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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Gillian Jones on Wednesday 21 December 05 12:51 GMT (UK)
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If anyone could help me to find official documentation I presume there must have been to set up a brewery ?
My ancestor James Key started up a brewery in the late 1700s - early 1800s in Crail.
I have a lot of information on his son James's development of the brewery and am interested in knowing more about his father who was married in st Andrews to a Barbara Christie in 1789
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Hya Gillian, this site is a partial extract of the crail 1851 census, it has a James Key as brewer on it.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/2299/1851crail.html
Gen10
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Thanks for your response gen10 this James Key is the brother to my gt.gt.grandfather Thomas Key. Apparently the brewing business did very well for James and his family.
I really want to track down his father James who married a Barbara Christie in St Andrews in 1789. I'm sure he must have had to be apprenticed to learn the brewing trade and also would have had to have held a licence to start up the business. If you have any ideas I would be very grateful.
Best Wishes and thanks.
Jill
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Hi Gillian,
I am helping a KEY family with their history, was your gt.gt.grandfather, the Thomas Key who moved down to Dorset? Any chance. He was born circa 1805 in Scotland, no way of confirming if he is the son of James and Barbara.
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Thomas Key is my great great grandfather and the 7Th surviving child of 8 that James Key and Barbara Christie had. He was born in 1805 as you say and I have copy of his christening record.
His father James Key christened24/01/1762in St Andrews to a Thomas Key and Helen Durie. Thomas Key was a brewer and maltman and a freeman of st Andrews. I have taken the Key family back to a Robert Key1615 in St Andrews.
Hope this is of help. Would be interested to know which line of the Keys you are researching. If I can be of any more help please ask.
Regards
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The family is descended from one of our Thomas Key's sons, Alexander. What I need is more proof that the Thomas Key baptised in Crail in 1805 is the one and the same Thomas Key who moved down to Dorset. According to the censuses he was born in Scotland c1805/1806 in Scotland so probably is the right one. There is another Thomas Key baptised in Ferry Port January 1806 but he died in 1811.
What do you know about your Thomas Key?
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Hi Jo,
My great grandfather is Alex Key.I have loads of info on the Key family and some photographs too. My grandfather Ernest, awas the eldest son of Alex Key and Emily Gover.The Govers go back quite a way to Lewis Gover in Corfe.
About 5-7 years ago I spent a lot of time on the internet carrying out my research.
I have Thomas Key's excise office records, which are quite interesting. We were always told that he'd caught pneumonia while out hunting down smugglers, when in fact he died in 1861 of consumption! His family were left pretty destitute by all accounts.
He and Agnes had 11 children.
Hope this is of help
Jill
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Hi Jill!
I am assuming your maiden name was Geddes.
Thank you so much for all the information. My friend is descended from Alan Key, Alex and Emily's youngest son.
I have only recently started the tree and to date only have 10 children of Thomas and Agnes:
Isabella Leslie, Thomas (1839) John, Thomas (1842) William, Barbara, Agnes, James, Alex and Marian.
I am going away shortly but will keep in touch.
Thank you once again
Best Wishes
Jo
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Heriot-Watt University has an internationally renowned department of brewing and I believe they have historical archives of brewing and brewers in Scotland -
http://www.icbd.hw.ac.uk
I recently bought a book by Forbes Gibb entitled "The Brewers and Breweries of Fife" (Stirling: Lomax Press, 2014). There are 14 entries for Key in the index, and most of these people are mentioned several times.
There used to be a brewery in Anstruther, which in 1858 was bought by James Key, brewer in the Westgate of Crail. The Key family ran that brewery in Anstruther until 1920.
Harry
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Katharine Key
In the minutes of the proceedings of the kirk session of New burgh, there is a record of the examination of a woman, named Katharine Key, on a charge of witchcraft, and ' for cursing the minister.' An imprecation from a reputed witch at that period was heard with dread, and was believed to be followed by certain fulfilment ; Katharine Key was therefore brought to trial, and but for a concurrence of circumstances favourable to her, she would have suffered the same or a worse fate than Grissell Gairdner, for many were burnt alive under the same accusation. No apology is offered for the length to which the account of these trials extends, as authentic records are really the history of the period.
1653 Sep. 4. Katharine Key appointed to be summond against Sunday next for cursing of ye minister because of debarring her from the communion.
