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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Devon => England => Devon Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Dizzy Escape on Thursday 24 November 05 12:41 GMT (UK)
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I am beginning to suspect that my gg grandmother, Emma Hamlin, may have come from Bovey Tracey in Devon. I am working on the theory that she was born there in 1836, the daughter of William and Sarah Hamlin. She had two elder brothers, William (b.c1831), John Beer (b.1834) and a younger brother, Walter (b.1837). By the time of the 1861 Census, Emma had moved away (possibly to London), her father was dead, and her widowed mother was living with two of her sons, William (a butcher) and Walter (a miller). Her husband may have died in 1846 or 1848 (there are three deaths of William Hamlins in this registration district in those two years). Much of my theory depends upon the elder William being a butcher, since this is what Emma puts on her marriage certificate in 1864. Emma herself was dead by the time of the 1871 Census and I can't find her in the 1861 Census. I'd be very grateful if someone could look up the Bovey Tracey Census for 1841 and/or 1851 - especially the 1841 Census. Many thanks, Emma
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1851 HO107/1870 Folio 590 Page 60
Bovey Tracey, Devon
Sarah Hamlin widow 45 Butcher Devon Bridford?
William 19 Butcher Devon Moretonhampstead
John 17 Butcher Devon Bovey Tracey
Walter 12 Scholar Devon Bovey Tracey
Albert 9 Scholar Devon Bovey Tracey
Sarah Beer? visitor 88 Devon Ledburn? St Mary
No Emma though :-\
Regards,
Catherine
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Hi Emma, I've found the family mentioned by Catherine in the 1841, again no Emma living with them
William Hamlyn 40 a Butcher
Sarah 35
William 9
John 7 and
Walter 4
all born in county, living at East Street, Bovey Tracey.
Hope it is of use, shall have a look for Emma, all the best, Kate.
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I'm really impressed by the rapid responses! Thank you very much, Kate. Well, I'm pleased to find that William the elder was indeed a butcher, but mystified by Emma's absence. IGI records her christening on 15 May 1836 in Bovey Tracey. The NBI doesn't cover this parish, so I suppose she might have died as an infant, although there's no record in BMD of a death of an Emma Hamlin / Hamlyn in Devon during this period. I've just ordered the death certificate of 1870 so that I can establish beyond doubt the year of her birth. Many thanks. Emma
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The only other Emma Hamlin/Hamlyn's living in Devon in the 41 are as follows
Robert Hamlyn 35 a carpenter
Jane 35
John 12
Mary 9
Edwin 7
Emma 4
George 4 monthes and
Robert 60 a builder
all born in county, living Shaldon, St Nicholas, Devon
James Hamlyn 40 a carpenter
Susan 45
William 25 a carpenter
Philip 20 a carpenter
Mary 10
Henry 8
Emma 6
Edwin 3 and
Samuel 4 monthes
all born in county, living at the Parade, St Andrews, Plymouth. I will see if I can find an emma in the 51 living with another family. Kate.
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Thank you, Catherine, very much indeed for your rapid response! I now know that Emma wasn't on the 1841 Census, either, but that her father was indeed a butcher. IGI definitely records Emma as a daughter of this family, and I suppose she could have gone into service by the age of 15, but what was she doing aged 5?!. With best wishes, Emma
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Dear Kate; dear Catherine,
I can't keep up with either of you! Many thanks. Let's hope we can locate a 4/5 yr old Emma somewhere in the vicinity! At least I can't find any evidence of her death, so my theory might still work! I'd love to prove a Devon connection since my mother's family has hitherto proved irredeemably home counties! Best wishes, Emma
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PS Family oral history tells of an ancestor on this side of the family who was a French prisoner of war in Dartmoor during the Napoleonic Wars, who, when released started out on foot to find his way back home, only to meet and fall in love with a local landlord's daughter called Bertha. A Devon link through the Hamlyns would provide the first indication that this story might have some substance.
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I can't find her on any of the census', maybe they forgot her! I really don't know what could have happened to her. Do you think that maybe she went by a second name?
Kate.
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According to IGI she was christened 'Emma Jane Hamlin', so perhaps she went by the name of Jane as a child. If it is the same person we are talking about, then she was using the name 'Emma' by the time of her marriage in 1864. Mind you, her husband was using his second name, since he was christened Lot Cheeseman and he is calling himself Charles (his father's name and not even an official second name as far as I know) by the time of his marriage. Probably didn't want his wife to be known as 'Lot's wife'! Best wishes, Emma
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The only Jane Hamlin I can find is in service and is aged 11 living with the French family in Rogerswell, North Bovey. The Hamlyn family lived in East Bovey. Kate.
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Sounds good, Kate - maybe that's where the FRENCH story came from!! ;D
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Thanks. I'll let you know if the death certificate throws any light on all of this. By the way, was Jane Hamlin aged 11 in 1841 or 1851? Emma
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Sorry forgot that part. She wa 11 on the 1841' which probably makes it unlikely she is yours. Good luck! Let me know if you need anymore help. Kate.
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The GRO have excelled themselves! I sent off yesterday for Emma Cheeseman (nee Hamlin's) death certificate and it arrived this morning!!!! Standard delivery. What service!
