recorded as Nicholas Steward Scotcher
Lynn
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Flax scutcher Beat flax fibres by hand or through a machine as part of the flax dressing process.
http://www.scotsfamily.com/occupations.htm
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Hello,
Was interested in the name 'Scotcher' as this was my maiden name, my father (now living in Bury St Edmunds) and uncle (now living in Exmouth) lived in Abingdon near Cambridge, I'm sure they had relatives living in London.
Sue
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This is the earliest derivative of the name I can find in Scotland
16/05/1799 SCOTR JAMES son of WILLIAM SCOTR and CLEMENTINA OUCHTERLONY at Arbirlot ANGUS
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Hi All...
This thread still seems to be causing some interest so I'll explain how I have got on. It may take a while!
Firstly, I initially posted on the Scottish boards because when I start pursuing this myth, it was in the knowledge that my family were absolutely convinced they had Scottish roots re the Stuart family. It was so strong I was of the firm belief my Great grandmother was Scottish. Imagine my surprise when my investigations of Scotchers ended up in Oswestry!
In fact Scotcher is NOT a Scottish name. It originated as far as I can tell in East Anglia (if you look at the world name profiler (http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/Default.aspx?country_code=GB), thats where most of them are. The name refers to stilts and many of the people of the fens used stilts to cross boggy ground.
Many here advocated forgetting the myth and go back to the IGI which, of course, we have done. The various people who have this myth in their family and have posted here are probably related - we just don;t have online records available to definitely link us.
My line goes back to George Owen Scotcher 1812 born in Leominster. Others went back to Nicholas Stuart Scotcher 1813 born in Welshpool - and he had a son called George Owen. So were they brothers?
Well, this week on IGI I found Nicholas' parents - George and Mary Scotcher. George was recorded as a comedian! But this is as far as I can get as the Heredfordshire parish records are not online.
Now - to the myth that that the Stuart Scotchers are related to Henry Stuart Darnley. The "Le Cher Scot" converting to Scotcher makes no sense at all as pointed out by various members of this board.
What I did then was think a little laterally. The Stuart family historically WERE in France. So with only a little digging I found that the younger branch of the Stuart Darnley family were in France, owning lands given to them by Scottish Kings. Their castle was in Aubigney sur Nere in the CHER region of France. Is it possible that one of our ancestors had a surname of Scot (there WERE Stuart Scotts) and came from Cher? Maybe if he came over to the eastern part of England, where Scotchers are most prevalent, it tickled his fancy to adopt this name that also had resonance for him?
At any rate it is worth looking at we feel. The "myth" is incredibly strong and has been passed down three families completely unconnected for 200 years. Its remarkably consistent, considering this time frame - as in word for word in each one.
So what I am really looking for now are any clues to the Stuart family in France over quite a long time frame. I rather think that the name Darnley in the myth tended to make people think of the Jacobite rebellion but the myth only actually says "when he returned from France" and it may be people with a poor grasp of history rather telescoped things.
On a completely prosaic level, and to satisfy those who think I merely trailing after will o the wisps, I have found a marriage in the IGI between a Nicholas Scotcher and Susanna Stuart in Surrey in 1753 and they had a son George 1762. Whether they are connected to ours or not, can't say - and if they are, why they would concoct a story about Stuart forebears that have lasted over 200 years I know not either!
Lynn
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Hi Lynn,
Who knows about family myths!!
Mine are mostly true.
My unproven one is that we are related to Henry HACKING, Quartermaster of the 'Sirius' in the First Fleet. Haven't been able to prove anything! But who knows! Though if my rells had known what a rogue Henry was, I'm sure they would not have claimed any relationship!
My Fife one is that the name PHILIP was of Huguenot derivation. Given that it turns out to be PHILP in Fife and was a very common name, I doubt it!
A pity that there's no family myth re the Fife name LOCHTIE - which another branch has as Scandinavian in origin; a reasonable supposition.
I guess we should never discount family myths; but, on the other hand, should never believe them. Until proven on either count ;D
Best regards,
JAP
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Hi, my grandmother was Fanny Scotcher b Stoke on Trent 1875, father Stuart William Scotcher b. 1836 Owestry. Her story as told by her father was that we came from the family Stuart. To keep the Stuart name going in the family the first born male was to be named Stuart . Stuart William Scotcher ran the Victoria Hotel in Stoke.
Stuart William Scotcher father was George Owen Scotcher b.1812 married to
Mary Pugh b.1807.
I am now looking for the parents of George Owen Scotcher.
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Hello Stuart, my name is Holly and we are related. My gt gt grandfather was Oscar Owen (1837) brother of your Stuart William.
We are also definately related to Jacamar-on this site) as she is also descende from Stuart William. I still officially found any ancestors to George Owen, but I am pretty sure that his parents were George Scotcher and Mary Owen who were also the parents of Nicholas (1813) who is also mentioned by Amandafrances clark and sasflo on this site. I have also found the parents of a George Scotcher who were Nicholas Scotcher and Susanna Stuart. I've also come across a Susanna Stuart who father is listed as Jaques "The Old Pretender" Stuart!!! Nothing proved as I need to go to Leominster to find George Owen's baptism.