Sep. 11, Appeared, Katharine Key denyed that she cursed the minister, but that she cursed these who were the cause of the minister debarring her, nevertheless it was declared by several sitting in the Session “ it was the minister she cursed and openly throughout the street, and upon her bare knees.' ' The minister to which gave in against her that several points had come to his hearing which he desired to be put to trail'
1. That after Katherine had been refused of milk from Christian Orme, or some other in David Orme's house, a cow gave nothing but blood, and being sent for to see the cow, Katherine clapped (clap=stroke) the cow and said “the cow will be well', and thereafter the cow became well.
2. That John Philp having a cow new calved, Katharine Key came in and took furthe a peat fire after which the cow became so sick that none expected it to live, Katharine being sent for to see the cow, she clapped the cow, and said “the cow will be well enough” and the cow became well.'
3. That the minister and his wife (not named!!) took a 3 month old child of theirs from Katharine, who had been nursing it, after which, the child would “suck none womans breast”, but after the child was brought back again to the said Katharine, it resumed feeding.'
4. After once again, removing the child from Katherine the bairn moaned and cried through the night and most the day, until she died, Before Katherine had come to see and embraced the child, the child was “as well as any bairn could be”.
5. That she is an evil brut of fame and so was her mother before her.
her mother befoir her was of evil bruit and fame,' was of momentous import ; judge, jury, and people firmly believing that occult powers descended by blood from mother to child.
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The Session summonsed Katharine Key, personally present, to appear Sunday next to answer to the aforesaid points, and ordained the beadle to summons the witnesses'
Sept. 18, Appeared, Katharine Key to answer to the points given in against her,
Appeared, as witness's against her, Christian Orme, Katharine Gaddes for the proving of the firstpoint.' Katharine declared she had nothing against either witness
The witness were sworn to declare the verity.
Christian Orme depones, that she had a sick cow and Katharine Key bade her get a hand full of rough bear and cut it to her and she did no more.''
Katharine Gaddes depones that Christian Orme had a sick cow but denied the rest.
The rest of the called witness's did not appear
The Session ordained to be summond again next Sunday and Katharine Key ordained to be present again on the said day.'
Sept 25, Appeared Katharine Key and Marg Philp for the proving of the second point,
Marg Philp was sworn to declare the verity.
Marg Philp declared that her father had a sick cow but denied the rest,
The rest of the called witness's did not appear
The Session ordained to be summond again on Tuesday next.'
Sept 27 Katharine Key is challenged, when meeting Patrick Beitt, younger and George Millar upon the way and said, ' there goes the kirkmen, the divell take the pack of you ; '
Katharine Key denied this
Patrick Beatt and George Millar ordained to be summond for the proof of them against Sunday next.'
Oct 1- 2, Appeared, Katharine Key,
Katharine declared she had nothing against the witness's who were then sworn in
David Smyth depones that Christian Orme had a sick cow but denied the rest.'
Agnes Stirk being examined about the third point, depones that, “the bairn did suck her but would not suck one a Sunday afternoon.”'
Katharine M'Larane , (now we have a name of the ministers wife), being examined about the third point depones, that “the bairn would suck none but Kathrine Key.''
Christian Freebairne being examined depones, “she heard the bairn crying often, but could not say why,''
Kathrine and Margaret Laing being examined declared, as Christian Freebairne,
heard the bairn crying both day and night, but could not say why,''
Marg Peacock declared sick
Kathrine M'Larane examined upon the 4 points declared that the bairn rested well enough before Kathrine Key came to see her but cried ever after until her dying day
Kathrine Key was called upon, and Patrick Beatt younger,and George Millar to witness the truth of the words spoken by Kathrine Key, to wit, ' Their goes the kirkmen the divell take the pack of you.'
Katharine declared she had nothing against either witness, after being sworn in,
Patrick Beatt being examined, depones he heard Kathrine Key speak the libelous words.
George Millar being examined depones he heard Kathrine Key speak the libelous words
(the 2 ministers she insulted)' The session, taking into consideration the aforesaid process,
in respect Janet Anderson one of the witness was sick; Annas Philp another of the witness was residing in Falkland ; Margarett Williamon was in Edinburgh, found that the aforesaid process was not fully tried, and therefore delayed to determine until it was more fully tried by the witness to be examined. Kathrine Key called upon and the minister explained to her that her process was not as yet fully closed. But advertisement should be given unto her then she should appear again to hear sentence.'