Anyway, she's 35 at her death in Feb 1870 - which again fits in with the Emma Jane Hamlin whose christening in May 1835 IGI records. The question is, am I justified in assuming that William Hamlin was the only butcher called William Hamlin who had a daughter called Emma that year? Can I lay claim to Devon ancestry? I do hope so. Thanks to you all, Emma
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Hi Emma
This is a difficult one. The only facts you have are from her marriage and death certificates so at the moment don't think you should assume the Bovey Tracey Emma is yours. I would be tempted to put out a call for a search for her in 1861 - where was she married? This seems a good starting point for an area where she might be. Have you found her husband in '71 and thus have a birthplace for him?
I would hang onto that Jane Hamlin though - the 11 could have been a misheard 7 or even a wild guess on behalf of the Frenchs, maybe she was a big girl.
Hope you sort this one out.
Jan ;)
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Thanks. I know quite a lot about the family into which she married. They were a Berkshire-based family called the Cheesemans and I have traced them back to the 1740s in two villages there (Beenham and West Ilsley). Emma married a man called 'Lot Cheeseman' ('Lot' because he was the seventh of seven sons and his mother, when he was born, said 'that's the lot'! This is the first piece of family oral history which proved to be true when I began researching and I am now quite excited about the prospect of another piece of oral history becoming more plausible with this possible Devon link. I've been looking into the history of French prisoners of war in Dartmoor and find that officers were allowed to live in one of eight 'parole towns', one of which was Moretonhampstead, where the eldest of Emma Hamlyn's possible brothers was born. This is, of course, circumstantial evidence and doesn't prove anything. However, try as I might, I cannot find any sign of Emma Hamlyn on the 1841, 51 or 61 censuses. (Neither can I find any evidence of the death of the Emma Hamlin who was christened in Devon in 1836.) By the time my Emma was married she was living in Gloucester Terrace in Paddington, so I had hitherto supposed her to be a Londoner, but I've not managed to find any sign of her or her father, William the butcher, in London. Lot was a coachman and he and Emma were living in Rusthall, Kent, when their children were born and this is where Emma died. Presumably his work had taken him here.
By the way, your suggestion that Jane Hamlin might have been a big girl rings true to the family story. The story goes that the Frenchman fell in love with a woman called Bertha. He was small and wiry and she was huge and very strong and could throw big sacks of corn on to carts which two men would usually have to handle! So I suppose Jane might have been a big girl!
Best wishes, Emma
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Can't look her up for full details but there is an Emma Hamlyn born circa 1835 in Devon and living in Devon in 1861 - is she someone you've already discounted? Also a Jane Hamlin born Devon about 1834 and living Devon in 1861.
Jan ;)
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No, I don't know about either of these. How can I get further details? I haven't had any success with 1837.com or with Ancestry.com. Thanks, Emma
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Emma Hamlyn b 1835 is already married to John with 2 children.
Jane is the wife of Henry John and also has 2 children.
I suspect this rules them both out? There is no indication of a previous marriage?
A ;)
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Have you got Emma & Lot on later censuses?
The only CHEESMAN (sic) children I can find who were born in Rusthall have parents Charles & Clara! Also they are living in Sussex?!?
Can you post whatever you have please?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi. Yes, I think the two Devonian Emma/Jane Hamlyns are ruled out if they are already married. Emma's marriage certificate clearly says 'spinster'. Charles Lot Cheeseman remarried in Mar 1871 (Emma having died Feb 1870). His new wife was Clara Verrall, the daughter of Henry Verrall (labourer), and they were both resident in Rusthall. My guess is that, having been left with two children aged 3 and 5 (Emily, b.1865 and Charles, b.1867), and being a coachman, and living a long way from his own family who were still in Beenham, Berkshire, Lot needed a new wife and married Clara, a local girl. (The Cheeseman men have been great remarryers over the generations - it's a family trait!). I am descended through the younger of the two children, Charles (b. 1867), who was my mother's grandfather. He became a butler and his son, Charles Henry (b. 1899), went into music (his father rightly calculated that this would be a way out of a life of being in service). Charles Henry became principal double bass player in the Royal Philharmonic. Incidentally, Charles Lot and Clara went on to have four more children - Robert (1873), Edwin Alfred (1875), Florence Bertha (1876) and Lionel B. (1880). Best wishes, Emma
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Thanks for that Emma - now I can appreciate why you are having such a struggle with this one!
Hadn't previously tried HamBlyn, so might have another go with the additional B!!
A ;)
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I've had another look for Emma/Jane in 1841 under every possible spelling variation I can think of but nothing. Big Jane tossing sacks of corn to a French boy remains the only likely candidate ;D
Hope you can find her in 61 Arranroots :D What about Amlyn or even Omlyn? Going on my own experience of a devon farm Hawksdown being spelt Axdown and Oxdown on occasion.
Jan ;)
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Trying another tack, looking for her father in 1851. So far, no butchers!
What info do you have about her mother & brothers? Are they definitely belonging to her?
