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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: wdurham on Sunday 11 December 05 12:58 GMT (UK)
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I have traced my father's ancestry back to Isleham in Cambs but have reached a brick wall which I hope someone might be able to help with.
I have a direct ancestor named John Cadman - b Isleham about 1798 (date from various census records so not set in stone) who married Ruth Johnson - b Isleham in 1797 - on 5 Oct 1818 just in time for their daughter Susan's birth in November 1818! Later children were James x 2, Sarah and John. It seems possible that both the first-born James and John died in infancy.
Ruth died in 1829 and in 1830 John Cadman married Ann Thorpe. Their children were John, Mary and George.
I also have another John Cadman, birth date unknown but perhaps between 1760-1770. According to the IGI he married Susanna Pareman on 17 Oct 1789 in Isleham. Their IGI-listed children (plus their christening dates) were Mary 1790, Susanna 1792, Susan 1795, Elizabeth 1802, Sarah 1802 and James 1804.
I believe this second John Cadman might be the father of John Cadman 1798. The family names are all quite common ones, but there is a strong correlation between them, particularly the Susans and Susannas. There is also a very suitable gap in the production of children between Susan in 1795 and Elizabeth in 1802 where John 1798 would fit very nicely!
Anyone have any ideas or information that might help me prove/disprove the link?
I also have Isleham Cadman's in another line deriving from my father - yet another John Cadman - b about 1780, son of Thomas Cadman and Honor. He married Elizabeth and produced a daughter Martha Cadman in 1799. This John Cadman's great-granddaughter Martha Leonard married John Cadman King who was the grandson of John Cadman 1798.
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These burials look like yours?
St Andrew, Isleham, Cambridgeshire, Burials:-
John Cadman 2/6/1827
Ruth Cadman 28/05/1829 age 31
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They are indeed, Victor - many thanks.
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I have a Cadman from Isleham also.
Susan Cadman born approx 1795 in Isleham married James Arnold born approx 1790 also from Isleham.
They had a child called Susan born in 1823 in Isleham who was my 4x great grandmother.
Looks like we are related ;D
Regards, Tom
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I can't actually find your Susans in Isleham, Tom.
I see two baptisms in the Isleham records from that period -
Susanna, bap 22 April d/o John and Susanna in 1792, and
Susan bap 23 August d/o John and Susan in 1795.
But the 1795 Susan died - buried on 1 June 1809, CADMAN Susanna 13 dau of Jno
I can't trace Susanna 1792 in the records beyond her baptism - there's no burial and no marriage. As there was a second Susan baptised just 3 years later, it seems a fair bet that she died at birth or shortly afterwards, and for some reason her burial was not recorded.
I also can't find a James Arnold b around 1790, nor a marriage between James Arnold and Susan Cadman - though they could have married outside the parish, of course. And no baptism of a Susan Arnold in 1823.
Though there is a baptism on 3 April 1825 - ARNOLD Susan d/o Diersley & Mary.
Did your James and Susan, and their daughter Susan stay in Isleham or move on?
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Hi there, strange you couldn't find any Arnold's there.
Susan Arnold (b. 1823) married Henry Musk in 1843 and they lived in Chippenham. Maybe her parents had roots in Chippenham too. In every census she gives her birthplace as Isleham, until her death in 1902.
I will have to look at the Cadman connection a bit more closely, they may have been baptized in a nearby village.
Thanks for you help
Regards, Tom
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There are lots of Arnolds in Isleham, Tom - just no James of the era you sugest that I was able to find.
However, I did find Susan Arnold's marriage to Henry Musk:
9 Nov 1843
Henry Musk, of full age, widower of Pound Lane Isleham, s/o John, lab
Susan Arnold, minor, of Pound Lane Isleham, d/o Diersley
Witnesses: Charles Westley and Geo Fletcher
So it looks as if your Susan Arnold is the one baptised 3 April 1826, d/o Diersley and Mary (Sorry - I said 1825 before, but I mistranscribed it!) Of course, she could have been born earlier - Derisley and Mary baptised James and Ann (possibly twins as they ran in the family) in 1821, and then no more till Susan in 1826, who appears to have been their last. So she could easily have been actually born in 1823.