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' 1654. 19 March. The session taking to consideration the aforesaid process of Kathrine Key, which had lain so long, for further trial and finding there was no further light to be had in the aforesaid particulars, the process being read over by the minister as it is now extracted the whole Elders in one voice declared it was the very process as it was led on against Kathrine Key, and therefore they thought good it should should be referred to the presbyter: Lykas in one voice they did refer the same to be judged and censured according as they found her fault deserve, and summond Kathrine Key to appear before the presbyter to be held at Cupar the 23 March
May 3, 1655, Mr David Orme reports, that he, with Mr Alexander Balfour, had dealt with Katharine Key and found her sensible of her guiltiness of cursing her minister.
The minister is appointed to intimate to the parish if any had anything concerning witchcraft to object, that they come to the session, and give it in ; and if nothing be found of that kind, she shall declare her repentance in the public place of repentance for cursing.'
3rd June 1655, Kathrine Key appeared before the session having been before the presbytery. The minister declared he was appointed be the presbytery to intimat out of the pulpit about Kathrine Key if any person had any thing to lay to her charge about witchcraft, or relating to they should appear before the session, and thereafter she to be admitted to her repentance for cursing the minister and session if nothing about the former came in against her.'
10 June 1655, the session sitting, the beadle was desired to call at the church door if there were any who had any thing to say against Kathrine Key they should appear, he having called several tymes, and none compelling the session appoints her to appear on the public place of repentance next Sabbath, for cursing the minister and Session.'
24 June 1655. This day Kathrine Key appeared in the place of public repentance for cursing ye minister and session, she declared her grief for the same. No dittay being about her for witchcraft as so is.
It is more than probable that the accused was thus leniently dealt with, from the salutary influence of the judges appointed by Cromwell at this very period to administer the law in Scotland ; they having expressed their determination to inquire into the tortures that were used to extort confession from the unhappy victims of popular superstition. All ' the witches ' in Newburgh did not, however, escape so easily. In ' Lamont's Diary,' under date November 1661, it is recorded, ' This month, the two
woman in the Newburgh that were apprehended above a year ago for burning Mr Lawrence Oliphant, minister of Newburgh's, house, were hanged at Cuper in Fife, being found guilty by the cise ; also they were accused for witchcraft, because delated by some of ther own neighbours in the town, who were brunt a little before this execution ; but the women did confess nether, but still pleaded innocent of both burning the house and of witchcraft,' A little further on he says, ' 1661, This year there were divers persons both men and women apprehended for witch craft in Lowthian and Edinboroughe, and sundrys of them brunt , also some were taken in Newburgh in Fife and brunt likewise.'
Happily all that remains in this neighbourhood to remind us of the terrible infatuation is the name (fast becoming obsolete) of ' The Witch Wells,' where it is probable the unhappy victims belonging to the parish of Newburgh suffered. The ' Witch "Wells ' were near the farthest off house on the Wodrife Road. There was also ' The Witch Tree,' on the side of the old road beyond Clatchard, now covered over by the line of railway, under whose branches it was firmly believed witches held their nocturnal meetings., (a clootie tree)
The Witches loch above Den of Lindores
i believe Katherine was eventually "wirrit" at the stake a few years later during a witch hunt
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Hi,
Just a thought - have you seen the Maltmans Book of 1762 to 1849. Your Keys should be mentioned in that.
The Maltmen all banded together and put so much into a 'Box' so if they were hit by hard times they could be helped. There are lists of Maltmen throughout those years in there.
It is at the Archives at St Andrews University
Judy
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Heriot-Watt University has an internationally renowned department of brewing and I believe they have historical archives of brewing and brewers in Scotland -
Harry
The archive was transferred to Glasgow University in 1991.
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/sba/aboutsba.html
Imber
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Hi Harry,
Think we must be talking at cross purposes as I took some photos of it at St Andrews in 2011. Maybe not the same book as you were thinking as it was the original.
My Adamsons are mentioned. They were Maltmen in St. Andrews
Judy
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I think you are referring to Imber's post, not mine.
Harry
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Whoops! Harry. Apologies.
Judy :-[
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I live in New Zealand and have an ancestor Thomas Robertson that was apparently born in Fife in about 1813. His parents we are given to understand were John Robertson and Agnes Key married 1808 or John and Elizabeth Key married 1807. In your family trees do you have either of these Key women or do you have a Robertson surname appearing?
your help would be greatly appreciated.