A ;)
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Hi Arranroots
Longshot but sometimes they pay-off - could you check image in 1851 for this young lady?
Emma Jane Bearn born Bovey Tracey 1833 living in Devon
Can't find a match for her in 1841 so am wondering if this is a weird mistranscription.
Cheers Jan ;)
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No, correctly transcribed: father William a "taylor", mother Phebe.
:-\
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Shame ;D
Jan ;)
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I've found two death records of people named 'Emma Hamling' in the Newton Abbot area - March 1845 and September 1857. I suppose I ought to send off for them to check whether either of them is the daughter of William Hamlin the butcher of Bovey Tracey.
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I'm sure if you asked the local register office (Newton Abbott?) to check whether either of these Emmas has father William a Butcher they'd do that - might charge something but probably less than the GRO.
Jan ;)
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Hi Emma
Humour me ;D
How did you get the info about Emma's mother & brothers? I know we have to have a father William a butcher, but wondered how firm we are on the rest of the family?
I can find an Emma who is staying with her aunt in Berkshire in 1861, which seems quite logical if she is to meet her future hubby??
Is there any substance to the Devon thing - lovely as Devon is?
Arranroots ;)
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I know nothing about Emma's mother or brothers, unless one makes the leap of faith and decides that she is the daughter of William and Sarah Hamlin in Bovey Tracey - which, I know, is a big leap without supporting evidence. It is the IGI which lists christenings for Emma Jane plus the four boys as children of William and Sarah and the Bovey Tracey censuses make it clear that this William was a butcher. I know I have nothing to go on really, just the fact that I can't find another butcher called William Hamlyn and that the IGI says that this family had a daughter called Emma Jane who was christened in 1836, which would have been about the right time for my Emma Hamlyn who was 35 at her death in 1870.
Do tell me more about the Emma who is staying with her aunt in Berkshire...
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I didn't want to embarrass myself by going off at a tangent! ;D
1861 census RG9/720/132/13
BUTLER Hannah H W 70 - almswoman former schoolmistress - Newbury, Berks
HAMBLIN Emma niece U 28 - dressmaker - Newbury
LANGFIELD Laura niece U 18 - servant - Surrey Walworth
Address: 4 King Johns Almshouses, Newbury, Berkshire
Now you need a William with no Emma at home!
A ;)
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That looks promising :D Unfortunately don't have 1841 for Berkshire. Have looked in 1852 trade directory but couldn't find a butcher called William Hamlyn (various spellings) :(
Jan ;)
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Sorry to put a dampner on things but found that Emma in 1851 with brother Joseph and siblings, Aunt also there. Then in 1861 found the same brother Joseph with father Joseph, a tailor in Almshouses......
Regards,
Catherine
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Just when it was looking good ;D
Jan ;)
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Question: was William Hamlyn deceased at the time of Emma's marriage to Charles/ Lot?
I am finding it difficult to distinguish the facts from the suppositions here!! ;D
It would be a good idea to retrench, not necessarily publicly (!) and review what you know. Have we asked about the witnesses on the marriage cert? Sometimes they can help.
Still mulling this over :)
Arranroots ;)
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Arranroots
You've probably already checked and discounted these in 1851
Emma Hamblin born Berks about 1831 living Berks
Emma Hamblin born Berks about 1837 living Berks
Jane Hamblin born Berks about 1837 living Berks
Jan ;)
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Hello all! Re. the marriage certificate - here is the full info:
30th June 1864: Parish Church, Paddington, Middx
Charles Lot Cheeseman - full age - bachelor - coachman - Parish of Rusthall, Kent - Father: Charles Cheeseman - Labourer
Emma Hamlyn - full age - spinster - no occup - Gloucester Terrace - Fr: William Hamlyn - Butcher.
Married after Banns.
Witnesses: John Mason and Anne Hamlon [sic]
No mention of either father being deceased - but on the other hand I've a number of marriage certificates which have omitted to mention this when I know for certain that the fathers are dead.
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Going on what you have on the Marriage certificate Emma was living in Middx. Have you seen this IGI entry?
Emma Hamlyn born 23rd May 1834, baptised 8th Feb 1835 at St Botolph Bishopgate, London parents William Hamlyn and Johanna
Worth chasing her up in 51 and 61 I would think.
Jan ;)
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I've just been looking up the witness Ann Hanlon to see if there's any sign of her in the 1861 Paddington Censuses. There are two possibilities: Ann Hamlyn (b.c1799), a servant in the house of a clergyman called Charles F. Kingdom. Interestingly, Charles Kingdom was born in Plymouth and Ann Hamlyn in Clovelly, Devon - so the Devon connection strikes again! The other possibility is a Mary Ann Hamlon, a 21 yr old servant from Ireland, employed by the Casolani family.
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I'm back! ;D ;D
Johanna & William HAMLIN found in 1851 in Cornwall - the only ones & he is not a butcher.
Back soon...
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Johanna & William HAMLIN found in 1851 in Cornwall - the only ones & he is not a butcher.
>:( ;D
Jan ;)
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Bizarrely there are two in 1861, but not the same one!
The two I found were both married to Thomases.
Will try again from the William angle, but I think I have "done" all Wm Hamlins in 1851 already.
