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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: bearkat on Saturday 05 November 05 18:56 GMT (UK)
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Looking for John Graves WYATT born Smithfield 1820.
Any ideas which church he would have been baptised in?
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Start with "The Priory Church of St Bartholemew the Great" which is the main church in the area. Also the church after which Barts Hospital is named.
David
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Thank you
Are the records at the LMA or Guildhall Library?
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The registers are in Guildhall Library. You will find all deposited registers for the City there.
David
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Try the Hugh Wallis website
www.freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hughwallis
This is a complimemtary site to the IGI that can be searched by church then by surname.
good luck
Meliora
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Many thanks for the link to Hugh Wallis' site.
Sadly baptisms for St Bartholomew the Great are not included :(
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This is an extract from the Corporation of london website at:
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/leisure_heritage/libraries_archives_museums_galleries/JAS/jas.htm
Joint Archive Service (JAS) was created in 2002. It was formed after a merger of similar departments within the Corporation of London. It is comprised of three distinct sections:
The London Metropolitan Archives (LMA) is situated in Clerkenwell and is the largest local authority record office in the United Kingdom. It is an invaluable resource for the history of London and Londoners, holding records and archives coving a period of nearly 900 years stored on almost 65 kilometres of shelving!
The Corporation of London Records Office (CLRO) holds the records of the Corporation of London stretching back over 900 years. It is currently based at the Guildhall, but will soon be moving to the LMA site at Clerkenwell in order to stay open during building works at Guildhall.
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Thanks.
There doesn't seem to be anything for John Graves WYATT on the IGI so it looks as if a trip to London will be needed.
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I'm still looking for the baptism of John Graves(Groves) WYATT born around 1819.
Thought I'd solve this query by looking at the new online records for London but no joy. :'(
He's fairly consistent about his place of birth:
1851 Middx, City
1861 Smithfield
1871 Smithfield, London
1881 Smithfield
On his marriage certificate it says his father was Jeremiah, a hairdresser.
I can't find a Jeremiah WYATT on the census so I presume he had died by 1841.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. :D
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Hi
On John Graves Wyatt's second marriage 28th September 1847 at All Hallows Poplar John Graves Wyatt was the hairdresser but his father Jeremiah Wyatt's occupation was given as butcher. In 1851 John Graves was a baker.
From the names of his children and his death registration it seems consistently Graves.
With the absence of any burial for Jeremiah Wyatt or a marriage for Jeremiah or a baptism for John Graves Wyatt, it brings into question whether Jeremiah Wyatt existed and whether John Graves Wyatt was born illegitimately in which case you might be looking for a John Graves/Groves baptism or a John Wyatt baptism whose father was Jeremiah Graves/Groves.
Have you found John Graves Wyatt's first marriage? Are the details about his father consistent?
There is a burial in Southwark in 1845 of a Rachel Graves Wyatt aged 27
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Thanks for looking at this.
Yes, his first marriage was to Rachel. She died of tuberculosis. I did get a marriage certificate for a John Greaves WYATT to a Rachel TAYLOR in 1841 in Bradford registration district but his father wasn't Jeremiah so I dismissed it - perhaps I should dig it out again. ???
His second wife's first husband was a baker so perhaps he just took over the business.
I wonder if this is John in St John Horsleydown in1841 HO107/1087/7 Folio 35 Page 13 ???
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Being a butcher ties in very nicely with the meat market at Smithfield.
Still can't find a suitable baptism though :-\
Dawn
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Hi
Please 'dig out' the details of the John Greaves Wyatt marriage to Rachel Taylor and let's see what it says - for instance what was John's occupation?
It is the only instance on the civil registration of Greaves as a middle name with Wyatt so it is a possibility that it should be Graves.
If it looks likely for John, but the father's details are different then that makes it even more likely that he was in fact illegitimate.
The 1841 census entry looks a good possibility.
Regards
Valda
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The marriage certificate is still lost in a pile of papers :-\ but I have found it indexed online. :D
Looks promising now I look at it again.