Do you have any Scotcher photos?
Holly
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Hi sasflo,
I'm researching the Clark family of Gwersyllt and Llay, mining engineers and local entrepreneurs. Edwin Stanley married Susan Muller Scotcher. I would dearly like a photograph of him for my society's next book.
Regards
Vic (President, Llai Local History Society)
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Hi Richard,
I would like to share with you, how I first learned the origin of the SCOTCHER name.
During my childhood I attended 3 schools, 2 in England (infant & Secondary modern) and one in Scotland (infant & Junior).
It was while attending junior school in Scotland that a lady teacher introduced the class to how surnames were derived.
As you would no doubt realize Scots Clan names and Mac derivatives were heavily discussed, but she also read a story to the class from book she owned on how the English name SCOTCHER came to be.
Hope you find the following story of the SCOTCHER NAME interesting.
As a child it fascinated me............
THE TALE OF OUR ANCESTORS AND THE (ENGLISH) NAME SCOTCHER:
In the year 1667 Tim (9) his sister Kate (7) live with their frail grandmother just beyond the outskirts of the new London.
Sent by their parents to live with her in 1665 to escape the Bubonic Plague that was ravaging old London, she is now their sole relative.
The children are orphans as all other family members have perished either by the plague or in the subsequent 1666 great fire.
During the spring and summer season, Tim and Kate work as child labour on farms.
In the Autumn they collect mushrooms, chestnuts etc, and foraged for kindling that is used in winter to heat their grandmothers hovel; they sell any surplus.
Winter is the harshest time for the children as the only employ is placing rocks behind the wheels of coaches at steep inclines, for a few pennies tossed by the coach travellers.
The rocks stop the heavy horse drawn coaches from rolling backwards down the slippery cobblestone road.
This work is known as "scotching the wheels" and it is fraught with danger, because the rocks are unpredictable and prone to breaking.
With raw chapped fingers chilled to the bone, Kate collects the rocks and Tim fits them behind the coach wheels.
One day Tim places a rock into position and it disintegrates causing the coach to roll back onto him crushing his leg.
The coaches wealthy occupants toss a few silver coins (as is the custom) to compensate injured Tim.
Writhing in agony Tim is placed onto a handcart then Kate wearily dragged him slowly home, where his grandmother sets his leg.
Recovering from the accident Tim is left permanently crippled and unable to work effectively, but work he must in order to survive.
He hobbles behind the coaches jamming the head of his oak wood crutch against the wheels, and is dubbed "Tim the cripple" by fellow child workers.
The oak wood crutch head under the intense pressure does not last long before it splinters to pieces.
However, at the very lowest moment of his entire life Tim has a clever idea!
Using the last of the accident money he commissions a blacksmith to forge and fit several iron wedges onto long stout oak poles, and embarks on a unique career.
He hires these efficient "scotching poles " out to the other children who are eager to rent them in place of scotching rocks.
The scotching poles eliminate the need to hunt for rocks and enable the scotching of the coach wheels in safety.
The rent pennies soon mount up and Tim, Kate and their grandmother are able to live a comfortable modest lifestyle.
Tim and Kate also manage to pay for a little tutoring thus freeing themselves from the yoke of illiteracy.
When Tim and Kate reach adulthood they had become relatively wealthy educated members of the working class London hawkers.
Entrepreneur Tim (no longer called "Tim the cripple") is thereafter referred to by the nickname "Tim the scotcher" and this ultimately evolves to become his permanent name ......Tim SCOTCHER..... THE END>
A SHORT HISTORY OF THIS PERIOD:
In two successive years of the 17th century London suffered two terrible disasters.
The Great Bubonic Plague in 1665 known as the Black Death, and in 1666 the Great Fire of London.
In the spring and summer of 1665 an outbreak of Bubonic Plague spread from parish to parish until thousands had died and the huge pits dug to receive the bodies were full.
It began in London in the poor, overcrowded parish of St. Giles-in-the-Field.
It started slowly at first but by May of 1665, 43 had died.
In June 6137 people died, in July 17036 and at its peak in August, 31159 people died.
In all, 15% of the population perished during that terrible summer.
Incubation took a mere four to six days and when the plague appeared in a household, the house was sealed, thus condemning the whole family to death!
These houses were distinguished by a painted red cross on the door and the words, 'Lord have mercy on us'.
At night the corpses were brought out in answer to the cry,' Bring out your dead', put in a cart and taken away to the plague pits.
One called the Great Pit was at Aldgate in London and another at Finsbury Fields.
The King, Charles II and his Court left London and fled to Oxford.
Those people who could, sent their families away from London during these months, but the poor had no recourse but to stay.
The plague lasted in London until the late Autumn when the colder weather helped kill off the fleas.