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Dizzy
Is Anne Hamlon you found unmarried? Just having thoughts of an illegitimate birth ie William Hamlyn may be fictitious or Ann's father (have an example in my own tree where grandfather is given as father).
Jan ;)
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There are no Emmas born 1834 +/- 2 yrs in London/ Middlesex appearing on the 1851 or 1861 census!!
Cat among the pigeons time - have you considered that the family might have come from further afield?
Looking through the Hamlins it strikes me that a big proportion of them are Irish. HANLON is also an Irish name and Paddington was a centre for the immigrant Irish population. Research in Ireland anyone??
;D
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Hi. Yes - the illegitimate possibility had occurred to me, but no, Ann Hamlyn the servant in the Devonian clergyman's household in Paddington in 1861 was married. No sign of a husband, though. Curiouser and curiouser :-\
Hamlin/Hamlyn seems to have strong Devon connections, and Hamlon/Hanlon seems strongly Irish. I'm no good at tracing Irish genealogy, though - especially of immigrants. I've got a number on the other side of the family and have drawn a blank!
PS I've been looking for a possible husband of Ann Hamlyn the witness/servant in Paddington and have had no success in 1861. However, there is yet another Hamlin family in Paddington and again they come from Devon - this lot (Hubert Hamlin and family) are from Exeter. There seems to be a positive enclave of Devonian Hamlyns in Paddington!
PPS I've found another possible Emma Hamlyn in the 1851 Census, this one a seventeen year old house servant in Mile End Old Town, born in Chatham, Kent in c1834. I can't find any other Hamlyns in Chatham, however, apart from a few young male Hanlons in the army barracks there, all of whom come from Ireland. I've put out a request in the Kent section of Rootschat for a search of the Chatham 1841 Census to see if we can establish the name & occupation of this one's father.
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Ann Hamlyn born Clovelly appears to be in Devon in 1851, is she with a husband? and where is she living? Then I can check her in 41
Jan ;)
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You're quite right. She's in Bideford in 1851 with her husband and family, and her husband is called William Hamlyn (b. Clovelly). However, he's an agricultural labourer. And there are four sons and a daughter, but again, no Emma. The daughter is called 'Eleanor' and she's 8 yrs old.
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Is it Ann HAMLYN b 1798?
She is at Uppacott Cottage, Bideford with husband William (!) who is an ag lab ( :()
There is also a younger Ann & a Mary Ann, but too young I suppose? 1830 & 1842 respectively.
A ;)
Ah - you found them - unless William retrained??
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Guess what I can't find Ann and William in 41 >:( ???
There is an Ann Hamlyn 40 with a daughter Emma age 10 but the gentleman she's with is Giles and he's a baker ;D.
Re occupation of William it could be misleading - I have an example where a deceased father's occupation is given as cattle dealer but on all censuses he is an innkeeper. He may well have dealt in cattle too but that isn't recorded. So possible an Ag Lab could be the village pig sticker say and if he cut the pigs up as well he could easily become a butcher in Emma's eyes.
Jan ;)
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Hello, Jan. I've made a bit of a breakthrough using 'The Genealogist' website. Guess who I've found in the St Giles & Bloomsbury workhouse in the 1841 Census:
William Hamlyn, butcher, aged 60, not born in county.
I've found what looks as if it could be his death, too - in the March quarter of 1843, in the St Giles district. I'll send off for it and report back.
This may tie in with your idea about William and Johanna Hamlyn, who had a child named Emma who was christened in St Botolph, Bishopsgate in 1835. IGI also records a marriage between a William Hamlyn and a Johanna Sullivan in 1834 in the Old Church, St Pancras. Of course, the Devon connection may still be there, since he wasn't born in the county, but I've no idea how I'll trace him further back.
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Hamlyn & Sullivan still sounds Irish to me - then you have BIG problems!! ;D ;D
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That's good Dizzy - now you need to track down Emma in same area in 1841 hopefully living with a Johanna ;D
Jan ;)
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No sign of Johanna & 5 yr old Emma in London in 1841, sadly - yet! ;) For those who are interested, I've come across an 'HHH' website (Hamley, Hambley, Hamlyn), which claims West Country heritage for these families for seven centuries, especially CORNWALL, DEVON, GLOS. and SOMERSET. Apparently there are also branches found in BERKS., HANTS., NORFOLK, SUFFOLK or SUSSEX. Also in EAST YORKSHIRE.... so there are quite a lot of places to look when I come to trying to trace William the butcher's county of origin!
PS There is actually an Emma Hamlin, aged 5, who in 1841 is just around the corner from William Hamlyn who is languishing in the Bloomsbury Workhouse. She is living in St Pancras with her parents Robert & Hannah, and elder and younger siblings. (It is clear from the 1851 Census that she is a daughter.) Robert Hamlin is a carpenter and later an organ builder - from Devon.
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Do you think it possible that Robert is related to William and he and Hannah adopted Emma if Johanna died ??? :-\ Another avenue to pursue perhaps and with a Devon connection :D Keep us posted of further developments.