30 November 1841 at Pudsey
John Greaves WYATT of full age, bachelor, hairdresser of Low Pudsey, father William WYATT, butcher married Rachel TAYLOR of full age spinster of Low Pudsey father Thomas TAYLOR a hairdresser.
witnesses : Richard Hanson, Job Ingham
Low Pudsey is between Bradford & Leeds.
What was he doing 'up there'?
Perhaps he invented a father. ???
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Hi
It does look promising since you have that combination of occupations again - John as a hairdresser and his father, whoever he was as a butcher.
Regards
Valda
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Coincidentally, in 1841, Frances Lomas/x, his second wife, is living about 35 miles away from Pudsey in Kimberworth, near Rotherham.
There is a baptism at about the right time, 25 Dec 1818, in Pudsey - John GREAVES to William and Sarah of Fartown but William is a clothier. The trouble is that I think I've found that John GREAVES still in Yorkshire working as a clothier in 1841.
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I've now realised why I can't find the marriage certificate - I sent for it, stipulating that the father was Jeremiah so, of course, they wrote back saying it wasn't the correct entry. :-\
Just shows that ploy doesn't always work as this looks to be the right man. I wonder if he really was born in London. ???
Not sure about his father being Jeremiah or William though. :-\
You think if he made him up he would have stuck with the same name. ???
I'll post a request on the Yorkshire board to see if anyone can shed any light on John or Rachel.
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Hi
Yes and no since I have an example of an illegitimate man who married 4 times - different information in the father column each time. After all who is going to check. The one thing that is consistent for John is however the occupation and on the censuses the birthplace - Groves, Graves and Greaves is a bit fluid though, but I think it probably is Graves because that is the one that endures not just in John's name.
Regards
Valda
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I've been looking at the records for Calverley, Yorkshire and WYATT does not seem to be a local name .
How complete are the London records?
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The staff at the LMA are trying to find out what's still to go on-line.
Your best bet at the moment is not to search by name but to scroll to the bottom of the search screen, click on borough and then see which churches are returned. Clicking on a church then gives a list of dates.
Dawn
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Thank you - I will give that a try. :D
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Hi I have many Wyatts in London before 1924 who were Butchers, Tripe Dressers
any dates for William ? my Gt Gt Grandfather William Wyatt was a London Butcher born 1829.
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John WYATT was born circa 1819 so his father, whether he was William or Jeremiah, would have been born before 1800.
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my earliest Wyatt is Benjamin born 1831 (b Stoke Newington) and his wife Hannah nee Williams he was shown as a coal merchant in 1871. A daughter married into my maternal side of the family so have no further info other than his children who numbered 9 at last count.
Alan nz
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I am connected to the Horne line of Oxfordshire via Elizabeth Wyatt, my Wyatts came from Islip Oxfordshire to London in 1822. Theu go back to the 1550s , and Wyatts were in the same few villages back into the 1440s
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well that's a coincidence I have connections with the Hornes as well although they have no known link to the Wyatts. My earliest Horne is William John born 1886 Henley on Thames the later ones are all from Great Tew.
Alan NZ
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Hi
Can I suggest if you want to find out more about your Wyatts in London that either a new topic is started on the London and Middlesex board and/or Oxfordshire or else I split this coversation about other Wyatts and connections in Oxfordshire from bearkat's topic as it doesn't really have anything to do with bearkat's posting.
Regards
Valda
co-moderator London and Middlesex board
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Thank you, but Re The Oxfordshire Wyatts who went to London early 19thc , They were Butchers and Smithfield is a meat market connected with Butchers for over 400 years
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Hi
I can see your ancestor George Wyatt a butcher born Islip Oxfordshire baptised 30th May 1790 parents George and Ann, and his wife Harriet Henrietta born Oxford circa 1793 briefly lived in Eagle Street Holborn about a mile away from Smithfield in1823 and 1824 when two of their sons were baptised at St George the Martyr Holborn. This seems the nearest the family geographically was to Smithfield, moving further away to the Pancras and Marylebone area certainly by 1830.