Interestingly, when you look at the census returns, in 1841, Dazeley and Mary are in Pound Lane with James (a turfman) and Susan aged 20. In 1851, Dazely and Mary have moved to East Fen Drove, where James and Susan aged 30 and 32 plus four children are listed with them as the "lodger" and his wife and family - all born Isleham. James is listed as a Turf Cutter and Dazely as a Pauper. Cjhildren are William 10, Ann 7, Mary 5, Pament 1.
Pamment is interesting, as it is a very well established Isleham family name. James and Susan had two tries for a Pamment - baptised Mar 10 1848 (buried Sept 5) and Mar 17 1851 - so the name must have been important to them. Her maiden name, perhaps?
So back to the marriages in Isleham gives us:
Oct 12 1839
ARNOLD James, minor, bachelor of Pound Lane Isleham, s/o Deirsley lab
PAMMENT Susan minor, spinster of Church St Isleham, d/o of Thomas lab
Witnesses: William PAMMENT, Geo FLETCHER
And the baptism records DO give us this James, baptised 18 Dec 1821 s/o Derisly & Mary
So where was Susan, d/o Diersley and Mary, in 1841?
There is a Susan Arnold, living-in as a female servant aged 15, at Heath Farm in Chippenham, with farmer Thomas Kent and his wife Susanna.
And a Henry Musk, aged 21, living at Sounds Farm in Chippenham, with parents John and Allice and brother Joseph 15. There is a one-year-old baby in the house, Anne Maria. So perhaps Henry had already been widowed by then?
I found his baptism on the IGI - 07 Nov 1819, Cambridge, s/o John and Alice Musk.
So it looks as if you have confused some issues somewhere - your Susan who married Henry Musk is the daughter of Derisley Arnold and his second wife Mary Sanxster. There WAS a slim link between the Arnolds and the Cadmans - a Derisley Arnold was witness at the wedding of John Cadman and Susanna Pareman in 1789, and one of the several Derisley Arnolds and John Cadman were baptised on the same day in 1761, so probably grew up together. All the big Isleham families were heavily intermarried and closely related, like all Fen communities.
If you need any further help from the records, do come back to me - I have them on file.
Wendy
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:) Wow thankyou so much for that, i have found out more in a day than i have in a year about that side of the family.
I think i had James Arnold and Susan Cadman on my tree quite early on in my researchl. I think it came from Ancestry, and as the names seemed to be quite believable for that area i imagine i just added them on.
I've become a lot better recently but i hadn't got quite round to that side of the tree.
Kind regards, Tom
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Hi, I am hoping that you are still receiving alerts if someone messages any of you on this thread. I have recently (5 days ago) started to research my family tree. I am working backwards starting with my Nan. I know the histories take me back to Cambridge and looking at the Census record I have traced 5 generations back so far. However, I am now looking for a John King born in Isleham in 1854. John married a Martha around 1873 and then went on to have Isaac (1873) James (1876) William (1879) Susan (1881) George (1883) Mary (1885) Ada (1888) Arthur (1889) Elizabeth (1892)...and finally...Harry (1896). The only link to marriage I could find kept leading me back to the name 'John Cadman King' who married a Martha Leonard. The dates fit but no one in my family knows the name 'Cadman' I am questioning whether this man is my x 5 great grandfather and Martha Leonard is indeed his wife. If appears correct then it would mean that somewhere down the line I am linked to you somehow.
My possible link to John Cadman King
- Natalie (me)
- Mother - Julie Sloper (nee Bennion)
- Grandmother - Helena Margaret Bennion (1931)
- Great Grandmother - Elsie Ann King (1903)
- Great Great Grandfather - Isaac King (1873)
- Great Great Great Grandfather - John Cadman King (1854 in Isleham - Married Martha Leonard?)
Any response would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Natalie
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Hi, Natalie -
Looks like we do have a link. John Cadman King and his wife Martha Leonard were my great-grandparents. They married in Isleham 4 Jan 1873, and Isaac was their eldest son, born qe June 1873. At some point between then and 1876, the couple moved from Isleham to Fordham, where all their later children were born. I descend from their daughter Mary Jane, born in Fordham in 1885. Mary Jane married James Stephen Watson, and their son Cyril was my father.