Jan ;)
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Yes - that's an idea. I'd been wondering whether Hannah was actually Johanna, too. I'll let you know if William Hamlin's death certificate throws any light on all this. There's always a chance his death was reported by a family member, although we might find that someone from the workhouse performed that function. :-\
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Yes I was wondering whether Hannah was Johanna - are she and Robert together as husband and wife in 1851 ( not that that means anything she still might have been William's widow living as his brother's wife ) Also wondered if the Ann Hamlon on the marriage certificate was Johanna. Tis certainly a puzzle but it wouldn't be half so much fun if it all fell easily into place :D
Jan ;)
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Oh, I wish it would fall easily into place! :D For the record, I should flag up that there is a Johanna Hamlyn whose death is recorded in the March quarter of 1840. However, this is in Newington, which is over the river, so I shall wait to see what William's death certificate tells me before sending off for this one. I suppose we can assume that Mrs Hamlyn (Emma's mother) was somewhat younger than William, given that he is 60 when Emma was 5.
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Let us know what the death certificate tells you
Cheers Jan ;)
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Hi. Death certificate has just arrived:
5 January 1843 at St Giles Workhouse: William Hamlyn Male 61 yrs (could be 66 yrs) No occupation mentioned :( ; cause of death: diseased bladder; informant: Robert Busey(?), occupier of St Giles Workhouse.
So - no family member to verify our theories :-\ but confirmation that this is probably the same chap as listed on the 1841 Census - i.e., William Hamlyn, aged 60, butcher, resident at St Giles Workhouse.
Perhaps I should send off for the death certificate of the Johanna I found in Newington. Any other suggestions as to where to go from here?
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What a shame! I am still following and hoped there might be something to assist you on the cert!
Plan to reread the thread and see where you have got to. It is getting a bit difficult to follow. maybe you should post all the known facts in a summary at this point?? It might make clearer what we haven't tried.
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi
Shame about the certificate :( but at least it would appear to be the same man you found in 41. However this baptism
Emma Hamlin born 26th June 1836 baptised 28 Aug 1836 Old Church St Pancras parents Robert and Hannah Hamlin
would seem to disprove theories we had about it being your Emma in 41 living with Robert and Hannah :'( Although being Old Church they may be a related family.
I think I would send for that Johanna death certificate.
Also think Arranroots idea of summarising the facts so far would help clarify things.
If Johanna is dead by 41 and William in the workhouse where is Emma? Not in the workhouse with him? back in Devon with family? assuming Wiliam is related to Robert and hails from there. But if she is we haven't found her - except for big Jane and where is she in 51 and 61 ??? >:(
Jan ;)
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Hi Arranroots! Thanks for your continuing interest! :)
Ok, here goes, expunged of all my romantic stuff about French prisoners of war etc! ;)
Emma Hamlyn m. Charles Lot Cheeseman on 30 Jun 1864 in the Parish Church, Paddington, Middx; (both full age), he a coachman, no employment given for her; he's living in Rusthall, Kent; her address is given as Gloucester Terrace; his father was Charles Cheeseman, labourer (of Beenham, Berkshire), and her father was William Hamlyn, butcher.
Witnesses: John Mason & Anne Hanlon
They had two children: Emily (1865) and Charles (1867). Don't know what became of Emily. I have Charles' birth certificate. He was my great grandfather:
19 Apr 1867, Denny Bottom, Rusthall - boy - Charles
Father - Charles Lot Cheeseman - coachman (domestic servant)
Mother - Emma Cheeseman, formerly Hamlyn
Emma died in 1870 and I have her death certificate:
27 Feb 1870, Rusthall, Emma Cheeseman, 35 yrs old, wife of Charles Lot Cheeseman, coachman;
phthisis pulmonalis 5 yrs certified
C.L. Cheeseman, present at death, Rusthall
Charles remarried the following year:
21 Mar 1871, St Paul's Church, Rusthall, Kent: Charles Lot Cheeseman (widower) & Clara Verrall (spinster); both of full age; he's a groom; both resident in Rustall; frs: Charles Cheeseman and Henry Verrall, both labourers.
Witnesses: Adam Lattimer & Frances Huckle.
I know all about the Cheesemans in Berkshire and am now trying to trace the Hamlyns.
We have found only two William Hamlyns who were butchers and who seem to have had daughters called Emma around 1835, when our Emma would have been born:
1) William Hamlin of Bovey Tracey, Devon.
IGI records the christening of an Emma Jane Hamlin, the daughter of William & Sarah Hamlin, in Bovey Tracey on 15 May 1836. We know from the 1841 Census that William Hamlin of Bovey Tracey was a butcher, although there is no mention of an Emma among his children in 41 or later censuses. We know from the 1851 Census that he was dead by then and his widow and eldest son have taken on the butchering business. There are records in the Newton Abbot district between 1846 and 1848 of three deaths of men called William Hamlin, one of which is probably him.
