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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Gardener on Monday 06 September 04 17:00 BST (UK)
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In the "Heralds visit to Worcestershire in 1569" there is a woman included:
Katharen da. & heire to Wm Walsall Wollashall of Wollashall in com. Worcester garden of the flette. ARMS. - Argent, a wolfe passant sable.
My question is: what does "garden of the flette" mean? Tisn't in my pocket French dictionary so I'm stumped >:( Come to think of it, what is com. short for?
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Have not a clue what flette means and are you sure that says Com and not Corn.
I'm good confusing things lol
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One use of the word flette in French is currently for a ferry boat that crosses the Seine in Duclair, France. They have a relatively flat bottom with a stern ramp that can be lowered to allow easy access e.g. for livestock in days gone by.
However, I would think the word and context you are looking at is medieval in origin and could be old French or old English in origin. There is no reference to flette in my Heraldry book, so I am not sure what to think.
Nell
PS The "com" could be an abbreviation for the French word for County - comté. Just a thought.
Further thought - could this mean that this chap lived by the garden near the ferry??
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I just can't resist...are you sure it wasn't 'dot com'? ;D
Jane
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Ha Ha! Thank you Jane ;D
Fitty - I'm not entirely sure about the com. but think so, it is a scanned transcription which I am looking at and it looks as though it was printed on that nasty paper.
Little Nell - thanks a lot for your suggestions, compté sounds right. Not sure about the ferry, will have to look into the geography.
Oh oh, got to dash - parents meeeting, always something, don't they know I have better things to do!
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Hi
When Grandad James comes om later - he is sure to know what 'flette' means
Over to you Grandad
Chris in 1066Land
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Hi All ..
Nope ,got me stumped as well. ???
Although I feel it is to do with the topography of Worcester,
rather than heraldry. The Arms being described after the word Flette.
I can't recall it right now but I think a friend from Evesham described Worcester in some flowery terms--garden ???
Bet we are giving coogle a bashing ;D
Cheers
Grandad james.
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All joking apart, in the Concise Oxford Dictionary, one meaning of the word. 'fleet' is 'Shallow (of water) at or to no great depth' of Old English origin, fleat
I would agree with grandad James, that it's a geographical feature.
Is there a river or stream in the area that might bear the name of Fleet or Fleat?
Jane
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Just a little extra here. I looked up the word garden in the same dictionary...........
'specially fertile region (the.......of England, Kent, Worcestershire, etc') so a term used in a much broader sense than we use it today!
Jane
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Hi All,
I wonder if the word could be FRETTE .
This is a Heraldry term and it is like the designs one see in those formal box hedge gardens.
I have to go out to a Local History meeting now, but will see what else I can find out , even if it is not a frette , we may find it interesting....
Fretwork also comes to mind..
Grandad james.
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Many thanks for all the suggestions. The queries over the spelling made me wonder if it was possibly "slette". Then it could be flat land I should think but sureley the transcribers would not mistake an s for an f?. I don't have a map of this bit of Worcestershire which is old enough to show it pre-canals but if the quote below is for the same place then either a flat garden or as Jane suggests a shallow water feature would fit (They talk about water meadows don't they?)
I'm nibbling around the idea that Wollashall is the same place as the one in the following quotation which I was sent by some one:
" Walloxall 1274 Court Rolls known as Walluchile. 1275 Wallokeshale.
An Ancient hamlet and gave name to an old family. The meaning according to Duignam is Wealue's meadow land."
As I understand it Wolloxall was where Langley is now and became attached to Oldbury Manor at some point, near Dudley.
Here is the link of the text I am querying, page 69
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Worcestershire/visitations/index.html
Thanks again for the help, it makes such a difference to discuss things.
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Re anyone know what flette means
The word appears in Dante in Paradise Canto 26 In this context it would be an Italian word meaning bending . Quote .......
Come la fronda che FLETTE la cima
nel transito del vento , e poi si leva par la propria virtùche la soblina
Translated
As does a tree that bends its crown because of winds that gust, and then springs up, raised by its own sustaining power , so did I.
so maybe THE GARDEN OF THE FLETTE was probibly subject to prevailing winds.
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How useful to know Italian! Could well be. At least we seem to agree that it must be a descriptive term for the land. Thanks every one :D
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My turn to guess. Flette is no more than an old English form of "flat". Primtive languages tend to use one word to use many things so flette was a punt, or a raft, or the ground floor of a house, or a tilled field that was not on a slope.
In some German derived languages through Dutch the word "vlak" or flat can be used in many ways.
Having said that, I remember when faced with old English that spelling was erratic and words could be spelled differently by various writers. The doubled letter as to distinguish "later" from "latter" was not universal so your flette could just as easily be someone else's flete.
I have doubts about a similar word in renaissance Italian being related but I am just guessing [as I am with most of the rest of this - just feeling a bit mischievous at the moment - its my Prozac, you know].
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According to Websters Dictionary, online version:
It is from the Danish, meaning plait or braid.
Kazza.
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Back then "S" was replaced with "F" so Slette is singular form sletten being Norwegian for farmsteads.
The Vikings did get as far as Worcester although Danelaw was resisted.
Perhaps this translates to: Worcester garden of the farmstead?
If so this implies vegetables and crops were grown in Worcester.
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Interesting thoughts Andy. You have revived yet another old thread from 2004. :) Lets hope the OP returns to let you know if they have managed to solve the puzzle in the intervening years.
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Com means County (in this case 'of Worcester'). It's Latin, short for comitatus.
Melbell
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I wonder if it was Fleet,spelling was a bit haphazard in those days.
There was a river Fleet in London of course and perhaps one near the place
you are interested in.
But it talks about heraldry,arms —-Argent, a Wolfe passant sable.
Silver -a black wolf walking to the right with paw raised to the right.
Try looking for those terms as they could be that family’s arms.
Viktoria.
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"Guardian of the Fleet" seems likely.
Here's a reference to that office from 1627: https://goo.gl/gD3xyQ
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It's probably totally unconnected but a Fletcher is the person who makes the feathers at the back end of arrows.
Martin
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The link to the original source material in reply #10 has expired, so here it is again
https://archive.org/details/visitationcount01mundgoog/page/n85
right-hand page, half way down.
It seems to to me that the reference 'garden of the flette' applies to the person in question, William Walsall.
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Interesting thoughts Andy. You have revived yet another old thread from 2004. :) Lets hope the OP returns to let you know if they have managed to solve the puzzle in the intervening years.
Nope. But I am amazed to see this pulled up after all these years. And thanks for the link to the Visitation book. At least the com. was cleared up. Obviously it means county.
I'm still interested in the Wolloxalls (in all their spellings). I never worked out exactly where the original hamlet was. It is used interchangeably or in conjunction with Langley, and was connected to Hales manor and then the Abbey. But there is quite a bit of landscape in between.
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"Guardian of the Fleet" seems likely.
Here's a reference to that office from 1627: https://goo.gl/gD3xyQ
Reading that 1627 law case it is clear that the title "Guardian of the Fleet" refers to the guardian or warden of the Fleet Prison, not a fleet of ships.
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References to the "Flette" prison:
https://goo.gl/XTxfXT
https://goo.gl/CtBPpA
https://goo.gl/q8oubc
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There are several definitions of "flette" depending which language one chooses,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ndg/
take your pick.
Malky
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I think at some point I decided that "Wollashall" was probably related to Walsall rather than Wolloxall. Interesting how names and place names changed.