Lyn
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Sorry haven't come across your family.
Judy
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May also be known by 'Kay'?
http://www.onfife.com/kay-james-brewer-crail#
Records stored at Kirkcaldy Galleries - Library, Museum, Art Gallery & Visitor Centre
And this...
http://scottishbrewingheritage.org/buildings.php?p=691
"The Crail Brewery was situated on the High Street and consisted of a group of buildings organised around a courtyard.
The Anstruther Brewery was on Burial Brae, and consisted of a group of buildings organised around a courtyard"
Annie
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I am new here, Interested in placing my ancestor Elizabeth Key, b 1800, m Andrew Brown, who emigrated in 1820 to America, she didn’t follow until much later (1835ish).. he left her behind with their son. I think she might be a daughter of James Key, the brewer and Barbara Christie bc their daughter, b after she joined him in Natchez,MS, was called Elizabeth Christie Brown. Can someone supply full ancestry for this family? Link to one of the genealogy sites? GENI.com? Ancestry.com? Thank you
Margot Miller
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I am looking for the same Key family I think. Elizabeth Key, b 1800, m Andrew Brown, who left her with their son, Andrew, while he went to America. He brought her out inthe late 1830s and they had a daughter, ELizabeth Christie Brown. I am thinking this is the right family bc of the Christie name. Canyou supply full ancestry? Is it on Gen.com? Ancestry.com? Or can you send it to me?
I’d also like to know the origin of the Brown and Christie names... Any chance one of these had a Viking or Danish background? I am trying to work out why 23andMe thnks I have Scandiavian ancestry in the 18th-19th C. I have virtually ALL my genealogy for centuries and there are no Scandiavians...
Thanks for your help
Margot Miller
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I’d also like to know the origin of the Brown and Christie names... Any chance one of these had a Viking or Danish background? I am trying to work out why 23andMe thnks I have Scandiavian ancestry in the 18th-19th C. I have virtually ALL my genealogy for centuries and there are no Scandiavians...
Hi Margot,
I think it's quite possible for an earlier ancestor to have arrived in Scotland from a European country but just because you can't trace further back with a 'paper trail' wouldn't exclude that possibility as many did settle in Britain in various places & probably in Scotland as much as in England/Ireland/Wales.
I'm not a 'History' geek but I do read 'bits & bobs' & have found many place names in Scotland derive from those quarters i.e. I wouldn't discount it.
As an e.g. (I'm not saying I'm correct) but the surname Christie may have morphed over time from Christison or similar which would be similar to the Scottish or Irish equivalents of O' or Mac.
Christison (I haven't looked up any spelling) but to me is son of Christie just as MacDonald would be son of Donald although the Irish 'son of' was 'O' O'Donell (spelling again I haven't looked up) but maybe this will help with your conundrum? ;D
Annie
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I googled the origin of the name Christie and got a hit on a DANISH word meaning ‘cup’ ! So that’s a hint...
I’d like it if someone can contact me on the private messaging service with the genealogy for the Key and Christie families.
this is my third ost, so it might be possible now...
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Hi Margot,
Welcome to RootsChat
Gillian has been notified of your replies by email and has been online earlier this morning, hopefully she will reply to your messages very soon.
Regards
Sarah
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I googled the origin of the name Christie and got a hit on a DANISH word meaning ‘cup’ ! So that’s a hint...
I’d like it if someone can contact me on the private messaging service with the genealogy for the Key and Christie families.
this is my third ost, so it might be possible now...
Blacks Surnames of Scotland lists Christie as a possible diminutive of Christian or Christopher and was most commonly found in Fife although there are records of Chrysty and other variants being used in the 1450's in the Stirling area. Christopher itself is also recorded as an anglification of the gaelic Gille Chriosda (Gilchrist)
Brown as a surname is listed a having numerous origins -
1. an old adjective meaning dark red
2. an anglification of various Gaelic terms and family names
3. an anglification of Norman or french "le brun"
4. an anglification of Brun from the Low Countries
5. An English name
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Hi Margot,
Welcome to RootsChat
Gillian has been notified of your replies by email and has been online earlier this morning, hopefully she will reply to your messages very soon.
Regards
I cannot find GIllian’s posted replies on this string. I got her personal messages but I am looking for the detailed genealogy.... is that somewhere on this site? Other site? Geni.com? Ancestry.com? How do I find it?
Sarah