2) William Hamlyn of St Giles & Bloomsbury Workhouse, London, described as a butcher aged 60 in the 1841 Census, not born in the county (i.e, Middx). His death certificate records that he died on 5 January 1843 aged 61 yrs (possibly 66) of a diseased bladder; his death is reported by an occupier of the workhouse, Robert Busey. No occupation is mentioned. We know from IGI that an Emma Hamlyn, the daughter of William & Johanna Hamlyn, was christened at St Botolph, Bishopsgate 8 Feb 1835 (b. 23 May 1834). IGI also records the marriage of a William Hamlyn and a Johanna Sullivan on 6 Aug 1834 at the Old Church, St Pancras.
We know that a Johanna Hamlyn died in the Newington area (Surrey) in the March quarter of 1840, so perhaps the next step is to send off for this certificate to see if she's the wife of a William, butcher.
That's all!
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And hello Jan! Sorry, our posts crossed. Yes, I'll send off for the certificate. Yes, of course, thanks for pointing out Emma, daughter of Robert & Hannah's baptism. That does indeed preclude our theory that our Emma was living with them in 1841. Hmmm :-\ Forgot about big Jane!
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Hello, people! I think I'm going to have to admit defeat on the Hamlyn front. :-[ Johanna Hamlyn who died in Newington in 1840 was 64, so not the mother of Emma (b. 1835). Frustratingly, she is described as the wife of ___ Hamlyn (Warehouseman)! - in any case, clearly not a butcher.
Back to square one. Can't think where else to go. Any suggestions?! :-\
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No suggestions at the moment Dizzy. Will let you know if anything comes to mind. Don't admit defeat just put Emma and family aside and go off burrowing for something else - in my experience new info often pops up when you're not looking for it :D
Cheers Jan ;)
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Hello people. No progress on the Emma Hamlyn front until today, when I checked her on the new ancestry.com 1841 census site. There's a six year old Emma in the Shoreditch Nursery for Poor Children. This ties in nicely with her father William's fate in 1841 - if indeed this is her father - because he's in the Bloomsbury Workhouse. Still don't know who her mother is.
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That's exciting Dizzy. If only Johanna would turn up - dead or alive - if she is the mother of course :D
Jan ;)
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Hello, again. A little more progress .... perhaps. Pallots Marriage List records four weddings involving William Hamlyns and the brides, dates and places are as follows:
Kezia Weeks - 1828 - St Leonard's, Shoreditch
Johanna Sullivan - 1834 - St Pancras
Eleanor Gasking - 1829 - St Pancras
Mary Laskey - 1797 - Lustleigh
I think we can rule out Mary Laskey because 1797 is far too early. We know that Johanna Hamlyn died in Newington in 1840 aged 64, so I think we can rule her out. I found Eleanor Gasking in the 1841 Census with her husband and parents in Babbicombe, Devon, and her husband is a joiner. So that leaves Kezia. Unfortunately I cannot find any Kezia Hamlyns in the censuses and I cannot find a reference to the death of a Kezia Hamlyn (perhaps she died before 1837 - in childbirth, perhaps? (Emma was born in 1834/5.) I suppose the next step is to get access to the marriage register of St Leonard's, Shoreditch. Not sure whether anyone's put it on CD / commercially available microfiche, so perhaps the next step is a visit to the London Metropolitan Archives, where St Leonard's records are kept.
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Hi Dizzy
Before you throw Johanna out remember you have the 8th Feb 1835 baptism of Emma Hamlyn in St Botolph Bishopgate parents William Hamlyn and Johanna. The death you found is therefore unlikely to be her.
Good luck and keep us posted
Jan ;)
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William and Johanna also have a daughter Ann christened in Bishopgate - possible for the witness at Emma's marriage ??? :-\
Jan ;)
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Sorry - yes of course, Johanna is, then, still very much in the picture. And yes, Anne 'Hanlon' witnessed the marriage, though I'm slightly doubtful about the connection here, since the name is spelt 'Hamlyn' for both Emma and William. Hmmm.
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PS you don't know whether the Butchers' Guild has nineteenth records of individual members, do you?!
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No idea about the butcher's guild - have you tried googling?
Re Ann Hanlon bit of a longshot that she is Emma's sister but I suppose the name could be spelt differently because of how she signed her name in the original register ?? Not that it helps all that much anyway :D
If you can get to see the original baptism entry there is a good chance it will give William's occupation - so fingers crossed
Jan ;)
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Good point about the signature. I think a trip to London is in order - goodness knows when! Will let you know what I discover - if anything.
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Looking forward to the next installment
Jan ;)
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Ok, Jan, here's the 'next instalment' - though it's only a small jigsaw piece. I've just found William Hamlyn, butcher, in Pigot's 1839 Directory. His address is 7 Lumber Court, Seven Dials - which is just down the road from the St Giles & Bloomsbury Workhouse in which he was incarcerated two years later. There's also a Henry Hamlyn, a porkman, living/working at 18 Lumber Court, Seven Dials. Still haven't got down to London to look at records in the Guildhall Library. All best, Emma
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Hi Emma
Every little piece helps :D
By the way I've just discovered one of mine was born in Shorts Gardens which is where St Giles Workhouse is.