I didn't follow up further on Isaac, but according to census returns, he and his wife Susan Gordon produced about 13 children all told, one of whom was a daughter named Elsie, b about 1905. (Another daughter, Gertie b 1903, was a friend as well as cousin of my eldest Aunt, and I remember her talking about "Uncle Isaac" and "Cousin Gertie" when I was little.)
John's middle name Cadman was his mother's maiden surname - which is common in Cambridgeshire, especially where the men's first names carry on through generations. The Cadmans were a big Isleham family, and I have traced them back to about 1740 in Isleham. The Kings were incomers from Chippenham.
Martha Leonard led me a merry dance for months because she was so hard to find. On her marriage to John Cadman King, she was named as Martha Leonard, daughter of Robert. She was actually the daughter of Robert Norman and Susan Harvey, born 3 months after the death of her father from cholera. Robert was the baseborn son of Alice Norman, who later married James Leonard, and it seems Robert was known by both surnames. It's possible he was actually the son of James Leonard, but there's no way of knowing that for sure. He was baptised as son of Alice, and married Susan Harvey as Robert Norman son of James, and in 1851 he and Susan and their baby son James are on the census as Norman. He was buried as Robert Norman. But when Susan registered Martha's birth, she registered her as Martha Leonard, daughter of Robert, and signed herself Susan Leonard. To confuse the issue further, Susan married James Ellington as Susan Norman after she was widowed, and by 1871, although her son James was still known as James Leonard, Martha was in service in Mildenhall using her stepfather's name. All very confusing!
However, I am confident that I did nail the right marriage partners - John Cadman King and Martha Leonard, so there's some solid ground for you to work back from. If I can be of further help, just shout!
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Thank you so much for your reply, I was a little confused at first because I thought Isaac married Ann Gordon but then it makes sense that her name was Susan and possibly 'Ann' was a shortened version. I was also so sure that I had gone wrong somewhere but this is great, you have basically done the work already for me. My nan will be very excited to find out more about her roots. I decided to put your grandparents into my tree as your grandmother is the sister of my Great, Great Granddad Isaac...which would make you...my great grand cousin removed? I am so sorry, you can tell I am a beginner at this. May I ask who you are?
Natalie
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Eeek! My mistake - Isaac's wife was indeed Anne or Annie. Not Susan at all. Obviously a mental block on my part! They were married 30 Nov 1895 in Burwell by banns, him son of John, her daughter of Robert. Witnesses John (x) GORDON, Elizabeth CLAYDON. Everyone working was an AgLab.
As for who am I?
I was born Christine Wendy Watson in 1947, eldest child of Cyril Watson and Christine Cecile King (yes, another King but totally unrelated!)
Cyril was b about 1922, the second-youngest son of James Stephen Watson and Mary Jane King, born after a large gap allegedly caused by James' service in WWI. I have yet to find James Stephen's war records, but suspect there aren't any. Unlike the rest of our AgLab forbears, James Stephen had delusions of grandeur, and was a work-shy "gentleman" who disdained working for others. He claimed noble ancestors in Scotland to account for his "status" (which turned out to be utter nonsense!). Which meant he didn't work at all and the family lived, effectively, on the charity of neighbours and the earnings of the older children.
My father Cyril grew to have a "voice" - some said at the time that he was the best boy soprano in the region - and was offered a scholarship to Kings College Chapel Choir School in Cambridge. My grandfather refused because he would not provide the uniform, which was not covered by the scholarship.
So Dad left school at 14, did a year on the land as yet another AgLab, and then joined the RAF's Boy Service arm at 15. He spent his entire life with the RAF and retired aged 55 after a very honourable and highly-thought of career. During that career he met my mother, who was doing her WWII service in the WAAF, and they married in June 1946 not long before Mum's final demob (and only 7 months before I was born!)
Mary Jane King was the daughter of John Cadman King and Martha Leonard, and was the younger sister of your Isaac King, the eldest son of the same couple.
So that's how we are related.
I have Cadmans and Kings and Harveys back a long way, but finding out for yourself is always the best way to go. Info just given to you by someone else offers no sense of achievement. However, I am always here for you if you need help or confirmation of any of your findings.