On the 1851 census William Wyatt born Islip baptised 7th October 1798 parents Thomas and Ann, a warehouseman was living in Clerkenwell married to Sarah Thompson at St George Hanover Square in 1822. The family was in Shoreditch in 1841 where William was a publican but the baptism of their children show them to be in Southwark from 1823 onwards.
Did George have a sister Elizabeth? Are you thinking she might have had an illegitimate son in the Smithfield area - John Graves Wyatt? There doesn't seem to be a baptism in Islip of an Elizabeth Wyatt or indeed any female Wyatt to either George or Ann, or Thomas and Ann, or Thomas and Sarah, who appear to be the only Wyatts baptising children in Islip between 1790 and 1809.
Smithfield has been a market in London for over 800 years.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
You have a great amount of information on my line.
Elizabeth Wyatt was baptised 2 Nov 1788 in Islip, she married in 1813 George Haskins of Murcott ( a few miles away) and had 9 children, two of whom were Murcott Wheelwrights. It is possible she had gone to London before this marriage
before being 25 years old. But she had children baptised Charlton on Otmoor in 1816, 1819 and 1820. I don't know!
Re Thomas and Ann, George Wyatt born 1790, had an older cousin Thomas Wyatt born 1772 in Islip, he could have been this the same one, who had a son William born 1798 in Islip. If so this is news to me, thank you. I wonder what happened on from 1841.
George born Islip 1790, had half his children born / baptised in Islip and half from 1823 onwards bap in Holborn and Hampstead Rd London. He had a son William bap 1818 buried 1820 Islip. Another the eldest was John Couldrey Wyatt born 1814 in Islip, died in London a Master Tripe Dresser. His mother was of an established Oxford Tripe business family called Couldrey. George had a brother John bap 1791 Islip, who very likeley was a Butcher and also went on to London. I know nothing of him. George certainly must have visited London before taking his Butchers shop there c.1822. Was he the illegitamate father of another John seems unlikely... but?
Kind regards
Andrew
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Hi
If Elizabeth married in 1813 she wouldn't be the mother of a John Graves Wyatt born Smithfield circa 1820.
Hampstead Road is Pancras/Marylebone area, Eagle Street (the first London address for the family 1823/1824 was about a mile away from Smithfield). The family don't seem to be have been there very long or have any real connection with the actual Smithfield market area.
There is a John Wyatt born Islip circa 1800 visiting in Dudley Worcestershire on the 1851 census. He was a baker. As he was visiting his age may have been given inaccurately.
Regards
Valda
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John Greaves WYETT was baptised 24 November 1841 St John, Horsleydown, Surrey - an adult, born 18 October 1818.
So am I going to be able to trace him back further? There is no mention of his parents on his baptism. He's not sure whether his father was Jeremiah or William.
Any suggestions welcome. ;)
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Hi
Though it is an adult baptism it is still significant he doesn't name his parents. Regardless of the age of the person being baptised and I have a baptism where the person was in their 60s, the parents were named. It leads to the conclusion he wasn't really sure who his parents were, however if that was the case you wouldn't expect him to be so specific about his date of birth.
1841 census HO107 1087/7 folio 36
Bermondsey Street St John Horseleydown Southwark
John Wyatt 22 Hair Dresser not born Surrey
Abel Berry 18 Hair Dresser not born Surrey
John Hill 15 Hair Dresser's Apprentice born Surrey
Regards
Valda
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It leads to the conclusion he wasn't really sure who his parents were
Valda
Thanks for your help again, Valda. :D
I was afraid of that.
I've searched for a long time for this record.
He was baptised a week before his marriage in Low Pudsey, Yorkshire (where he claimed to be living :-\).
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Hi
In fairness the sentence continued
.....'however if that was the case you wouldn't expect him to be so specific about his date of birth.'
which might mean that it was his father he wasn't sure about, not his mother.
Regards
Valda
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I will keep searching but he's not made it easy for me. >:(