Regards Jan ;)
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What a coincidence! Unfortunately, the St Giles Workhouse admission and discharge records held at the London Metropolitan Archives only date from 1871, so these won't be of any use to me. Still don't know whether the Worshipful Company of Butchers' Guild has any relevant archives - can't find anything on their website. But I reckon the next step is still to check out those christening registers at St Botolph Bishopsgate. All best, Emma
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Hi, Jan,
Breakthrough!!!! :D
I discovered that a William Henry Hamlyn was born in St Giles in the Fields and St George Bloomsbury in 1837 and sent off for the birth certificate in the hope that his father was our William. He was! William Henry Hamlyn was born on 2 August 'at 5 o'clock in the morning' at 18 Lumber Court. His father was William Henry Hamlyn, butcher, and his mother Sarah Hamlyn, formerly Carr. The birth was registered by the father. An immediate trawl through the obvious websites has come up with a tantalising entry on IGI - 'William Henry Hamlyn and Sarah Carr are listed as having married 'in London' on 20 Oct 1835. So I don't know which church! The film number is given as 184220, page number 954, ref. no. 21366. Do you happen to know whether it's possible to send off for more details on the basis of this?
I've searched for Sarah Hamlyn in the censuses and have found an intriguing entry in Jersey in 1851, where a Sarah Hamlyn 'unmarried', aged 47 is working as a 'maid of all works' in a household where there is a groom called 'William Ca??' (ink splodge) aged 21, both Sarah and William being born in Plymouth.... I wonder...!
Any further suggestions gratefully received!
Best wishes,
Emma
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How exciting Emma :D
Shame that marriage isn't an extracted record. I think you can view the film at your nearest LDS family history centre - think you have to order it but I haven't ever done this. If you can't fathom it out from the familysearch site post a query in the Common Room and some knowledgeble soul will help you out.
Don't know about that Sarah in Jersey - in 41 there is a Sarah Hamlyn Female Servant 35 in Plymouth (Charles the Martyr) who could well be the same lady. Though guess that doesn't rule her out.
Jan ;)
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Okay - next instalment! I finally got down to the Guildhall Library today - to check those St Botolph Bishopsgate baptisms of Ann and Emma Hamlyn, the daughters of William and Johanna Hamlyn (both christened in Feb 1835 but born in May 1832 and May 1834 respectively). William is indeed a butcher :D and his address is 'Seven Dials' - i.e., he is the butcher listed working at Lumber Court, Seven Dials in the 1839 Pigot's Directory and therefore presumably the father of William Henry Hamlyn who was born there in 1837, by which time he is married to Sarah nee Carr.
I also took the opportunity to go through the Freedom Registers of the Worshipful Company of Butchers (from 1796 onwards) but there was no sign of a William Hamlyn.
Now I must get back down to London to check the St Pancras marriage registers at the London Metropolitan Archives for the wedding of William Hamlyn and Johanna Sullivan on 6 Aug 1834.
All best, Emma
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Fantastic ;D It is all coming together - it is as exciting as finding ones of my own.
Actually I have recently found some more of mine in the same area - St Martin in the Filelds - a rush of wills which have fleshed things out a lot.
Look forward to your next update
Jan ;)
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Hi, Jan. Got down to the London Metropolitan Archives, finally, and found the entry for William Hamlyn's marriage at Old Church, St Pancras. It reads as follows:
William Hamlyn, Widower of this Parish, and Johanna Sullivan, Spinster of this parish, were married by Banns 6 Aug 1834. Both signed (i.e., were literate). The witnesses were Elizabeth Ridge and Jane Keane. No mention of occupation, alas. By Aug 1834, 'our' William Hamlyn (butcher) had two daughters, Ann (b. May 1832) and Emma (b. May 1834). Admittedly, they only got around to christening them in Feb 1835, by which time they were 'respectable', I suppose. But I'm still dubious. It begs a number of questions:
1. Why did they christen the children in St Botolph Bishopsgate when they were living in the parish of St Giles, Holborn (as it says in the St Botolph registers)?
2. This couple were 'of this parish' (St Pancras) in Aug 1834, whereas in Feb 1835 we know they were living in the parish of St Giles in 'Lumber Court'.
3. If William was a widower, I suppose Johanna might have been his mistress and this might have been the earliest opportunity for him to wed the mother of his two daughters. Would they then have been given his surname?
All ideas welcome!
I suppose I'd better get back down to the London Metropolitan Archives to search for the death of William's first wife! (I've just had a brainwave and have checked the NBI for Hamlyn burials in London during the relevant years, but sadly have not come up with anything except a Jane Hamlin who was buried in Clerkenwell in 1827 aged 35.)
All best,
Emma
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Hi Emma
I wonder how old Johanna was when they married - just thinking she may have been underage? I'm sure I've read somewhere St Pancras Old Church was one of those churches where you could marry even if you didn't live in the parish - oh just seen they were of this parish but maybe only temporarily so that Johanna could marry without consent by lying about her age?
As for the christenings - my Childs family only ever appear to have lived in the parish of St Giles but all the children were baptised in St Martin in the Fields ???
Jan ;)
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Hmmm. I'll let you know if I make any progress on my next London trip! Oh, dear, I don't know why this particular problem obsesses me so much!!!