In 1666 the Great Fire of London destroyed much of the centre of London but also killed off most of the black rats and fleas that carried the plague bacillus.
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Thanks for all this!
My ancestors are possibly related to Nicholas Scotcher as they were all in the same part of Wales at the same time - but can't prove the relationship as the census doesn't go back that far!
How far have you got? what other members of your family are there?
Nicholas was my great grand mother's (Susan Muller Scotcher's) father
Perhaps you can fill in the rest of my family ;o)
I have some information on his children and some on his wife's family and descendants and I know that his father was Stuart Scotcher and his wife was an Owen but I don't have any more information on his parents than that they had 3 children ...
Jane Stuart Scotcher 1810–1879 (died in Florence)
Thomas Henry Scotcher 1812–
Nicholas S W Scotcher 1813–1903
This is Nicholas's info ..
Birth: 1813 18 Oct
at Welshpool, Montgomeryshire, Wales
1836 31 Oct Age: 23
Marriage to Eliza Crawford Muller
Press, Shropshire
Description: Married by Rev Edward Neville, Vicar of Press
1851 Age: 38
Residence
Wrexham Regis, Denbighshire, , Wales
1881 Age: 68
Occupation
Description: jeweller and silversmith in Wrexham Regis, Denbighshire, Wales
1891 Age: 78
Residence
Kingston, Surrey, , England
Description: 18 North Rd
1903 Age: 90
Death
Surbiton
He had the following Children ....
Ann Jane Scotcher
Frederick L Scotcher born in Oswestry
Mary Anne/Marianne (my family's Aunt Bena) Scotcher 1837–1935
Susan Muller Scotcher 1847–1914
Catherine S Scotcher 1854–
E Scotcher 1855–
G.O Scotcher 1857–
Nicholas is listed on the following census with children/spouse..
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
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I'm not sure if my information may be of interest to you. I live in Wrexham and was by chance photographing St Giles church last week. There is a headstone at the church which reads;
"To The Memory Of
Eliza Crawford Scotcher
obt Aug 8th 1845
Aged 4 years and 9 months
Also
of Nicholas Stuart Scotcher
obt Feb 24th 1846
Aged 9 months"
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Hi Tom
Re the Scotcher reference to scotching.. I have heard this before but the Scotcher name pre dates 1665! Of course, it may not be the 1665 plague the story relates to?
Chris,
Thank you very much for this information - very interesting indeed.
We have now established that my Scotchers are related to Amanda's and Sasflo's and therefore also yours. The father of both Nicholas Scotcher (1813) and George Owen Scotcher (1812) was George Scotcher (1762).
George Scotcher was the son of Nicholas Scotcher (1733) who was married to a Susanna Stuart (1733) which is presumably where the Stuart connection starts to come in. It appears Susanna was the daughter of Captain Thomas Stuart (1668-1750)
So, we have found Stuarts! Whether this is anything to do with the Scottish Royal family is not clear - though as the Stuarts/Stewarts were quite prolific, its not beyond the bounds of possibility.
However, this "myth" is proving to be quiet resilient :)
You can view my tree with all the Scotchers on Ancestry - my tree is Parry1. please send me a message if you want more information.
Lynn
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Stewart/Stuart was and still is, a very common name throughout Scotland. I used to know many "Travelling folk" by that name. Deadman and Townsley are also Travellers names. Here is a quote from wikipedia -
Indigenous Highland Travellers
In Scottish Gaelic they are known as the Ceàrdannan ("the Craftsmen"). The English term 'travelling people' has been adopted into contemporary Gaelic as luchd siubhail (people of travel) but this is a wider term covering other groups of travellers too and it still has to gain full currency and comprehension amongst ordinary Gaelic speakers. Poetically known as the Summer Walkers, Highland Travellers are a distinct ethnic group and may be referred to as traivellers, traivellin fowk, in Scots, tinkers, originating from the Gaelic tinceard or (tinsmith) or "Black Tinkers". Mistakenly the settled Scottish population may call all travelling and Romani groups tinkers, which is usually regarded as pejorative, and contemptuously as tinks or tinkies.
Highland Travellers are closely tied to the native Highlands, and many traveller families carry clan names like Macfie, Stewart, MacDonald, Cameron, Williamson and Macmillan. They follow a nomadic or settled lifestyle; passing from village to village and are more strongly identified with the native Gaelic speaking population. Continuing their nomadic life, they would pitch their bow-tents on rough ground on the edge of the village and earn money there as tinsmiths, hawkers, horse dealers or pearl-fishermen. Many found seasonal employment on farms, e.g. at the berry picking or during harvest. Since the 1950s, however, the majority of Highland Travellers have settled down into organized campsites or regular houses.
Adam Smith, the economist and philosopher, was reportedly kidnapped by Highland Travellers at a young age before quickly being freed
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the stewarts / stuarts clans origins started in France
for the Scotcher origins please see the link below
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Scotcher
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Aha!!
Thanks for this link! Helps a good deal!
Lynn