All best, Emma
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Hi there, sorry to push in on your chat, but wondered if you could help. I have an ancestor, James Cheeseman b 1792 d 1856 - he married a Rebecca Wale and had at least one daughter, Phoebe, who married William Sawyer. My cheesemans were living in/near Camberwell/St Giles Peckham. Rebecca was apparently born in Maidenhead. I wonder if they could be part of the cheeseman family of which you write? Would be grateful for any information. Cheers!
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You're very welcome to join in this chat! I'm afraid I can't find a Cheeseman connection with my lot yet. Mine were mainly based in Beenham and West Ilsley in Berkshire and before that I think they may have been in Ramsbury in Wiltshire. And then my ancestor, Lot, went to the Tunbridge Wells area as a coachman. But I'll let you know if I stumble across any links with yours. Many thanks, Emma
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Hi Merrywoods
Welcome to Rootschat :D
Hope you have as much fun as I have
Regards
Jan ;)
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Hi Emma
Have you found out anymore about your Emma Hamlin and family?
I didn't realise it was 2006 that we last spoke :o ;D
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan, thank you so much! Really hoping I may find out some information that I thought beyond my capabilities at the moment. Still getting used to the whole genealogy website protocol and practices - guess I'll learn as I go. :) cheers!
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Hi Emma, thank you for your reply :) - I'm in Australia so I don't really understand how close one place is to another (I do look them up on a Map most times) - but may be mistakenly naming a church as a parish or village. In Australia there are such long distances and relatively few people. I thought that because James' wife was from Maidenhead which seemed relatively close to Beenham that he might have come from there originally. If you do "happen" upon a connection in your travels I'd be grateful if you let me know. "Cheeseman" is obviously a more common name than I knew! Good luck in your searching! Cheers
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Eleven years on, how is the search going?
It seems as though you have focussed the search away from Devon and towards London
Hi, Jan. Got down to the London Metropolitan Archives, finally, and found the entry for William Hamlyn's marriage at Old Church, St Pancras. It reads as follows:
William Hamlyn, Widower of this Parish, and Johanna Sullivan, Spinster of this parish, were married by Banns 6 Aug 1834. Both signed (i.e., were literate). The witnesses were Elizabeth Ridge and Jane Keane. No mention of occupation, alas.
Just to clarify the Devon William and Johanna (my ancestors, but your red herring?):
William HAMLYN (1769-?) married Johanna HENLEY (1776-?) 29 Mar 1796 Torquay St Mary
their son William HAMLIN (1801-1846) married Sarah BENNET (d1881) 23 Mar 1830 Moreton Hampstead.
William and Sarah are buried in Bovey Tracey - the gravestone survives.
I appreciate that this may not help your search, but it could help other Hamlyn hunters.
Philip
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I'm sorry - this is a very late reply!
Thank you for enquiring. As it happens, I've recently made a breakthrough with this couple. I found a detailed account of them in Ancestry's Poor Law records from the London Metropolitan Archives. There is a postscript appended to the parish's consideration of Johanna Sullivan's case explaining that she had her two daughters, Ann (1832) and Emma (1834) out of wedlock, but both were the daughters of William Hamlyn, whom she subsequently married in St Pancras Old Church in August 1834. He was a widower at that point, so perhaps he only married her when he was free to do so. By 1940 William and Johanna were both in St Giles in the Fields workhouse. The two girls were in Acton and Shoreditch (I know Emma was at the Shoreditch nursery for poor children). William died in the workhouse in January 1843, so appears in the 1841 census. But I can't find Johanna Hamlyn in 1841 or in any remarriage or death records, so I'm still at a loss as to her age and place of birth and parentage - just as I still have no idea where William was born.
Thanks for your continuing interest after all these years! Emma
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Glad to hear you've had another breakthrough Emma
Jan
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Further developments!
I've realised that William Hamlyn, butcher of Seven Dials, London, was not one and the same as William Henry Hamlyn, butcher of Seven Dials, London (as is assumed by everyone else on Ancestry etc). William Henry Hamlyn was William Hamlyn's son. Everything makes sense now. William Henry Hamlyn was baptised at St Giles in the Fields in 1810, the second child of William and Grace Hamlyn. He later married Sarah Carr and emigrated in about 1840 (possibly when his father went into the workhouse) to Quebec and had most of his children there.
So I've been searching for a William Hamlyn marriage to a Grace prior to their first child being born in 1808 and the only one I can find is in Wembury in Devon in December 1800 - to a Grace Cornish. He remarried in 1834 - to Johanna Sullivan. Elsewhere on Rootschat I've posted a request for handwriting experts who might be able to decide whether the two signatures of William Hamlyn are written by the same hand. Of course, with 34 years between them, there was plenty of time for alteration, but my hunch is that it is one and the same man, although I will have to account for the gap between the marriage and their first child being born in 1808.
The other thing I now know about him is that he had a brother, Henry, in whose house his second child by Johanna, prior to their marriage, was born. I might add that we already know that William was not born in Middlesex (1841 census).
If I am right about the signatures, William was from Plymouth.
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Great to see all the discoveries you have made recently. I hope Johanna turns up at some point!
Jan